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  1. #26
    Hi

    do you know how we can setup a VPS on our dedicated server ?

  2. #27
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    Yeah, I'd be interested in learning that too...how do you setup VPS on a dedicated server?

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knownhost - J
    Test their sales email reply times as well support. First impressions show true colors.

    -Jay
    In my opinion sales reply times say nothing it all. Support does, of course.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehsanch
    Hi

    do you know how we can setup a VPS on our dedicated server ?
    For starters you need virtualization software, such as Virtuozzo, Xen, UML, VMware, FreeVPS, OpenVZ, or any other that I may have missed. Quite simply, if you don't know anything and don't have a huge amount of time to learn the technology, then don't even bother.

    If you need just one VPS the easiest thing to do is to simply get one from an established reputable provider. If you want to start offering VPS to your (potential) clients yourself while you don't know anything about the technology (and don't have enough money to hire people to hanlde this for you) then it might be an idea to resell the VPS's of a reputable provider. If done right, your end client will not be able to see that you are reselling the products of an other company.

    The above is the easiest way to get started and is pretty much risk-free, because if you would run your own servers you'll have to go through a lot before you are able to provide a reliable product to your clients.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc
    I mentioned VPS's on the same host server can each run a different Operating System. So could one VPS on the server run Windows, and another one Linux?
    No, that's not possible. It is however possible to run different Linux distributions on a Linux VPS server. For instance one VPS could be running Red Hat Enterprise, and another one could be running Debian.
    You guys at Dehe have been running Virtuozzo too much. Face the reality and understand you need to upgrade your knowledge, you know NOTHING about Xen.

    http://www.xensource.com

    IT IS possible to run different operating system on the same physical Hardware. It has been one year that it's possible to run NetBSD, FreeBSD and Linux with Xen 2.0, wa have some customer doing it.

    Since Xen 3.0 is out, it's also possible to run Windows and Linux on the same physical machine if you have a VT processor. Xen 3.0.2 seems quite stable now (older 3.0 was not), and VT enabled processors are getting cheaper everyday (it's now possible to get them for less than 250 USD).

    Thomas
    GPLHost:>_ open source hosting worldwide (I'm founder, CEO & official Debian Developer)
    Servers & our leading control panel and our Xen VPS hosting, which are already included in Debian and Ubuntu
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by gplhost
    You guys at Dehe have been running Virtuozzo too much. Face the reality and understand you need to upgrade your knowledge, you know NOTHING about Xen.
    Maybe you should face the reality and look at the timestamp on these posts. At the time of writing Xen 3 was not released yet.

  7. #32
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    Please accept my public appologies about what I said. I feel sorry. You are right, I should have seen the timestamp.

    Thomas
    GPLHost:>_ open source hosting worldwide (I'm founder, CEO & official Debian Developer)
    Servers & our leading control panel and our Xen VPS hosting, which are already included in Debian and Ubuntu
    Available in: Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Sydney, Seattle, Atlanta, Paris, London, Barcelona, Zurich, Israel

  8. #33
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    How hard is it to manage a VPS..?

    I've been with a shared-hosting since starting my first website couple of years ago, now..that I publish couple of busy MySQL driven websites, I need to concentrate more on the site contents and marketing rather than managing a server that I have lots to learn to..

    So what sort of maintanance do we need to do it on our own to get our VPS runs smoothly from times to times..?

  9. #34
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    Mainly, you have to upgrade your server regarding security. If you know about the security updates for windows, it's about the same...

    For the rest of, if you have a control panel to manage your site, it should be as easy as using your shared account, but with more freedom (you can install what you want on the server).

    Thomas
    GPLHost:>_ open source hosting worldwide (I'm founder, CEO & official Debian Developer)
    Servers & our leading control panel and our Xen VPS hosting, which are already included in Debian and Ubuntu
    Available in: Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Sydney, Seattle, Atlanta, Paris, London, Barcelona, Zurich, Israel

  10. #35
    That's quite helpful, even though I know it all it still is nice bit of information to back myself up.

    Good job.

  11. #36
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    Managed and unmanaged

    I am just trying to understand this. No plans to buy.

    I thought all vps were only managed servers because it is one physical box.

    Please add to this tutorial by correcting me if I am wrong.

    Colbyt

  12. #37
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    Even if there is one physical computer, there are many operating systems running at the same time. Each of them has it's own hard drive, memory, and IP address(es). It's just like if you were running totaly independant servers. So all of the operating systems on the server needs to be managed by somebody (and upgrades have to be made on all of them).

    Thomas
    GPLHost:>_ open source hosting worldwide (I'm founder, CEO & official Debian Developer)
    Servers & our leading control panel and our Xen VPS hosting, which are already included in Debian and Ubuntu
    Available in: Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Sydney, Seattle, Atlanta, Paris, London, Barcelona, Zurich, Israel

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc
    It appears many people find it hard to understand what VPS is and how it works, so I just thought I'd make a small effort to explain a littlebit.
    What indepence is there for MySQL database as far as space and simultaneous connections and such ?

    (I am thinking like for running poweful MySQL bases applications such as vBulletin forum and phpAdsNew banner rotation)

  14. #39
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    Each VPS has its own processes, just like on a dedicated server. Most providers limit the number of processes you can run on your VPS, but usually this is not the limiting factor (RAM or CPU is, usually). You also get a certain number of available sockets, which also varies from provider to provider. Each VPS comes with a certain amount of harddisk space, which is used to store everything, just like a dedicated server, ranging from system libraries (although those are often shared by the whole node) to public_html files to MySQL databases.

    So to answer your question in one sentence; in the aspects you are looking at a VPS, it'll be completely independent from all VPS's on the same server.

    If you are looking into hosting a forum with a lot (hundreds) of simultaneous connections, I'd recommend to ask the host for their exact limitations on sockets, processes, and things like that, so you can determine whether you won't hit the limits. I personally would never limit a VPS based on sockets for instance, as I find that somewhat unethical, we just limit factors such as RAM, and when a customer hits a limit such as sockets we usually just increase that limit. Now you might ask why we have a limit at all - that's for the sake of system safety, so that the system won't spin out of control in the event of an attack for instance.

    I hope that answers your question, it's always a bit complicated to explain something like this if you haven't worked with the technology before.

  15. #40
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    Very nice tutorial, very extensive good read!

  16. #41
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    Thanks for the tutorial Apoc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc
    I mentioned VPS's on the same host server can each run a different Operating System. So could one VPS on the server run Windows, and another one Linux?
    No, that's not possible. It is however possible to run different Linux distributions on a Linux VPS server. For instance one VPS could be running Red Hat Enterprise, and another one could be running Debian.
    Some Virtualisation software have this restriction but Vmware ESX server will happily run any operating systems side by side on the same server, not just linux.

  17. #42
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    How about the MIN RAM factor, how sure can you be that your provider is not overselling the RAM, i am no telling this because i have problems, but this is really a question that i have in mind.

    From what ive been reading this board , some people say that only Xen virtualization software can assure you that your provider is not overselling, but what about virtuozzo

    Thank you

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevNine
    Some Virtualisation software have this restriction but Vmware ESX server will happily run any operating systems side by side on the same server, not just linux.
    Yeah I'm aware of that, at the time I posted this tutorial that wasn't possible yet though (to the best of my knowledge).

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdogg
    How about the MIN RAM factor, how sure can you be that your provider is not overselling the RAM, i am no telling this because i have problems, but this is really a question that i have in mind.

    From what ive been reading this board , some people say that only Xen virtualization software can assure you that your provider is not overselling, but what about virtuozzo

    Thank you
    There is no way to be sure about that, that's where the host's reputation comes in. A host which oversells its guaranteed ram will (more) frequently get complaints/negative reviews about bad performance/failures than a host that doesn't.

    Needless to say, guaranteed ram should never be oversold (if the guarantee is oversold, there is no guarantee), but since it's technically possible to do so, certain companies will try to exploit that. Reputable companies know better than that

  20. #45
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    Hey André, nice explanations.

    What about CPU-power? Is it freezing the others when 1 VPS-user is taking 100% of it, or does the base system somehow regulates this into maximums and in a way guarantees each VPS minimum space for CPU load?

    Also; if there's that one 100 mbit NIC (usually there are two for redundancy), and a user is crossing VPS-es with huge traffic, so it goes from one VPS to the other on the same actual base server, what does the routing actually look like? Will it be rooted externally (first hop outside of server), or is the NIC sharing all of the IP-addresses at the same time in a way it will not take up the 100 mbit and route via the base OS's localhost?

    And if one VPS *is* using 100 mbit (it's not that hard to do these days), is any other traffic over it still guaranteed for the other VPS-es? Is there a minimum In/Out value set for that?

    I'm very fond of Ivan Barrera's bw_mod which does such things on the application level of Apache: http://ivn.cl/apache/ so I'm guessing Openvz (and the likes) also somehow guarantee bandwidth for each. I have used (and still use) bw_mod on some very busy webservers (with limited speed), where it really manages to secure bandwidth for smaller files, which is basically the most important thing on the internet, plus it assures each request with a minimum of for example 2 kB/s. They should have built that option IN httpd or lighttpd.

  21. #46
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    I can answer you about Xen, Andre might talk about VZ.

    With Xen, if a VPS takes 100% of the CPU while others are doing nothing, this VPS will have 100% of the CPU. If let's say you have 2 VPS taking 100% of the CPU, they will each get 50% of the total available.

    For bandwidth, it deals with the way Linux does it's network queuing. On the normal way, it's rather random. But if you set inteligent queuing with a scheduler (let's say CBQ which is the most simple one), then the packets will be prioritized and each VPS will have what it needs (well shared).

    For both CPU and Network, it's possible to set priorities and ratio. For network, it's also possible to set maximum values (while it's only possible to do so with lastest scheduler for CPU, if I'm not mistaking).

    Note that it's not very smart to give a VPS a maximum of let's say 50% of the CPU, because if it takes 4 seconds to do a calculation, then it will take 8, and finaly the overal CPU time taken will be the same. It's better to have all VPS go as fast as possible, and only do scheduling when there is not enough CPU for all.

    The most problem with VPS is in fact I/O. I know people are working on having a better I/O scheduler for Xen, and it's in fact much much needed as this is where you wait the most. Especialy, it's very bad when a VPS does a lot of swapping. We are currently working on trying to make a real time graphic like we did for CPU and Network, so we would be able to know who's taking the most I/O time. But unfortunatly, it's possible to have the information only on the lastest version of Xen (otherwise it falls back to the /proc per partitions stats, if the kernel module is in).

    I hope this will help you to understand a bit more what's beyond the scene.

    Thomas
    GPLHost:>_ open source hosting worldwide (I'm founder, CEO & official Debian Developer)
    Servers & our leading control panel and our Xen VPS hosting, which are already included in Debian and Ubuntu
    Available in: Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Sydney, Seattle, Atlanta, Paris, London, Barcelona, Zurich, Israel

  22. #47
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    I can't speak for all hosts here when it comes to CPU power, but I can explain how we (and most other Virtuozzo based hosts) do it:

    CPU regulation is based on CPU units, which are relative. For instance, we have a 3 VPS plans, the starter plan, business plan, and enterprise plan. The starter plan has 1000 CPU units, the business plan has 1500 CPU units and the enterprise plan has 2000 CPU units. Now if 2 Starter VPS's both try to use 100% CPU, it would be a 1000:1000 ratio, as both VPS's have 1000 CPU units. As such, each VPS will receive 50% of the total CPU capacity.

    Another example: 1 starter VPS and 1 enterprise VPS each try to use 100% CPU. The ratio is 1000:2000, so the starter VPS will receive 33% of the total CPU capacity, and the enterprise VPS 67%.

    Needless to say, the more VPS's that are active at the same time, the more complicated the math becomes, but that's something Virtuozzo takes care of. If 10 starter VPS's are trying to use 100% CPU, each of them will get 10% of the total capacity.

    It speaks for itself that the host will have to make sure to not place too many VPS's per server.

    As for the routing; I also can't speak for other hosts there, but we usually create a VLAN for a certain amount of servers, put a few /24's on those VLANs and then assign those IPs to the individual VPS's. Virtuozzo makes sure that customers cannot hijack eachothers' IPs within the VLAN.

    Our servers are connected with 2x gigabit NIC's to 2 (redundant) switches, and each VPS is capable of using a max of 100mbit each. So even if a VPS uses up all of the 100mbit, there's still 900mbit left.

    Limiting bandwidth on the application level is probably a good idea for shared hosting, I agree. I think the reason they haven't built this in Apache by default is that it's meant to be a generic daemon. It's not specifically intended for shared hosting, it can also be used for many other projects in which bandwidth limiting would be bogus.

  23. #48
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    Ultimate Purpose?

    I would like to question the real advantages of VPS?

    I understand that it offers a cheaper solution between a Reseller Account and a Dedicated server. This is one obvious benefit, providing a stepping stone. The whole privacy/security aspect is good, but is VPS an effecient approach? I mean ultimately VPS plans are used by individuals / businesses to have root access at a lower cost - which is usually to allow them to sell Reseller Accounts to their own clients on a budget. But this can be done with other software, such as WHMreseller for cPanel, which works out to also be a much cheaper option.

    While VPS gives excellent control, it also introduces much more complexity to the user, they need to be fully fledged server administrators. Also having so many Operating systems running simultaneously, duplicates tasks over and over again, eating up much more of the servers CPU & Memory, leaving less for the useful tasks (Apache, Mysql, etc). VPS software is also quite expensive for the Host Provider as it requires not only the VPS software itself but the purchasing on multiple Control Panel software licenses (such as VPS Cpanel licenses).

    Overall while I can see VPS has a lot to offer I also think its kinda messy with stacks of setting up required, has duplicated processes running (wastage), is generally expensive for the host and is probably more prone to ddos attacks. Sorry if this sounds negative, don't get me wrong its a brilliant idea, I guess I'm just weighing up the cost <-> to benefit ratio. The VPS software available (stuff thats any good) is too expensive in my opinion.
    Last edited by bjdea1; 01-04-2007 at 09:30 AM.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjdea1
    I would like to question the real advantages of VPS?

    I understand that it offers a cheaper solution between a Reseller Account and a Dedicated server. This is one obvious benefit, providing a stepping stone. The whole privacy/security aspect is good, but is VPS an effecient approach?
    Yes it is, very efficient. Each of the customer having access to separate partitions (LVM is often used), it's impossible to access files of another customer.

    Quote Originally Posted by bjdea1
    I mean ultimately VPS plans are used by individuals / businesses to have root access at a lower cost - which is usually to allow them to sell Reseller Accounts to their own clients on a budget. But this can be done with other software, such as WHMreseller for cPanel, which works out to also be a much cheaper option.
    You are considering only very specific options to use cPanel to do email and web hosting. Many uses VPSes to do differents things. I have in mind Asterisk VoIP server, IRC, Ruby On Rail, Python, backup MX & NS, and many other things that you cannot do with a cPanel account.

    Quote Originally Posted by bjdea1
    While VPS gives excellent control, it also introduces much more complexity to the user, they need to be fully fledged server administrators.
    If using a control panel, it's not that hard... but true it adds complexity for the final customer. Consider also that some customer switched from dedicated servers to VPS because they only need the root access and don't want to pay too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by bjdea1
    Also having so many Operating systems running simultaneously, duplicates tasks over and over again, eating up much more of the servers CPU & Memory, leaving less for the useful tasks (Apache, Mysql, etc).
    With modern virtualizations systems, it's as fast to run in a VPS than on the real hardware. In other words, the virtualization system don't add any overhead. Why do you think it uses more CPU then? For sure, more memory, but that's it. Having an operating system running takes virtualy no CPU if it does nothing. So only Apache, MySQL, etc. (like you said) will take some CPU.

    Quote Originally Posted by bjdea1
    VPS software is also quite expensive for the Host Provider as it requires not only the VPS software itself but the purchasing on multiple Control Panel software licenses (such as VPS Cpanel licenses).
    True if using Virtuozzo/Plesk. Not true if using Xen which is open source and some open source control panel for apache and the mail system. In that case there is no cost for software.

    Quote Originally Posted by bjdea1
    Overall while I can see VPS has a lot to offer I also think its kinda messy with stacks of setting up required, has duplicated processes running (wastage), is generally expensive for the host and is probably more prone to ddos attacks. Sorry if this sounds negative, don't get me wrong its a brilliant idea, I guess I'm just weighing up the cost <-> to benefit ratio. The VPS software available (stuff thats any good) is too expensive in my opinion.
    Xen is totaly free once again, seems you have only virtuozzo in mind. There is no waste in running multiple instance of Apache, in fact if doing so, many files will get cached on the memory instead of being loaded from the hard drive, so it will go faster if well managed. True a VPS server is quite expensive to buy at first (a lot of hard drive and memory), but at the end it's more profitable for a host in the long therms. The ratio cost <-> benefit is very good.

    Thomas
    GPLHost:>_ open source hosting worldwide (I'm founder, CEO & official Debian Developer)
    Servers & our leading control panel and our Xen VPS hosting, which are already included in Debian and Ubuntu
    Available in: Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Sydney, Seattle, Atlanta, Paris, London, Barcelona, Zurich, Israel

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjdea1
    I would like to question the real advantages of VPS?

    I understand that it offers a cheaper solution between a Reseller Account and a Dedicated server. This is one obvious benefit, providing a stepping stone. The whole privacy/security aspect is good, but is VPS an effecient approach? I mean ultimately VPS plans are used by individuals / businesses to have root access at a lower cost - which is usually to allow them to sell Reseller Accounts to their own clients on a budget. But this can be done with other software, such as WHMreseller for cPanel, which works out to also be a much cheaper option.

    While VPS gives excellent control, it also introduces much more complexity to the user, they need to be fully fledged server administrators. Also having so many Operating systems running simultaneously, duplicates tasks over and over again, eating up much more of the servers CPU & Memory, leaving less for the useful tasks (Apache, Mysql, etc). VPS software is also quite expensive for the Host Provider as it requires not only the VPS software itself but the purchasing on multiple Control Panel software licenses (such as VPS Cpanel licenses).

    Overall while I can see VPS has a lot to offer I also think its kinda messy with stacks of setting up required, has duplicated processes running (wastage), is generally expensive for the host and is probably more prone to ddos attacks. Sorry if this sounds negative, don't get me wrong its a brilliant idea, I guess I'm just weighing up the cost <-> to benefit ratio. The VPS software available (stuff thats any good) is too expensive in my opinion.

    Firstly, it's not necessary to be a fully fledged server administrator if you go with a host that offers a managed solution.

    There are countless benefits of a VPS solution:

    - With a quality host, your VPS will be hosted on an enterprise class server, with high-end RAID arrays, redundant power supplies, a true server motherboard, and so on. If you would get a dedicated server of the same price, you wouldn't get any of the reliability that you get with such a VPS.

    - As for the comparison with a reseller account; a reseller account shares all of its resources with all other reseller accounts on the same server. A VPS gets guaranteed resources, so even if an other VPS on the same server overloads, your VPS wouldn't be affected by that.

    - There are no Operating Systems running simultaniously, as all VPS's share the same kernel. Also OS libraries and processes are shared, at the host-layer of the system. This is done very efficiently by all popular virtualization software available. There aren't any duplicate processes running really, except for idle Apache daemons maybe.

    - A VPS is not more prone to DDoS attacks than a shared (reseller) hosting environment, actually it's the other way around. Since each VPS gets guaranteed resources, only the VPS that's being attacked will really be affected by it (of course it's a little different if the attack is huge - but that can also take down an entire network). On a shared hosting environment you don't get such isolation between accounts. If a reseller account gets attacked, all other reseller accounts on that server will be affected by it. Of course, a dedicated server offers even more isolation, but you can't get the high-end (reliability) servers specs that a VPS offers, in a dedicated server, at the same price of a VPS.

    So to sum it up, the main advantage is that you get an enterprise-grade hosting environment, which is completely isolated from other customers, at just a fraction of the costs of a complete (high-end) dedicated server.

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