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  1. #1
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    Any Cloud Provider that does Vertical Dynamic Scaling?

    Hi

    I would like to know if there are providers out that there that offers cloud platforms that are capable of doing vertial autoscaling that does not require reboots.

    This means that instead of scaling out horizontally (creating new instances) is it possible to scale the resources like CPU, RAM, network, etc without rebooting the server ?

    Thanks
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  2. #2
    I don't know of any, you would need to distribute everything or use some sort of single system image system like openssi or openmosix. As for the distribute everything you could do this but as of right now Linux can't, it can sort of but not really with commodity hardware. Someone may prove me wrong though.

  3. #3
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    I recall reading somewhere that Citrix Xenserver does vertical scaling?
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by polarisie View Post
    I recall reading somewhere that Citrix Xenserver does vertical scaling?
    It will up to the limits of the host node... I don't know of any solution that dynamically scales a single instance beyond that.
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  5. #5
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    You can do this on OnApp based clouds for sure. But it would be limited to max the node's resources.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by chennaihomie View Post
    You can do this on OnApp based clouds for sure. But it would be limited to max the node's resources.
    Do you know if OnApp does an inplace/same server scale up or does it do via a live Migration to an alternate hardware with processing power? And when the resources utilization drops is it able to vertically scale down?

    Cheers
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by polarisie View Post
    Do you know if OnApp does an inplace/same server scale up or does it do via a live Migration to an alternate hardware with processing power? And when the resources utilization drops is it able to vertically scale down?

    Cheers
    It will do the dynamic scaling on the same node if it detects enough resources for it, if it does not, then it looks for a node that does, initiates a live migration of the VM to the said node and dynamically scales it then.

    And yes, scale down is also possible, in that case the Vm will be kept on the current node.
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  8. #8
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    Why not do an SLA LAMP stack? You can scale one of those well beyond the limits of one node, and it only depends on traffic from the load balancer (which can also be made redundant).

    In AppLogic, you can set your application to turn on a new instance of the server when your first server(s) hit a certain pre-set capacity (say 80% of optimal load), and then scale back when resources are no longer in use (say when load is less than 20% of optimal on each web server). Works beautifully.
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  9. #9
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    Hi Brent

    What you described sounds like classic Horizontal scaling. In order to take advantage of this the application would have to be architected to support this.

    However, with vertical scaling you could technically move any traditional app to the cloud without changes in code and have that scaled up and down (but ultimately limited by the underlying hardware)

    Cheers
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRego3D View Post
    It will do the dynamic scaling on the same node if it detects enough resources for it, if it does not, then it looks for a node that does, initiates a live migration of the VM to the said node and dynamically scales it then.

    And yes, scale down is also possible, in that case the Vm will be kept on the current node.
    Carlos

    As a cloud provider can this option be configured and set as a billable action ? Meaning can we bill the client if he/she would like to scale upwards (vertically) ? Are there any specific metrics for this?

    Cheers
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  11. #11
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    Yes, technically it is horizontal scaling. Vertical scaling beyond one node is just not possible until you get node interconnect speeds much much higher (even prototype 80Gb/s Infinniband would not be enough because the latencies would be too high to allow for RAM reads/writes between the nodes in a reasonable time).

    This is a technical problem, and one that I forsee not going away at least in the next 5-10 years).
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by polarisie View Post
    Hi

    I would like to know if there are providers out that there that offers cloud platforms that are capable of doing vertial autoscaling that does not require reboots.

    This means that instead of scaling out horizontally (creating new instances) is it possible to scale the resources like CPU, RAM, network, etc without rebooting the server ?

    Thanks
    Cloud is NOT a real cloud if it does not "vertical scale". With Microsoft's DDTK + System Center + Hyer-V technology combination you can build cloud infrastructure that can scale horizontal or vertical without the need of reboot or downtime. I suggest you search for Microsoft partners for such a cloud.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by polarisie View Post
    Carlos

    As a cloud provider can this option be configured and set as a billable action ? Meaning can we bill the client if he/she would like to scale upwards (vertically) ? Are there any specific metrics for this?

    Cheers
    yup, OnApp takes care of billing of the scaled resources automatically.


    Quote Originally Posted by brentpresley View Post
    In AppLogic, you can set your application to turn on a new instance of the server when your first server(s) hit a certain pre-set capacity (say 80% of optimal load), and then scale back when resources are no longer in use (say when load is less than 20% of optimal on each web server). Works beautifully.
    ya, OnApp does that as well. We work with two types of autoscaling.

    1) Scale UP
    Basically adds resources to the single as needed. OnApp keeps a tally of the usage and ensures your clients are charged for the extra resourced utilised during scaling. Scaling is typically without reboots (windows does not like this).

    2) Scale OUT
    When scaling out is enabled OnApp will keep an eye on your VM and grow it as much as possible within the confinement of a single physical server. And then add another physical server based on a clone of the first one or a defined template. OnApp's integrated Loadbalancer will take care of the distribution of traffic.


    Quote Originally Posted by polarisie View Post
    What you described sounds like classic Horizontal scaling. In order to take advantage of this the application would have to be architected to support this.

    However, with vertical scaling you could technically move any traditional app to the cloud without changes in code and have that scaled up and down (but ultimately limited by the underlying hardware)

    Cheers
    Well, typically, in scale OUT (horizontal scaling) clients would have a setup with a DB cluster and they are aiming to add webservers as needed using the autoscaling features.
    I guess this could be the same setup in AppLogic.


    D
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
    OnApp.com + Cloud.net & CDN.net

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifewithcause View Post
    Cloud is NOT a real cloud if it does not "vertical scale". With Microsoft's DDTK + System Center + Hyer-V technology combination you can build cloud infrastructure that can scale horizontal or vertical without the need of reboot or downtime. I suggest you search for Microsoft partners for such a cloud.
    Thank you for that bit of information. Will look into it laer.

    However in practical terms, I am not quite so sure as to how the MS combination would handle vertical scaling from an IaaS perspective (i.e Amazon EC2 type of platform) but I can understand how this can be done from a PaaS perspective which is already available in Azure. Even their latest(beta) addition of VMRole is actually a Paas on a IaaS.

    In addition from what i understand the underlying Microsoft operating system only has support for features like hot CPU/RAM add with no option of HOT remove without requiring a reboot which would make vertical scaling down difficult. So technically i don't see how they would scale in place. The only option would be to live migrate the instance to another node and vice versa for scaling down.

    Ps: Diagonal scaling would be a nice option (scale up and then out)

    Cheers
    Last edited by polarisie; 05-11-2011 at 04:16 AM.
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  15. #15
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    If I'm not mistaken, I think that Xen is able to scale vertically as well. Not too sure about the rebooting part of it but I'll check.
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  16. #16
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    Most everything can scale up to a certain degree, what matters I think is the clients needs and how much vertical scaling is necessary. Is this a high-profile website or application that is running on a lot of servers now whether on or off the Cloud? Or is this still a small website that can be handled on one physical server. If this is a large site that needs the capabilities far beyond that of a single physical server then you need a Clustered environment whether on or off the Cloud. As Brent has stated technology limitations do not allow memory sharing across a single physical node to achieve one "super size" OS instance. Whether grid, cloud, or no matter the software technology everything "scales out" if you will. Someday that would be great if that can happen, but currently no one is planning for that day and we're (providers) now able to scale out but in a better way than was once done off the Cloud.

    So now an intelligently designed large scale Cloud Cluster will allow you to vertically scale beyond a single server dynamically by way of scale OUT, the same that is done off the Cloud in a traditional Cluster except there's more automation, simplification, hardware saturation, a lower entry level pricing, and all without requiring the need of full reboots/downtime of the app, and so on. For large scale sites this is the route many of them are taking as they make better use of the hardware, space, and facilities they currently utilize as well as increase uptime, redundancy and fault-tolerance, and efficiency of management of the environment. It's that win-win for the provider, and the consumer.

    Some provider's are simply better at building this out than others due to the high level of integration, prioritizing, and other elements that the provider would need to architect from that the application of the end user would have a direct result in. Clusters are very dynamic in nature and consists of many elements so there's many variables as to what will ensure a proper fit. So what I would say is if you are a consumer looking for this level of hosting then interview potential candidates who are experienced in this class of hosting as it is at a level far above single individual servers and requires a lot more experience to really do this well.

  17. #17
    Our platform does this as standard, for example, when you run an OS template that has Kernel support for the hot add/remove of CPU, ram etc.

    The only caveat is disks - which need the system to be shutdown and the disk unmounted before a resize or disk add/remove.

    Otherwise, adding CPUs and RAM on the fly to a running server actually works really well and is a great way to react to a big load spike!
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  18. #18
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    I think it depends on the VM actually being in PV mode or not. Some OS won't just 'hotplug' CPUs, RAM or Disk. Correct me if i'm wrong, but with onApp you can only do it with CentOS based templates.

  19. #19
    Our platform (onapp) can hot add to CentOS (5.5 and 5.6) CloudLinux, Gentoo and Windows 2008 Server.
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  20. #20
    I'm interested in this automatic scaling up as well. OnApp is for hosts and I checked some of their clients but don't see which one support/advertise this functionality specifically. I used VPS.net/100TB (really unreliable, not recommended) and the nodes cannot scale automatically. So OnApp, let me know which of your clients actually offer this functionality to retail clients. Or there are other hosts/vendors that support this, please mention
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 123finder.com View Post
    I'm interested in this automatic scaling up as well. OnApp is for hosts and I checked some of their clients but don't see which one support/advertise this functionality specifically. I used VPS.net/100TB (really unreliable, not recommended) and the nodes cannot scale automatically. So OnApp, let me know which of your clients actually offer this functionality to retail clients. Or there are other hosts/vendors that support this, please mention
    We can automatically scale, but you need to opt in for the Server Density service for $7.50 a month. Server Density is a tool that monitors the RAM, CPU and Disk Utilization, and once it they reach a threshold defined by you, it'll automatically add additional resources.

  22. #22
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    Autoscaling is based on monitoring. Once the monitoring is in place, autoscaling can be provided by any host running the OnApp platform

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 123finder.com View Post
    I'm interested in this automatic scaling up as well. OnApp is for hosts and I checked some of their clients but don't see which one support/advertise this functionality specifically. I used VPS.net/100TB (really unreliable, not recommended) and the nodes cannot scale automatically. So OnApp, let me know which of your clients actually offer this functionality to retail clients. Or there are other hosts/vendors that support this, please mention
    sure, like mentioned here in the thread, Dediserve and VPS.NET can do it. I know guys like GMOcloud and Zunicore.com (peer1) actively features autoscaling (both horizontal and vertical).

    In fact, vertical scaling is probably implemented with a large number of OnApp hosts. A lot of our clients also feature horizontal scaling (which is the tricky part honestly).


    D
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
    OnApp.com + Cloud.net & CDN.net

  24. #24
    amason ec2 i think but the name is diffrent

  25. #25
    FireHost.com VDS's support Auto Scale. Not cheap, though.

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