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  1. #51
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    Mar 2008
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    agree with #40 and #48.

    service provision should be oriented to the need of both customer and provider, rather than one side.

    I saw here some providers deleted customer's account without backups and warnings firmly by the reasons they believe according to their tos. Tos can be modified by providers randomly in order to maximize their profit.

    what providers declares in tos is merely one-sided interest, and I don't think this kind of tos has the force and effect of law definitely. vps provisioning is a slight matter, no customer likes to take it seriously. that can be always manipulated by providers.

    you can say your contract means you agree with the tos, nobody forces customers to sign whatever. the reality is who have the rights to give the final explaination? who? only providers.

    for instance, the provider suspended an account with the reason of violation of pirate material, what is the parite material? can you define the pirate materail in your tos, if not, tos has no meaning, which couldnot be spoken clearly even in court.

    so, I think the mild atitude is giving the customers a warning and alerting, let them know they may have something "illigal" in hosting, deleting the account is the last step to take. in fact a lot of companies do things like this.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuer View Post
    agree with #40 and #48.

    service provision should be oriented to the need of both customer and provider, rather than one side.

    I saw here some providers deleted customer's account without backups and warnings firmly by the reasons they believe according to their tos. Tos can be modified by providers randomly in order to maximize their profit.

    what providers declares in tos is merely one-sided interest, and I don't think this kind of tos has the force and effect of law definitely. vps provisioning is a slight matter, no customer likes to take it seriously. that can be always manipulated by providers.

    you can say your contract means you agree with the tos, nobody forces customers to sign whatever. the reality is who have the rights to give the final explaination? who? only providers.

    for instance, the provider suspended an account with the reason of violation of pirate material, what is the parite material? can you define the pirate materail in your tos, if not, tos has no meaning, which couldnot be spoken clearly even in court.

    so, I think the mild atitude is giving the customers a warning and alerting, let them know they may have something "illigal" in hosting, deleting the account is the last step to take. in fact a lot of companies do things like this.
    well in america the police have told me the definition of pirateing or pirate

    # pirate - plagiarist: someone who uses another person's words or ideas as if they were his own
    # pirate - copy illegally; of published material
    'Copyright infringement (or copyright violation') is the unauthorized use of material that is covered by copyright law, in a manner that violates one of the copyright owner's exclusive rights, such as the right to reproduce or perform the copyrighted work, or to make derivative works.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkeden View Post
    well in america the police have told me the definition of pirateing or pirate

    # pirate - plagiarist: someone who uses another person's words or ideas as if they were his own
    # pirate - copy illegally; of published material
    'Copyright infringement (or copyright violation') is the unauthorized use of material that is covered by copyright law, in a manner that violates one of the copyright owner's exclusive rights, such as the right to reproduce or perform the copyrighted work, or to make derivative works.
    15 minutes later cant edit. and for the guy that said it should state what the companys version of pirating is. if the customer is not sure they should ask before buying
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  4. #54
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    eos3 & voiceofwisdom it seems strange you would join WHT just to post in this thread, anyways, welcome to WHT

    Mikezonline: "Month1" was the customer's first payment ever (ie. the signup). "Month2" was the invoice that was generated before the client put in the cancellation request. "Month3" was the invoice that was generated while the client still had not canceled per our TOS and had not yet been terminated due to non-payment.

    It all comes down to this: if you don't agree with the terms, don't say you do, and don't sign up. Don't say you agree with them and then come on a forum later to complain about them, especially when you never read them in the first place.

    In any event, you can make up all the hypothetical situations and straw man arguments you want about this situation. The facts and real situation have already been clearly laid out. This thread is way off course now and I won't be responding any further.
    Last edited by WebHosting Zac; 04-11-2009 at 06:24 PM.
    Zac Cogswell / CEI
    Formerly known as WiredTree Zac
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  5. #55
    WiredTree Zac, I firmly believe you are in the wrong. You clearly are hiding behind your TOS (knowing full well clients rarely read it) to get money out of someone that you don't need too.

    You're being rather unethical. As a show of good faith you should grant the user a full terminated contract and wipe away any owed "debts".

    Just because you wrote it in your TOS doesn't make it right. Rarely will client know the full breadth of your cancellation terms or the rest of your TOS for that matter, and it's "bad juju" to hold them liable.

    Good to know I can cross you off my list of potential VPS hosts.
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  6. #56
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethoshostingcom View Post
    WiredTree Zac, I firmly believe you are in the wrong. You clearly are hiding behind your TOS (knowing full well clients rarely read it) to get money out of someone that you don't need too.

    You're being rather unethical. As a show of good faith you should grant the user a full terminated contract and wipe away any owed "debts".

    Just because you wrote it in your TOS doesn't make it right. Rarely will client know the full breadth of your cancellation terms or the rest of your TOS for that matter, and it's "bad juju" to hold them liable.

    Good to know I can cross you off my list of potential VPS hosts.
    I don't understand, you're saying it's Zac's fault!
    It's by all means the client's fault if he didn't read the TOS, it's just like signing a contract without reading it then ask the contractor to show good faith and change it! And if the client wont read the TOS and dis-agree later with it and then ask the host not to follow it, then why bother writing it?

    The TOS and the SLA are the 2 most important things I check before signing up with a hosting company, it's like the contract between me and the hosting company. The SLA lets me know my rights, for example what guarantees I get for the uptime (what should I expect to get if there was downtime)? And the TOS lets me know what rights do the host have. If I dis-agree with them, then it's simple I wont sign-up with them.

    It's better to spend 15 minutes reading the TOS than spending days trying to solve a problem.

    About crossing WiredTree of your potential VPS hosts, trust me you're the loser not them.
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  7. #57
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
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    Currently - Warsaw
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    Quote Originally Posted by WiredTree Zac View Post
    "Month1" was the customer's first payment ever (ie. the signup). "Month2" was the invoice that was generated before the client put in the cancellation request. "Month3" was the invoice that was generated while the client still had not canceled per our TOS and had not yet been terminated due to non-payment.
    I can understand why you issued invoices for Month1 and Month2 but it's more difficult to justify the invoice for Month3. I know, it's OK according to your TOS but it just doesn't make sense.

    Why did you ignore the OPs cancellation request? Do you really have to apply the other strange rule stipulating that the cancellation request must not be submitted more than 30 days before the end of the service's billing cycle?

    You got the OP trapped - his cancellation request was submitted too late to avoid another charge and too early to take effect.

    A bit of a human approach instead of sticking to the letter of the TOS would be nice here.

    Marek
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  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by WiredTree Zac View Post
    "Month1" was the customer's first payment ever (ie. the signup). "Month2" was the invoice that was generated before the client put in the cancellation request. "Month3" was the invoice that was generated while the client still had not canceled per our TOS and had not yet been terminated due to non-payment.
    So you really generated also third month invoice? Wow, incredible. Two weeks ago I would say "good 1.st April joke" but now it doesn't seems like a joke. No need to respond on this of course, but it would be still highly recommendable to read atleast last sentence from poster (Bima) above and think about it.
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  9. #59
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    Chicago, IL
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    657
    I am posting this for clarification: the only reason he got the third invoice was because the invoice was automatically generated by our billing software since the procedure for removing his account for non-payment had not been finished when his invoice date came around. The reason it didn't complete is that the account holder had a billing ticket open with us discussing this issue. We don't expect him to pay the third invoice, it was just auto-generated by our system, and I thought that would be obvious since his service was suspended during that time. In a normal non-payment situation, it would not even be generated as the account would be terminated fully before the next invoice date came around.
    Last edited by WebHosting Zac; 04-12-2009 at 01:35 AM.
    Zac Cogswell / CEI
    Formerly known as WiredTree Zac
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  10. #60
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    5
    Testnic & Bima,
    I agree.

    To this extent, I just took my VPS biz to *ServInt*
    (thanks DavidJ- fellas talk about rapid provisioning! awesome!) WT was top 3 on my list, but handling of this customer issue was very disappointing. ;o(



    Zac,
    I hope you reconsider your policies on suspended/term account recurrent billing- stop the clock! Whether you expect the person to pay or not, invoicing additional months and penalty fees isn't right. WT currently has good overall reputation.




    Mike
    Last edited by Mikezonline; 04-12-2009 at 02:14 AM.
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  11. #61
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Houston, Texas, USA
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    3,262
    Quote Originally Posted by WiredTree Zac View Post
    Mikezonline: "Month1" was the customer's first payment ever (ie. the signup).
    Reasonable

    Quote Originally Posted by WiredTree Zac View Post
    "Month2" was the invoice that was generated before the client put in the cancellation request.
    Reasonable. Emphasis is mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by WiredTree Zac View Post
    "Month3" was the invoice that was generated while the client still had not canceled per our TOS and had not yet been terminated due to non-payment.
    Emphasis is mine again. And there's the contradiction.
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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikezonline View Post
    Testnic & Bima,
    I agree.

    To this extent, I just took my VPS biz to *ServInt*
    (thanks DavidJ- fellas talk about rapid provisioning! awesome!) WT was top 3 on my list, but handling of this customer issue was very disappointing. ;o(



    Zac,
    I hope you reconsider your policies on suspended/term account recurrent billing- stop the clock! Whether you expect the person to pay or not, invoicing additional months and penalty fees isn't right. WT currently has good overall reputation.




    Mike

    Does it really matter? HE ISN'T PAYING ANYWAYS, WHO CARES IF HE GETS BILLED.

    This topic went from a complaint, to an answer, to people venting about how WiredTree needs to change their policies.

    It's their choice, their business, and with their success, they must be doing something right.

    If people do not like the way they run their business, don't buy it. But please, PLEASE do not complain at a company you've never even looked into other then reading comments in a thread on a public forum.
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  13. #63
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    Seattle, WA
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    5
    Quote Originally Posted by mooseweb View Post
    Does it really matter? HE ISN'T PAYING ANYWAYS, WHO CARES IF HE GETS BILLED.
    Just because a customer has been tagged, doesn't mean a merchant can bill them for a service that wasn't requested. Think about it, that's false billing-- and false billing is fraud. To the extent that there is malicious intent, is considered illegal under Federal Criminal Law.

    I don't think WT wants to deceive or commit fraud, but that's why it matters. Willy nilly billing just because he's a no-pay is not right.



    Quote Originally Posted by mooseweb View Post
    If people do not like the way they run their business, don't buy it.
    You're right. That's what I did, others will too.
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  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Maars View Post
    Well Said, this is what is called a spider web

    I can guarantee that not even all hosts understand what's there in their TOS

    And to all the one who just hide behind their TOS, remember the law of the land is above your TOS

    If it comes under the court's perview, you may even face penality !

    Correct. You can also guarantee that the more lawyers have been involved in drafting a document, the more holes there are in a document. Ask any lawyer or judge.

    In the land of business 2.0, companies write business terms that sometimes seem a little bizarre. Think about the last time you dealt with bigcorp ltd.

    Now, in business 1.0, health clubs were the bad boys on the scene at one time. They got away with it for a long time. Locked in contracts, unilateral changes, surprise charges. You name it, it happened. Then, the bureaucrats and politicians got tired of having to listen to consumer complaints. After all, this took away time from their real work of feathering their nests.

    So, they gave a gift to health clubs. In many jurisdictions, health clubs now have special legislation just for them. Not perfect, but many of the worst practices are severely curtailed.

    They still try to put in special clause implying 30 days advance notice, yada, yada. But, as soon as a consumer in the know quotes the relevant section of the legistlation prohibiting or voiding the provision, the problem goes away

    Industries, who as a group, adopt practices that seem unreasonable to the public at large are just asking for regulation. Sometimes, that wish is granted.
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  15. #65
    it is unfortunate that wiredtree name is written throughout this whole thread. i personally don't have anything against wiredtree as a company. what i have much against are dodgy practices. if a client orders prepaid service than it should be valid during the time period for which he prepaid. if he didn't renew, cancel it but don't charge him ridicules fees. look at how mobile operator prepaid plans work. simple and efficient.

    if you were a client of some provider and provider changes his tos so you own them your house, would you just go "oh, it is in a tos? ok then, here are the keys". country laws, customer protection acts and other laws have precedence over tos. tos should have things like whether you allow irc or not, whether you allow 5-minute cron tasks or not, etc. (or you can put them in aup). i don't think providers should have any voice in enforcing customers for paying something they didn't use. even if your 7 days notice was legal in ethical sense it is plain wrong. i can't imagine going to the shop and being charged for something i didn't use just because they have a sign that states they are allowed to do so. i don't care about their (unlawful?) signs.

    @mooseweb
    if he had submitted cc info, he would have been billed. looking away just because op had luck in this particular case is not good

    basically:
    charge the customer only for the months he wants to be with you.
    if he wants to go away, he will go away. get over it.
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  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by WiredTree Zac View Post
    eos3 & voiceofwisdom it seems strange you would join WHT just to post in this thread, anyways, welcome to WHT

    ...
    Thanks for the welcome.

    I have actually been reading posts on this forum for years. I never created an account before because I never had a reason to post.

    When I read about the fact that you continued to bill the customer in months following the month that he informed you that he no-longer wanted the service, I felt the need to speak up. Not to support the customer but to make the point that this isn't ethical and may actually be illegal.

    If the continued billing after cancellation is simply a result of the technicalities of your billing system then that is understandable, but you didn't seem to see any problem with this earlier. I think it would be a good idea to alter your billing system so this doesn't happen in future.

    Other than the problematic billing system I have no reason to doubt that WireTree provides quality services to its customers. It's probably very rare for a situation like this to arise.
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethoshostingcom View Post
    WiredTree Zac, I firmly believe you are in the wrong. You clearly are hiding behind your TOS (knowing full well clients rarely read it) to get money out of someone that you don't need too.

    You're being rather unethical. As a show of good faith you should grant the user a full terminated contract and wipe away any owed "debts".

    Just because you wrote it in your TOS doesn't make it right. Rarely will client know the full breadth of your cancellation terms or the rest of your TOS for that matter, and it's "bad juju" to hold them liable.

    Good to know I can cross you off my list of potential VPS hosts.
    no its the clients fault if he checked the :I have read and agree to the Master Service Agreement.:

    you are saying you read it and you agree to follow it. this is basicly the first bad review for wiredtree. a friend had a discount from wired tree from not being able to pay 1 month. if they are willing to do that why would they be trying to steal money from someone
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  18. #68
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    I was told to consider the VPS offers posted here in a section below. I had a look and understood that the sticky ones were the providers most recommended. WiredTree was one of them (at least was a couple of weeks back). I was ready to sign up with them but someone told me their offer had expired but should come back soon.

    Now, this...

    Zac, TOS is to outline your service and protect you but not to spawn excuses for lack of common sense on your part. Someone wants to cancel, you canel and move to the next client. Instead, you keep billing the guy for a server that's suspended. To me, you guys look like a joke right now. You concentrate on blaming the client and thus, you're wasting time and losing on at least one opportunity. A serious provider would've handled this differently.

    Unleash, thanks for exposing this. I almost signed up with this provider.
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethoshostingcom View Post
    Good to know I can cross you off my list of potential VPS hosts.
    As if there are real alternatives to WiredTree.
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethoshostingcom View Post
    WiredTree Zac, I firmly believe you are in the wrong. You clearly are hiding behind your TOS (knowing full well clients rarely read it) to get money out of someone that you don't need too.

    You're being rather unethical. As a show of good faith you should grant the user a full terminated contract and wipe away any owed "debts".

    Just because you wrote it in your TOS doesn't make it right. Rarely will client know the full breadth of your cancellation terms or the rest of your TOS for that matter, and it's "bad juju" to hold them liable.

    Good to know I can cross you off my list of potential VPS hosts.
    If Zac does not follow his company's policies, won't the policies be as good as useless instead?

    It will be interesting if you can find a company of their size & reputation who will do as what you had mentioned. 99% of the time, only small new startups will bend their rules(to get as many clients as possible of course), while 99% of the established ones will abide their policies.
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooseweb View Post
    Does it really matter? HE ISN'T PAYING ANYWAYS, WHO CARES IF HE GETS BILLED.
    Its called spamming. You know being sent invoices for services you never received. I hear there are laws against that in some countries. Its also harassment. That tends to be illegal in most countries.
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  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by LaptopFreak View Post
    If Zac does not follow his company's policies, won't the policies be as good as useless instead?

    It will be interesting if you can find a company of their size & reputation who will do as what you had mentioned. 99% of the time, only small new startups will bend their rules(to get as many clients as possible of course), while 99% of the established ones will abide their policies.
    It's a bad policy anyways.

    Can you cite those statistics? Because I contest them.
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  23. #73
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    WOW. Talk about a lose-lose situation for all hosting companies who have TOS agreements. Your damned if you have one, and you are damned if you don't.

    Clarification:

    People on WHT expect hosting companies to have a TOS agreement, otherwise they consider them a fly-by company and can't trust them. This is probably because nobody wants to enter into services where the host can bring up additional charges/fees on their leasure time against your credit card.

    Now, Wiredtree has a TOS agreement to give all the clients a warm-fuzzy feeling that they are all looking for in a host. However, according to some of you they shouldn't "hide behind their TOS" and enforce it. I guess it comes back to "damn if you do" in having a TOS agreement, since it should be considered adjustable by some of you. For those of you who accuse companies in hiding behind their TOS, what exactly do you expect out of TOS, what is it that you want from it that will keep the company and you safe? Maybe this can help all of us companies unit and come up with some kind of standard so we aren't always "hiding behind the TOS"....



    ---Sorry for intruding, i'm not affiliated with Wiredtree in anyway. I just think it's silly for people to accuse a hosting company in hiding behind there TOS that everyone agreed to (Client and Host).
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  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy059 View Post
    WOW. Talk about a lose-lose situation for all hosting companies who have TOS agreements. Your damned if you have one, and you are damned if you don't.

    Clarification:

    People on WHT expect hosting companies to have a TOS agreement, otherwise they consider them a fly-by company and can't trust them. This is probably because nobody wants to enter into services where the host can bring up additional charges/fees on their leasure time against your credit card.

    Now, Wiredtree has a TOS agreement to give all the clients a warm-fuzzy feeling that they are all looking for in a host. However, according to some of you they shouldn't "hide behind their TOS" and enforce it. I guess it comes back to "damn if you do" have a TOS since it's worthless to people. For those of you who accuse companies of hiding behind their TOS, what exactly do you expect out of TOS, what is it that you want from it that will keep the company and you safe? Maybe this can help all of us companies unit and come up with some kind of standard so we aren't always "hiding behind the TOS"....



    ---Sorry for intruding, i'm not affiliated with Wiredtree in anyway. I just think it's silly for people to accuse a hosting company in hiding behind there TOS that everyone agreed to (Client and Host).
    And I hope someone points you to this post when they knock on your door asking you to move out, because in their terms of service they threw in the "We own your house" clause.

    Of course you thoroughly read every TOS before signing up for any service, and never late at night or lazily. Better yet, I'm sure you have a lawyer look over them for you.

    Just because it's in a TOS agreement and the client agrees to it doesn't mean it's right.
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  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethoshostingcom View Post
    And I hope someone points you to this post when they knock on your door asking you to move out, because in their terms of service they threw in the "We own your house" clause.

    Of course you thoroughly read every TOS before signing up for any service, and never late at night or lazily. Better yet, I'm sure you have a lawyer look over them for you.

    Just because it's in a TOS agreement and the client agrees to it doesn't mean it's right.
    Your right, there are contracts that are found to be unreasonable in court. I just don't think this is the right thread to come in and say their contracts are unreasonable since they are asking for a 7 day notice prior to invoice due date.

    I just think that the people venting about the unreasonable claims by Wiredtree are teenagers under 18 who have never had to sign a contract yet and don't understand what they are when they accept them online. It is THEN when they find out and get mad and come complain on WHT. In the real world there are penalties for breaking contracts, and there are contracts that require 45 days to years in advance notice if you are wanting to cancel. Then sometimes there are even penalties when you want to cancel!!!!! So is Wiredtree's 7 day notice cancellation unreasonable? No, you are....once you've seen and signed a real contract in the real world when you turn 18.


    EDIT: I guess in defense for the OP, if he is under 18 then there is not contract between the two of them and the OP can end it whenever he wants if under 18 by USA laws.
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