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  1. #26
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    No worries I guess we just had a freak case... even though the company who sells the software admitted to its major flaws. I am unsubscribing from this thread.

    Good luck with your future hosting ventures
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  2. #27
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    While I'm not a proponent of AppLogic anymore, I do take issue with AdmoNet's analysis. We have been running AppLogic now for 6 years, and while we did initially experience stability problems, we now have grids that have been running with up to 500 VMs on them for over two years with no customer-visible failures (in other words, not handled by AppLogic's HA.)

    We also have never lost a byte of customer data that they didn't delete themselves: the storage technology that it uses reliably preserves user data. Our reliable grids have versions from 2.8 on, and many of the issues that AdmoNet raised are from versions that are one to two back from the current release.

    The issues that we have experienced with it are that it is not truly multi-tenant, which has made running a multi tenant cloud infrastructure on it a challenge. There is 3rd-party software that addresses this problem, however.
    We have also experienced a drop in support since CA bought the technology, but because we're experts at managing the system, we haven't suffered from that. And finally, the back end networking and storage subsystem are not adequate to provide the performance for large grids. Going to 10GbE can solve part of the problem, but does not eliminate it. Also, running Windows on AppLogic can expose users to slow startup times for VMs, but once they're up they run well.

    As an a step up from shared hosting or low-end dedicated servers, or for deploying multi-vm self-managed "private clouds", AppLogic is a viable choice. It is not a high performance enterprise-grade cloud solution like a VMWare system would be that was based on high performance networking and SAN storage, which is why we no longer are taking new orders for it, since our business is to provide enterprise-grade virtual colocation/IT services.

    Eric Novikoff
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  3. #28
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    I've always been impressed with 3Tera/Applogic's way of dealing with storage, but I honestly don't know the system that well. A few questions:
    - Does it support deduplication ?
    - Thin provisioning? I think it does, right?
    - Can you define the level of redundancy per account? So, like a $99/mo client would have less redundancy than a $999/mo client?
    - Can you guarantee IO per drive/account/VM? So, like a $99/mo client would have less IO's guaranteed than a $999/mo client?
    - How does it deal with network IO, do you need 10g or multipath gig's for it to do well?
    - Can you automatically allocate the most access files to the fastest drives?
    - How does it deal with cache? Can you allocate specific drives (like SSD/FusionIO) to act as cache?
    - Does it have an object storage (S3 compatible) interface as well?
    - Does it support snapshots with a time-machine like filebased functionality?
    - Can you define a read-local, write distributed rule to ensure performance in low-throughput scenarios?

    Anyone here able to help out?


    D
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
    OnApp.com + Cloud.net & CDN.net

  4. #29
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    What?? Did you decide to move your debate and sales attempt from the other thread in colo over to this one?

    SO let me ask you a couple of questions?
    What will be the cost of your new storage per gig? Will it be in addition to the already per core charge for onapp?

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Techark View Post
    What?? Did you decide to move your debate and sales attempt from the other thread in colo over to this one?

    SO let me ask you a couple of questions?
    What will be the cost of your new storage per gig? Will it be in addition to the already per core charge for onapp?
    Since this thread is about Applogic, I won't plague the thread with OnApp discussion. I was simply trying to get a better understanding of the Applogic storage setup...


    D
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
    OnApp.com + Cloud.net & CDN.net

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Techark View Post
    What?? Did you decide to move your debate and sales attempt from the other thread in colo over to this one?

    SO let me ask you a couple of questions?
    What will be the cost of your new storage per gig? Will it be in addition to the already per core charge for onapp?
    Calm down.

    I'd like to know the answers to these questions as well. As to thinking it's just a list of features onapp does have, it clearly isn't. Onapp storage doesn't claim to have object (s3 style) storage, it also has been publicly stated it doesn't have caching yet, and it sounds like it doesn't automatic file allocation based on popularity, and probably doesn't have a few other features listed yet either. These are legitimate questions to ask and it's no wonder someone involved in a storage product would have them.
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  7. #32
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    I haven't heard eming state what his offers or doesn't as fact?
    Have you? Are these a list of features his new storage has or not?
    He is being very vague about it all.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by funkywizard View Post
    These are legitimate questions to ask and it's no wonder someone involved in a storage product would have them.
    While I agree with you, and want to know the answers as well I am somewhat bothered by the way Ditlev has approached the discussion. We are not stupid, and frankly I would think less of Ditlev and the OnApp team if he didn't already know the answers to these questions prior to beginning the development of such a massive product. I'd be willing to bet he has done significant amount of research on AppLogic prior to embarking on such a task.

    Having said that, I do want to know the answer to the questions. Further, I am quite curious, and want to hear more about OnApp Storage (perhaps on the other thread).

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Techark View Post
    I haven't heard eming state what his offers or doesn't as fact?
    Have you? Are these a list of features his new storage has or not?
    He is being very vague about it all.
    very true - Webhostingtalk is not meant for suppliers to "state their offers" in the public forums etc. Feel free to email sales@onapp.com - or me directly: d@onapp.com if you are interested in the OnApp products, I am happy to help.


    D
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
    OnApp.com + Cloud.net & CDN.net

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by forasse View Post
    While I agree with you, and want to know the answers as well I am somewhat bothered by the way Ditlev has approached the discussion. We are not stupid, and frankly I would think less of Ditlev and the OnApp team if he didn't already know the answers to these questions prior to beginning the development of such a massive product. I'd be willing to bet he has done significant amount of research on AppLogic prior to embarking on such a task.
    with the risk of sounding cocky: I have never been too fussed about the competition when building new products. All software products have internal roadmaps already outlined ahead of them, and if I build products at OnApp based on the competition, I would be focusing too much on their current offerings, today, rather than looking at how I feel this should be tomorrow.
    We do not have an Applogic install at the OnApp labs, and while I actually tested it years and years ago, I have not had the pleasure to play around with it since.

    So, no - I would honestly not be able to answer those questions. I really would not. I remember someone spoke about applogic having thin provisioning, but apart from that, I have no idea.

    Anyway, this is not about me/onapp - I'd love for someone to answer the q's


    D
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
    OnApp.com + Cloud.net & CDN.net

  11. #36
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    Most of the questions can be answered here.

    http://doc.3tera.com/AppLogic30/Rele...mitations.html

  12. #37
    I haven't tried the recent releases of applogic but we did test it relatively recently. 6 nodes, x3440, 16gb ram, 6 x 500gb wd re3 drives, cisco 3560g & a dell 6228 switch were using in testing. Let's see if I can answer your questions:

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    I've always been impressed with 3Tera/Applogic's way of dealing with storage, but I honestly don't know the system that well. A few questions:
    - Does it support deduplication ?
    Don't recall.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - Thin provisioning? I think it does, right?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - Can you define the level of redundancy per account? So, like a $99/mo client would have less redundancy than a $999/mo client?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - Can you guarantee IO per drive/account/VM? So, like a $99/mo client would have less IO's guaranteed than a $999/mo client?
    Don't believe so.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - How does it deal with network IO, do you need 10g or multipath gig's for it to do well?
    Network is HUGELY limiting. Single vs quad gbps connections did not improve performance. 6 drives per node vs 1 drive per node made no performance difference. Apparently moving to 10gbps will help.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - Can you automatically allocate the most access files to the fastest drives?
    Don't believe so.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - How does it deal with cache? Can you allocate specific drives (like SSD/FusionIO) to act as cache?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - Does it have an object storage (S3 compatible) interface as well?
    Unsure.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - Does it support snapshots with a time-machine like filebased functionality?
    Don't believe so.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - Can you define a read-local, write distributed rule to ensure performance in low-throughput scenarios?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    Anyone here able to help out?


    D
    We liked the idea of Applogic tremendously. The interface was lacking, especially for clients. To do what we wanted, we needed to also purchase a 3rd party front end and that was very pricey. But what we couldn't get over was the disk performance. Applogic sent us patches and we got conference calls with their engineers, their clients and so on. The level of support there was amazing BUT the performance was poor.

    Applogic has contacted me and said they have improved this area and I hope they have. But I haven't managed to test it.
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  13. #38
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    How poor was your drive performance?

    We will be setting up 10 nodes grid, 6x900 GB SAS 10K/node in RAID0 using Dell PERC H700 and 10Gbps backend. That should give us some awesome performance. I believe Birdhosting tested something similar to this and they were able to get 600 MBps write/read throughput (though I may be mistaken).

    And yes, I was told you can do IOPS metering per VM. You need to hack into it, but it's doable.

    BTW, what 3rd party front end do you use?
    Fluid Hosting, LLC - Enterprise Cloud Infrastructure: Cloud Shared and Reseller, Cloud VPS, and Cloud Hybrid Server

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostmind View Post
    We liked the idea of Applogic tremendously. The interface was lacking, especially for clients. To do what we wanted, we needed to also purchase a 3rd party front end and that was very pricey. But what we couldn't get over was the disk performance. Applogic sent us patches and we got conference calls with their engineers, their clients and so on. The level of support there was amazing BUT the performance was poor.

    Applogic has contacted me and said they have improved this area and I hope they have. But I haven't managed to test it.
    Thanks a lot for your feedback. Appreciate it!


    Quote Originally Posted by FHDave View Post
    I believe Birdhosting tested something similar to this and they were able to get 600 MBps write/read throughput (though I may be mistaken).
    Point 19 here: http://doc.3tera.com/AppLogic30/Rele...mitations.html
    The maximum network throughput between appliances running on different servers is 3.8Gbps when using a 10G backbone
    When using a 10G backbone, the maximum throughput that can be achieved between appliances running on different servers is 3.8Gbps
    That would be plenty in most cases though.
    Quote Originally Posted by FHDave View Post
    And yes, I was told you can do IOPS metering per VM. You need to hack into it, but it's doable.
    Meetering is cool, I think that IOPS will be a currency like ram/cpu soon. But the real magic comes in guaranteeing IOPS to certain VM's/clients - QoS stuff. Doable?
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
    OnApp.com + Cloud.net & CDN.net

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostmind View Post
    We liked the idea of Applogic tremendously. The interface was lacking, especially for clients. To do what we wanted, we needed to also purchase a 3rd party front end and that was very pricey. But what we couldn't get over was the disk performance. Applogic sent us patches and we got conference calls with their engineers, their clients and so on. The level of support there was amazing BUT the performance was poor.
    This has been my take/very limited experience with Applogic so far as well.

    I do hope someone with significantly more real-world production-environment Applogic experience will chime in and shed some light on some of the questions/speculations in this thread.
    Thanks,

    Brendan Diaz
    Connect: linkedin.com/in/brendandiaz

  16. #41
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    the only reason i havent looked at OnApp much is because anyone using amd cpus is screwed amd cores cost 50% of intel cores when you build a system but then you get killed by OnApp for software.

    sucks if your using amd and OnApp seem their pricing is built for people that use intel.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberhouse View Post
    the only reason i havent looked at OnApp much is because anyone using amd cpus is screwed amd cores cost 50% of intel cores when you build a system but then you get killed by OnApp for software.

    sucks if your using amd and OnApp seem their pricing is built for people that use intel.
    Contact them directly, they might be willing to work with you (especially if you have a LARGE deployment).
    Thanks,

    Brendan Diaz
    Connect: linkedin.com/in/brendandiaz

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by cyberhouse View Post
    the only reason i havent looked at OnApp much is because anyone using amd cpus is screwed amd cores cost 50% of intel cores when you build a system but then you get killed by OnApp for software.

    sucks if your using amd and OnApp seem their pricing is built for people that use intel.
    People using AMD kind of get screwed anyway : P Sure you get twice as many cores per dollar, but each core only has 40% of the performance, so your bang for the buck is worse even before you factor in license costs.
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  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by FHDave View Post
    How poor was your drive performance?
    I don't have the numbers here, but it was significantly worse than a single local drive. Max throughput was something like 60mb/s or less.

    Quote Originally Posted by FHDave View Post
    We will be setting up 10 nodes grid, 6x900 GB SAS 10K/node in RAID0 using Dell PERC H700 and 10Gbps backend. That should give us some awesome performance. I believe Birdhosting tested something similar to this and they were able to get 600 MBps write/read throughput (though I may be mistaken).

    And yes, I was told you can do IOPS metering per VM. You need to hack into it, but it's doable.

    BTW, what 3rd party front end do you use?
    http://scaleup.it/ was who they put us in touch with for a front end solution. It seemed like a great product but the pricing was more than we were willing to pay. Looks like they've kind of changed their biz model now...

    And Birdhosting was one of their clients they got us in touch with I believe. Good people, very helpful. I believe they are using infiniband though. And Applogic doesn't actually support infiniband, you have to hack support in and then you're on your own.

    I still really like the concept behind Applogic.
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  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan Diaz View Post
    This has been my take/very limited experience with Applogic so far as well.

    I do hope someone with significantly more real-world production-environment Applogic experience will chime in and shed some light on some of the questions/speculations in this thread.
    A few of their clients seem to be quite happy with the performance they get from their Applogic clouds. But I got the sense that these clients fell into 2 groups. The first was the group who don't have resource intensive clients and thus never really cared beyond the product actually working. And the second group being comfortable spending a lot of time hacking Applogic to make it work (Like Birdhosting & their custom infiniband setup).
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  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by funkywizard View Post
    People using AMD kind of get screwed anyway : P Sure you get twice as many cores per dollar, but each core only has 40% of the performance, so your bang for the buck is worse even before you factor in license costs.
    Hehe, my magny cours test server is now my ubersmith box. Massive overkill but I can't use it for anything else. My Intel setups just make so much more sense. But AMD vs Intel war likely deserves it's own thread
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkywizard View Post
    People using AMD kind of get screwed anyway : P Sure you get twice as many cores per dollar, but each core only has 40% of the performance, so your bang for the buck is worse even before you factor in license costs.
    Let me give you some perspectives. According to http://www.anandtech.com/show/5553/t...-for-servers/6, dual Opteron 6276 performs almost the same as dual Intel X5650 or dual Intel E5-2660.

    Dell PowerEdge R715
    Dual AMD Opteron 6174 (32 cores, 2.3 GHz/core)
    8x8 GB memory
    6x600 GB SAS 10K drives
    PERC H700 512 MB cache
    230W CPU TDP
    list price: $7934
    discounted price: $4363.7

    Dell PowerEdge R710
    Dual Intel X5660 (24 threads, 2.53 GHz/thread) --> can't configure X5650 from Dell
    8x8 GB memory
    6x600 GB SAS 10K drives
    PERC H700 512 MB cache
    160W CPU TDP
    list price: $8780
    discounted price: $4829
    (+10.66% more expensive)

    Dell PowerEdge R720
    Dual Intel E5-2660 (32 threads, 2.2 GHz/thread)
    6x600 GB SAS 10K drives
    PERC H710 512 MB cache
    190W CPU TDP
    list price: $10815
    Discounted price: $7570.5
    (+73.49% more expensive)

    I think, at least for our situation, the Opteron makes sense. We will simply assign more core per VM. And since we use Applogic, we pay by socket, not by cores. I think OnApp is the only one virtualization platform out there that charges you by cores. And guess what, your solution will be more expensive even if you stay with Intel CPUs, as Intel is ramping up its cores number too ....
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostmind View Post
    I don't have the numbers here, but it was significantly worse than a single local drive. Max throughput was something like 60mb/s or less.
    I think you should RAID your hard drives on each node. RAID0 is good. That way all drives will act as one, and Applogic does not need to address each drive separately.


    Quote Originally Posted by lostmind View Post
    And the second group being comfortable spending a lot of time hacking Applogic to make it work (Like Birdhosting & their custom infiniband setup).
    Is Birdhosting really using infiniband? I thought they simply use 10G fiber switch/NICs?

    Anyway, you don't need to custom hack an infiniband setup if you want 10G. We are going the 10G fiber switch/NICs setup for the backbone.
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  24. #49
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    AppLogic 3.1 can do disk striping, which will improve performance. Though some opt to do that with a RAID controller instead of in software.

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by FHDave View Post
    I think you should RAID your hard drives on each node. RAID0 is good. That way all drives will act as one, and Applogic does not need to address each drive separately.
    They did tell us not to raid it. We did try adding in adaptec cards but like I said, to no avail.


    Quote Originally Posted by FHDave View Post
    Is Birdhosting really using infiniband? I thought they simply use 10G fiber switch/NICs?

    Anyway, you don't need to custom hack an infiniband setup if you want 10G. We are going the 10G fiber switch/NICs setup for the backbone.
    I'm not sure if it was birdhosting. Hate to be spreading rumours if I am wrong. 40gbps infiniband sure would be fun though.

    10gbps ethernet switching from arista is much more affordable now as well.

    I hope Applogic works well for you. I nearly bought licenses just a few weeks back myself, simply due to the discounts they are handing out. Thought it would be a good way to test things and maybe even build out a few projects on, but in the end just didn't pull the trigger.
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