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  1. #51
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    Even if the OP had installed CSF prior to ordering server management, TP obviously uses CSF (and a custom configuration) as well as part of their server hardening service. Could they have simply removed their custom CSF configurations? Probably. At the same time, it's less than a two minute process to reinstall CSF, so I don't see the problem with just reinstalling and moving on.

  2. #52
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    According to The Planet's post before, that's exactly how it should have been, if CSF was previously installed. Their removal is supposed to only revert to it's original configuration before they touched it. Sounds like it was removed accidentally, as their records tell them they installed it...

    I would suggest The Planet considers leaving any open-sourced applications installed, removing only proprietary scripts and apps. Who cares if you leave a CSF config about?

    The on-going service has been canceled, so you won't be managing it. The customer can take over on-going support from that point. What it the harm in leaving open source software installed? It's not like you are out of pocket for anything. Even though I am a fan of Planet, that practice sounds a little "sour grape-ish" to me.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by mugo View Post
    According to The Planet's post before, that's exactly how it should have been, if CSF was previously installed. Their removal is supposed to only revert to it's original configuration before they touched it. Sounds like it was removed accidentally, as their records tell them they installed it...

    I would suggest The Planet considers leaving any open-sourced applications installed, removing only proprietary scripts and apps. Who cares if you leave a CSF config about?

    The on-going service has been canceled, so you won't be managing it. The customer can take over on-going support from that point. What it the harm in leaving open source software installed? It's not like you are out of pocket for anything. Even though I am a fan of Planet, that practice sounds a little "sour grape-ish" to me.
    That's just my point though. The Planet is providing a service -- including the use of CSF. They were hired to perform a recurring service -- which included adding CSF. When that recurring service is canceled, the tools they used -- open source or not -- should be removed. They spent the labor hours coming up with the proper CSF configuration and whatnot; the OP is not entitled to retain that configuration upon service cancellation. They have no idea what software was installed prior to their being hired, so it's not unreasonable for their tools to be uninstalled.

    Different scenario: I utilize Terminix's quarterly recurring pest prevention service for my house. When I cancel the service, should I expect them to give me all of their chemicals and tools they used to perform the service? Of course not.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by tws View Post
    That's just my point though. The Planet is providing a service -- including the use of CSF. They were hired to perform a recurring service -- which included adding CSF. When that recurring service is canceled, the tools they used -- open source or not -- should be removed. They spent the labor hours coming up with the proper CSF configuration and whatnot; the OP is not entitled to retain that configuration upon service cancellation. They have no idea what software was installed prior to their being hired, so it's not unreasonable for their tools to be uninstalled.

    Different scenario: I utilize Terminix's quarterly recurring pest prevention service for my house. When I cancel the service, should I expect them to give me all of their chemicals and tools they used to perform the service? Of course not.
    Change chemicals and tools to the chemicals already applied as this deals with something applied already prior to quitting. The OP isn't asking for the tools to install the stuff. he's asking that pre-existing stuff be left alone.
    Nothing here right now.

  5. #55
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    Well, grey area, but I would say remove prop. apps, leave open-source, unless there is some "secret" intellectal property, and that would also alleviate the issue of accidentally uninstalling something and doing damage in the long run.
    Why no err on the side of the customer? That's always been my rule. (And I've been round even longer than TP)

    I understand it's a "service" but, if it had been a one time install and config, and CSF was applied, we have to agree there is no big harm in leaving that, configed or not.

    Granted, I'm not in-the-know of the custom config The Planet applies, but unless there was some industry secret at stake, I'd even go as far as giving the customer a choice.
    Leave CSF and take over self-managed, or uninstall and start over?
    Maybe a script that reverts to a very basic config, taking out any real intellectual property knowledge that may be considered proprietary.

    Just trying to bring up options TP may consider...uninstalling open-sourced software has always been a grey area in my admin life. Even when I was juggling thousands of clients, I took time to ask. and worked with them, especially if it may harm their overall service in the end. And, for 6 years we had a 50% customer *return* ratio, because they just didn't get service like we provided when they thought they were getting a "deal" elsewhere. And they told two people, and so on, and so on. Treating customers kindly and with care may take more time, but you can simply not buy that sort of advertising.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by tws View Post

    Different scenario: I utilize Terminix's quarterly recurring pest prevention service for my house. When I cancel the service, should I expect them to give me all of their chemicals and tools they used to perform the service? Of course not.
    Actually, the scenario in question would be more akin to Terminix coming and washing the chemicals from your house, and flushing out any termite treatments they may have done upon canceled service.

    I would expect them to just stop coming to my home. I can then start buying my own bug spray.
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  7. #57
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    Jun 2005
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    We also had a server managed by Touch Support, which was then transferred to The Planet's AS team. The support wasn't even remotely helpful with nearly any issue. After they managed to bring our server down for more than a few hours due to their patching and updates not quite going correctly. They also tried to login after the service was canceled but our new server admin had already removed their ssh key.

    It was a very sad day when we got news of the transfer from Touch Support to them. We'd been with Touch Support for 2.5 years at that point. The moral of this story is to find a management company who you can trust.
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  8. #58
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    Hey

    FYI Touchsupport are back www.touchsupport.com new owners but same support guys.

  9. #59
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    CyberHostPro: who are the new owners? not the planet i take it?
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  10. #60
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    Without completing lying about what happened, ThePlanet would most likely win that chargeback case. As they did in fact do what they were paid to do, which was secure your server. Anything after that would be negligence on ThePlanet's part from what the OP said. That is his opinion, not necessarily mine by the way.

    If I was a provider I would re-think how I would end a service contract. There are a lot of scripts and programs that need registration keys, or have ways to check a central server if the software is valid. Going into a server and removing software opens up a HUGE liability.

    What happens if ThePlanet accidentely deletes valuable sensitive data that is quite expensive. Wouldn't that open up the company to a possible lawsuit?

    I would think they would setup a cPanel type of service, where they can easily disable any features without having to delete any files. That IMHO, is a very good way to get sued.
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  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by KHazard View Post
    I don't understand what you're trying to say here. The services provided are administered with tools and resources ... When the services are no longer requested, the tools and resources (being agents of maintenance for the service) are removed. A customer pays for the active administration of the service, not the tools used in that administration.

    As a representative of a company that provides the option to pay for a one-time server hardening service, you are likely to have a fundamental disagreement with that position, and I can respect that. If a customer were interested in that kind of setup on one of our servers, it would be approached as one-time server administration work rather than a recurring service.

    By approaching it in this way, if a customer just wanted the tools, one of our system administrators can install tools, tweak the security setting and hand over the keys for the customer to manage and update personally (and nothing would ever be deprovisioned), but that's a different kind of product than the managed security service we're talking about here.

    To my knowledge, vendor updates are not rolled back, and the primary cause of concern in the thread is the removal of a single third-party, open source firewall tool that our system shows we installed ... not the multiple resources/configurations implied. If I've misread that or am off-base, I apologize.
    I think I have to take side on what Kevin said.

    You pay for an active service, not for the tools. If someone wanted only the job done on the server and then leave it would be a one time management fee. Its another type of service.
    This makes complete sense because their management packages are very low priced. Why they are low priced? Because its a recurring service for several months. Other way most people would sign up for 1 month and once they have all the management done they would cancel it and bye, bye.
    I dont say this is related to the OP starter but it does make sense from a business point of view. We launched someo promotions in the past similar for recurring services and people just abuse promotions. They order it and move along instead of keep using the service. Promotions normally are abused in some way.
    If they have a fixed price for management service I cannot imagine how many people would only order when ever they need it. I suppose this is new. Its Humans as a Service....
    Of course most management services dont reverse changes. But that depends on each service.
    I mean, its not actually bad from a business point of view. I think its even fair. You pay for an active service, you cancel it and they remove their tools or customizations. Is it fair? Not sure. People could still make a backup and thats it.

  12. #62
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    Oct 2003
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    UK
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    guys

    it gets better! not! because i did not let the planet uninstall my firewall I have been charged $142 to my card! i only found this today when I got my bank statement.

    The Planet say I will be charged until they again have root access to my server!

  13. #63
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    Sep 2005
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    You are still using the firewall installed by them.

    They should think that hackers run way when they see that the firewall is installed by them. So they charge extra.

    Good luck with them.

    PYDOT
    I think that are saying that is ok to deceive persons.

    You just have cost when you do service in the servers.
    Usually you have costs when you install the server.

    You have some people that do this for 30 usd or so and never touch your server again. I will not discuss the quality but is like that.

    Some providers do install same special tools together with their service.
    For instance if someone install Nagios and have a server to monitor your server it is normal that they stop the monotoring after the service is over.

    The normal time for a server being tried to be accessed after it has been connected can be just a matter of hours.
    I am on the planet page and i don´t see a clear page stating their prices or this kind of pratice.
    I don´t agree with it but i can defend it if it was stated clearly.

    Do you think it is ok to force someone to have a lost of service for days just because you want to earn some extra cash ?.

    The low priced management prices don´t force people to do bad things to clients.

  14. #64
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    Oct 2003
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    UK
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    Hi

    I had installed & managed configserv long before them! Infact for many years before they had access to my servers!

    I was with them (previous TS) for about 2 years, its not like I was with them for a month they have made penty of money out of me, $145 month for 2 years, you would think they would not be so difficult!

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberHostPro View Post
    guys

    it gets better! not! because i did not let the planet uninstall my firewall I have been charged $142 to my card! i only found this today when I got my bank statement.

    The Planet say I will be charged until they again have root access to my server!
    Well now you have ample proof, go contact a lawyer for some legal advice. Print out all documents and proof so they can't just "throw them away and pretend nothing happened".
    Nothing here right now.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stroh View Post
    Well now you have ample proof, go contact a lawyer for some legal advice. Print out all documents and proof so they can't just "throw them away and pretend nothing happened".
    Did that earlier, printed the ticket of as the bank needed it faxed to them to do the chargeback.

    Got legal advise, Lawyers in the floor above us in our office block. There happy to take on our case for free for all the freebie IT services they got from me and my team
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  17. #67
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    All of this over a few config files. Come on TP there isn't a whole lot to configuring CSF and you do not own the software or the configuration files on the server that you are contracted to maintain. As a matter of fact cyberhostpro own's those config files that you "modified" during your maintenance contract.

    I would think that unless you enter into some type of lease/rental arrangement with someone you dont have the right to access their equipment once they have terminated services and you certainly dont have the right reverse the services that you provided during the contract period. They paid you for labor, not for software.

    This is why I moved all of our servers out of TP, they are childish when it comes to customer service and business relationships.

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by CyberHostPro View Post
    guys

    it gets better! not! because i did not let the planet uninstall my firewall I have been charged $142 to my card! i only found this today when I got my bank statement.

    The Planet say I will be charged until they again have root access to my server!
    Is this real? Thats ransom.

    I would like to hear TP story as I dont think they would do this. All you have to do is chargeback.

    Is there something maybe we dont know? Did you signed an agreement on the managed services? What does it say about cancelations?

  19. #69
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    Ridiculous policy, unfortunately you should have read it before signing up to save yourself the trouble of dealing with such a childish company.

    Imagine if an employee went back into your servers and undid everything he/she has done for the company since they were employed when they get fired. Sounds ridiculous right?

    Stop trying to hold customers hostage!

  20. #70
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    It's funny how all of the people attacking TP do not offer server management services themselves. The OP agreed to their terms and is now pouting that TP is enforcing them. Grow up, seriously. If you didn't like what you were agreeing to on signup, you should not have signed up with them.
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  21. #71
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    Lar, do you have some vested interest in this? If we were server management companies then you would be complaining that we shouldn't be trying to steal customers in this thread.

    We are customers, we are voicing our opinion of the services and policies provided by TP in this open community thread.

    What do you think this forum is for?

  22. #72
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    May 2006
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    1,426
    Wow that is way gay. They went in and removed CSF a FREE open source software because you cancelled with them. That is absolutely crazy. Those are not THEIR services, they are yours. CSF is a daemon, it does its own work, no one at the planet had to sit there and do anything with it.

    Simply outrageous, Id sue someone over that. I would assume nearly all management companies would never do such a thing, never. I would understand if it was some proprietary software but then they could have just cancelled the key/license or whatever.

    I believe this Op, I believe the screenshots. That is pure gayness at it's best. How can someone get any more vindictive over a cancel? With a company like the planet you would assume they get tons of signups and cancels per day why bother with taking revenge on people who cancel your services? That is what 15-16 year old kiddie hosts do, not big networks like the planet. Simply amazing... I don't know what else to say but wow, that's gay .

    And what is this security package they speak of? What copyrighted software of their's do they install?

    UPDATE: On threads like this, there is always someone like "that's your fault for not reading terms, etc" But who in their right mind would expect something like this? I guess now a days it is a good idea to read all company's terms in full to see what kind of loophole crap they pull on you. Anyone defending terms like this most likely has some loophole terms of their own. Loophole terms meaning something a client would never expect and a way for the company to rip them off or not give them what they paid for.
    Last edited by jon-f; 08-06-2009 at 02:25 PM.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by larwilliams View Post
    It's funny how all of the people attacking TP do not offer server management services themselves. The OP agreed to their terms and is now pouting that TP is enforcing them. Grow up, seriously. If you didn't like what you were agreeing to on signup, you should not have signed up with them.
    Actually from what I read, he didn't voluntarily go with TP, he was just forced to TP after they bought out his management company.

    Last year when theplanet aquired touchsupport some of our linux servers we have managed by them were moved to the planet.
    Nothing here right now.

  24. #74
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    Guys dont let Larwilliams deter you from posting in this thread.

    The more people that stand up and say that this is not OK the better off the industry will be as a whole. TP should take notice and adjust accordingly.

  25. #75
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    May 2005
    Location
    Houston, TX
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    The exact message communicated following the most charge is quoted below:

    It appears the cause of the charge for the security package is because we have been unable to complete the processing of your security package cancellation due to the lack of access to the root account of your server as noted in the update in this ticket at Thursday July 30th, 2009; 11:17 AM CDT.

    We installed tools as part of the security package. To complete the cancellation of your security packages, we need to remove those tools. To do so, we require root level access on the server. Please update the root login credentials for your servers so that we can remove our security tools and complete the security package cancellation. Once we have been unable to remove the tools, we can forward the ticket to billing to adjust the billing to reflect the cancellation.
    This message has been consistent throughout the communication: the servers supported by The Planet were receiving a recurring service. The changes made to the server and the tools used on the server were a part of that service ... one of your servers has our proprietary scripts and software (beyond the CSF configuration that is at the heart of this long-running ticket).

    In the open cancellation ticket in our system (which, contrary to the claims this post, you are still able to access and update), it has been made clear that the intent of the uninstall is to remove our custom tools and scripts ... this is not about removing your firewall. If CSF were installed previous to the addition of the services, the config file would be rolled back to the original and you would be exactly where you were when you started.

    Looking deeper into the tickets and going back into the legacy support communication, it's clear that you acknowledged that we installed CSF on your servers and that your previous firewall configuration was on an APF, not CSF.

    In fact, here is the bash output from the Touch Support ticket where we installed CSF on one of the servers in question:

    52 #
    53 ls
    54 cd apf
    55 ls
    56 apf
    57 csf
    58 uname -a
    59 history
    60 cd /usr/local/src
    61 wget http://www.configserver.com/free/csf.tgz
    62 tar -zxvf csf.tgz
    63 cd csf
    64 ./install.
    65 ./install.sh
    This thread is predicated upon the insistence that CSF was configured over a long period of time before the help of Touch Support. The outrage was that we did not even roll back to this initial configuration. In actuality, our automated system did exactly as it was supposed to and uninstalled what it installed.

    Whether or not the tools should be left for the customer's use after the cancellation of a recurring service is an issue that will likely continue to be a disagreement. Other hosts may avoid this concern by charging a higher up-front/setup costs which cover the costs of the tools themselves, then charging a lower amount for the continued servicing of/with the tools.

    Our services are not set up that way ... as I mentioned in a previous post, if a customer is interested "owning" in the tools and configurations we use when securing and hardening a server, that is handled through one-off server administration, installing and tweaking the configurations to meet the current needs (though not including the continuous upkeep required for effective security). Our advanced services do not incur high up-front costs ... for a security setup, you're paying $40/mo. Half an hour of admin time is $62.50. The first monthly payment of the security package would be the equivalent of 19.2 minutes of admin time ... which is far less than what is actually used to set up, configure and tweak the system ... without the uninstall policy, a customer could sign up for one month of security, cancel the next day and have hundreds of dollars of work performed for $40.
    Last edited by KHazard; 08-06-2009 at 03:03 PM.
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