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  1. #76
    You're right, there were plenty of mom-and-pop web hosts in the 90's that didn't offer 24/7 support that now own 3 corner stores (did I confuse something here? doubtful).

    I'll assume you weren't describing anyone at Touch Support as lacking the drive and motivation to shake their *** when they *** and with that assumption, I'll go ahead and leave the prescribed response out of this post.

    Additionally, not every support tech can run a business and not every business owner can provide technical support. But now that I've been enlightened, I'll never go into the hardware business unless I can figure out how to build/engineer/design/market/stock/ship hardware. Because then I might have to outsource for all those jobs or shake my *** for 10 years in hopes to hire 3 local people.
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  2. #77
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    Originally posted by ddihosting
    You open a competative hosting company that doesn't offer 24/7 support and see how it does.
    i'm about to. and it will do just fine.

    When you do and you can show that you are gaining 5-10 sales a day and paying all your bills, your wages, and surviving off of it, come back and tell us. Let us kow how you are handling all your employees wages, etc...
    okay. then what? you'll admit you're wrong? i already know you're wrong, so that isn't much of a prize.

    In the meantime. Those of us in this industry have seen it and know how it works. What you think is a bunch of BS.
    oh, yawn yawn yawn. i have been "in this industry" since 1996, so untwist your panties, take a pill and calm down. you do not know more about how it works than i do. you do not know more about how it works successfully than i do.

    you're all wound up about outsourcing support because you feel guilty, and that's understandable. but don't turn your guilt around on me. it's misdirected.
    datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?

  3. #78
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    I don't feel guilty at all. Actually I feel it was a smart and sensible business move.

    I am angry though over some fool like you thinking you know it all, when in reality you are almost 10 years behind the times (1996 I believe, maybe even 86).

    Either or, with that kind of attitude I think it is time to unsubscribe.

  4. #79
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    Originally posted by TS-Dave
    I'll assume you weren't describing anyone at Touch Support as lacking the drive and motivation to shake their *** when they ***
    no i wasn't. i don't know anyone at Touch Suport so i wouldn't presume to comment on their work ethic, or the shaking of their dicks.

    the point of my post was to disprove your "you're going to be hard-pressed to staff your start-up completely in-house" statement, which is absurd.
    datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?

  5. #80
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    Originally posted by ddihosting
    I don't feel guilty at all. Actually I feel it was a smart and sensible business move.
    of course you do.

    I am angry though over some fool like you thinking you know it all...
    anger is a strange reaction to a fool.
    datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?

  6. #81
    1996? mmboy...do you know what a Timex Sinclair 100 is?

  7. #82
    woops...no coffee yet....correction a Timex Sinclair 1000 is?

  8. #83
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    Originally posted by TS-Dave
    I sincerely disagree. What he(or she) is stating, then, is that unless every small business owner can find a few hundred k in startup capital, he or she shouldn't be allowed to start a 'real' business? Or perhaps, there shouldn't be any small businesses???

    If I've misunderstood you, please correct me, but it occurs to me that venture capital for the Internet world isn't as easy to garner as in the past and unless you plan to find people to work for 2.00/hr., you're going to be hard-pressed to staff your start-up completely in-house.

    Or do you suppose everyone that isn't Interland should just throw up their hands and close their doors??

    Ok. Clarification and divine provenance shall be thine. But really, here it is as concisely as is possible:
    1. I held Interland out as merely the most abject example of failed strategy ( roll up acquisition, direct sales, you name it) in this business. Hundreds of millions in write offs, millions in market cap erased every quarter. They'll be BK very soon. For those with the time, read up on their sordid exploits, it's very enlightening. As to VC capital, you're right on, no sane banker would invest in such a cluttered market. ROI is tenuous at best. As I mentioned before, the costs associated with getting beyond the start up level (0-20k) customers is prohibitive. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't enter this market for all the tea in china- but then again, my goals lie in continuing to grow a mm $ business. Some folks are happy with a handful of clients and no prospects of fame and fortune. The internet is not a panacea for human inadequacy.

    2. Small business. Believe it or not, I was trying to be helpful here. Of course everyone has the right to start a business. I'll go out on limb here and say that said businesses are started with the intent of growth and financial upside. The stark reality here is that any hosting business that doesn't understand the basic precepts of growth in this market is doomed before they start. The build it and they will come concept is woefully flawed. The "find a niche" is another good one, unless you want to spend the rest of your business career hosting your local lions club. Does anyone really believe that there are 20k+ local business niches? To succeed in this market requires reach, competitive advantage and brand. All very costly by the way. One of cheapest, proven and most essential growth factors is customer referral. Outsourcing customer service at the startup phase negates the ability to connect with customers- when a customers' problem is solved, a bond is created; if it's solved by anyone outside of your company, it's hard, nay impossible to make the connection. For all the technology (which should be transparent btw) we're still talking about people as customers and their expectations of service level) This is a key kernel of customer referral-Give it to someone else at the start up stage and you're dead before you start the race. Speaking of the race, the aforementioned 10-15 signups a day wouldn't keep the lights on around here. Companies like hostrocket and others on this board in the 30k range are small businesses. The rest aren't even in the game yet. And here's the rub, given the growth barriers and costs to achieve brand awareness and sales, most likely they never will. Sad, but true. So can anyone get into the game? Yes. Should they? Depends upon whether they want to be anything more than a statistic.

    My real beef with startups (most anyway) however, is that they try to look like established businesses to deceive prospects rather than developing some form of differentiation and bringing something new to the market. I'll say it clearly, IMO real hosting companies have data centers, NOCs, disaster recovery, business continuity and redundancy capabilities, along with branded custom websites, and at least 10k customers. Most, if not all of the real hosts started small. They're here today because they created small data centers, cs groups, and developed service architectures that scaled. They proved themselves. Following proven growth models can be rewarding… The success of some of these hosts allowed them to spawn reselling, Will there always be a market for cheap, resold hosting as business model? Sure, but as the market grows and the small business users become a larger % of the demand side, criticality of hosting services will increase, and the bar will be out of reach to shared, resold providers.

    Global economics. Whew, this is a toughie and I don't feel like typing today. (No I don't own stock in buggy whips) Without doubt our economy is changing.. but it's an evolutionary change (as it always has been) a synthesis of old and new. The internet is merely an enabling infrastructure, it changes some things and underscores the need preserve others. Outsourcing will be a part of future economic models without doubt. But, and it's a big but, those that believe that the fundamentals of business growth can be statistically managed with out factoring the behavioral aspects of the buy side of the market are either inexperienced or misinformed.. or both. A good example is amazon. They have migrated and integrated many if not all of the proven customer satisfaction, retention and service methodologies into their online matrix. They have integrated cs into their business and order flow, good move. So, once more while I'm still young, it's not where, but who is conducting your service, and how

    As mentioned previously, we'll have to wait and see. Fortunately I have the luxury of staying power and future hindsight.

  9. #84
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    I forgot, here's some interesting reading vis a vis outsourcing- from both sides of the fence.. The actual costs, risks and potential as a component of business strategy. The articles are of course owned by their respective copyright owners and should not be reproduced in whole or part without their owners consent
    cheers.

    http://www.computerworld.com/careert...,83169,00.html
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4710299/
    http://sify.com/finance/fullstory.php?id=13417994
    http://www.katelundy.com.au/savings.htm
    http://www.csoonline.com/read/110103/outsourcing.html
    http://www.mcpressonline.com/mc/.6ae8fdef!sectionID=.5bfbae3f

  10. #85
    Back to the original topic of this thread...I just talked to Roj at Tripod today. Great guy and they really have their act together.

  11. #86
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    Originally posted by cowabunga
    real hosting companies don't need to outsource.
    need anything else be said? otherwise you may just as well get your servers automated at the same time for sign-ups (no - offense but id be a good way to run a hosting company if your really rich)
    Computer Steroids - Full service website development solutions since 2001.
    (612)234-2768 - Locally owned and operated in the Minneapolis, Minnesota area.

  12. #87
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    integrityhost, please expand on your comment "they really have their act together" this was the purpose of the original thread to get more info about tripodsupport, as not many people here seem to have used them. Thanks.

  13. #88
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    sgwilks,

    Tripod Support have people who speak good english, they help your customers out, they are polite and humble + they are there 24-7 what else do you need?

    Larry and Datapimp, you both have your respective opinions as do other people. Someone like Larry might think its a great extension to the business to have 24-7 support (which it is, Go Larry!) and someone like Datapimp might think its not.

    As more and more hosts come up every now and then, it is vital for a business to take care of its customers by providing all means of support, back in the late 90's this industry wasnt so saturated as it is now, so i believe providing true 24-7 support unlike companies who say 24-7 just to their customers' dismay will help a host satisfy their customers. The rate of 18 year old hosts and people starting out in teens (no offence to anyone ) has increased so these people and along with working people who cannt really provide full support require companies like Tripod Support, Touch Support, to help ease their burden and at the same time ensure customer satisfaction.

    Thank You.
    "Web Hosting is not just about selling space, it is about facilitating customers needs with your plans and supporting the customer for a long lasting mutually beneficial relationship."- Yaser

  14. #89
    Do you think it's unethical to not mention to customers that you outsource support to companies such as Tripod Support or Touch Support?

  15. #90
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    Originally posted by rossko
    Do you think it's unethical to not mention to customers that you outsource support to companies such as Tripod Support or Touch Support?
    I think unethical would be no support. Why would you consider outsourced support unethical to you customers? Who's writing the ethics of business these days and where are they written?

    Osborne Sputnik

  16. #91
    I think outsourcing support is perfectly ethical, especially if oursourcing support gives them better service for their money. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

    What I meant by the question was whether it is unethical to outsource support and not tell your customers that you are outsourcing support. Like, do customers have a right to be told that you are outsourcing support? I know that many companies that outsource support to tripod support but do not tell their customers that support is not handled in-house.

  17. #92
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    Originally posted by rossko
    I think outsourcing support is perfectly ethical, especially if oursourcing support gives them better service for their money. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

    What I meant by the question was whether it is unethical to outsource support and not tell your customers that you are outsourcing support. Like, do customers have a right to be told that you are outsourcing support? I know that many companies that outsource support to tripod support but do not tell their customers that support is not handled in-house.
    I think it's purely political right now. Outsourcing is the yelling of fire in a crowded theater for votes this year. It's only unethical if the general public thinks it's unethical, and right now this is a major topic the politicians are tossing around. Should car manufacturers have to list every part of a new car that was manufactured in Mexico or Canada? How about your PC. Should HP or Dell have to slap on a sticker listing all the components that came from Asia? We've lost jobs to other countries for decades now; TV and radio manufacturing to the Japanese in the 60's. Oil workers to the Middle East. The Steel industry. I could go on and on. So what happened? Did the US fall into the dregs of an economc collapse? Nope. Our economy soared since 1980 as completely NEW industries were created. Now we lead the world in technology, software, communications, aerospace, etc. So now we have tech services going to India, and this year the politicians are screaming that it's not right. Well, that is nothing more than good old fashioned protectionism. Protectionism DOES NOT WORK in a global economy...but it can garner votes. A year ago Bush slapped tariffs on European steel imports. The idea was to force steel buyers to purchase from US companies. So...the EU threatened to slap tariffs on all sorts of of US exports to counter. The economic repecussions would have been much more devestating in national job losses than from some steelworkers. So, Bush backpedaled and recinded the steel tarrifs...and now you don't hear a word about them in the news. Protectionism DOES NOT WORK in a global economy.

    You create a business for one purpose. To make money. You don't create a business to supply jobs for others. Job creation is a byproduct of a business operation. An employee (job) is also THE highest expense for any business. Your business model should be one of trying to create the highest gross revenues with the lowest expenses. Outsourcing is a way to achieve this. I expect more and more service outsourcing to occur in the next decade. I expect it will be an excepted way of doing business, the same way the public now gobbles up Sonys, Panasonics, Nokias and other products that several decades ago created the same furor that outsourcing to India is now creating.

    Osborne Sputnik

  18. #93
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    Originally posted by Oz Sputnik
    An employee (job) is also THE highest expense for any business.
    which survey, study or report do you base that blanket statement on?
    datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?

  19. #94
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    Originally posted by datapimp.com
    which survey, study or report do you base that blanket statement on?
    Good question. Hmmmm, after 25 years of making monthly withholding deposits, quarterly 941 returns, paying State Unemployment "contributions", Federal Unemployment, Workers Comp, managing any employee health/dental/401k, meeting with the account to go over the monthly P&L and Balance Sheet, a couple of articles here and there in BusinessWeek and the Wall St. Journal I read reminding me how expensive employees are, I'd say that blanket is an old, worn, favorite one of mine.

    Look, datapimp. I'm not arguing with you. I take it you're young and enthusiastic. I admire your ideals. Good luck to you. If you can provide jobs for others AND keep bread on the table for your family, so much the better. I hope you are a successful entrepreneur for a long time.
    Osborne Sputnik

  20. #95
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    I like the spirit you have datapimp of keep american jobs to americans and employing people, yes i do wish that you become very successfull in doing that but if you think out of the box and see why these big companies outsource you will come to see that its all about cutting costs and gaining higher profitability by any means! these corps. have lots of shareholders and critics to please so they need to take every measure to ensure profitability, outsourcing is not new but yes is rapidly increasing because the process of sending out jobs has been simplified. Look at this way, cutting costs to increase profitability and not firing people or shifiting people to increase profitability. No matter how much we sit and argue with each other, outsourcing is here to stay, so unless as an employee you are very well qualified and hardworker more likely your job will be shifted overseas (talking about IT related professions and some others too) and as a customer you are ready to pay high prices watch the upward trend, check the attachment

    Thanks, Yaser.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails outsourcing.jpg  
    "Web Hosting is not just about selling space, it is about facilitating customers needs with your plans and supporting the customer for a long lasting mutually beneficial relationship."- Yaser

  21. #96
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    Originally posted by Oz Sputnik
    ...25 years of making monthly withholding deposits, quarterly 941 returns, paying State Unemployment "contributions", Federal Unemployment, Workers Comp, managing any employee health/dental/401k, meeting with the account to go over the monthly P&L and Balance Sheet...
    the fact that salaries are the major expense for your small business is all well and good, but you said, "An employee (job) is also THE highest expense for any business." since you don't run every business on earth, and you are basing your statement on your personal experience, you can't say that.

    Look, datapimp. I'm not arguing with you. I take it you're young and enthusiastic.
    incorrect. i am old and enthusiastic. what makes me different than many of the people here is i won't turn my back on the people in my city just put a few more bucks in my pocket.

    say all you want about business models and the "global economy" - i won't spout BS to assuage guilt. i'll just do the right thing and let the chips fall where they may.
    datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?

  22. #97
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    So your trying to outsourcing is not the right thing & companies who do it are guilty?

    The right thing in your opinion is different from the right think in my opinion or anyone elses.

    For major corps the right thing is outsourcing, when they can find someone cheaper and equally capable in the other end of the world then why not?

    Turning your back on people? are you running some kind of social service or co-op? A private business's major objective is profitability. If the business can be profitable by outsourcing then yes they will do that!
    "Web Hosting is not just about selling space, it is about facilitating customers needs with your plans and supporting the customer for a long lasting mutually beneficial relationship."- Yaser

  23. #98
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    [Turning your back on people? are you running some kind of social service or co-op? A private business's major objective is profitability. If the business can be profitable by outsourcing then yes they will do that! [/B][/QUOTE]

    OK...I just checked datapimp.com. Nevermind. I think his market is a weeee bit different than the one I'm going after. I know the filters I have set on our home computer for my family would reject about 95% of those email addys, although a couple are funny.
    Osborne Sputnik

  24. #99
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    Hahaha i just checked the site! datapimp you really got a niche there you dont need to outsource..you will get volunteers! lol
    Last edited by Yaser; 06-15-2004 at 02:02 AM.
    "Web Hosting is not just about selling space, it is about facilitating customers needs with your plans and supporting the customer for a long lasting mutually beneficial relationship."- Yaser

  25. #100
    I do agree with Yaser

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