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  1. #1

    Website that doesn't get taken down because of legal threats

    Hello all,

    I made a website referencing to an online store with experiences and the bad service it provided. How that details used on that store can be used to hijack other relative accounts such as email and forum logins as long you use the same user name or password.

    However the store owner keeps email hosts, threatening them with legal action. Samples of his latest complain is below:


    The url contains falsehood, malicious, defamatory and false statements concerning my business

    The website owner is attempting a failed extortion and blackmail attempt.

    Should they remain published by 48 hours of the date and time of this email then I will commence civil proceedings against your for continued allowance of the above

    Should they continue to do so we will hold you responsible now for any such further breaches in line with

    Godfrey v. Demon Internet Limited [1999] EWHC QB 244

    Kaschke v Gray & Hilton, [2010] EWHC 690 (QB)

    & the very recent

    DELFI AS v. ESTONIA ECHR 64569/09

    So far every host I have been with seems to respond to these threats and suspend my hosting account. Are there any hosts out there that would not respond to such nonsense and allow people to express their opinions and uphold freedom of speech? I also read that under section Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act the host cannot be held responsible for publications made by someone else.

    Any insight on this matter or advice would be really appreciated!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by monte_cristo View Post
    Hello all,

    I made a website referencing to an online store with experiences and the bad service it provided. How that details used on that store can be used to hijack other relative accounts such as email and forum logins as long you use the same user name or password.

    However the store owner keeps email hosts, threatening them with legal action. Samples of his latest complain is below:


    The url contains falsehood, malicious, defamatory and false statements concerning my business

    The website owner is attempting a failed extortion and blackmail attempt.

    Should they remain published by 48 hours of the date and time of this email then I will commence civil proceedings against your for continued allowance of the above

    Should they continue to do so we will hold you responsible now for any such further breaches in line with

    Godfrey v. Demon Internet Limited [1999] EWHC QB 244

    Kaschke v Gray & Hilton, [2010] EWHC 690 (QB)

    & the very recent

    DELFI AS v. ESTONIA ECHR 64569/09

    So far every host I have been with seems to respond to these threats and suspend my hosting account. Are there any hosts out there that would not respond to such nonsense and allow people to express their opinions and uphold freedom of speech? I also read that under section Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act the host cannot be held responsible for publications made by someone else.

    Any insight on this matter or advice would be really appreciated!
    I honestly have never encountered a situation like this. However, personally I would look at the content that is being presented on our server. If its simply slander with curse words, offensive content..ect. I'd probably have that customer move their website elsewhere, however if the site was well written and simply providing the information as a news source, then no action would be taken (of course after getting some brief counsel on the matter).
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  3. #3
    No slander or any abusive wording has been using, just simple plain facts. Stuff that you would be able to openely say about any other high street store. Here's a main text from the site:


    Products stock levels are not actual and are not updated in real time. As soon you place your order, the item changes from in stock to out of stock. You're then left with no idea to when ever it will come in or be dispatched.

    If you dare to cancel your order, complain or ask for a refund your account is blocked and you're sent abusive and rude messages informing you that you are being banned from their store.


    Your details are not safe including your user name, password, email etc. If you use any of the same details on any other website or forum then it will be hijacked and used against you. It will become personal and all efforts will be put to troll you to the end of the earth.

    The postal PO Box address on the site is not active as was confirmed by Royal Mail, so you're mail will not be delivered and will be returned to you if you provide a return address. So there is no point in making a complaint via a letter.

    Trading standards cannot do much as the website and payment processing are being hosted outside the UK. The domain name registrant details are in Thailand while the actual website is being hosted in Canada so the authorities will have a difficult time in finding whoever is in the UK that is running things from this end.

    _________________________________________________________________

    He uses the same tactics with forums where in many occasions threads made about him from people who bought stuff and never got it. He emails the forum admins with similar messages like quoted in my previous post and few days later either the whole thread is gone or few pages are deleted.

    I'm certain the person in question has no intention of taking legal action as it most likely he will loose not to mention the fact that he had brawl with the law years back where he was featured in the news and that's why he no longer runs his business from the UK. However it seems most web hosts react of fear rather than reason or common sense.

    The same last host, took off the site offline first when they received an email saying that my website is involved in illegal phishing, hacking and other activities yet if the host bothered to check the site there was no such thing just a front index html page and piwik web traffic statistics which they provide themselves in their control panel. Have stated that, they restored the site just for it to be suspended again less than 24 hours after he emailed them the 2nd message with threatening legal action.

    Quote Originally Posted by FernGullyGraphics View Post
    I honestly have never encountered a situation like this. However, personally I would look at the content that is being presented on our server. If its simply slander with curse words, offensive content..ect. I'd probably have that customer move their website elsewhere, however if the site was well written and simply providing the information as a news source, then no action would be taken (of course after getting some brief counsel on the matter).

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by monte_cristo View Post
    No slander or any abusive wording has been using, just simple plain facts. Stuff that you would be able to openely say about any other high street store. Here's a main text from the site:


    Products stock levels are not actual and are not updated in real time. As soon you place your order, the item changes from in stock to out of stock. You're then left with no idea to when ever it will come in or be dispatched.

    If you dare to cancel your order, complain or ask for a refund your account is blocked and you're sent abusive and rude messages informing you that you are being banned from their store.


    Your details are not safe including your user name, password, email etc. If you use any of the same details on any other website or forum then it will be hijacked and used against you. It will become personal and all efforts will be put to troll you to the end of the earth.

    The postal PO Box address on the site is not active as was confirmed by Royal Mail, so you're mail will not be delivered and will be returned to you if you provide a return address. So there is no point in making a complaint via a letter.

    Trading standards cannot do much as the website and payment processing are being hosted outside the UK. The domain name registrant details are in Thailand while the actual website is being hosted in Canada so the authorities will have a difficult time in finding whoever is in the UK that is running things from this end.

    _________________________________________________________________

    He uses the same tactics with forums where in many occasions threads made about him from people who bought stuff and never got it. He emails the forum admins with similar messages like quoted in my previous post and few days later either the whole thread is gone or few pages are deleted.

    I'm certain the person in question has no intention of taking legal action as it most likely he will loose not to mention the fact that he had brawl with the law years back where he was featured in the news and that's why he no longer runs his business from the UK. However it seems most web hosts react of fear rather than reason or common sense.

    The same last host, took off the site offline first when they received an email saying that my website is involved in illegal phishing, hacking and other activities yet if the host bothered to check the site there was no such thing just a front index html page and piwik web traffic statistics which they provide themselves in their control panel. Have stated that, they restored the site just for it to be suspended again less than 24 hours after he emailed them the 2nd message with threatening legal action.
    And in all honesty, I fail to see why the host should even get involved here as it is not the host's responsibility to manage a client's business practices as long as the client is not selling something that explicitly violates a law (drugs/child porn/etc).

    If a person does not like what the client posted, then they should take that out in a small claims court. This also goes if they ordered a product that was never shipped.
    Keith I Myers
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  5. #5
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  6. #6
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    I take it you only hosted in the US so far.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMyers View Post
    And in all honesty, I fail to see why the host should even get involved here as it is not the host's responsibility to manage a client's business practices as long as the client is not selling something that explicitly violates a law (drugs/child porn/etc).
    Came here to say this. No host should get involved in a legal matter on behalf of their client. If a customer's website manages to upset someone, and that site doesn't violate our AUP / TOS or any laws in our jurisdiction, and assuming there's not something more to the story here, I see no reason for the host to get involved.

    Furthermore, legal action originating in the UK against a US entity is, for all intents and purposes, meaningless. You can win an eleventy trillion euro award against a US company and in all but a few cases (think Google, Microsoft, Apple, etc) nobody cares. US courts aren't bound by UK law and vice versa. So even if a UK court orders a US host to take down a website, the US host is under no obligation to do so.

    That being said, if you're under the jurisdiction of the court in question, that's a whole other matter. I'm talking strictly about the web host here.
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  8. #8
    I have tried the UK and the Philippines and now it's on its third host in the US, will see how many hours/days it will be before he complains again.


    Quote Originally Posted by zoid View Post
    I take it you only hosted in the US so far.

  9. #9
    The host has few domains and seems to have international offices in US, UK, Lithuania etc. I mainly registered with their Philippines site/servers are. But when the suspension was removed the 1st time I could see from the logs that their Lithuanian IT people checked the site before the suspension was removed.

    The individual in question was residing in the UK before he moved to Thailand after being convicted for copyright issues and he appealed and won his appeal. He simply didn't want to be at the hand of the authorities if anything was to happen to him again. Now he runs his website with both .co.uk & .com domains which are registered to an address in Thailand while the postal address (no longer valid) on his website is a UK address. The servers hosting his site are in Canada (iWeb to be precise).


    Quote Originally Posted by FRH Lisa View Post
    Came here to say this. No host should get involved in a legal matter on behalf of their client. If a customer's website manages to upset someone, and that site doesn't violate our AUP / TOS or any laws in our jurisdiction, and assuming there's not something more to the story here, I see no reason for the host to get involved.

    Furthermore, legal action originating in the UK against a US entity is, for all intents and purposes, meaningless. You can win an eleventy trillion euro award against a US company and in all but a few cases (think Google, Microsoft, Apple, etc) nobody cares. US courts aren't bound by UK law and vice versa. So even if a UK court orders a US host to take down a website, the US host is under no obligation to do so.

    That being said, if you're under the jurisdiction of the court in question, that's a whole other matter. I'm talking strictly about the web host here.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by FRH Lisa View Post
    Furthermore, legal action originating in the UK against a US entity is, for all intents and purposes, meaningless.
    I would like to read such responses every time someone wishes to enforce the DMCA outside the US and is outraged if he doesnt succeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by monte_cristo View Post
    I have tried the UK and the Philippines and now it's on its third host in the US, will see how many hours/days it will be before he complains again.
    Given the extortion and blackmail references are wrong you could actually go for defamation and slander.

    Anyhow, its a tricky situation. I would clarify it with a host their policies before signing up.

  11. #11
    We rarely entertain threats made by anyone except a legal practitioner. Should the claim appear to be valid by our legal teams determination and its found to be in the clients best interest, it may be brought to the attention of the client.

    We do not police nor have any interest in our clients website content unless it violates our TOS.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by nkawit View Post
    We rarely entertain threats made by anyone except a legal practitioner. Should the claim appear to be valid by our legal teams determination and its found to be in the clients best interest, it may be brought to the attention of the client.

    We do not police nor have any interest in our clients website content unless it violates our TOS.
    <note: This only applies to the US, check with your own legal counsel for more details>

    No host should entertain these threats as we are protected against Safe Harbor provisions in many cases. All a host should do is pass this information onto the client. If the person wants to pursue the matter further, then they must directly take the client to court to fight it out there. NO FURTHER ACTION SHOULD BE TAKEN BY THE HOST.

    If the host gets involved more than that, then they are simply dissolving their safe harbor protections and can also find themselves named in the lawsuit.

    Of course, DMCA notices for copyrighted content, and other real legal complaints should still be addressed.
    Keith I Myers
    KMyers.me The rantings of a lunatic
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  13. #13
    If the host in the US takes the site down then I will look for a host here.

  14. #14
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    Honestly they shouldn't be taking you down if you're only stating the facts. You could write it on forums and answers.yahoo.com fine so why shouldn't you be able to post it on a website.

    Go to an offshore host if they're taking you offline and contact sales to check about abuse requests

    It's between you and the complainer not the host and the complainer. Get atleast a 24 or 48 hour till suspension if no reply etc.
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  15. #15

    9

    Well guess what? It's gone down AGAIN: Here's the message I get when trying to access the URL:

    Access forbidden!

    You don't have permission to access the requested directory. There is either no index document or the directory is read-protected.

    If you think this is a server error, please contact the webmaster.

    Guess time to look for a new host again . . .

  16. #16
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    I'd simply clarify the situation with a new host before signing up.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by zoid View Post
    I'd simply clarify the situation with a new host before signing up.
    I've just emailed one of the hosts that was recommended to me on an earlier post. Is there a list of hosts or a section on the forum that I could look at hosts that might be able to help me?

  18. #18
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    Try this website: http://prq.se/
    sorry, This user doesn't have a signature

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