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  1. #26
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    At Steadfast Networks we bill per half hour in our Chicago facilities and every 15 minutes in our NYC facility.

    Quote Originally Posted by nokia3310 View Post
    Hmm...not even just cost driven..i mean how many countries have you seen shutting down a datacenter because of a website or going after websites? Very easy..the US...the #1 bully in the world..they just bully everyone into anything...and it gets worse every time..so those are just some added reasons.,..so its not worth the trouble.
    How many datacenters have you seen shutdown by government/police actions? I can't even think of 5. Individual colocation customers maybe but the ones that I can recall were mostly involved in massive criminal cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by nokia3310 View Post
    Well they may be but if you read my response and the message i responded to..you will know its not about healthcare or anything..i just don't want to do anything in the US when it comes to the web...i mean who is strongly behind SOPA? PIPA? i thought so..so as i said..i will pass on the US for that
    You are overgeneralizing support for SOPA/PIPA in the US. The bill itself basically had zero support among anyone other than a few politicians. The bills were killed as a result of massive support AGAINST it.

    Any colocation provider with their own facility is unlikely to get shut down unless they are actively violating U.S. law. If your concern is you as an individual hosting provider being shut down sure that's entirely a possibility. It's no less likely in other countries, it's really all a matter of the types of customers you are hosting as well as your willingness to work with law enforcement.
    Last edited by chrono-it; 02-04-2013 at 10:27 PM. Reason: removed pricing
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokia3310 View Post
    Well ofcourse it depends because not all providers are greedy (thank goodness)...but just pointing out the ones that do...i mean some providers don't even know why they don't get customers sometimes...instead they will be counter-profitable offering deals here and there...aggressively looking for customers...while all they needed to do is be reasonable with their pricing and people will come through

    Little things make big differences..just saying
    I'm sensing a theme here in your last few topics. Anything that is not utter bottom of the barrel priced makes a provider "greedy". People are bringing up some very valid points on why remote hands fee's can appear to be high and you've ignored every one of them.

    I have several racks around the world, with remote hands going for $250+/Hr and I consider it quite fair for the service received. Most providers in that range it's intended for extreme emergencies and when we need highly qualified staff (think MSCE/RHCE/CCNP+ and more), anything else you retain a local consultant to go in on your behalf.

    We've also deployed gear at DC's in the past with free or extreme low rate per hour remote hands and the work done has left much to be desired. Qualified personnel don't work for peanuts.

    That said some providers will bundle XX hours per month with your package, but that cost will be built into your price somewhere.

    Price ranks a little lower on my list of importance when selecting a facility. It is not the single most important thing to a lot of people/companies when selecting providers.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokia3310 View Post
    Don't plan colocating in the US...never have..never will
    Anything that comes to web hosting...i go for everything outside the US
    So i could care less about healthcare or anything for that matter
    Less annoying legal issues too and more privacy hosting outside US.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Suds View Post
    You could hire your own 24x7 team to sit at the data center, vastly lowering your per unit cost of labor. Of course, your total cost will easily exceed $15K/mo. Given this juxtaposition, remote hands rates, even at $250/hr, seem quite reasonable.
    We have worked with a provider that charges $250/hour for their advanced remote hands (anything in regards to routers/switches and anything other than basic hardware reboot/resit etc.) and yet they do an extremely slow job that cause the customer to run away because of the outage on their hardware.

    We also have worked with another datacenter recently and they don't charge for basic remote hands/eyes at all and yet they do a great job and are staffed with polite and truly technical people not just a bunch of low cost labor that has no idea what the difference is between a 1U and 2U server or the brands of dell/hp/supermicro.

    I then realized that its not always the ones that charge a rough amount the best, its all about how smart you are to either allow or disallow a datacenter to take advantage of you.

    to OP, try contracting some very well known colocation providers in WHT and try to close a deal that is all included (basic remote hands either free or one simple monthly fee) so you can be sure of no ripoff chance for the datacenter.

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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokia3310 View Post
    Lets be real here...so you assume most colo customers will be living locally to the datacenter? I mean is that what will justify unfair pricing for remote hand help? Asking that customers be near the datacenter so they don't get cheated?
    I'm not sure where I suggested that all colo customers live next to their datacenter--I suggest you go back and re-read my post again.

    You could either 1) do it yourself if you think it will be cheaper, 2) hire your own staff or 3rd party admin to go to the datacenter for you, 3) contract support with the datacenter on a regular basis so that your cost will be lower, or 4) pay the datacenter their pay-as-you-go rates. Besides, these rates aren't hidden to you--they should be clearly spelled out in your contract.

    The responses you've received here are quite reasonable.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokia3310 View Post
    Well they may be but if you read my response and the message i responded to..you will know its not about healthcare or anything..i just don't want to do anything in the US when it comes to the web...i mean who is strongly behind SOPA? PIPA? i thought so..so as i said..i will pass on the US for that
    I hate to break it to you, the US is actually one of the most tolerant countries to host in. That is unless you wish to host things such as illegal music mirrors or pirated software. Freedom of Speech goes a long way in my case.

    Almost EVERY country monitors internet usage and has laws about what you can host. For example, in many Middle Eastern Countries, it is technically illegal to host a site about blasphemy, where this is permitted in the US.

    Other countries have also attempted to adopt a PIPA/SOPA/ACTA Inspired Law, almost all have failed. The only supporters of these laws were corrupt politicians who were getting kickbacks by music labels.

    Do me a favor, Find me a country without corrupt politicians and I will happy host my websites there.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooreAdmin View Post
    I'm sensing a theme here in your last few topics. Anything that is not utter bottom of the barrel priced makes a provider "greedy". People are bringing up some very valid points on why remote hands fee's can appear to be high and you've ignored every one of them.
    Who said i ignored all of them? Well if i am looking for bottom level provider...do i have the right to? And when i say greedy i damn well know what i am talking about and people who reply understanding where i am coming from understand that...now if you will pay $250+/hour for remote hands like little things like swapping hard drive or connecting some power plugs or ports or anything little..then more power to you

    Quote Originally Posted by SolidShellSecurity View Post
    Less annoying legal issues too and more privacy hosting outside US.
    Thanks for pointing that out..people will deny anything consciously/unconsciously nowadays...whether truth or not
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  8. #33
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    Hi Nokia,

    I've spent the last 3 months searching for a datacenter tech to join our team full time. The process has been mind blowing and eye opening. The costs involved in paying staff, paying taxes, hiring costs, training costs, etc stack up quickly. I already knew this as we have multiple full time staff, however the things you and I as geeks take for granted about hardware knowledge is not all that common. I have an increased amount of respect for our current remote hands. By the time we hire the perfect team member I will have invested over 100 hours of my own time to find the right person, I'm sure.

    Gordon

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokia3310 View Post
    And when i say greedy i damn well know what i am talking about and people who reply understanding where i am coming from understand that...
    I still don't understand where the greedy part is. If it costs the data center $500+/day to keep one entry-level tech on duty 24x7, and only a couple customers per day are utilizing remote hands, then what's a fair price?

    As someone that has used $250/hour remote hands on multiple occasions, I don't find it unreasonable at all. Those techs have to get paid somehow. Of course, I only use it for emergencies, and usually use third party techs from the area for $75-125/hour. Those guys require advanced notice, and either do work at lots of different DCs, or they're doing it on the side for some extra money.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bqinternet View Post
    I still don't understand where the greedy part is.
    NIMBY, not MY responsibility, it should FREE, profit is EVIL, etc . . . take your pick, it all fits in the mindset. It's the new generation attitude, man!

    Then again, trolling is also popular these days.

  11. #36
    Going colo far away from the office means you will depend on remote hands at least for hardware maintenance. You should have a KVM over IP switch to avoid remote hands on a fsck for example. But you will have to pay the price of remote hands.

    I would be more worried with other aspects of remote hands like response time and competence. And expect to pay the price...

    If you're looking for cheap remote hands, you should have researched better before going colo. That's not something you ask afterwards...

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomfrog View Post
    Going colo far away from the office means you will depend on remote hands at least for hardware maintenance. You should have a KVM over IP switch to avoid remote hands on a fsck for example. But you will have to pay the price of remote hands.

    I would be more worried with other aspects of remote hands like response time and competence. And expect to pay the price...

    If you're looking for cheap remote hands, you should have researched better before going colo. That's not something you ask afterwards...
    Yep..i have done a whole bunch of research...being researching for months..i think i am down to 2 providers so far and they are awesome to say the least...when it comes to all what i want
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  13. #38
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    If remote hands are very important to you and you think you'll be needing a lot of work done, then local co-location will usually be much cheaper than anything far away from you once factoring that in.

    But a lot of companies don't need remote hands that frequently, primarily only when something fails. Lots of providers also include X hours per month for free, or even do certain quick/small tasks for free.

    So when you do an actual cost analysis in the end, remote hands shouldn't be that big of a problem, and if they are a big problem then chances are something is very wrong with your hardware/setup.

  14. #39
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    I'm not sure I see the problem. Are there vendors in any industry that bill by the minute instead of an hour or fractions of an hour?

    I know any plumber, electrician or lawyer I've worked with would laugh if I asked for per-minute billing.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ameeriklane View Post
    I'm not sure I see the problem. Are there vendors in any industry that bill by the minute instead of an hour or fractions of an hour?

    I know any plumber, electrician or lawyer I've worked with would laugh if I asked for per-minute billing.
    Well maybe you should wonder why some providers are able to provide free remote hands when its less than 15 minutes and charge $25/30 minutes...so that is an example of a provider that is not greedy.

    People using excuse of not been able to afford 247 technicians..as if they not making profit from their other services in the first place..complaining about how to pay them..maybe you should learn to run a business first then you will realize how to plan to run the business of proving remote hand in an efficient and competitive manner...or you can spend your money and time on frequent deals and promos scorching for customers to leach off of.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokia3310 View Post
    Well maybe you should wonder why some providers are able to provide free remote hands when its less than 15 minutes and charge $25/30 minutes...so that is an example of a provider that is not greedy.

    People using excuse of not been able to afford 247 technicians..as if they not making profit from their other services in the first place..complaining about how to pay them..maybe you should learn to run a business first then you will realize how to plan to run the business of proving remote hand in an efficient and competitive manner...or you can spend your money and time on frequent deals and promos scorching for customers to leach off of.

    Think of it in the eyes of the business. The companies that charge the high prices are usually the ones who provide 24/7 support and almost immediately after you request it. If they are paying their techs $20/hour to sit around for 24 hours, realistically that is closer to $30/hour after covering 1/2 of payroll taxes and unemployment taxes. So they are paying $720/day.

    Those remote techs aren't going to be doing remote hands for more than a couple hours a day, but they have to be available for 24 just in case.

    So if you want remote hands that is going to be available at the drop of a hat at any hour of the day, it is going to cost you.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokia3310 View Post
    People using excuse of not been able to afford 247 technicians..as if they not making profit from their other services in the first place..complaining about how to pay them..maybe you should learn to run a business first then you will realize how to plan to run the business of proving remote hand in an efficient and competitive manner...or you can spend your money and time on frequent deals and promos scorching for customers to leach off of.
    They are not making profit if they are running a "value" el-cheapo service.

    Let's put it in a cost of business perspective:

    One cabinet ~= 25 sq ft
    Raw rental cost per sq ft on shell space (not fitted for datacenter yet): $2/sqft/month in average on a cheap US city

    So, space that cabinet occupies alone: $50/month minumum, more likely $100.

    Decent cabinet cost (brand new, not "used" or ebay style): $2000. Let's say an ROI of 10 months. That's outright $200/month.

    Up so far only in space, you are speaking about $250-300/month just for the cabinet and space it lies within.

    Utility power: $0.08 average cost in the US (not in Chicago, not in NY, not in Los Angeles) - ok, you can have it at 0.06 in Utah or North Carolina but these are exceptions.

    One 20A/120V circuit = 1.92kW usable
    1.92kW * 730h * 0.08 = $112/month from the utility

    Add generator, UPS and air conditioning (and their maintenance and fuel) costs, it will get from 60-100% (depends on PUE) on top of utility price (and that is for maintenance, not even talking about purchase costs for all these expensive equipment and yearly battery swaps). So, for the standard power in a cabinet, you are talking about $225/month in power.

    Let's add the space at $250-300 + 225/mo in power: that's outright $475-525/month in space and power alone.

    Not counting on switches, switchports, cross connect termination equipment/patch panels and connectors and their maintenance, inventory maintaining, and income taxes. And not counting on salaries/staff/personnel.

    You can see around that racks with 20A power and x megs of bandwidth (20, 50, 100) are being sold for $499 all inclusive and sometimes with free rack-and-stack.

    Tell me where is this "greedy, evil" profit you are talking about. The value/cheap market offers no profit at all, it only offers playing games with numbers and underusage or oversubscribing of resources (like the power and bandwidth).

    Now, those who charge $1000/2000 for the same thing (you have other markets where such a cabinet goes $1500+ or even 2k if it is sold to a corporation who doesn't care spending more money for a "label"), can spare the 15 minutes free of tech time for you. You are already paying that in other ways, fixed on the monthly price.

    No one is in this business for charitative reasons...

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokia3310 View Post
    I thought business is all about competitive advantage and ways to be efficient? Who says there will be few remote hand requests monthly? Okay fine what happens if they have thousand customers are they are able to efficiently utilize the 24/7 support staffs and make huge and gigantic profits? Will they send customers some refund for making so much money? Or i guess not but they will claim hey we charge alot because it costs 15k/month if you have yours here? I mean lets be real and stop being in denial and let greediness get in the way.
    Either the staff are underutilized, or the response time suffers. There's no way around it. If the staff are kept busy, it means customers are kept waiting.

    You need to have enough staff to cover peak demand. However, peak demand and trough demand (i.e. 0) are always going to vary greatly, and the average of that difference is roughly how much your staff are underutilized by, and how many times more the remote hands charges are than actual staff's hourly wage. Then there are all the indirect costs, as have been mentioned, as well as maybe some *egads* profit!
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  19. #44
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    Go with a provider that will work with you on the cost then. GIPNetworks has 2+ techs on staff at all times, all of our requests are fulfilled within 15-30 minutes and they've done tons of things for free ranging from racking servers, installing hardware, troubleshooting hardware, and even installing parts into servers.

    Just find the right guys to suit your needs. Often times people pay price for bw + space + power and forget the human element. It sure adds up

  20. #45
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    We hired 2 techs that live nearby the DC and actually work for the DC so we call them and they go in and charge us $25 an hour. The DC does most of the work for free anyway but this is added assurance.

    I am more than happy to pay the bill for some competent help as someone mentioned above

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Broadband Man View Post
    We hired 2 techs that live nearby the DC and actually work for the DC so we call them and they go in and charge us $25 an hour. The DC does most of the work for free anyway but this is added assurance.

    I am more than happy to pay the bill for some competent help as someone mentioned above
    Your DC isn't in NYC, is it? If so, $25/hr is amazing! Could you pm their contact info?
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Broadband Man View Post
    We hired 2 techs that live nearby the DC and actually work for the DC so we call them and they go in and charge us $25 an hour. The DC does most of the work for free anyway but this is added assurance.

    I am more than happy to pay the bill for some competent help as someone mentioned above
    Thanks for the plug...never even heard of them before ever...they look legit judging from their website
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  23. #48
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    I would be causious about any provider that advertised/promised free or very cheap remote hands services. There is no law against building an unsutainable business, and at some point that provider may just dry up and go under. There is no free lunch in this world.

    We are preparing for a heavy snowfall in the northeast today, and I just had this conversation with my co-worker who was complaining that it cost him $115 to have his snowblower tuned up after it hadn't been used in 2 years.


    Did you drain the gas?? No
    Put stabil in the gas?? No

    Try and take the carb apart and fix it yourself? No
    Willing to shovel?? No

    Well $115 seems fair then

    If it was a grossly unfair number, repair shops would have popped up all around town and undercut this number by now.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokia3310 View Post
    Well maybe you should wonder why some providers are able to provide free remote hands when its less than 15 minutes and charge $25/30 minutes...so that is an example of a provider that is not greedy.
    I think that's an example of different business models, that's all.

    Depending on what airline you fly, you may have to pay for your first checked bag, or your 2nd checked bag, or maybe both checked bags are free. However, it may also turn out the airline that charges for checked bags has other benefits -- a lower ticket price, better flight times, etc.

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