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  1. #126
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    excellent post, Roj.

  2. #127
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    I don't use TS, never have and probably will never have a need to. That said, I think Roj has done a wonderful job of taking his lumps and learning from them. He sounds like the kind of person who will navigate his company towards greater things.

    If I ever did need outsourced support (doubtful), I would seriously consider TS. Well done!!

    --Tina
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  3. #128
    Roj, Nice post. A company that is willing to admit their mistakes in public, rectify them and move forward deserves a lot of credit....

  4. #129
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    Originally posted by niyogi
    our quality has come across as being poor, inconsistent, and effectively not dependable...When I started this business, it was in the first floor of my grandmother's house here in Calcutta...power outages soon became a daily issue and we were seeing between 15 minutes and two hours daily...our broadband provider was ridiculous...losing adequate connection for up to 24 hours...bad cost structure and client management...Billing issues with some of our clients have emerged on these forums...I am unaware of any outstanding billing issues (but that could be because my father is handling them in Houston)...
    when you're "outsourcing" your support, just remember this line, "I started this business...in the first floor of my grandmother's house here in Calcutta." that's who you're handing you clients - which is all you've got - over to.

    yes, while you're bitching and moaning that teenage $1 a month hosts running servers out of their bedrooms are ruining the hosting business, you're more than willing to hand all of your customer support over to their Indian equivalent!

    amazing.
    datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?

  5. #130
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    Not all hosting companies are $1 a month hosts running from their bedrooms. Neither are all India companies providing support a one man organization running from "grandma's home".

    It is for the customer to evaluate the team they are selecting.
    The point here is that outsourcing is not bad. It is the way a person selects the provider.

    I would however like to add a point here. I am presently reading a book called "Made in Japan" by Akio Morita. He is the co-founder of Sony. He says when they started it was from a garage equivalent. It was the commitment towards their customers and their passion for work that has made Sony what is it today. So being small does not matter. However having the right systems in place surely does matter.

    Also have the right ethics does matter. There is no harm saying that you are small when you are small. Just never tell a lie to a customer saying that you are big when infact you are small. We had many customers who accepted us when we started knowing very well that we are small. They are reason we have grown. There are many who come to us now knowing that we are big and established. The rule however is always say the truth.



    Regards
    Amar
    A student once asked his teacher, "Master, what is enlightenment?"
    The master replied, "When hungry, eat. When tired, sleep. When you need care, come to bobcares....
    https://bobcares.in

  6. #131
    Datapimp, I can certainly understand why you feel that way in the light of this thread.


    It is certainly regretful that there are some web hosting support companies which do not plan properly to ensure reliable support or their clients.

    However that is not the case with all Indian outsourcing companies. There are some Indian outsourcing companies which have taken the care to plan proper infrastructure and quality of service.

    It is household knowledge in India that power outages occur regularly in both residential and commercial premises. Anybody who has even taken a holiday to India would be well aware of that. Power outages occur all over the country but in order to support the IT industry government and private agencies have constructed Software Technology Parks (STPs) with world-class facilities and reliable infrastructure. Outsourcing companies based at STPs can provide the reliable service which is
    required of a 24/7 company.

    I respectfully suggest that the fact that one Indian outsourcing company has chosen to operate their service in this surprising manner is not reason to automatically dismiss other Indian companies.


    The point is that you need to be very careful when choosing an
    outsourcing company. You need to decide on firm facts, rather than illusions constructed by some support companies, whether you can entrust your customers, your livelihood, to that company.

    Whether it is in India, the US, or elsewhere, there will be some good choices of support companies and some poor choices. The trick is finding the good choices.
    SupportResort.com
    http://www.supportresort.com/
    "Your first resort for customer support"

  7. #132
    Datapimp,

    I really think what Roj said has been seriously misconstrued here. First off, many companies have started off from within their own garages. Apple and Microsoft come to mind and they are now leading giants in the computer industry. Don't underestimate the will power of a man with a dream simply because you feel like, for your own personal or political reasons that outsourcing is bad. Do you feel like it is un-American to outsource? If so, tell that to the millions of Americans who buy clothing that is made in other countries. Or those that buy Japanese or European cars. Simply put, America is about choices, and these are the choices that Americans have.

    Kerry opposes outsourcing and wants to tax it heavily. Yet, he's for small businesses. News Flash: outsourcing in some cases is a viable solution to competing with larger companies who can afford in-house support and other services that outsourcing works well for. Does that make sense to you? You're asking small businesses to keep prices up by hiring American employees while large companies can do predatory pricing while having their own in-house support (and in some cases they outsource too) simply because they can afford to. Simply because the ROI for doing so is greater in the longrun than in the short. The macroeconomic benefits of outsourcing is there.

    And you know what? You'd be surprised that this is coming from someone with a degree in Computer Science and does software development/database design for a living. Americans will have to become more specialized; this is a fact of life. If you aren't capable of keeping up and competing, then you stand to lose in an industry that won't wait for its slowest competitors.

    Your arguments are an example of how ignorant some of us Americans can be. If outsourcing is bad simply on the premise of you being a nationalist or professionalism then you will have to find another argument.

  8. #133
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    Originally posted by aixagent
    Datapimp,

    I really think what Roj said has been seriously misconstrued here. First off, many companies have started off from within their own garages. Apple and Microsoft come to mind and they are now leading giants in the computer industry. Don't underestimate the will power of a man with a dream simply because you feel like, for your own personal or political reasons that outsourcing is bad. Do you feel like it is un-American to outsource? If so, tell that to the millions of Americans who buy clothing that is made in other countries. Or those that buy Japanese or European cars. Simply put, America is about choices, and these are the choices that Americans have.

    Kerry opposes outsourcing and wants to tax it heavily. Yet, he's for small businesses. News Flash: outsourcing in some cases is a viable solution to competing with larger companies who can afford in-house support and other services that outsourcing works well for. Does that make sense to you? You're asking small businesses to keep prices up by hiring American employees while large companies can do predatory pricing while having their own in-house support (and in some cases they outsource too) simply because they can afford to. Simply because the ROI for doing so is greater in the longrun than in the short. The macroeconomic benefits of outsourcing is there.

    And you know what? You'd be surprised that this is coming from someone with a degree in Computer Science and does software development/database design for a living. Americans will have to become more specialized; this is a fact of life. If you aren't capable of keeping up and competing, then you stand to lose in an industry that won't wait for its slowest competitors.

    Your arguments are an example of how ignorant some of us Americans can be. If outsourcing is bad simply on the premise of you being a nationalist or professionalism then you will have to find another argument.
    Well said . Those are my sentiments exactly. And, outsourcing actually benefits the US economically (although because it does cut-out American jobs, it is often viewed as negative by Americans because it doesn't directly benefit the individual, but because it contributes to the world economy and to an ally for the forseeable future, in the long-term the US will benefit from this move.).

    Regards,
    Waylon

  9. #134
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    Hi folks:

    A little vent, honesty (and call it marketing in some ways): Our competitors have posted in this thread hinting at the wrong way of how I started this business. I'm doing it in the spirit of American entrepreneurship albeit in the global arena. I've put a lot of money into making this work and taken many wrong turns while trying to do so. I thank those companies that have worked with us during the bumps and grinds while I make an attempt to improve things around here.

    At the very least, when you think of outsourcing your customer support, please consider that you are outsourcing to an AMERICAN company run by an AMERICAN where the dollars (and profit, if any) stay in American hands.

    I highly doubt we're making a dent in the job market and have an effect on the unemployment rates and I believe, ironically, that we are trying to help one or two-man hosting shops put together a 24 hour support team since it's fairly impossible to hire someone in house. It was hard enough for me to pay for an executive office suite when I had my hosting business in Dallas.

    Mr. Amar and Mr. Rangan, please please consider that I could have gone to angel investors and other financiers in Texas to make things much easier for myself but I'm trying to make it on my own here. Please watch out if I take the earlier route! Life could be much worse for ya! I might fail but that's where I learn the most and come back better and stronger. ;-)

    Roj
    Web Hosting? Been there. Done that.
    I am niyogi.

  10. #135
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    Hey Roj,
    If you read my post, I have supported you. But it is sad to see you say that I have tried to make fun of somebody who started small. We had started small too ( before we launched bobcares).

    As far as competition goes. We like it and encourage it.
    Good for us. The industry is formed that way.

    Regards
    Amar
    A student once asked his teacher, "Master, what is enlightenment?"
    The master replied, "When hungry, eat. When tired, sleep. When you need care, come to bobcares....
    https://bobcares.in

  11. #136
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    Amar:

    It is sad - however I've learned quite well how to read between the lines and wouldn't doubt for one moment that it's wasn't all supportive. ;-)

    Whether you like competition isn't really the issue. Competition spurs innovation and boosts quality control measures.

    Roj
    Web Hosting? Been there. Done that.
    I am niyogi.

  12. #137
    After reading all ten pages so far, one would almost think the whole thing was scripted. This is all -classic-, I tell you. People who've never used Tripod Support praising it up and down. Ye Olde Business Elders coming in and giving an extremely erudite dissertation on the validity of outsourcing. And of course the ubiquitous court jester simultaneously screaming "The Sky is Falling!" and "USA! USA! USA!" and the required "You Suck!"

    That said, I don't necessarily think datapimp is wrong. Frankly, some of all the things possible are right for some of all the people. If all the webhosts ran their businesses in the same way there'd be no difference between them.

    Frankly, most businesses in this industry started in a garage or basement -somewhere-. Mine started when a Professor Emeritus of Psychology, a French professor of English (now -there's- irony) and a professor from the College of Music hit me up for answers to noobie website questions all within one week when I was a student assistant at my university. None of the questions had anything to do with the school; they were requests for me to assist them in private ventures because I could explain simple things to them without talking down to them. My first paycheck consisted of a drum lessons, a psychoanalysis and a bottle of 1986 Mouton-Rothschild. I kid you not. The next year paid for a car and school and things went from there.

    That was in late 1996 and now, all those years later, I still have less than 100 clients, and that is by choice. I charge a premium for what is essentially support - webhosting is a dime a dozen nowadays, as long as you are careful about fraud. Day or night I'm available to answer all the usual "n00b" questions by phone or email, and I can concentrate on those close relationships because I have "outsourced" my hosting to a reliable provider and merely resell the space I've purchased.

    It pays the bills. However, inflation goes up, it's getting harder to compete with the bevy of cheap hosters out there and I'm considering my options for automating my processes more and offering more services to the "masses" of people that would not normally need the level of hand-holding I provide.

    If there's one thing I've learned, it's that even if it really is the client's fault, it's NEVER the client's fault. Capeche?

    Roj's first post in this thread struck a dangerous cord with me. I could care less if he were -still- running his business out of his mother's basement as long as the service was good. I can even understand passing some of it off to intermittent power failures and any other acts of God. Sh*t happens.

    However, Roj has one sentence where he takes responsibility for the lack of reliability in his service of late. He followed that with several -paragraphs- passing the blame onto unscrupulous clients. They may -be- unscrupulous, they may overload their servers, they may provide you with poor access, whatever. But your poor service is your poor service, and I'd actually be more inclined to forgive you for that than I would for your passing the buck onto the people that -paid- you for the service you were expected to provide.

    When I started having problems with Interland, I actually started losing a few clients. Not once did I say to them, "It's Interland's fault, not mine," or blame them for uploading too much at once and overloading the server. If I provide the service and you're not getting the service I said you would, the fault is mine.

    Blaming your customers for your failure to provide service is a hard pill for me to swallow, and I'm -not- actually a customer!

  13. #138
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    Originally posted by aixagent
    ...this is coming from someone with a degree in Computer Science and does software development/database design for a living.
    why doesn't the company that you work for replace you with a software developer/database designer from Bangladesh or Calcutta? i mean, that's just smart business, right? there couldn't possibly be any valid reason to use you when they could get the same thing from someone 8,000 miles away for a fraction of the cost, right?

    right?
    If you aren't capable of keeping up and competing, then you stand to lose in an industry that won't wait for its slowest competitors.
    i don't know where you are, but i live in Los Angeles, and i can't "compete" with someone who can live on $3 an hour.
    Your arguments are an example of how ignorant some of us Americans can be.
    if it's ignorant to employ the people in your own community, then you win - i'm ignorant.
    datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?

  14. #139
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    Originally posted by niyogi
    ...you are outsourcing to an AMERICAN company run by an AMERICAN where the dollars (and profit, if any) stay in American hands.
    no ****, sherlock. that's the definition of "outsourcing:" few AMERICANS profiting at the expense of many AMERICANS.

    that was a great little pep talk though. but you should have ended it like this: "hey guys, i know your jobs are gone, but you'll be happy to know that an AMERICAN is profiting from your misery!"

    yeah man, AMERICAN as apple pie.
    datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?

  15. #140
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    I agree that we should hire right here in the US.


    Has anyone got a link to a team of multiple techs locally (LA) that will work 8 hours a day, 7 days a week for 50.00 a month? <--- combined

    Just let me know. I'd hate to rob that money from good ole USA

  16. #141
    Originally posted by e-places
    I agree that we should hire right here in the US.


    Has anyone got a link to a team of multiple techs locally (LA) that will work 8 hours a day, 7 days a week for 50.00 a month? <--- combined

    Just let me know. I'd hate to rob that money from good ole USA
    Doubtful, but if you find it, please let me know

    On a side note, it is not a requirement to outsource to an offshore company in order to benefit from the economics of outsourcing. I certainly understand that this belief is widespread, however, due to the extremely small number of US technical support outsourcing firms (my latest count was 2, and no, I'm not including visionex as their technical staff is certainly not in the US).

    All that aside; we started in the back of a consulting firm with roughly 10 ft. x 10 ft. of office space; Cheers to anyone that is able to start in a garage, grandmother's house, or in the space of large closet and create a 'real' business.
    <<< Please see Forum Guidelines for signature setup. >>>

  17. #142
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    Originally posted by e-places
    Has anyone got a link to a team of multiple techs locally (LA) that will work 8 hours a day, 7 days a week for 50.00 a month? <--- combined
    if you can't afford sufficient staff, you have fundamental problems with your business.

    when you can't afford to hire people to work at your company, your company is broken. you need to; A) do everything yourself for no pay, B) bring in more revenue so you can hire staff, or C) go out of business.

    "wait a minute, how DARE YOU suggest that i should go out of business?!"

    well, here; imagine for a minute that you are not a wet behind the ears, smug, privileged a-hole trying to run a web hosting company, but rather someone running a real business like a bakery. what happens to your bakery if you can't sell enough pie to pay the utilities and a couple of employees?

    why, shock of all shocks - it goes out of business! as it should.

    the problem with many of you outsourcing apologists is you grew up with a sick sense of entitlement. You think the world owes you a big MTV-cribs-champagne-hooker-jackpot, and you sure as hell aren't going to actually work for it. working is for suckers, and people's dads.

    so you take a few hundred dollars, get in line behind 100,000 other unimaginative super geniuses and start a web hosting company. a year or so goes by and you have 15 accounts that you just can't keep up with, yet you only charge $1.99 a month, so you have no income to pay anyone to help you.

    "this entrepreneurship thing is wack, yo! where my Benz? where the bitches at? ima hire me some of them ign't cow-worshipping muhfuh's to answer my 20 emails a day!"

    and on and on you limp, failing at every step, yet still able to maintain the facade because you can be in this ridiculous business for a hundred bucks a month.

    jesus, wait a minute...i got a little carried away there. i beg your pardon. sometimes i start typing and...

    what i meant to say was simply, if you can't afford sufficient staff, you have fundamental problems with your business.

    yeah.

    i love this thread, man. it's a neverending gobstopper!
    datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?

  18. #143
    Outsource to US personnel and enjoy the rude ,obnoxious, arogant, stuck-up, miopic attitude that makes the USA what it is today (for an example see post above).


    * Warning: this post contains outrageous small-minded stereotyping in keeping with the tone of this thread.

  19. #144
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    Originally posted by freakysid
    Outsource to US personnel and enjoy the rude ,obnoxious, arogant, stuck-up, miopic attitude that makes the USA what it is today (for an example see post above).
    Hey, now, that's just datapimp doin' his thang.

    so you take a few hundred dollars, get in line behind 100,000 other unimaginative super geniuses and start a web hosting company. a year or so goes by and you have 15 accounts that you just can't keep up with, yet you only charge $1.99 a month, so you have no income to pay anyone to help you.

    "this entrepreneurship thing is wack, yo! where my Benz? where the bitches at? ima hire me some of them ign't cow-worshipping muhfuh's to answer my 20 emails a day!"
    Eric J. Bowman, principal
    Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
    I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...

  20. #145
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    Originally posted by freakysid
    Outsource to US personnel and enjoy the rude ,obnoxious, arogant, stuck-up, miopic attitude that makes the USA what it is today (for an example see post above). Warning: this post contains outrageous small-minded stereotyping in keeping with the tone of this thread.
    hmm, i'm trying to figure out just which part of the post could have made you so darn cross! the only thing i can come up with is that you must be a "wet behind the ears, smug, privileged a-hole," and you took offense to that characterization. i don't know. it's hard to tell from where i stand.

    ooooh, i think i know what it is...your bakery went out of business! sorry to hear it. you have my condolences.

    Code:
    mysql> SELECT * FROM table WHTusers
           WHERE UserName='freakysid'
           AND clue='yes';
    mysql> Empty set (0.02 sec)
    datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?

  21. #146
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    Originally posted by freakysid
    Outsource to US personnel and enjoy the rude ,obnoxious, arogant, stuck-up, miopic attitude that makes the USA what it is today (for an example see post above). Warning: this post contains outrageous small-minded stereotyping in keeping with the tone of this thread.
    hmm, i'm trying to figure out just which part of the post could have made you so darn cross! the only thing i can come up with is that you must be a "wet behind the ears, smug, privileged a-hole," and you took offense to that characterization. i don't know. it's hard to tell from where i stand.

    ooooh, i think i know what it is...your bakery went out of business! sorry to hear it. you have my condolences.

    PHP Code:
    mysqlSELECT FROM table WHTusers
                WHERE UserName
    ='freakysid'
                
    AND clue='yes';
    mysql> Empty set (0.02 sec
    datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?

  22. #147
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    I hate to resurrect a really old topic, but based on a couple posts I saw here I gave Tripod a 60 day trial, and I'm going to now post the results of those 60 days.

    --I'll ignore the comments about how good/bad/solvent my busines(s) is/are out of embarrassment for the statement.

    On to reality.


    In 60 days I tracked every single instance of their help.

    I followed behind every thread in the support area and intentionally did not respond to any support tickets.

    I did this because i figured if I was going to try to rely on them, i had to rely on them all the time, just just mostly.

    60 days total

    tickets opened: 73
    Average Response time by Tripod 4.6 hours
    Closed tickets:0
    SSH or Telnet logins to resolve a problem: 0
    Ensim Logins as administrator: 0

    They are without a doubt the worst of anything I could have hoped for.

    I looked at all my ssh/telnet logs and nobody ever logged in once. Not to restart mysql, not to check a config file, hell not even to see what the server load was.

    Not only did they not help, their sheer ignorance in answering a question with relevant ideas actually caused me more time to answer questions about propagation for a ticket that was opened asking how to log in to MySQL using MySQL Control Center.

    They're not bad, they're horrid.

    I'm not usually anywhere near this direct to speak down on something, but after the 30 days, I gave them the benefit of the doubt, thinking "Well it does take a little while to get use to the new system, and settle in".

    Whoever Dev is there, he seems nice enough, in fact all correspondence was considerate. but considerate is no clearance for ignorance, and based on some of the answers they gave I can say with 100% comfort that the techs that answered my tickets were barely familiar with the ticketing system, were NOT qualified or knowledgeable in Linux, and I can only assume the same with Ensim since they didn't even bother trying that one.

  23. #148
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    Seems a little shocking to me - that we didn't solve a single ticket. No effort was taken on your part to communicate with us and it seems to have been an issue of us even getting notified about your tickets. I could be wrong but if you want to call me at 713.490.2087 or discuss with me by email or IM, you can do so as well at niyogi@tripodsupport.com.

    Good luck with e-places.net!

    Roj

  24. #149
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    Btw, http://www.e-places.net/about.htm (if you look towards the bottom, you've got a broken link on the "Hosting" image).

    Roj

  25. #150
    Originally posted by datapimp.com
    i don't know. it's hard to tell from where i stand.
    Try pulling your head out of your a-hole - that might help.

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