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  1. #1
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    Cloud Linux and Better Linux

    When I configured my shared hosting server a couple of months ago I went with Cloud Linux. It was recommended by several folks nice enough to respond to my newbie post. I have come across another called Better Linux which seems very similar.

    I seldom see mention of either in post these days, does anyone else use these packages? If yes, are they cutting down on your user issues on shared hosting in regards to resource usage?

  2. #2
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    Each one has their pros and cons. You would need to use the one you feel better suits your needs.

  3. #3
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    I had posted in a Better Linux thread asking if they had some of the same security features as Cloud Linux and didn't get a response and I don't see anything in the documentation either so a +1 to Cloud Linux on that.


    So out of both I'd simply stick with Cloud Linux. You are likely going to have both the owners here saying their implementation to restrict resources is better or more efficient but as long as it works as intended, stick with what you are using now. If you ever need server management, it's also easier to get someone to support Cloux Linux at this point in time.

    If it's not broke, don't fix it

  4. #4
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    As above, CL is from cPanel, so support and integration will be more efficient at this point in time.
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  5. #5
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    I never had any problem with cloudlinux , and I like what techJr said that if its not broken now why fix it? I never heard about better linux but if people say its good and dose the job then I may want to try it one day but for now I'm staying with my Cloud Linux

  6. #6
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    Betterlinux still in beta also nt integrated with any panel like (Cpanel ,DA). I am using cloudlinux last 6month without any problem and their support team is very helpful .

  7. #7
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    CloudLinux is simply way ahead and has extremely active development. Yum updates coming almost weekly and also new features like IO restrictions and CageFS. Outstanding product.
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  8. #8
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    I not a fan of either, bastardizing and then commerializing the kernel to clean up the misconfiguration of cpanel.. These are my views only and some people have pointed out that it is a solution to a very real world problem, which is true to an extent, so there you have it (thats about as diplomatic as you'll see me)

    To the original question, I would select CloudLinux, they have a better line of communication with the community, i.e. [eventually] following the spirit of GPL and releasing the source RPMS for lve, despite arguably some risk from their perspective. BetterLinux on the other hand have built a shim/proxy that utilizes the explicit gpl functions and re-exports them so they dont have to release their code, it a very questionable practice in terms of legitimatcy, but the breaking of the spirit is clear. Before anyone perks up that there is loads of closed source software for Linux.., I dont have a problem with that, but certain functionality is so deeply tied to the kernel that the kernel developers consider it a derived product (you cant argue with the people that write the kernel in the first plae) and thus falling in GPL, they even go as far to name these functions with gpl include _do_something_deep_gpl etc.. Hence the contention..
    Last edited by MattF; 09-27-2012 at 05:19 AM.
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  9. #9
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    Arrow

    I would second this. CL is very active and stable. BetterLinux have a lot to catchup.

    Quote Originally Posted by NexDog View Post
    CloudLinux is simply way ahead and has extremely active development. Yum updates coming almost weekly and also new features like IO restrictions and CageFS. Outstanding product.
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  10. #10
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    Support for CloudLinux is top notch. I opened a ticket tonight at 9:22PM EST about an issue with my lvestats service, it wasn't critical so I set it for "Normal" priority (2 business day SLA within business hours). I had a response in 3 minutes and a resolution in under an hour (20-30 minutes was them waiting for me to setup the SSH key to give them access). Not only was the problem resolved but they provided details on what was wrong and how they fixed it (it was a problem with my SQLite package). They also posted in the ticket to inform me about a pending reboot for the latest kernel on that server, which I knew about, but was a nice touch on their part.
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  11. #11
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    I'd definitely stick with Cloud Linux. There're too many positive plans for the kernel, so there's a lot to look forward to. I've heard about Better Linux, but not enough to be persuaded to hop in and give it a test drive.
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  12. #12
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    Another +1 for CloudLinux
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  13. #13
    Good day:

    +1 for CloudLinux.

    Thank you.
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  14. #14
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    I donīt have experience with BetterLinux yet, but I did test Cloud Linux and their customer care is excellent as well.

    By the way what is this trend to call Linux to everything you add to an operating system?

    Its like making a backup software that installs in Linux and call it BackupLinux.

    Neither of them are full Linux distributions. They just modify an existent system. Also believe or not, they do not tell the whole true about their systems either. They work for apache dynamic process, like for example .php, but not for everything else. .html not, images passing via apache not, email, ftp, databases, etc.

    Basically they just try to work with current tools that already exist in Apache like suexec.

    Going back to the issue, I think CloudLinux is better for hosts currently as its proven in allot of working services and companies. So not only it will be better in terms of stability but its a proven product already. This is why BetterLinux is offering theirs for free, because nobody would pay for a product that is untested in productive servers.

    There is also Hive if you want to take a look.

  15. #15
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    Stick with CL.

    It is not just the optimization but they also focus on security side.

    On another note, the new CL6 with IO support is really cool.

    Specially 4 U
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by nibb View Post
    Also believe or not, they do not tell the whole true about their systems either. They work for apache dynamic process, like for example .php, but not for everything else. .html not, images passing via apache not, email, ftp, databases, etc.

    <snip>

    This is why BetterLinux is offering theirs for free, because nobody would pay for a product that is untested in productive servers.

    Actually, BetterLinux comes with an Apache module that allows the system to blame everything sent through Apache on the proper user, and throttle them accordingly. There is also a hook in mysql that will allow the same tracking and limiting. There is bandwidth throttling, connection limiting, and even a security environment.

    Also, this is all running on more than 2000 production servers. It is fairly well tested.

    The Beta period isn't for working out bugs in the core functionality, but with the packaging, configuration, etc, to make it easy for everyone to install, use, and track.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by alligosh View Post
    Actually, BetterLinux comes with an Apache module that allows the system to blame everything sent through Apache on the proper user, and throttle them accordingly. There is also a hook in mysql that will allow the same tracking and limiting. There is bandwidth throttling, connection limiting, and even a security environment.

    Also, this is all running on more than 2000 production servers. It is fairly well tested.

    The Beta period isn't for working out bugs in the core functionality, but with the packaging, configuration, etc, to make it easy for everyone to install, use, and track.
    I honestly don't think so. It seems you just registered to post this. Why I say this?

    Well, because its pretty much impossible to calculate static content that passes by apache. The processing is so fast with todays CPU that is not only easy to do but its negligible. A hit would be like 0,0000000000001% cpu load to the point you would generate more load just by trying to measure this.

    So, no, I honestly donīt so. Im very sure it does the same Cloud Linux does, which is catching dynamic process in memory, like PHP, CGI, etc. And usually this works only with running it in CGI and usually in suexec to track back to the user. This is nothing new. I recently had a decent discussion with Igor from Cloud Linux about this. And he is just one of the smartest people available. If there was a way to do it, he would had implemented it already. Then again nobody needs this. Static content is so fast that you don't need to measure it. Its PHP and databases that causes load and for this Cloud Linux works.

    Actually for databases there is also no need. With some MYSQL lik Maria or Percona, tools like this are basically build in. If im wrong and Better Linux indeed take isolate/measure absolutely every single hit that goes to Apache, regardless of content, then please count me and as I will be the first one to use it and promote it.

    When you mean 2,000 servers? Where did you got that data? I think it would be very interesting to know. I donīt care about promotion, if a product is good I welcome it and everyone should, but lets try to post things with facts or at least some basic evidence.

  18. #18
    I apologize if said anything contentious, it was not my intention to argue or to cause problems, just to present information.

    Full disclosure, I have been a sys admin for over 15 years, worked for Bluehost for five of those and currently work for Betterlinux. The product has been in service for several years, and Matt has not hidden that fact, nor even who is using it.

    Calculating static content is not impossible, nor is tracking shared databases, but they were some of the harder issues to fix in shared hosting, and continue to cause a lot of issues. Single connections are fast, but thousands of them can add up. That doesn't even count the people that have large download files and get popular. We track them and deal with them because they can cause problems.

    Almost everything in BetterLinux has come from issues found in a large hosting company, without any solutions. We couldn't find them, so we created them.

    It really is a good product and does things that nobody else can come close to.

    Oh, and Maria and Percona have very good user tracking. We have added some of their stuff into our Mysql build. We have also added the IO and CPU throttling, which neither Maria nor Percona has.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by alligosh View Post
    I apologize if said anything contentious, it was not my intention to argue or to cause problems, just to present information.

    Full disclosure, I have been a sys admin for over 15 years, worked for Bluehost for five of those and currently work for Betterlinux. The product has been in service for several years, and Matt has not hidden that fact, nor even who is using it.

    Calculating static content is not impossible, nor is tracking shared databases, but they were some of the harder issues to fix in shared hosting, and continue to cause a lot of issues. Single connections are fast, but thousands of them can add up. That doesn't even count the people that have large download files and get popular. We track them and deal with them because they can cause problems.

    Almost everything in BetterLinux has come from issues found in a large hosting company, without any solutions. We couldn't find them, so we created them.

    It really is a good product and does things that nobody else can come close to.

    Oh, and Maria and Percona have very good user tracking. We have added some of their stuff into our Mysql build. We have also added the IO and CPU throttling, which neither Maria nor Percona has.
    I made a post in my forum making a basic comparison of Cloud Linux vs Hive. Maybe you can add some to it.

    I did not tested Better Linux yet but I will.

    What I want, and I think would be a dream is to be able to actually measure and isolate every single process and request from the user. Most things are just basic cgi mods modified. Even Cloud Linux with all its kernel fancy stuff, actually relies on mods and plugins to do its job. Not to mention the kernel and isolation has none effect on email, FTP, and basically everything else a user can do. Just imagine a user making a full cPanel backup, that causes load as well. Or users with allot of email accounts.

    The idea of having this for Apache is nice. But even like this, you said exactly the same point I had. Most say that static content is so fast that its not worth at all to take into measure. But I had the same point you had. If you happen to have thousands of connections to the same static content, the picture is quite different. This can be a single image but that would still cause some nice load.

  20. #20
    Next week we will have a better installer, as well as cpanel automation. We are working on an integrated cpanel statistics page, but it is still a few weeks off.

    BetterLinux can track and throttle any process that runs as a user, whether that is email, ftp, php, tar, gzip, etc. It can also be setup to handle processes by name, in groups or individually. The cpanel automation will be good for most people, but there are tons of customizations that can be done as well.

    I look forward to you're testing it and am interested in reading your results.

  21. #21
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    Does it use cgroups?

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by nibb View Post
    Does it use cgroups?
    Yes, we utilize cgroups for IO throttling. We have actually contributed a lot to them over the past few years to get them to work the way they currently do.

    We also have a daemon that monitors the users and updates cgroups multiple times a second to maximize server resources. Just putting them into a cgroup is not good enough. We allow customers to use the resources on the server, and automatically throttle them up and down so they play nice with others. A customer should be able to use the resources of an idle server, and only be restricted when other customers need resources as well.

    Of course, if you would rather, you can restrict individuals to whatever specifics you want.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by alligosh View Post
    Yes, we utilize cgroups for IO throttling. We have actually contributed a lot to them over the past few years to get them to work the way they currently do.

    We also have a daemon that monitors the users and updates cgroups multiple times a second to maximize server resources. Just putting them into a cgroup is not good enough. We allow customers to use the resources on the server, and automatically throttle them up and down so they play nice with others. A customer should be able to use the resources of an idle server, and only be restricted when other customers need resources as well.

    Of course, if you would rather, you can restrict individuals to whatever specifics you want.
    One of the things I don't like about Cloud Linux is the isolation, slowing of process because they are in queue. Thats just my personal opinion, but I really prefer a hard error vs slowing down the whole account. A direct error like "cpu maxed" or something similar.

    Im interesting to know something about BL (Better Linux)

    1. How picky is it about measuring resources on a client account? Can it actually read the exact memory used on each request, CPU, or I/O or its just a rounded number based on the whole serve usage?

    With what services can it work and which what it canīt work? Basically lets talk like if we were 5 year olds. Will it work with 10,000 hits on a .exe download? Will it work on a massive email list pushing the webmail server?

    What are the planned prices per server once it's rolled out. Just a more or less, nothing exactly as I understand that is not probably something planned yet.

    Does it modify kernel or OS files in order that it loses compatibility with standard linux packages and configurations? I understand the magick is done by modifying stuff, but this just adds another layer of configuration system administrator have to deal now, in particular when things are not playing nice with other things in Linux that were never designed to work in servers that are that much changed in configuration.

    The thing with this system is that they seems nice and cheap for a couple of servers, but the more you add the more the costs keep adding up. Its quite expensive per year if you count all things providers are already paying extra per server.

  24. #24
    It actually tracks the exact usage per process on IO and CPU, and updates the userland daemon several times per second (that time is also configurable, although in general there is no reason to change it).

    These are not containers like OpenVZ, but an active tracking and throttling system that watches just about everything, and does it efficiently, too.

    It will work with 10,000 exe downloads and blame the right user. It will work on a massive email list as long as the app is run as the user and not root (like dovecot, courier, sendmail, mailman, etc), or you configure throttling specifically for that app.

    If you use an alternate web server (nginx, litespeed) it cannot track web activity that does not run as the user, as that is done with an Apache module. Of course, you can configure Apache to use worker and suphp to be every bit as fast as those others (a discussion for a different day).

    The kernel modifications are mostly for reporting to the BetterLinux daemons. Most sysadmin work is the configuration of the BetterLinux system, and not that of the main OS. Exceptions to that are things like linux tc for bandwidth throttling which will be normal sysadmin work with some BL bits for added functionality. We have tried hard to leave centos as centos, debian as debian, etc. (only centos6 is current, other distros are in the works; functionality is there, but packaging, installers, etc, need work)

    I do not know what pricing we are settling on, but I have been told that it will be "competitive". As a sysadmin, though, I can tell you that any number I have heard thrown around would easily be worth it to add 10%, 20%, or even 50% more users onto a server, as that is 10%, 20% or 50% less server costs compared to adding more servers.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by alligosh View Post
    It actually tracks the exact usage per process on IO and CPU, and updates the userland daemon several times per second (that time is also configurable, although in general there is no reason to change it).

    These are not containers like OpenVZ, but an active tracking and throttling system that watches just about everything, and does it efficiently, too.

    It will work with 10,000 exe downloads and blame the right user. It will work on a massive email list as long as the app is run as the user and not root (like dovecot, courier, sendmail, mailman, etc), or you configure throttling specifically for that app.

    If you use an alternate web server (nginx, litespeed) it cannot track web activity that does not run as the user, as that is done with an Apache module. Of course, you can configure Apache to use worker and suphp to be every bit as fast as those others (a discussion for a different day).

    The kernel modifications are mostly for reporting to the BetterLinux daemons. Most sysadmin work is the configuration of the BetterLinux system, and not that of the main OS. Exceptions to that are things like linux tc for bandwidth throttling which will be normal sysadmin work with some BL bits for added functionality. We have tried hard to leave centos as centos, debian as debian, etc. (only centos6 is current, other distros are in the works; functionality is there, but packaging, installers, etc, need work)

    I do not know what pricing we are settling on, but I have been told that it will be "competitive". As a sysadmin, though, I can tell you that any number I have heard thrown around would easily be worth it to add 10%, 20%, or even 50% more users onto a server, as that is 10%, 20% or 50% less server costs compared to adding more servers.
    Thanks for sharing. I did go to the website some weeks ago and I could not find too much documentation. I guess that is coming soon.

    Maybe I have to give it a shoot in my lab testing. But things like this are better tested under load actually and I would need to generate some fake loading, users, traffic, etc. Maybe next month...

    I know Cloudlinux points out as marketing to put more customers into servers which you also mentioned. In my case and I think allot of other possible customers its not more customers per server, because honestly hardware has fixed limits and no software can change that, but its about the quality of users. What you do not want is one user using 30% of the server while the rest use almost none.

    I know for a fact that some users must probably hate this things, because they are now tracked on the spot when they are using just too much but for providers I think its great, as you indeed be sure when a client is not designed for shared anymore. Its a hard line currently as nobody has a real standard on what is enough or what is too little. Its a nightmare actually and this is why the marketing is so heavy. More controlled resources means better use of idle power, which of course means more profit per servers. So yes of course this products make sense.

    It's nice to have alternatives as well and what's even more interesting is that all 3 of this systems do the things completely different which is nice as they are truly not just copying each other. Maybe we can run all 3 together

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