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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Lynnwood, WA
    Posts
    438
    English is not their first language, it would seem, based on the responses you posted earlier. I also just noticed this:

    6.9 hours at $145 per hour Time billed is after two hours admin. The amount here is at our cost and have paid
    the contractor. The time includes Michaels admin time built in.

    Perhaps the reason he cannot provide you with a better breakdown is that nobody there did the work/knows any better than you do how long it should take?

    Honestly your response to him combined with your not having paid the invoice yet would I imagine elicit a 'huh' response from me as well, although 7 (9? he mentions '2 hours' built-in before the 6.9 hours being billed for) hours to reload an OS, do a recompile of PHP with some additional mods, set the system up and restore your backup does seem about 2-4 hours too high.

  2. #27
    Thank you so much you guys. This is really helpful. Ultimately, I am going to have to make some tough decisions that could have profound impacts on my business.

    NexSeven - I appreciate your honest and candid responses. As I said, I am not looking to be vindicated as much as just get it straight whether this is acceptable business practices in the hosting arena.

    Just to be clear, the invoice as of this moment is about 48 hours old. It is not something I have been sitting on for months or weeks.

    In pushing for a detailed explanation, it seems I have upset him and received the following response:

    Here is what I have as date stamp and info. This doesn't include our time trying to fight and detect what was happening that would be your free two hours before I called you and left a voicemail. This also doesn't include the temp work during the reload and the PHP and apache server side recompiles as stated in our Paypal invoice for time unfortunately at my cost.

    This is the time frame of The Planet and the console and reload time. First ticket shows outage from load as we can't ssh in we ask for a hard reboot via console. Then we can take the back in out control and look and see what is happening. The rest moving upwards to the last date time stamp.


    START
    Keith E. - Friday January 4th, 2008; 6:53 PM CST
    Thanks for the update, your server drives will be setup as follow

    sda
    /boot 100MB
    swap 2GB
    / 1 --grow

    sdb
    Marked for preservation
    END
    Nathan H. - Saturday January 5th, 2008; 3:52 AM CST
    The OS reload has completed and the server is now back online and ready for use. If you need any further assistance, please let us know via a new ticket.


    ----------

    05 JAN 2008 03:42 AM (S)
    05 JAN 2008 03:42 AM CLOSED
    Server Provisioning (1 of 0)
    05 JAN 2008 03:42 AM (S)
    05 JAN 2008 03:42 AM CLOSED
    Provision Gold Services
    05 JAN 2008 03:42 AM
    05 JAN 2008 03:42 AM
    OS Reload: XXXXX
    05 JAN 2008 01:31 AM
    05 JAN 2008 03:42 AM
    4493117PLNT OS Reload: XXXXX
    ===========
    Hardware Name : XXXXX
    Location info : Tile : BG23 (Tile)

    Operating System: Red Hat Enterprise Linux, Version 4
    Comments : cPanel/Fantastico/urchin

    Special Requests or Comments: If you check my past setup tickets and my setup has a non allocated VAR and HOME, so it can grow without restrictions. The only allocated or partitioned is ROOT.

    Please do not touch any data on backup drive. Please add the secondary drive into FSTAB and mount the secondary drive.

    Have a good afternoon,
    XXXXX

    Server drives will be setup as follow

    sda
    /boot 100MB
    swap 2GB
    / 1 --grow

    sdb
    Marked for preservation
    04 JAN 2008 06:02 PM (P)
    06 JAN 2008 11:26 PM
    4493072PLNT REBOOT REQUEST:
    04 JAN 2008 05:21 PM (P)
    04 JAN 2008 05:37 PM
    4492479PLNT OUTAGE:
    04 JAN 2008 01:08 PM (P)
    04 JAN 2008 03:54 PM

    The server went up to a very high load and started turning off services. I wondering if could be a DOS but that would be unlikely.
    I looked into it and it seems that the internal mailer is increasing hard, so you know better than me but this seems like a exploit on a send mail
    or php () allowed variable. It all points to X-Cart imho. The client is not available by phone, so we need to save his server, so I need you to work with me now.
    Call me asap, I will call and alert you as well.

    ---------------------------


    Well, I spent way to much time with email over all of this. So lets just get this done as we both have more important things to do, than correspond back and forth via email.

    You can get insulted in business as well and if you have no idea, After all these emails what we have done in the past for you and what we need to do in case of an emergency, then I have nothing else to say as it will be mute. We got your back when it was needed and now we need to play games that are really just of no importance. I should have left your site down until I heard back from you and gotten permission, but to save data from our TOS we can use authority to save the clients businesses if they are unreachable and now we are in a small email argument about if I have been over charged and in a a payment disagreement. I have pulled the plug on servers for less than this as it is business principle.

    O.k, I am done typing.

    Thanks & Have a good day!


    Alright hosts. Is this really legal? Can he just shut me down because I am questioning a bill? Yikes. This is the kind of thing I have nightmares about. The server had gone down at noon on Friday the 4th and the host was contacted within minutes of the crash, if that helps with the timeline at all.

    Thank you all again for your time. I have read though all of this info, but honestly it is greek to me. While the host does speak perfect English as a first language, he types quickly.

    I, on the other hand, no speaky sever talk....so all of this is Greek. Is this a satisfactory explanation of what happened? Would it be acceptable to you?

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Lynnwood, WA
    Posts
    438
    Alright hosts. Is this really legal? Can he just shut me down because I am questioning a bill? Yikes.

    For any of a number of reasons, he can likely turn you off. And yes, yikes.

    Is this a satisfactory explanation of what happened? Would it be acceptable to you?

    No, it would not be. YMMV.

    However, the minute a host mentions that he would have 'normally pulled the plug by now', you know what? Immediately back up your data to your home computer, and then look into getting a new host.

    Strong-arming and making veiled threats to your own customers, geez.

    Just my $.02.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Detroit, MI
    Posts
    1,962
    Quote Originally Posted by photo4u2 View Post
    Surely there is some sort of industry standard.
    There are no industry standards. Make no assumptions.



    Kind Regards,

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    398
    Quote Originally Posted by photo4u2 View Post
    Alright hosts. Is this really legal? Can he just shut me down because I am questioning a bill? Yikes. This is the kind of thing I have nightmares about.
    Can he? Sure. Is it ethical? Not at all. It sounds like it's time to find a new provider, a new admin, and primarily to get a good backup of *all* of your data before you contact him again. Ensuring your site stays online until you can transition to another provider should be your primary concern right now.

    I, on the other hand, no speaky sever talk....so all of this is Greek. Is this a satisfactory explanation of what happened? Would it be acceptable to you?
    Absolutely not acceptable. He needs to have his plug pulled, and by that I mean the money you send him every month. You can find plenty of providers who will treat you with substantially more respect.

  6. #31
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    5,105
    photo4u2,

    Call him up and explain that you just don't understand everything that went into it and that you were just looking to satisfy yourself that it was appropriate, which you have.

    You have been wit this company for 4 years and from all accounts received excellent service. They did recover you from a mess and even though you may think 12 hours is too long, to troubleshoot and recover it is totally reasonable as are $145/hour charges for senior technical help.

    You are not being a customer from hell but you are not being ripped off. It sounds like your provider is saying.. look we have acted in good faith to get you back up and running and because we didn't get approval to bring you back online you are now questioning it. Estimates on how long to fix things are unlike the auto service industry not always very accurate unless you know exactly what the issue is and what the fix is.

    Just negotiate from here what the protocol should be in the future if there are any problems.
    CloudNexus Technology Services
    Managed Services

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN
    Posts
    1,225
    Just one think I wanted to throw out there.

    he said he billed you at his cost..in other words he only charged you for the amount The Planet charged him. As a customer of The Planet myself, I don't see what his problem is with showing you the invoice. All he has to do is go to the accounting portal in the planets control panel, and pull him the invoice for admin services from TP then copy paste or whatever.

    Secondly:

    TP Admin service fee is only $75/hour

  8. #33
    Sound advice on all sides. Thank you for taking the time to help me with this issue as I had no idea where to go for advice.

    I think I will just pay the invoice and look for a new host. While $1000 does sting, we would loose more by being unavailable to our clients.

    Just one think I wanted to throw out there.

    he said he billed you at his cost..in other words he only charged you for the amount The Planet charged him. As a customer of The Planet myself, I don't see what his problem is with showing you the invoice. All he has to do is go to the accounting portal in the planets control panel, and pull him the invoice for admin services from TP then copy paste or whatever.

    Secondly:

    TP Admin service fee is only $75/hour
    According to the host a level 3 admin that he works with regularly did most of the work. The planet only did the resets and whatever else they do. The person that did the work may be just an internet acquaintance of his or a truly qualified admin. That, I will just have to take his word on.

    Again, thanks to everyone who took the time to diagnose this for me. I realize if any of you bill out for $145 per hour, I would owe you a hefty chunk right now too. Do know that this helps me a great deal.

  9. #34
    From what you have stated in this thread, you have a special arrangement with your hosting provider which might warrant the actual price you are paying. Minus the special arrangement on the web development side, considering that this provider is very effective in supporting you and seems to be quite dependable with the exception of the downtime which you have suffered I would say that the price is not that far-fetched for what you are getting, but you can definitely find hosting providers which would compete for your business and beat the price providing you with exceptional service and support.
    data center directory - The comprehensive data center resource. Version 2.0 coming soon!

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by NexSeven View Post
    [COLOR="Blue"]

    However, the minute a host mentions that he would have 'normally pulled the plug by now', you know what? Immediately back up your data to your home computer, and then look into getting a new host.
    100% agreed on this. When it comes to your business this is not something you want to take chances on. They would be able to do this and you would not be able to get the datacenter to get you plugged back in. You need OFF SITE backups, somewhere other than that server or one under control of your host. If what you posted was your entire line of questioning, and this invoice is just a few days old, I can't see how your questions were unreasonable. I certainly think their reaction is both unprofessional and worrisome. For the price you are paying you should not have an expectation of a firewall, at least not a separate physical firewall, but some of your past admin time could have been used to configure the builtin firewall 'iptables' on your system. This likely would be something you need to request, and that to me isn't unreasonable, that it is off/unconfigured by default unless requested.

    Someone mentioned that The Planet admin fee is $75 and hour. This is not true. Or at least it is not the standard fee, and I have never heard of an exception to their admin fee to be $150 an hour and no less than 1 hour minimum. They also do not touch customer data, so they aren't the ones that restored your site.

    I do find your hosts initial reaction to the problem itself, from how it sounds in this thread, was quite good. I don't know about smaller hosts, but larger hosts I am familliar with would never start any recovery efforts without permission or at least some sort of pre-established escalation procedures for such problems. Its a liability issue if they mishandle your data and lose it when they performed work on your data without authorization.

    I would like to say, I have mixed feelings about your host, so I can understand why you would. On the bad side, I would say first and foremost is the attitude. Secondly, and this is MY preference, I would not go with any host that had to contract out what was mentioned in this thread about work performed. Some people are ok with this, I can see how this *could* lend your host a bit of flexibility. I'd stick with someone that could handle such tasks in house...well actually I would do it myself, but you know what I am getting at. I also would say that the time involved as far as actual work seems high to me for what was done, but not so much that I feel you are being taken advantage of, and if they contracted out all this, they do have to make up what they spent. The good side, I mentioned above, I am impressed that they initiated action without your approval. I also say that 4 years of pretty much being happy with them says something about them. The way he talked about what he 'should have done' I can't say I would consider staying except long enough to move smoothly...and make backups yourself, off that server NOW.

    -Mike

  11. #36
    Everyone has been very helpful.

    End result:

    I paid the invoice, backed up everything on my machine and am starting the research for a new hosting company. I too am left with mixed feelings and I told my host that I don't feel good about the entire situation. Even after much prodding, he would not supply me with any meaty information that could be verified by another source.

    Bottom line though, we would loose more money by being shut down...not to mention what it will do to our business reputation. Painful lesson, but not worth the chance of what could happen if I push harder.

    Thanks again. This is a difficult subject to grasp for those of us on the outside, but still having a pony in the race.

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Posts
    2,979
    Thanks for coming back and letting us know how it ended, and for soliciting our opinions in the first place. I guess you know what questions to ask and what to get in writing while looking for your next host. Good luck.
    -Mark Adams
    www.bitserve.com - Secure Michigan web hosting for your business.
    Only host still offering a full money back uptime guarantee and prorated refunds.
    Offering advanced server management and security incident response!

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    6,957
    Did you agree to the $145 an hour fee beforehand, was it part of your hosting agreement or part of any other agreement? If not, I don't see why you should pay that much. Honestly, $1000+ to do an OS reinstall and restore from a backup is ridiculous, especially for a dedicated server, it's not like it is colo, where you're generally completely on your own. I would assume with that price at least some management would be included, but it seems it is not. Whether you decide to pay the full amount or not I would definitely recommend looking elsewhere, or what will be the charge next time you have an issue?

    Note: I know I came in a bit late, but overall, it does seem that simple. I am glad you decided to pay the bill, I would have as well, as uptime is more important than that, at least to me, but as I say above, you should definitely look at going elsewhere.
    Last edited by KarlZimmer; 01-10-2008 at 11:22 PM.
    Karl Zimmerman - Founder & CEO of Steadfast
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  14. #39
    We have no written TOS or contract to fall back on. Both of us agree that is the primary source of our problem. We both feel mistreated and abused because there was nothing in writing to cover this scenario.

    What he has explained is that he charges what he pays for the server + $200 - $300 per month for maintenance. He maintains that includes things like updating cpanel and behind the scenes stuff, but not a emergency situation such as this.

    I don't notice $2 - $300 worth of work done each month, but some on this thread have indicated that there is a fair amount of work that I would not be aware of to keep a server up and running smoothly. Beats me...but that is the story I am getting.

  15. #40
    I'm going to agree with Karl here. That does seem egregious, especially if you're paying for fully managed service. It seems as though this guy is charging you and doing no work himself. If he's got a server at The Planet, and a tech who he calls in now and then, what are you paying him for?

    Actually, take a look at what Karl offers. Steadfast has a great reputation here in Chicago and they're quite affordable. I'd also consider WiredTree if I were you.

  16. #41
    Thank you. I appreciate any info on good, reputable hosting companies...as long as that will not get anyone in trouble with the rules of this forum.

    Everyone has been so helpful, the last thing I want to do is start something.

  17. #42
    Well, there is a difference between a fully managed server, and 2 hours of admin time per month in a package the way I see it. Fully managed should be just what it sounds like. 'Admin time', as I understand it from places I am experienced with, is you have 2 hours available (or whatever with your package) a month for your host to perform basic maintenance and administrative tasks for. These tasks would usually be per your request, Cpanel and the OS can and often are updated automatically. You have that time available to you with your package. If you do not use it, it is your loss for that month. Thats what I was referring to in my earlier post when I mentioned iptables and that you could have requested your admin time to configure some firewall rules on the server.

    -Mike

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    307
    Actually, take a look at what Karl offers. Steadfast has a great reputation here in Chicago and they're quite affordable. I'd also consider WiredTree if I were you.
    I use Steadfast for outside backup of all our data so I can at least confirm their support is good.

    << Removed >>
    Last edited by writespeak; 01-11-2008 at 01:27 PM.
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  19. #44
    It seams like that kind of a charge is bad busniess- my whole site was down for a day and I discovered that "someone" had hacked into their main data base and a force reset of all accounts was made... but they didn't charge me. This seams like the same thing happened to you, perhaps- but regardless that doesn't seam fair that they hit you with the bill for their problems. Did any legal work say you would be charged? That stinks to take a hit to busniess + the fee... sorry they did that. If I were you I would try to redo your contract so nextime you can't be charged for an outage.

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    767
    I would move to a larger hosting company, for $500 a month at Softlayer you can get a pretty nice server and a server on the private network with a RAID array for backups for the price you're paying now easily. Throw in managed hosting from an outsourced company and you should be fine.

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    301
    Interesting thread, I've read all of it, but I'm tired so I'll try to keep my response short:

    7 hours is a reasonable time to contact the datacenter, do a few reboots to test the waters, ask for a reload and then restore the backups. Although, $145 per hour seems very unreasonable.

    There's something known as billable time. It is the time spent by a person actually servicing a customer. If your admin had to wait 2-3 hours for an OS reload (I believe that this is the typical time for a reload at SL), he shouldn't charge you for that. And even less at such outrageous fees! I have a hard time believing that he was there for 2 hours constantly refreshing the ticket and staring at the screen to see if there was an update.

    Server management companies, where you pay $50 a month or around that, will usually do this "recovery" for free if you submit a ticket to them and say that the server is down. If you were my client, I also would only care about you being happy and not charging outrageous fees. Many hosts in this thread have expressed similar opinions. But, there are still people out there who are extremely strict and will charge you for something that is fun to do for the rest of us (I like the hosting industry and server administration).

    Anyhow, like I've mentioned, I don't know about the legality of this. Even more because you didn't have a contract with the company. After this incident, I would suggest you to backup your data, go learn a bit more about servers, and order a server and management company separately. It'll cost you less, and you should get better service.

  22. #47
    What I don't understnand is all this talk of recompiling and reinstallation of applications.

    Standard procedure for a restore is to load the base os and then layer the backup on top of it. Reboot. Done.

    The only time you have to get into all this other work is if the backups are incomplete. For example, if only data backups are available.

    If you are using imaging software, even the load of the base os is not needed. Just image the drive(s).

    The time to completely image a fully configured and working install of Win2k + SQL + Exchange + AD spread over 4 drives is 20 minutes.

    7 hours sounds like a complete hand build to me.

    Base loads of OS's in a big data center are often done by PXE boot loads. This is almost a hands off operation. It might take a while, but almost no manual work is involved. Just waiting for the load to complete.

    BTW, lot's of things that are a problem in email are not a problem on the phone.

    In any case, once the feathers have been smoothed down, I would still be looking to get out of there.

    He *might* have the right to pull the plug, but he does *not* have the right to alter your data, or deny you access to it. You own it. Of course, it is always best to have a backup in *your* possession. There are several techs for hire on WHT who you could hire to get that backup *immediately*.

    You own the data, but why bother getting into a position where you have to argue about it?
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