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06-06-2004, 11:12 PM #26Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by ddihosting
...there are bills to pay...
we're in Los Angeles, and you can hire a very competent tech support rep for $10 an hour here. five years ago, the starting rate was $15. so what happened?
what happened was companies like pac bell (now SBC), att, and eart***** sending all of their support jobs to India. there were over 600 support reps employed by eart***** alone, and now they are all looking for work. if you put out an ad for a tech support position in LA, even at $10, you get 100 to 150 resumes from qualified people.
since i used to be one of those tech support reps, i tend to come down on the side of the thousands here who are now out of work. when you "save money" by letting Indians do your support, you are taking a job away from someone here.
that may not matter to you now, but if your web hosting company goes belly up and you're out there looking for work, it's going to matter a lot.
blah, blah, blah, and so forth.
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06-07-2004, 01:08 AM #27Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by datapimp.com
since i used to be one of those tech support reps, i tend to come down on the side of the thousands here who are now out of work. when you "save money" by letting Indians do your support, you are taking a job away from someone here.
that may not matter to you now, but if your web hosting company goes belly up and you're out there looking for work, it's going to matter a lot.
I can understand how it feels to be laid off but day by day industries are becoming more competitive and to keep up with the competition they need to cut costs from employees to the infrastructure.
And outsourcing has its pros and cons. A big con is that people get laid off where as a big pro is that for every dollar sent out americans get 1.5$ back.
So if your ready to pay up high prices for services and products, then the big companies wont have to cut much costs because customers are willing to pay. Its human nature to want the best and the cheapest.
What led the companies to start outsourcing? Customers asking for low prices and at the same time quality of product, so what do the companies do? they cant close down because they cant cover costs, they outsource to reduce costs!"Web Hosting is not just about selling space, it is about facilitating customers needs with your plans and supporting the customer for a long lasting mutually beneficial relationship."- Yaser
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06-07-2004, 01:26 AM #28Web Hosting Master
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So if your ready to pay up high prices for services and products, then the big companies wont have to cut much costs because customers are willing to pay. Its human nature to want the best and the cheapest.
What led the companies to start outsourcing? Customers asking for low prices and at the same time quality of product, so what do the companies do? they cant close down because they cant cover costs, they outsource to reduce costs!
Good points..
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06-07-2004, 12:37 PM #29Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by datapimp.com
here's a crazy thought: how about prying some of those dollars loose from your wallet and hiring someone local who needs work?
if the ongoing exodus of jobs to India doesn't bother you, you're not looking at the big picture.
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06-07-2004, 02:57 PM #30WHT Addict
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Originally posted by datapimp.com
since i used to be one of those tech support reps, i tend to come down on the side of the thousands here who are now out of work. when you "save money" by letting Indians do your support, you are taking a job away from someone here.
that may not matter to you now, but if your web hosting company goes belly up and you're out there looking for work, it's going to matter a lot.
blah, blah, blah, and so forth.
Web hosting is a global industry, and I doubt that your customers care what country the person is in that is typing to them in the live chat. I wouldn't either. What really matters is whether the support is getting the job done for your clients.
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06-07-2004, 09:14 PM #31Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by freakysid
what is your "big picture"? Would you be much happier if the people in the developing word stuck to working for nothing in sweat-shops sewing the jeans, t-shirts and sports shoes you wear and buy at dirt prices and leave all the professional higher paying jobs to those in the developed world?
i don't personally wear "sweat-shop...jeans, t-shirts and sports shoes," but it seems to me that the support jobs done for american companies in countries like India are just like the sweat shop clothing jobs. it's people working for an american company for small fraction of what the same job pays here. those companies are not doing it because they are altruistic or have the best interest of their non-US employees at heart. they're doing it to make their stockholders more wealthy that they already are.
if i was an ambitious young guy in India or Mexico i'd probably be trying to get a job at an american company too. i'm not blaming the people doing the job. my beef is with the companies.
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06-07-2004, 09:27 PM #32Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by Yaser
What led the companies to start outsourcing? Customers asking for low prices and at the same time quality of product, so what do the companies do? they cant close down because they cant cover costs, they outsource to reduce costs!
not everyone is cut out to run their own company or work in a nice clean office somewhere. losing the 'outsource-able' jobs is only going to leave us with an increasingly large underclass, with increasingly fewer options.
what do we have for the people who used to work at the auto factories, the electronics and clothing manufacturers, to name just a few industries which are as good as gone from the country? what are you replacing all those lost jobs with? the lunch shift at mcdonalds?
sending all these jobs away to increase profits now is very short-sighted, and future generations are going to look back and ask us why the hell we gave away the keys to the store.
then they're going to stick a gun to your head and steal your Lexus.
but at least we'll have cheap web hosting! woo hoo!
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06-08-2004, 01:41 AM #33Web Hosting Master
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It comes down to not how much a company pays for support but how much they put into there employees.
There are jobs here, maybe not the greatest but they are here.
If this business went Belly up tomorrow, I would have work in a week because I HAVE BILLS TO PAY. When you have bills to pay things take on a different perspective.
Now, to all those against outsourcing to other countries here is my question:
If you run a business would you be willing to give your paycheck to an employee from your country and forego paying all your bills while your company gets started?
I intended to use and develop US employees along with Tripod as an outsource for support.
I intend to take my current US based employees and turn them into Management and Admins. That is an investment. Even if I was large enough to hire all in-house US based support, I would still consider tripod for the simple fact I can put that money I save into developing current employees to greater hieghts of success.
Now, again my question. Would you take the food out of your mouth, the roof over your head, the power that keeps your computer on, and turn it over to a US Based employee just so you don't have to outsource?
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06-08-2004, 02:35 AM #34WHT Addict
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I recommend touchsupport.com the are fully based out of the US. You would have a hell of a time trying to hold someone responsible for something if they are outta india. Hell This guy could easy say I was screwed by out of country people go after them. I reommend 100% US based employees.
Linux/cPanel How-To's - cPanelPlanet.com
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06-08-2004, 03:12 AM #35Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by datapimp.com
those companies are not doing it because they are altruistic or have the best interest of their non-US employees at heart. they're doing it to make their stockholders more wealthy that they already are.
Wishful thinking is not so productive. I see three plausible options for your country:
a) Convert into socialist state and a controlled economy.
b) Invade and colonize the offending countries to ensure the "exploitation" is only one-way and thus to the benefit of the citizens of your country.
c) Get over it and get on with business.
Note: there are alternatives to option b). Creating security threats against a country (especially if it is resource rich in something you want - like, oh, oil) can be just as effective imperialist strategy. Note however, that imperialism can have it's side effects, such as radicalising of the population. Democracy and imperialism don't mix well either.
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06-08-2004, 04:52 AM #36Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by ddihosting
Now, again my question. Would you take the food out of your mouth, the roof over your head, the power that keeps your computer on, and turn it over to a US Based employee just so you don't have to outsource?datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?
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06-08-2004, 07:34 AM #37Junior Guru Wannabe
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I originally posted this question about outsourcing, i reside in Australia and am finding difficulty getting a company to outsource my support too, i have only found one company to offer me the service in OZ, just wanted to find out about tripod based in India. As far as i see it there really should be no reson why i should use a US based company over an Indian company. The main concern is the quality of service they can offer me.
I am also just starting out in the webhosting business and dont have alot of cash to start so cost is very important also. I will probably use the Australian based outsourcing company as i believe they will offer the best service.
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06-08-2004, 08:06 AM #38Web Hosting Master
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sgwilks - I am also located in Australia - please let me know the company you are talking of.
Thanks
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06-08-2004, 08:15 AM #39Web Hosting Master
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datapimp.com,
They are not the options yet, but yea once you have your employees running after you for the check filing legal cases of no pay and when you costs go above your profits we will see what you will have left. You should be the first one then to run a Cooperative Webhosting company, something that exists for the benefit of the workers."Web Hosting is not just about selling space, it is about facilitating customers needs with your plans and supporting the customer for a long lasting mutually beneficial relationship."- Yaser
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06-08-2004, 09:07 AM #40Junior Guru Wannabe
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freakysid
I have sent you a pm.
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06-08-2004, 09:52 AM #41Web Hosting Master
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text from there WS for past month of may.....:
Avg servers/customer: 5-6
Managed servers: 76
Trouble tickets last month: 4310Tripod Support works in tandem with it's offshore team in Kolkata, India ...Computer Steroids - Full service website development solutions since 2001.
(612)234-2768 - Locally owned and operated in the Minneapolis, Minnesota area.
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06-08-2004, 12:18 PM #42Web Hosting Guru
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Ahhh protectionism
Datapimp.com, it is almost impossible that you don't wear anything made in a foreign sweatshop. If you own a TV, it was made by a foreign company (brands like "zenith" were bought when the companies went bankrupt.) Same goes for most consumer electronics.
Your arguments are similar to those used in the 70s when America's industrial base was getting "hollowed out" by foreign competition. Predictions were dire. But unemployment is now at one of the lowest points in history (~6%.)
And just as predicted, America is moving up the value chain. Just look at DDIHosting. The Americans handle the high end work (management, marketing, etc.) which pays the highest. Foreigners handle the menial task of support tickets. Both ends benefit from this transaction.
Plus, every $1 saved can mean $1 to invest (advertising, buying servers, etc.) or $1 to the customer's wallet (increasing living standards, buying more goods = supporting more jobs.)
Globalization is difficult to defend because its counterarguments can tap into anecdotal sources. I'm sure we've all heard the story about the programmer laid off and now working at the grocery store. These stories are powerful because they have a personal connection. Globalization can only fight back with boring and unemotional statistics.
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06-08-2004, 12:55 PM #43Web Hosting Guru
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Successful, real hosting companies don't need to outsource. Outsourcing is indicative of an inability to drive profitability through a viable business model; it's only a trend, not a long term practice. As businesses realize that they lose branding and sales opportunities with every "outsourced" tech response, they come back to their senses. Bottom line: If you can't afford to be in business, file bk and move on.
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06-08-2004, 01:02 PM #44Web Hosting Guru
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Successful, real hosting companies don't need to outsource. Outsourcing is indicative of an inability to drive profitability through a viable business model; it's only a trend, not a long term practice. As businesses realize that they lose branding and sales opportunities with every "outsourced" tech response, they come back to their senses. Bottom line: If you can't afford to be in business, file bk and move on.
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06-08-2004, 02:04 PM #45Disabled
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Is this why almost every major American corporation outsources their work? From car parts, to tech support. Its a cost effective measure that is coupled by a visibly effective share in a company that specilizes in their field.
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06-08-2004, 03:24 PM #46Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by EpicServers
Is this why almost every major American corporation outsources their work?
all of the major corporations who sent their jobs out of the country were profitable when they did so. they sent the jobs away to become more profitable.
and there is something wrong with that. it's short-sighted and it's going to cause major problems down the road. and not that far down the road.datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?
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06-08-2004, 03:30 PM #47Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by Intersabre
Datapimp.com, it is almost impossible that you don't wear anything made in a foreign sweatshop.
anyone else who was concerned with the problem could say the same thing - you just have to be more diligent in your shopping, and you have to (usually) shell out a few more dollars for the clothes you buy.datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?
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06-08-2004, 04:02 PM #48Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by Yaser
You should be the first one then to run a Cooperative Webhosting company, something that exists for the benefit of the workers.
an employee who is well paid, valued and respected will go to great lengths for the company. it is a symbiotic relationship. your company is your employees. they are the only contact your customers have with your company.
cowabunga said it plainly, and i'm sure it raised the hackles of many of you, but it's true. this is not an issue for a company that is doing good business. if you're growing and making money and you need help, you put out an ad and hire someone. that's the way small business works. it's only an issue for tiny "hosts" who aren't really doing enough business to justify their existence, and large corporate hosts with shareholders to placate.
now i'm even boring myself, so i'll let this be my last gasp on this one.datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?
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06-09-2004, 09:22 PM #49Web Hosting Master
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I completely disagree with Cowabunga and Datapimp and I believe they both need to take a good look at the industry they are speaking to.
Any small hosting provider trying to compete can not realistically offer 24x7 support without outsourcing. It is not possible as a "Small" hosting provider.
In order to compete this must be offered because people literally turn away without it.
I'm glad datapimp has decided to quite down because his clothes probably were made in the US, but I wonder where the cotton was made or the tag material, or maybe the plastic in those shoes he wears.
Outsourcing is a fact of life in todays world and the economy has to adjust. It is slowly, not rapidly enough for others.
In the future a global economy will exist and outsourcing will be a null point, but this takes time to create. When that I happens, those of us who understand outsourcing, how ever much we would prefer not to, will have the last laugh.
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06-10-2004, 12:33 AM #50WHT Addict
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Datapimp, I personally don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to support local businesses but like many have said, it's not as black and white as you make it out to be.
Like you, I try to support local businesses (in my case Canadian) because (shock) I'm proud to be a Canadian and I'm not going to apologise for feeling that way, and neither should you.
That said, I also expect really good service for my money, and for some things I find better service/products elsewhere, and a LOT of it is in the US. In fact, at least 3/4 of my expenditure go to US based companies. So I'm exporting most of my money, to you!
PS : A lot of countries would kill to have the low unemployment figures you guys have in the US, including a lot of FIRST world countries. I realise the tech industry has been hammered so it's a particularly touchy subject but it will get better. Have faith.