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06-28-2012, 09:53 PM #76IOFLOOD.com -- We Love Servers
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06-28-2012, 10:04 PM #77Web Hosting Master
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How I feel after reading this thread: http://images.cheezburger.com/comple...50db85fbd0.jpg
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06-28-2012, 10:39 PM #78Disabled
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It would be best to rent instead of going colo at first. You will incur a bigger initial loss if you go colo. Datacenters cost millions of dollars to maintain. You can rent a dedicated server that's a quad core for around $100/month these days(Even A Dual Core or A Atom for Even Cheaper) and sell it for a bigger profit every month depending on the data center you use.
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06-29-2012, 12:34 AM #79Web Hosting Master
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Last edited by nokia3310; 06-29-2012 at 12:47 AM.
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06-29-2012, 12:37 AM #80Web Hosting Master
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i am sure you are calculating price of brand new hardware/server but when did webhosts/datacenters start every customer with brand new servers?
With the sub-par servers that are overpriced everywhere...i will still beat 3 months on leased with same server to be colocated...mediatemple or not
With this server for $250/$300? Please tell me what webhost will rent it out for $300/6 = $50 or $300/10 = $30 monthly. Maybe extreme case but add your ifs and buts...and i will beat leased pricing for that server
2 x Intel Xeon L5420
16GB ECC RAM
2 x 250GB SATALast edited by nokia3310; 06-29-2012 at 12:41 AM.
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06-29-2012, 12:46 AM #81Web Hosting Master
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Superb Houston/Los Angeles Colocation: LAYERHOST.COM https://www.layerhost.com/colocation
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06-29-2012, 12:47 AM #82Web Hosting Master
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Superb Houston/Los Angeles Colocation: LAYERHOST.COM https://www.layerhost.com/colocation
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06-29-2012, 01:34 AM #83Web Hosting Master
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06-29-2012, 08:47 AM #84Web Hosting Master
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I think you are not understanding the whole picture.
That old crap is only available for purchase on ebay now for that price exactly because it went off-lease now after 3-4 years of existence and thus people who got them brand new in lots returned this kind of server to the leasing companies (no reason to pay FMV or $1 buyout for stuff that people don't want to buy or is not profitable/sellable/marketable anymore). Before the 3 year mark you could only buy these brand new or used for a high price. The price cycle for those were the same $2-3k brand new, then costs in fact increased (as the resources became scarce after E55xx and E56xx were launched as well as DDR3) to a point that it was not worth to buy brand new E54xx nor used E54xx at 20-40% less than original price. Now that they are junk, they aren't worth anything (and obviously those hard drives cannot be trusted).
If you also notice, the majority of those L5420 offers (to stay on the same comparison line) is of Supermicros with workstation-feature motherboards (not server-grade). They don't come with or are capable of IPMI (so you have to pocket out another $300 for a Lantronix Spider device to cover for it). Or in some rare cases, Dell C-series with AMT. These initial Dell C series were a custom order and have some problems or issues like no expansion slot, no SAS support (RAID controller is embedded or SATA only), no exact drivers, and there were reports of some crashes on the initial batches/series of Dell C-series boxes.
With the exception of Softlayer that still markets this old junk as brand new servers with brand new price (I wonder why they don't get rid of them at some point), mostly everyone on the market is selling this config for $50-80/month now.
Don't forget also that a brand new E3-12xx will use between 0.85 and 1A. That is a cost of around $15/month. Yet these old **** that have not even half of the capacity of this new E3, uses 2.5A ( about $37.50/month just in power, a $22.50/month difference). There is also other math "hidden" like: a power circuit can have only 16 or 24A and you do have a limit of power per rack, and you have installation fees for power circuits as well as PDU purchase costs.
The other variable is: you don't get a brand new server when you rent this at current price from a company, but you for a fact know how they did their plans? Pricing has a component based on server lifetime cycle, expected expenses and profits. If they want to amortize the purchase costs (the original $2500, not the current depreciated value) in 36 or 60 months in order to offer a better monthly price (or simply a more solid business plan), the rental price will need to be the same whether today or in 36 (60) months until the machine is either EOL'd or recycled or taken offline (and then sold for these $250-300 on ebay).
Think again.
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06-29-2012, 01:29 PM #85
Actually the dual L5420's I heard use something like 1.5a, which is of course still a lot more than an E3, but not too extreme. And looking on cpubenchmark.net, the dual L5420 also benches similarly to an E3, although it takes twice as many cpu cores to do it.
In many cases these L5420's are a great deal, so long as you don't need IPMI, and that holds whether you're renting or colocating. Of course naturally, even a year ago, this was not available at anything close to this price, so the story was much different.IOFLOOD.com -- We Love Servers
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06-29-2012, 01:40 PM #86Web Hosting Master
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Yes, the L versions are lower power, I forgot that. Usual E5420s (no L) are 2.5A. These might be between 1.5 and 2A.
Then you have lower speed and thousand times more expensive memory (DDR2 FBDIMM versus DDR3), and also double the costs on licensing (if using MS Windows, MS SQL Server, or Oracle, as they are priced by sockets - MS - or even by cores - Oracle; or OnApp for another software scenario)...
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06-29-2012, 01:48 PM #87Web Hosting Master
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There's a simple way to calculate your current:
Are you on 110V? Then every 110 watts = 1 amp.
Are you on 220V? Then every 220 watts = 1 amp.
So a server that consumes 220 watts on a 110-volt line is drawing 2 amps. "Average" current draw is as varied as "average" server config, so there's no universal answer for everyone. *MOST* single-CPU servers will use well under 3 amps, and *MANY* will use under 2 amps. Some will fall under 1 amp, but 110 watts isn't much to play with. An E3-1230 (80W) with a single 7200-RPM SATA drive (6-10W) will almost certainly be under 1A under full load ... but add power supply inefficiency, case fans, CPU fan, memory sticks, graphics, attached peripherals, expansion cards, LEDs, etc, and you are likely to creep over 1A.
If this is your first build, consider getting a Kill-A-Watt. They accurately measure watts & amps of whatever is plugged into them, and only cost about $20. Load your server up with N instances of Prime95, turn off the fan speed control, and let it run for 10 minutes. You'll get a much more accurate picture of how much power your server will draw under full load. Here: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16882715001
Otherwise, it's all educated guesswork.The world would be a better place if people drank better coffee.
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06-29-2012, 01:51 PM #88
Those numbers are close but not strictly true due to Power Factor. Power Factor is just that -- a factor of the power used to the "apparent" power. So if your particular gear has a power factor of 0.85 (which is typical for servers), then the watts used is actually 0.85 times amps times volts. In the case of 120v power and 1a and 0.85 power factor, your wattage will actually be 102 watts of power used, not 120 watts. Some of the more expensive PDUs will measure all of these things separately (amps, volts, watts, and power factor), whereas most of the less expensive ones will simply tell you amps.
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06-29-2012, 01:55 PM #89Web Hosting Master
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You are 100% correct. I was trying to keep things simple. My philosophy is to always over-budget and over-build. I'd rather budget for a 3A server and discover it's only using 2A than the other way around.
The Kill-A-Watt also measures power factor. It's really an invaluable tool for everyday life for geeks like us. I know the current draw of every outlet in my home, much to the annoyance of my girlfriend.The world would be a better place if people drank better coffee.
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06-29-2012, 01:58 PM #90IOFLOOD.com -- We Love Servers
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06-29-2012, 03:48 PM #91WHT Addict
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I didn't measure it myself but my dual L5420 is only billed to me at one amp. IPMI is great but if you don't need it these servers are a great value if you buy or rent.
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06-30-2012, 09:02 AM #92Web Hosting Master
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06-30-2012, 10:50 AM #93Web Hosting Master
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So what if used from ebay?
Do hosts order brand new servers for every customer?
I know even top reputable hosts still using pentium and atom processors with old as hell tower cases...so i am yet to get your point here. Some hosts dare not even show pictures of their datacenters and keep them top secret so no one knows the type of servers they use.Superb Houston/Los Angeles Colocation: LAYERHOST.COM https://www.layerhost.com/colocation
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06-30-2012, 11:01 AM #94Web Hosting Master
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When we go through equipment replacement cycles, we don't throw away the servers, we sell them and I'm sure the new owner gets more years of good service from them. There's nothing wrong with buying used servers-- depending on the type of services and clients you host.
Hosting the website for a local restaurant creates a different set of requirements than, for example, hosting a mission critical app for an organization with 500 employees. Older equipment is fine for the former, but unacceptable for the latter.
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06-30-2012, 02:32 PM #95Eternal Member
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The thing with (some, not all) used servers is you'll often find that even if performance is decent the ratio of power usage on those machines to the actual performance you get is pretty bad. For example, a Xeon E3 box would be MUCH better than the above config in terms of efficiency and performance. And it would maybe cost $800 to build with comparable RAM/HD (maybe less in bulk). You do save money going with the used box, but for many applications the cost of the new box is totally justifiable.
Also, to the OP, the colo provider you're using seems to have pretty low prices ($40 per U and 1TB included is unheard of in a lot of markets). Here in NY (although not the fairest example, since this is an expensive market) you'd have to triple that to get something in Manhattan - double for something outside. Then you're not factoring in any remote hands or other costs incurred. It actually IS sometimes cheaper to get a dedicated server.Last edited by layer0; 06-30-2012 at 02:37 PM.
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06-30-2012, 03:11 PM #96Backup Guru
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If we're talking about per-U colo, chances are that the provider is just a tenant in a larger data center. Most big DCs won't touch per-U colo, because it's not worth their time.
I'd say. There have been a lot of comparisons in this thread between cheap colo and expensive rental. Let's compare apples to apples.Scott Burns, President
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06-30-2012, 05:54 PM #97Web Hosting Master
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06-30-2012, 06:18 PM #98Eternal Member
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Do you have an example where this works out?
Colo is usually not cheaper initially, but rather it becomes cheaper over a long-term period. You could also finance the hardware to avoid having to pay upfront costs, but even then I've still seen plenty of cases where renting makes more sense, and that's why so many people still do it.
Of course I would imagine they have/had a custom deal, but I am pretty sure HostGator just rents from SoftLayer (just an example) despite their size. There are good reasons why they are doing that.
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06-30-2012, 09:03 PM #99Backup Guru
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Scott Burns, President
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06-30-2012, 09:28 PM #100
Although true, it wouldn't be an unreasonable comparison in terms of "apples to apples". One would assume that the service quality of a company's single server colocation, at least in terms of network, support, power redundancy, cooling, and so forth, would be extremely similar for both their colo and dedicated offerings. So although it's true that a given host may overcharge for one service and undercharge for the other, at the very least, you are comparing services of equal quality.
Along those lines, the kinds of hosts who offer sub $100 / mo single server colo also tend to offer extremely inexpensive dedicated servers, and those who offer > $100 / mo single server colo tend to offer more expensive dedicated servers. Given this, although it's certainly possible to find outliers in the data, I would propose that it's a reasonable starting point.
FDCServers.net:
Colocation package 1: $39 / mo, 10mbps unmetered, 1u, 1 network drop, 5 ips, no software included
Colocation package 4: $79 / mo, 100mbps unmetered, 4u or tower, 10 ips, no software included
Colocation package 5: $399 / mo, 1gbps unmetered, 4u or tower, 10 ips, no software included
Intel Server 5: $169 / mo, 10mbps unmetered, Dual Xeon 5410 (8 cores, 2.33ghz) 16gb ram, 1tb drive.
100 meg unmetered +$30, 1gbps unmetered +$130
So at FDC at least, the price difference for something fairly similar to that "$250 ebay server", to rent it, is $130 / mo more for 10mbps, $120 / mo more for 100mbps, or $100 cheaper for 1gbps.
So on the low end on bandwidth, for a provider that charges dramatically less for colo than most other places, for a specific server you happen to be able to get for almost nothing, colo is cheaper pretty quick, although not at 1gbps.
Take another server at FDC:
Dual E5-2620 Xeon with 32gb ram, 2x1.5tb drives, 10mbps, $414 / mo, 100mbps @ $464, 1gbps @ $564
You could colocate the same thing for the same prices above, but it's worth keeping in mind that this is a piece of hardware that costs a little over $2000 up front, so saving $370 / mo at 10mbps, $380 / mo at 100mbps, or $160 / mo at 1gbps, is not a surefire bet. Especially for the 1gbps unmetered, plan, I don't think I want to wait 14 months for my colocation investment to pay itself back.
Now, I happen to use FDC as an example because I used to rent there and I used to colocate there (still have one box there actually), and I remember them being a particularly good deal for colocation. There aren't too many places where it makes sense to even run the numbers on this kind of thing. A friend of mine has been offered a dual E5-2620 with 64gb ram and SSDs for $180 / mo + $400 setup fee. That's absurdly low, the ROI on that is something like 14 months. In that situation I would rather save my money and rent servers instead of colocate, because the extra cash I save up front can be used to grow my business.IOFLOOD.com -- We Love Servers
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