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  1. #51
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    I realize it's illegal, and I have no idea what you meant by get an account . In any case, I find it a joke in the long run and don't really care since it's not my responsibility.
    A well-reasoned assumption is very close to fact.
    - Adorno

  2. #52
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    account = web host account in the US or Non-EU

  3. #53
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    Does the EU have any type of income tax? The VAT rates seems excessively high and really effects the low to middle class person. A new government organization should rely on a progressive type tax for their income.

    This is nothing like the Rackshack sales tax. The Rackshack sales tax is paid to the state where the physical transaction actually occurs and not to the state/country of the customer.

  4. #54
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    Yes, there are Company and Personal Tax, the first one may range from 10-51% (depending on the art-(LTD for example), profit..etc and the Personel is payed together with social insurance and the rest of the goodies (education, hospital..etc) by the company you work for. ( This is a really short explanation )

  5. #55
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    Originally posted by mpalamar
    This is nothing like the Rackshack sales tax. The Rackshack sales tax is paid to the state where the physical transaction actually occurs and not to the state/country of the customer.
    That's a whole different issue. See, technically if the person ordering the service/product is not from the state AND the business has no legal foundation in that state, you can't charge them sales tax. Even besides that, we aren't actually buying any item from RackShack, it's a leasing arangment not a product (not to mention the fact that they charge sales tax for their SSL certificates). Personally, I don't think what RS is doing is any more ethical/right/legal then what the EU is doing.
    A well-reasoned assumption is very close to fact.
    - Adorno

  6. #56
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    An example of how I interpret the sales tax law: Texas could not require my company based in Pennsylvania with servers in Maryland to collect/remit a sales tax from customers in Texas. I am not required by law to collect a sales tax for Texas because I have no physical presence in that particular state. Pennsylvania could require me to collect a sales tax on Pennsylvania residents because my home offices are in this state and Maryland could require me to collect a sales tax on everybody because because the actual services are used/consumed in Maryland.

  7. #57
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    Couple of points thats all....

    >It pisses me off that they are trying to push American business out of the market

    But... many EU businesses have been struggling for almost a decade now because you guys have not been charging vat to your clients (our clients) yet we've had to.

    >Maybe if their connectivity were better, people would actually use an EU based webhost

    Absolutely... maybe if we could get bandwidth and servers for the prices you guys can get them for then, great!
    Last edited by markcastle; 06-16-2003 at 04:44 AM.
    ••• Mark Castle •••
    ••• www.captivereality.com •••
    ••• domainlabs.uk •••
    My views are my own and not those of my company.

  8. #58
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    Quite a nice point Mark...

    having cheap bandwidth is one of primary things that must be achieved in EU. And this taxation will help to have a healthy environment for that move.
    -=========================-
    MalinaNET.com Internet Solutions

  9. #59
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    Originally posted by markcastle
    Couple of points thats all....

    >It pisses me off that they are trying to push American business out of the market

    But... our businesses have been struggling for almost a decade now because you guys have not been charging vat to your clients (our clients) yet we've had to.
    New York State was in the same situation as the EU. 8-1/2% sales tax they could not collect from out-of-state.

    So they exempted hosting and some other services from this tax so they could compete with other states in a "market without boundaries.".

    EU solution is very European--try to get everyone else to collect a tax rather than rethink the tax itself.



    >Maybe if their connectivity were better, people would actually use an EU based webhost

    Absolutely... maybe if we could get bandwidth and servers for the prices you guys can get them for then, great!
    Again ... New York (which taxes only two classes of goods--things that move and things that don't ) has exempted infrastructure for data centers from sales tax and otherwise encourages IT business. Other states and the Federal Gummint have similar policies.

    With business, it seems like Europe is all stick and no carrot.

  10. #60
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    Originally posted by dynamicnet
    Greetings:

    Hmmm... sort of reminds me of the Boston Tea Party....

    Taxation without representation.

    I was just about to say that too.

    Not only it is a matter for fairness, how will it be enforced?

  11. #61
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    Originally posted by AceWeb
    I was just about to say that too.

    Not only it is a matter for fairness, how will it be enforced?
    I believe it would require a treaty, since enforcement would require the cooperation of non-EU countries.

    I think it would come down to a matter of harassing EU customers to remit the VAT to their own governments--is this possible?

    US States have this--it's called a "compensating use tax" and the few times attempts have been made to collect it, the opposition has usually caused the tax guys to back off.

  12. #62
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    Well EU customers buying "illegal" hosting would make themselves "criminal", that's how it is going to be enforced.

    Sure not everyone will follow the regulation, as there are tons of people that buy illegal stuff and things they are not supposed to do. ( until they get caught )

  13. #63
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    US based hosts aren't going to have to charge VAT to EU customers... as long as they DO NOT have a physical presence in an EU country and as long as they do not SHIP a product to a customer in an EU country.....


    This can be found in it's entirety here: http://www.hmce.gov.uk/forms/notice...tm#P1514_144076

    ----------------------------
    1.5 What is "place of supply"?

    For VAT purposes, place of supply is the place where a supply is treated as being supplied, or made. This is the place where it is liable to any VAT. There are a number of place of supply rules for determining where services of different kinds are made.

    * Where the place of supply of services is in a member State of the European Community (EC), that supply is liable to VAT (if any) in that member State and in no other country. If the member State is not the UK, such supplies are said to be "outside the scope" of UK VAT.

    * Where the place of supply of services is outside the EC, that supply is made outside the EC and is therefore not liable to VAT in any member State (although local taxes may apply). Such supplies are said to be "outside the scope" of both UK and EC VAT.

    ---------------------------------------
    Respectfully,
    Jon Marler

  14. #64
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    Well EU customers buying "illegal" hosting would make themselves "criminal", that's how it is going to be enforced

    Thats all fine and dandy, but how are they going to track this and enforce it. it is one thing to make a law, it is quite another to enforce it. Maybe they have the rights over there to go into your personal records without your knowing but they are going to have a hell of a time enforcing this.

    Second, why the hell would anyone want to live in the EU with all those taxes? I thought US taxes were high. There is no way i would work my a$$ off to support some other low life. Eventually the EU is going to realize they are going to be losing people and businesses that can find other places more affordable to live. You cant have a minority of people supporting the majority.

    Summary: If you are in the US, screw the EU, let them collect it or let the customers deal with it. I am not going to waste my time with all their socialistic BS.

  15. #65
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    One more thing, if the United states wanted to screw with the EU, put a huge tarrif on processors so their computers cost 10 times as much as they do here in the US.

  16. #66
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    Originally posted by goodness0001
    One more thing, if the United states wanted to screw with the EU, put a huge tarrif on processors so their computers cost 10 times as much as they do here in the US.
    Well, insofar as processors are made in the U.S., this can't be done because the U.S. Constitution prohibits export tariffs.

    Besides, what a way that would be to create a European microprocessor industry.

    Monkeying with trade laws (including EU trying to export its VAT) have lots and lots of consequences.

  17. #67
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    Thats all fine and dandy, but how are they going to track this and enforce it. it is one thing to make a law, it is quite another to enforce it.
    This actually sounds like the little box that shows up on your tax return (USA) asking for any taxable goods that you didn't pay tax on... like all your internet purchases. How many put the amount that they should? Probably none...

    Maybe they have the rights over there to go into your personal records without your knowing but they are going to have a hell of a time enforcing this.
    You familiar with the patriot act over here in the US?

    There is no way i would work my a$$ off to support some other low life.
    That's such an ignorant statement. Have you ever taken an american government class? I am positive there are so many services that you benefit from (are you the low life you speak of?) that you don't even know about, and would be very upset without them. Every percent of taxes doesn't go to the "low life."

  18. #68
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    ... Summary: If you are in the US, screw the EU...
    wow! You went too far.

  19. #69
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    You familiar with the patriot act over here in the US?
    Yes and they still need a court order to obtain records from a private company.



    That's such an ignorant statement. Have you ever taken an American government class? I am positive there are so many services that you benefit from (are you the low life you speak of?) that you don't even know about, and would be very upset without them. Every percent of taxes doesn't go to the "low life."
    In fact I studied government and have one of my degrees in political science so I probably have read more about government policy then you have in your whole life.

    1. I pay income, sales, and gas taxes
    2. I pay property tax
    3. I don’t work for the government and you are a fool if you think people should depend on the government to live their day to day lives
    4. Since I pay into the system, I am free say that I can benefit from government works. What about the people those put very little in and take a lot out?
    5. I think a more accurate statement would have been to say, there are only a small minority of government services that i **might** benefit from. Some being food subsidies, and general upkeep of cities, maintenance (which isnt even efficient), roads.

    Your arguement is fine and dandy and really doesnt go far, but what I am talking about is a welfare state such as that of the EU. The major countries in the EU, especially France and Germany are based off a socialistic economy.

    Tell me this, are you going to work 10 hours a day to support someone that never decided to get an education and because of that can’t find a job so now you have to support them, their children their health insurance. It is a fact of economics and common sense that you cannot have a minority of workers supporting a majority of the population. Production will drop off and the whole economy goes down the toilet. Take a look at france's and Germany's economies, they have over 10% unemployment over there. Who do you think is supporting all those people? Why should those people get a job when they can just live off of everyone else.

    Summary: If you are in the US, screw the EU...
    For you politically correct people over on the left...

    I am sorry Mr. and Mrs. EU, I am not going to enforce a foreign law in my sovereign country. Enforce it however you will, but don’t come knocking on my door expecting cooperation.
    Last edited by goodness0001; 06-13-2003 at 01:25 PM.

  20. #70
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    And about the constitution, read Article 1 section 9 and 10. You will find no mention of regulation of foreign trade, only trade within and among states within the union.

    Furthermore, Article 1 Section 8, Clause 3 states congresses purpose is, "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes"

  21. #71
    I find this interesting:
    http://www.eudigitalsales.com/Apply.htm#2

    business-to-business transactions are unaffected by the new Directive. The VAT rules for non-EU suppliers selling to business customers in the Union (which accounts for approximately 90% of the market), will remain unchanged, with the purchasing company paying the VAT under existing self-assessment (or reverse charge) arrangements.

  22. #72
    There's an interesting article that might explain some of the background to this:

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/67/31200.html

  23. #73
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    Long Island, NY
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    Originally posted by goodness0001
    And about the constitution, read Article 1 section 9 and 10. You will find no mention of regulation of foreign trade, only trade within and among states within the union.
    The Export Clause: U. S. Const., Art. I, §9, cl. 5, states: "No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State."

    This has been taken to mean that taxation on goods exported from any state, not simply taxation by a state. See UNITED STATES v. INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS MACHINES CORP.(517 U.S. 843 (1996)). "We have had few occasions to interpret the language of the Export Clause, but our cases have broadly exempted from federal taxation not only export goods, but also services and activities closely related to the export process."

  24. #74
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    Originally posted by markcastle
    Couple of points thats all....

    >It pisses me off that they are trying to push American business out of the market

    But... our businesses have been struggling for almost a decade now because you guys have not been charging vat to your clients (our clients) yet we've had to.
    Actually, I agree with you. It is unfair, but you are looking to the wrong place for relief. Your governments should be enlightened enough to want to grow their internet businesses instead of considering them yet another cash cow. Give EU hosters a tax holiday for a few years from VAT. Then maybe your internet presence would grow and compete in the US with US companies.

    Instead, the EU would like to start a hissy trade war.

    It all comes down to each country wanting to press its own advantages in world commerce. When I buy from amazon UK, they don't have to charge me VAT (export) and they don't collect NYS sales tax either. That's an effective export subsidy and US tax avoidance.

    Likewise, I've purchased internet services from at least four non-US organizations, one each in Canada, Ireland, UK and Ukraine. None of them charge (or are required to charge) VAT they would have to charge their internal clients. If I had to eat the VAT I would probably buy US on all these things.

    You see, International Trade is a two-way street.

  25. #75
    Originally posted by goodness0001
    [B]

    Second, why the hell would anyone want to live in the EU with all those taxes? I thought US taxes were high. There is no way i would work my a$$ off to support some other low life.

    Actually.. when you break it down its probably more fair in europe than it is stateside

    Take this for example.

    IT person working 40 hour work week salary. (really working 60 hours) is paying about 22% tax on an income of 65k.

    You figure if your get heatlh benis, your employeer is paying 700-900.00 for you and your family and your pitching in 100-150 as your copay.

    You then figure in your rediculous state taxes, city taxes, minicipality taxes, your "ability to work" taxes and your "you have a job tax" as well as you own a house tax and you own property tax the VAT and 10% wage tax with a social healthcare system sounds like a godsend.

    In the states if you loose youre job you loose everything. Sure you can get unemployment but you have to pay for your own healthcare, you have to pay your taxes and you don't ever get back what you put in.

    hey.. both systems have there advantages and disadvantages. I can't stand the current US policies because i'm being taxed to death.

    Not to mention i have a 900-1000.00 a month health insurance policy that no one accepts and i'll have to switch to a PPO when i choose to have a family because women having kids is such a high risk in the us that nobody wants to support it.

    ????

    off topic from web hosting but i felt i'd throw in my 2 cents about taxes that suck

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