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  1. #76
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    Of course not everything could be exactly as forecast.

    However giving their customer base 0 notice in advance could only mean somewhere along the line they missed some critical calculations.

    If they needed to increase their prices ASAP then how likely is it their "well" is running dry ?

    I mean they could at least give their customers 1 month (30 days) notice as a nice gesture.

    Quote Originally Posted by cresci View Post
    You can never have a specific or proper forecast for vendor greed - just mentioned it in my last reply to this post. Increases in operating costs due to natural causes are foreseeable, but not this kind of thing. Or natural disasters (and lack of HDD availability jacking up prices more than 200% in some cases like it happened a couple years ago). Or M&A's and newborn monopolies, jacking up the price of RAM in non-linear projections.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by mainpipe View Post
    I don't think anybody else mentioned this... but Incero is giving away some upgrades in consideration of the upcoming price increases. They are offering either an extra 2TB drive, a 30TB on a gige port upgrade, or some raid 6 backup space.
    Unfortunately, my servers have no room for additional drives, and I have been paying for 30TB since I had the servers, so no free upgrades for me...
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonea View Post
    Of course not everything could be exactly as forecast.

    However giving their customer base 0 notice in advance could only mean somewhere along the line they missed some critical calculations.

    If they needed to increase their prices ASAP then how likely is it their "well" is running dry ?

    I mean they could at least give their customers 1 month (30 days) notice as a nice gesture.
    I agree with the short notice comment.
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonea View Post
    Doesn't matter tho. That's the cost of business. The increase in operating cost should already be within your forecast.

    If you are going to use those as an excuse then basically Incero never had a business plan or their forecast is wayyyy off.

    I mean are you telling me one day Incero decides to give one of their employee a raise then all the sudden the next day they are going to raise customer prices to offset the employee's raise is justifiable ?
    I understand what you are saying, I was only addressing what I thought was someone saying the costs in this industry are just going down all the time, which isn't the case, but seems that has been ironed out now as well
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  5. #80
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    Capitalism in action: what more do you expect? As some like Ionity have said before, over time: it should cost facilities less to operate on a per-client basis as financing (if applicable) costs disappear and clients trickle in/etc... Upgrades should be paced with or foreshadowing demand which would equate to revenue anyways... But really, what did you expect? Capitalism has no care for consumer well-being: not all companies/people are capitalists, unfortunately most American ones are... This is just greed cashing in on an existing client base, question is: when are they going to do it next?

    Kinda like... who is America going to invade next? heh... WMDs again? Or something more creative? Maybe destroying evil terrorist Communism and their relentless invasion of nations? LoL... Yeah, all those Vietnamese terrorists trying to attack America, good thing you folks taught them a lesson, eh? Destroyed their agricultural land to create a dependance on city-based/American-multinational infrastructure, good job! *sad sarcasm* heh :|

    There are just some things you can depend on a capitalist to do: one of them is put themselves above all else. The other is creative forms of racketeering, but that is on a level most people don't care to understand (they couldn't blissfully accept the rewards if they had a conscience and did).
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by NetDepot - Terrence View Post
    Sorry I wasn't clear in my statement, I'm refereeing to WHT specifically the offers here just seem to be getting cheaper and cheaper. Have a look at the offer sections.
    ok that makes a lot more sense now
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  7. #82
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    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by shoutcast_server View Post
    What really annoys me and shows you how cavalier Incero's attitude is .. they gave absolutely no warning or notice about the price increase.

    For example, I had an invoice for $109 which was due in 12 hours. They went in and changed the price to $169, which I am forced to pay. They immediately changed the prices of all my invoices which were already generated.
    Wow. Just wow.

    That's pretty sad if true.

    If that's the attitude towards clients, I'll be sure never to buy from Incero.
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  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by geekboy View Post
    Wow. Just wow.

    That's pretty sad if true.

    If that's the attitude towards clients, I'll be sure never to buy from Incero.
    Yes, it is absolutely true. An invoice what was due on 3/12/14 was changed and raised to $169 on March 5th moments after they sent out the price increase email. Plus others also.

    I believe (California law) that an invoice constitutes a legal contract. Changing it just before the due date is a 'breach of contract". However, Incero is governed by Texas law.

    I might speak to my attorney about this, but if I formally complain, I am afraid they will disable all my servers, as mentioned in a post above.

    Again, I agree that they do need a price increase, but raising prices on already generated invoices and giving no advance notice is very unprofessional.
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  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by shoutcast_server View Post
    I might speak to my attorney about this, but if I formally complain, I am afraid they will disable all my servers, as mentioned in a post above.
    I don't think speaking to your attorney is going to save you any money in this case, just cause more headache overall. Pay the bill, submit a cancellation request and find another provider that will offer you the specifications you need at your budget.

    If it's a large amount across multiple services, you may be better off speaking with an attorney once you have your data.
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  10. #85
    If you don't like this kind of treatment, leave. The popularity of incero, even as these kinds of billing issues have been well known for a long time (cancellation policy etc), makes it obvious people will pick the unsustainable low price with strings attached rather than go for the higher price with no tricks. The same goes for corexchange, which has had prices way below other colos for a long time. If the customer chooses these offerings, that's the customers fault and not the providers fault. Plenty of more expensive no tricks offers out there and if you don't want them, you get what you pay for.

    Honestly, if you were at a higher priced provider who had a reputation for customer friendly billing policies, and the same thing happened, ok, be upset.

    If you're going with a month to month term on an unsustainable offering from a provider who has a public track record of customer hostile billing policies, and you decide to do business there anyway because the low price today is all that matters to you, then you deserve what you get.

    It costs money to offer good service, you get what you pay for. A big part of our strategy is to do business with companies that won't change the rules on us with a moment's notice, and lock things in as long as possible. For example, we buy supermicro and not Dell for this reason, as Dell can offer you a good deal, but only if the stars are aligned. Supermicro is pretty much the same price all the time. We lock in the maximum term on our Colo, and don't go for loss leader offers. It costs too much to build out a location to find that we can't grow with a provider at the pricing they offered to get us in the door. You can't build a lasting business model around exploiting unsustainable vendor offers, and those who try will end up in tears but deserve what they get.
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  11. #86
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    Guys follow this guru with +8000 WHT posts when he says Incero is,

    Quote Originally Posted by funkywizard View Post
    unsustainable offering from a provider who has a public track record of customer hostile billing policies...
    Quite frankly if I had known this, we would have never gone with Incero!
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  12. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Indichosts.net View Post
    Guys follow this guru with +8000 WHT posts when he says Incero is,



    Quite frankly if I had known this, we would have never gone with Incero!
    Step 1 is read the terms of service. Customer friendly / hostile policies will generally be in there.

    Step 2 read the reviews

    Step 3 do the math. If you were your vendor, could you make money offering what they're selling at the price they're charging? If not.... If it's too good to be true....

    Step 4 if you are happy with the tradeoffs (every offer has + and -) go ahead. If not, don't. If your business model is ok with providing 10 days cancellation notice, and month to month pricing terms, then the cost savings may be worth it to you. But don't assume the cost savings come for free.
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoutcast_server View Post
    Yes, it is absolutely true. An invoice what was due on 3/12/14 was changed and raised to $169 on March 5th moments after they sent out the price increase email. Plus others also.

    I believe (California law) that an invoice constitutes a legal contract. Changing it just before the due date is a 'breach of contract". However, Incero is governed by Texas law.

    I might speak to my attorney about this, but if I formally complain, I am afraid they will disable all my servers, as mentioned in a post above.

    Again, I agree that they do need a price increase, but raising prices on already generated invoices and giving no advance notice is very unprofessional.
    Quote Originally Posted by shoutcast_server View Post
    Yes, it is absolutely true. An invoice what was due on 3/12/14 was changed and raised to $169 on March 5th moments after they sent out the price increase email. Plus others also.

    I believe (California law) that an invoice constitutes a legal contract. Changing it just before the due date is a 'breach of contract". However, Incero is governed by Texas law.

    I might speak to my attorney about this, but if I formally complain, I am afraid they will disable all my servers, as mentioned in a post above.

    Again, I agree that they do need a price increase, but raising prices on already generated invoices and giving no advance notice is very unprofessional.
    Hi Shoutcast,

    I'm sorry you felt you couldn't call or email us. I've refunded all payments on your account for the past 30 days of service, and I've sent a personal ticket in your account with an apology regarding the feelings you had that for some reason after several years with us you couldn't call or email us to let us know your concerns.

    Your machines will stay online free of charge until you have time to move to another host as you've indicated you wish to do. No need for legal threats, all you needed to do was send a ticket or email with your concerns and we would have made sure your concerns were addressed even if that meant making accommodations with service extensions etc for you to move to a new host.

    Will be happy to address any further concerns in the ticket or by phone 512.394.8803.

    Kind Regards,
    Gordon
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  14. #89
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    There's a lot of cheap shots from other providers in this thread. That's to be expected and I'll keep out of all of that. Most of our customer base is not the $99 customer base, and have responded favorably to the service level increases (more staff, more support, more network) and the 9.5% price increase after 6 years. I do however understand and appreciate the feeling of and can work with those customers who are upset, dismayed, annoyed, or angry.

    I urge any customers who have issues with the changes made to their plan to open a ticket and let us know your needs and goals (moving, combining servers to save costs, adding the free upgrades etc). So far this week we have helped countless customers by combining their server plans (e.g. replacing 2x old x3440s servers with newer Dual Xeon servers) for the same price they were paying before. We've also upgraded a lot of customer machines as per the email notice. etc etc.

    No need for elevated stress levels or legal threats, and there is no need for upset customers to be feeling that they can't call us or email us. We'll work with everyone as much as we can. If you decide you need to move to a new host, we can work with you on a free extension of your old prepaid period, etc.

    We're humans, not monsters. We can't help you if you complain on forums but don't actually call us or let us know your troubles/thoughts/needs.

    512.394.8803.

    Thanks,
    Gordon

    --
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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoutcast_server View Post
    For example, I had an invoice for $109 which was due in 12 hours. They went in and changed the price to $169, which I am forced to pay. They immediately changed the prices of all my invoices which were already generated.
    you should only be forced to pay that amount if you decide you want to continue service. otherwise, you're supposed to be provided fair notice (regardless of what the ToS might say).

    so, you should be able to take this next month at your old price, w/ the knowledge that your service will be terminated at the end of that billing period.

    a bit akin to freezing credit cards if they decide to raise your APR

    there is no chance something like that would hold up if you took legal action

    ed:

    No need for elevated stress levels or legal threats, and there is no need for upset customers to be feeling that they can't call us or email us. We'll work with everyone as much as we can. If you decide you need to move to a new host, we can work with you on a free extension of your old prepaid period, etc.
    ok, nm. that covers what I just said
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  16. #91
    Jumped on Incero when the server was at $99, added a lot of the one-time fee and 30TB/Gbps port, at a total of $121. Network is excellent. One of the very few servers that I have that can actually burst to 1Gbps at any time.

    Even upping to $169/mo still represents a great value that I could not find elsewhere in WHT.

    Many providers here with great network, try to sell you a server with crippled amount of disk and memory, then they would ask for such as $100/mo for a 960GB SSD, or $40/mo for a 4TB drive, or $40/mo for a GigE port, $10/mo for every 8GB of ram, or even $30/mo for a KVM. That is if these options are even available.

    Though I do agree with above that the billing issue could be handled better. My server had the invoice paid just before the email so I'm probably one of the luckier one.
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  17. #92
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    So what if they jump the price to $249 next month? Then $299 the following ?

    I don't think anybody is arguing over the price in this thread rather than how they handled the whole price increase that is concerning.

    Quote Originally Posted by arthurleung View Post
    Jumped on Incero when the server was at $99, added a lot of the one-time fee and 30TB/Gbps port, at a total of $121. Network is excellent. One of the very few servers that I have that can actually burst to 1Gbps at any time.

    Even upping to $169/mo still represents a great value that I could not find elsewhere in WHT.

    Many providers here with great network, try to sell you a server with crippled amount of disk and memory, then they would ask for such as $100/mo for a 960GB SSD, or $40/mo for a 4TB drive, or $40/mo for a GigE port, $10/mo for every 8GB of ram, or even $30/mo for a KVM. That is if these options are even available.

    Though I do agree with above that the billing issue could be handled better. My server had the invoice paid just before the email so I'm probably one of the luckier one.
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  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthurleung View Post
    then they would ask for such as $100/mo for a 960GB SSD
    That is not such a unrealistic monthly fee i would say.
    Enterprise 800GB SSD drive represents a $2000,- investment for a provider and you can be certain that the SSD needs to be replaced within 18-24 months in heavy server usage, so that $100,- / month represents a slim profit margin if any at all.
    The other examples you show may be somewhat over the top, however many such providers offer buydown prices with 'stable' monthly fees.
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  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by swiftnoc View Post
    That is not such a unrealistic monthly fee i would say.
    Enterprise 800GB SSD drive represents a $2000,- investment for a provider and you can be certain that the SSD needs to be replaced within 18-24 months in heavy server usage, so that $100,- / month represents a slim profit margin if any at all.
    The other examples you show may be somewhat over the top, however many such providers offer buydown prices with 'stable' monthly fees.
    @swiftnoc
    Have a look at http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crucial-960G.../dp/B00BQ8RGL6
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  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indichosts.net View Post
    He said Enterprise class, not your average desktop class ssd. They are expensive as hell, and i picked the cheapest.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...9SIA0ZX1AJ7264
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...9SIA3ER18A6334
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820248041
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  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indichosts.net View Post
    That is a very good SSD drive. But it isn't an enterprise SSD. However, many hosts aren't using enterprise SSD's.
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  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indichosts.net View Post
    It is not an Enterprise class drive, that is a desktop drive. What is the primary difference you would ask?
    That drive can be written 72 times at random, in total before you can toss it away. Endurance: 72TB total bytes written (TBW), equal to 40GB per day for 5 years
    A Enterprise class SSD offers 10 full disk writes per day for 5 years. So ie a 800GB Intel DC S3700 SSD SATA 6Gb/s has a comparable Endurance: 14600TB TBW equal to 8000GB per day for 5 years.
    See the difference?
    There are other problems with using desktop drives as SSDs for dedicated servers. Most desktop drives support a password set data protection encryption. That sounds like a good idea on a desktop, it is not a good idea on a dedicated server.
    Customer A can set the password, cancel the server after a month and then SSD becomes unusable for new customers.
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  23. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by swiftnoc View Post
    It is not an Enterprise class drive, that is a desktop drive. What is the primary difference you would ask?
    That drive can be written 72 times at random, in total before you can toss it away. Endurance: 72TB total bytes written (TBW), equal to 40GB per day for 5 years
    A Enterprise class SSD offers 10 full disk writes per day for 5 years. So ie a 800GB Intel DC S3700 SSD SATA 6Gb/s has a comparable Endurance: 14600TB TBW equal to 8000GB per day for 5 years.
    See the difference?
    There are other problems with using desktop drives as SSDs for dedicated servers. Most desktop drives support a password set data protection encryption. That sounds like a good idea on a desktop, it is not a good idea on a dedicated server.
    Customer A can set the password, cancel the server after a month and then SSD becomes unusable for new customers.
    I guess it is sort of my fault for going off-topic.

    Providers stating that it will be an enterprise SSD then sure $100 is a fair price.
    However, most providers here that provide an option for 960GB SSD does not give you an enterprise drive.

    I would suggest take a look at
    http://techreport.com/review/26058/t...on-after-600tb

    If the worst 256GB can endure 100TB, 960GB can endure almost 400TB by extension. For most practical purpose for a <$200 server, I think a consumer drive is sufficient.

    So what if they jump the price to $249 next month? Then $299 the following ?
    I will probably move in that case but I doubt it will actually happen anytime soon. Hope I am not wrong though.
    Last edited by arthurleung; 03-08-2014 at 01:42 PM.
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  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthurleung View Post
    If the worst 256GB can endure 100TB, 960GB can endure almost 400TB by extension. For most practical purpose for a <$200 server, I think a consumer drive is sufficient.
    Most practical purpose for a SSD drive is a one or multiple large databases, consumer grade drives may or may not be a good choice. The best option in my opinion is to give the client the choice, by specifying what SSD's are used.

    Crucial's own specification
    http://www.crucial.com/store/mpartsp...912451A5CA7304
    Clearly lists the Endurance of the drive:
    Endurance: 72TB total bytes written (TBW), equal to 40GB per day for 5 years
    That is certainly not adequate for any server use, unless you write once and read many times and need the SSD primarily to serve files quickly, in such a case however multiple SAS or SATA drives in raid-1 or raid-10 will prove to be more reliable for data redundancy purposes.
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  25. #100
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    Just RAID them. RAID1 has next to no overhead, even with SSDs, even with mdraid.
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