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  1. #1
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    Terminology: 'RAID-protected data'

    Beyond famous 'unlimited', there are other hosting-related terms that are in fact confusing and/or misleading.

    One of those is popular phrase 'RAID-protected data'. However, those who actually set up and maintained RAID-based data know very well that there's no protection in terms of guarantee that data remain intact, no matter what.

    I witnessed several flames on hosters' communities when RAID failed, sending all the data to oblivion, and angry remarks were posted in abundance about the mentioned 'protection'.

    However, there are several simple law (natural law, not human-invented): every piece of hardware fails - it's only a matter of time.

    Several pieces of hardware in RAID setup can fail simultaneously. I saw that myself several times. Data can be lost. Backups could help to minimize data recovery time, but it can't be reduced to pure zero.

    More correct word is 'reliability', not 'protection'. Backups, RAID etc. raise the reliability, reduce time to recover. In terms of probability, those increase the amount of nines after the dot in expected reliability (e.g., 99.999% during a given time period). There can't be 100% reliability, only large enough number of nines.

    I suppose that phrase mentioned in subject, should be replaced, for the sake of clarity and being honest. Also, it will reduce the number of angry reviews where that 'protection' will be referred to as something real.
    Last edited by Master Bo; 03-24-2013 at 10:24 PM. Reason: typo
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  2. #2
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    The only time where I think raid should be used as a selling tool is when you're using it to speed up your drives via striping. ie. Raid 0 and Raid 1+0. I would in no way advertise that this alone will protect your data, it gives your users a false sense of security. Rather then investing in top of the line raid setup for every node you offer I'd think it be more beneficial to setup a SAN for nightly backups. That way you can use software raid on your machines for ease of use and have backups elsewhere. We still should educate customers that it's their responsibility to keep their data safe.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan- View Post
    We still should educate customers that it's their responsibility to keep their data safe.
    That's the problem: education.

    Whereas most hosters would be happy to have customers that do not assume things are handled by themselves, it's not stressed that either the hosting is inexpensive, or managed (in the latter case most maintenance tasks can be carried out by hoster's staff).

    And even in case of managed hosting backups should be done and copied by customers as well. Otherwise - see the comment in my signature.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Bo View Post
    That's the problem: education.

    Whereas most hosters would be happy to have customers that do not assume things are handled by themselves, it's not stressed that either the hosting is inexpensive, or managed (in the latter case most maintenance tasks can be carried out by hoster's staff).

    And even in case of managed hosting backups should be done and copied by customers as well. Otherwise - see the comment in my signature.
    In my eyes, unless the host explicitly offers backups it shouldn't be the hosts responsibility if hardware fails to have customer backups. If your data is important to you why would you let someone else make sure it's safe.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan- View Post
    If your data is important to you why would you let someone else make sure it's safe.
    True.

    But let's visit several dozens hosting providers sites and find something like "Your data are safe with us" on first page and "It's your responsibility to keep backups of you data" buried somewhere in ToS/AUP/SLA/wherever.

    The key word has been uttered: education.
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  6. #6
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    You're right in the sense that EVERY provider should be using servers with RAID mirroring - it would be downright foolish not to, knowing that hard drives will eventually fail.

    It would be equally as foolish to rely ONLY on RAID and not regular backups. Both are necessary.
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  7. #7
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    So if a host doesn't advertise RAID, you wouldn't first ask if they ran a single disk vs RAID10 before signing up?

  8. #8
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    Thats why I advertise as raided protected data and daily offsite backups. Because you never know when a entire raid does fail. I've heard it happen which it hasn't to me yet. But I'm sure as said "Just a matter of time"

    So bottom line is if you don't maintain offsite backups then data truely isn't protected. And I say offsite because what if a tornado wiped a datacenter off the face of earth. Well if your backup server was there I guess the data wasn't protected after all.

  9. #9
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    This is especially rampant in the VPS space. I honestly think that many vps providers create servers on a RAID10 node and cross their fingers. Even a couple of the larger providers (who advertise backups as part of the package) appear to be unable to recover from a RAID failure in an acceptable fashion.
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  10. #10
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    Backing up within the same server and same data center is just a bomb waiting to happen.

    Aside from us that are knowledgeable about what everything means, the common customers has no clue about raids. The most they know or will ask is about backup procedures.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Bo View Post
    That's the problem: education.
    If you mean education to the point a customer needs to educate themselves about what is, and is not, considered a real back up solution then yes, I concede your point. Otherwise, the problem is actually ASSUMPTION. The buyer fails to educate themselves, and then ASSUMES they have some sort of free data back up solution for free or pennies versus paying for it.

    As for your reference about unlimited and RAID-10... I do not believe it's the hosting companies malicious intent to screw a client. If you can't read a clearly posted AUP, that if your fault as a client PERIOD. If you are considering RAID-10 a fall over back up versus doing them yourself, or paying for offsite, then it's YOUR FAULT not the hosting companies.

    At some point there is something called personal responsibility at work here. The ISP is not your mother. Where they have to force you to eat your vegetables, or in this case read a TOS. Or make you research back up solutions before you make assumptions. In short, that is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY as a consumer.

    I love these threads where the host is always being blamed, they go on for pages, and at no point is it EVER the client's fault. They did not read the TOS, they did not submit a ticket, they did not pay their bill on time, they tried to run a tube site from a promotional VPS, they are using some poorly written script full of error, and so on and so forth.

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  12. #12
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    So you're claiming that a Host having a RAID system and advertising it is some back end way to screw the client?

    As many have related, unless the host promises some sort of data protection is included it's the client's responsibility to ensure data is backed up.

    Also, I spent over a decade setting up RAID storage systems in data centers all over the World. In that time I can't think of a single time when a failed drive was not able to be replaced and the array rebuilt. I suspect the bad experiences you've related w/ RAID were due to using RAID 0 / JBOD which offers no capability to rebuild the lost drive(s) vs. a true RAID system w/ striping / parity.

    I know if I can get better performance / reliability thanks to RAID vs. Non RAID for the same price or even more I'd like to know which one has which as part of my decision making process.
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