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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by snelson View Post
    I can echo that sentiment. We're running Windows 2k3 internally to host a line-of-business application. So long as it's supported we'll probably run it to EOL. There's literally no need to upgrade with the cost and potential problems that may cause.
    We have some very important internal systems (control, billing) that are still on Windows 2000. The applications will run on 2003, but there is so much custom config on the apps, IIS, and all the OS tweaks, that it would take me days to duplicate the setup from scratch on a new 2003 box. The server has been 100% stable (so there is little incentive to upgrade) and has been in service so long that I don't want to do an in-place upgrade. Better to start off with a fresh install than upgrade a beast that's had so many different knobs twisted in so many different ways over so many years.

    With support for 2000 ending soon, I'll have no choice, but our version of the app does not run on 2008, so the upgrade will be to another OS that's long in the tooth. The newest version of the app which WILL run on 2008 is, well, total garbage. The original vendor sold out, and the company which bought it has (in my opinion, and the opinion of many long-time users) ruined it.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by WireSix View Post
    Had some rather upset clients earlier in the week. We're not a plesk shop so we don't keep up on what it will or will not run on but a client was using external licensing and they requested 2008, we only install 2K8-R2 and of course plesk won't run on it, go figure....
    R2 technically wants to use different drivers (aka windows 7 drivers) whereas R1 uses vista drivers. Makes managing our images that much more lame...

    What would be nice is if they just called R1 or R2 what it really is, aka Vista Server (R1) or Windows 7 Server (R2) to reduce the deployment and driver management confusion. And why they are starting to require new drivers for what is essentially the same damn OS baffles me..

    I probably spent 3 weeks longer than I expected trying to iron out all the bugs and differences between the various releases and their installation environments, only to be hit with a huge price hike in the end.
    Last edited by FastServ; 11-15-2009 at 01:50 PM.
    Fast Serv Networks, LLC | AS29889 | DDOS Protected | Managed Cloud, Streaming, Dedicated Servers, Colo by-the-U
    Since 2003 - Ashburn VA + San Diego CA Datacenters

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastServ View Post
    R2 technically wants to use different drivers (aka windows 7 drivers) whereas R1 uses vista drivers. Makes managing our images that much more lame...

    What would be nice is if they just called R1 or R2 what it really is, aka Vista Server (R1) or Windows 7 Server (R2) to reduce the deployment and driver management confusion. And why they are starting to require new drivers for what is essentially the same damn OS baffles me..

    I probably spent 3 weeks longer than I expected trying to iron out all the bugs and differences between the various releases and their installation environments, only to be hit with a huge price hike in the end.
    Last common program a generic virus checker I downloaded, McAfee I think, complimentary from Comcast; duly informed me it could work on my system as it sported 'an obsolete OS'.

    That obsolete OS?

    Windows XP

    When these XP's do not run anymore, so too will I most likely in all ways be done with Microsoft.
    ABSF
    Arrogant Bastard Server Farm
    Built from scratch Data Center serving
    100 year-old Metaphysical Library

  4. #104
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    I personally not believe XP is obsolete yet.
    If you see how many companies are still rolling out XP instead of Vista at the moment, it's really insane.

    Now with the coming of Windows 7 this might change, but I personally believe companies wait for at least 6 months to see what and how the product is holding.
    The same they did with Vista, which was (as we all know) not a bad dicision to hold the rollout of it after release.

    Unfortunately I find the SPLA licensing structure everything but clear.
    Yes, in comparision, it's cheap... And yes, all media available can be downloaded.
    However, I've experienced many times you have to consider per solution/customer based, what type of product you need, and what kind of licenses you have to bundle them with.

  5. #105
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    Well, I miss wrote and it should say; 'could NOT work...'.

    That felt like a slap and a push. I wonder who got what deal to put that out the door?
    ABSF
    Arrogant Bastard Server Farm
    Built from scratch Data Center serving
    100 year-old Metaphysical Library

  6. #106
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    I recommend anyone who is going to upgrade from XP, to go straight to 7. The upgrade path from Vista to 7 is just as bad bad, if not worse. And since many Vista drivers won't work in 7, you will quickly see driver/software support for Vista fading.
    Fast Serv Networks, LLC | AS29889 | DDOS Protected | Managed Cloud, Streaming, Dedicated Servers, Colo by-the-U
    Since 2003 - Ashburn VA + San Diego CA Datacenters

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by WireSix View Post
    Had some rather upset clients earlier in the week. We're not a plesk shop so we don't keep up on what it will or will not run on but a client was using external licensing and they requested 2008, we only install 2K8-R2 and of course plesk won't run on it, go figure....
    Plesk is crap, but even Exchange won't run on 2008 R2! I won't be deploying R2 for a while.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastServ View Post
    I recommend anyone who is going to upgrade from XP, to go straight to 7. The upgrade path from Vista to 7 is just as bad bad, if not worse. And since many Vista drivers won't work in 7, you will quickly see driver/software support for Vista fading.
    Absolutely, Windows 7 is far better than Vista. Faster, more stable and more intuitive.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastServ View Post
    I recommend anyone who is going to upgrade from XP, to go straight to 7. The upgrade path from Vista to 7 is just as bad bad, if not worse. And since many Vista drivers won't work in 7, you will quickly see driver/software support for Vista fading.
    Vista won't even be available in retail channels, so Windows 7 will not only be the smarter choice, but the only.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpwjpw View Post
    Windows server is a million times more feature rich than OS X Server, Apple don't seem to be interested in developing a decent server OS.
    In addition to Apple's own packages in OS X, don't forget that it is still UNIX... you can install any existing ports from other UNIX/Linux distros, or port packages yourself. So to be honest, that is not a true statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by jpwjpw View Post
    Comparing SPLA with buying a licence outright is difficult as with SPLA you get free upgrades.
    You can get Software Assurance not only with SPLA, but also with other Volume License programs (both one-time and monthly arrangements) and some OEM copies.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enteligent-Rob View Post
    Vista won't even be available in retail channels, so Windows 7 will not only be the smarter choice, but the only.
    Another point... Microsoft wants Vista DEAD after the bad rap they got over it.

    Remember, the same holds true for Server 2008 R1 since it's directly related to Vista. If you're starting a new deployment, it would be silly to not go with R2.
    Fast Serv Networks, LLC | AS29889 | DDOS Protected | Managed Cloud, Streaming, Dedicated Servers, Colo by-the-U
    Since 2003 - Ashburn VA + San Diego CA Datacenters

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastServ View Post
    Another point... Microsoft wants Vista DEAD after the bad rap they got over it.

    Remember, the same holds true for Server 2008 R1 since it's directly related to Vista. If you're starting a new deployment, it would be silly to not go with R2.
    They do the same with every release, once a new version comes out, the supply of the previous version is quick to die off. Only those with VL agreements (SPLA included) still have access to previous versions, usually for compatibility and legacy reasons. In addition to the desire to move forward through the product lifecycle, sales of a new product look good to the shareholders.

    Vista of course was an exception, more than the bugs we later experienced, the paradigm shift in the user experience was not exactly favored by the enterprise. Everyone was able to opt for XP through the OEM's.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enteligent-Rob View Post
    In addition to Apple's own packages in OS X, don't forget that it is still UNIX... you can install any existing ports from other UNIX/Linux distros, or port packages yourself. So to be honest, that is not a true statement.



    You can get Software Assurance not only with SPLA, but also with other Volume License programs (both one-time and monthly arrangements) and some OEM copies.
    Compare the prices of Windows 2008 Datacenter under SPLA and SA. There is a huge difference due to the fact you can't seem to buy an unauthenticated licence through SA or VL.

    Maybe I was a bit hasty about OS X Server, however, I run a few XServe's on our mainly Windows based networks and they integrate very poorly with Windows based machines. Plus the fact that Apple won't allow OS X to be virtualised pisses me off.

  14. #114
    here is how we read it with our SPLA provider agreeing with us in terms of VPS hosting.

    everything is a application or service --> an application or service which a service provider manages on behalf of it's customer (meaning we can patch it and back it up for them) --> the managed application or service us used by it's customers (meaning our customers) on behalf of it's customers (meaning our customers customers which is what a VPS does) --> the managed application or service is not the service providers intellectual property (since we install nothing but patches on the VPS, this is a yes) --> cheep outsourcing pricing.

  15. #115
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    ^^ Makes sense. Although I'd argue the 'cheap' part. LOL
    Fast Serv Networks, LLC | AS29889 | DDOS Protected | Managed Cloud, Streaming, Dedicated Servers, Colo by-the-U
    Since 2003 - Ashburn VA + San Diego CA Datacenters

  16. #116
    the other way around this would be as follows.

    do a Xen type Vm setup and install the OS for them. Offer no other services and you would then be able to report non-outsourcing licensing.
    for...
    everything is a application or service --> an application or service which a service provider manages on behalf of it's customer (answer is no)= non-outsourcing price.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Host Our Web View Post
    --> cheep outsourcing pricing.
    That's why I started this thread... because the outsourcer license is the OPPOSITE of cheap. Fortunately (for now, at least) we are still able to use the old SKUs at the lower price, but if we were just coming into this game the cost of Microsoft licensing would be prohibitively high.

    Seriously, with sales tax, the license PER PROCESSOR for Datacenter edition is $261/mo. A basic dual-CPU setup would be $522/month just for the OS license. Add in colo rack/power fees, bandwidth, and admin salaries, and you're upwards of $600+ per month just to let the machine sit there idling.

    Margins were already thin enough, without Microsoft kicking us in the butt with both feet.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpwjpw View Post
    Maybe I was a bit hasty about OS X Server, however, I run a few XServe's on our mainly Windows based networks and they integrate very poorly with Windows based machines. Plus the fact that Apple won't allow OS X to be virtualised pisses me off.
    It's about as cumbersome as any other Linux/UNIX distribution, but you can get it to show up in your AD domain without too much trouble via Samba and friends. It of course gets progressively better when you use the newest versions of OS X and Windows (save for having to disable SMB signing for the last version of Samba I used).

    And you've been able to virtualize OS X for a while now, you just still have to be on Apple hardware of course...

    http://blogs.vmware.com/vmtn/2008/01...l-leopa-1.html

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enteligent-Rob View Post
    It's about as cumbersome as any other Linux/UNIX distribution, but you can get it to show up in your AD domain without too much trouble via Samba and friends. It of course gets progressively better when you use the newest versions of OS X and Windows (save for having to disable SMB signing for the last version of Samba I used).

    And you've been able to virtualize OS X for a while now, you just still have to be on Apple hardware of course...

    http://blogs.vmware.com/vmtn/2008/01...l-leopa-1.html
    I've had issues with smb and cifs crashing OS X boxes, maybe its just me

    Virtualising on the desktop is great for consumers but isn't any good for enterprise apps. If I could run XenServer on an XServe and run OS X it would appease me a bit, however the apple tax on their hardware is still ridiculous.

  20. #120
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    When did this discussion to OSX?? LOL
    Fast Serv Networks, LLC | AS29889 | DDOS Protected | Managed Cloud, Streaming, Dedicated Servers, Colo by-the-U
    Since 2003 - Ashburn VA + San Diego CA Datacenters

  21. #121
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    Haha, yeah, sorry. My fault

  22. #122
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    * Rather work from scratch...

    Ok Microsoft SQL Server 2008 r2 pricing...


    "How Much Would You Pay For All This?

    It slices. It dices. And if you call now, you can get all this for the low, low sticker price of:

    Standard Edition – $7,499 per processor (socket)
    Enterprise Edition – $28,749 per processor
    Datacenter Edition – $57,498 per processor
    Parallel Data Warehouse Edition – $57,498 per processor (but you’ll be buying this in combination with hardware anyway)

    Eagle-eyed readers will note it’s about a 20% price increase from SQL Server 2008. That’s probably easy to justify on Standard Edition because Microsoft can say they’re throwing in backup compression, a feature that normally would have cost extra from third party vendors. (what ?)

    SQL 2008 R2 Enterprise Edition, however, won’t have quite as easy of a time justifying its price increase given that it now has CPU caps and already had backup compression anyway."

    =====================

    I'd rather start from scratch.

    Thankyou Microsoft; when you get this ridiculous it is very clear you drove off the road somewhere back in time and just have not noticed it yet...

    ...but, I can see it plain enough.
    ABSF
    Arrogant Bastard Server Farm
    Built from scratch Data Center serving
    100 year-old Metaphysical Library

  23. #123
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    Yeah weird thing Microsoft sell products and i find LINUX MUCH better
    yet its free
    hows tht work lol

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisFinlayson View Post
    Yeah weird thing Microsoft sell products and i find LINUX MUCH better
    yet its free
    hows tht work lol
    Depends what you use it for. If you're running a web server, and have a choice how to code your apps (.NET, PHP, perl, phython, ruby...) then linux makes a lot of sense.

    If you're running commercial applications that are only available for Windows... different story.

  25. #125
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    Thats unfortunate, if the app is C++, then why not use cross-platform libs, or write their own? If its .NET, why not test against Mono at each step in development to be sure it runs?

    Those are the two "popular" languages for enterprise software that I'm aware of that can easily be "Linux Ready"...
    Steven Crothers
    No BS cloud engineer and Red Hat architect.

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