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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPG View Post
    It would be nice if we could legally do that here in Texas.
    I'm not sure if it is legal at the center haha. So I won't mention the name
    I do know Continuum has offered this in one of their advertising threads though so it should be legal as long as everything is installed to meet peak loads. Or submeteres could be used for those using over 100 Amps if the datacenter is willing to do so or in some private cages.
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  2. #27
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    keep in mind the 80% rule is ... fire code in many states...
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  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudstr View Post
    keep in mind the 80% rule is ... fire code in many states...
    That's certainly true, for continuous loads. I'm still a little hazy on the exact definition, but others in the thread have said continuous means 3 or more hours. If I'm bursting above 16 only for short periods (as seems to be the case given what I'm seeing on my PDU monitor bouncing around between 14 and 15 and occasionally hitting 16), well, I'm no expert but that sounds like intermittant instead of continuous to me.

    Really I have other racks with plenty of free power, I just don't want to move equipment that's in use if I can help it.
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  4. #29
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    All the data centers in my local area that I've worked for or hosted in, define continuous load as 3 hours or more.

    I know it can be an issue as well with other items up the power chain, end user circuit-->Power Distribution/Panel--->Panel Breaker/Fuse--->Main Power Distribution-->UPS (and a few more breakers/fuses, bypasses in-between etc etc), should also be following the 80% rule for best practice and safety on all levels.

    Some DC's will over-size power distribution (pre customer circuit) to avoid these kind of issues, but you never know.

    Although annoying for a mere .1 - .5 over, it should give you some peace of mind that they are running an extremely tight ship
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  5. #30
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    I doubt you'd be hitting 16+ much at all, and the duration would be fairly minimal from the sounds of things - it's not like you reboot servers daily and all at the same time.

    See if they can lift the threshold in their monitoring system specifically for your account - as you mentioned it seems way too verbose or not in line with their official policies and not reporting fairly.

    You're operating within reason, I'm sure your DC can work some thing out for you, that doesn't require you to reduce your power consumption.
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  6. #31
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    This is why we always buy breakered power instead of metered power.

    None of the datacenter's I deal with care (or for that matter probably even know) how much power I use, as long as I'm not tripping my breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Katatonic View Post
    You're operating within reason, I'm sure your DC can work some thing out for you, that doesn't require you to reduce your power consumption.
    Agreed.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramnet View Post
    This is why we always buy breakered power instead of metered power.
    OK, I'll bite - I've read it a few times and I still don't get it - why would all the hassles described below be a good reason to buy breakered power rather than metered power???
    None of the datacenter's I deal with care (or for that matter probably even know) how much power I use, as long as I'm not tripping my breaker
    ....
    So you're happy that they break the local fire codes....???

    I hope I've misunderstood....
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooreAdmin View Post
    Although annoying for a mere .1 - .5 over, it should give you some peace of mind that they are running an extremely tight ship
    Annoying yes, good data center management, also yes.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramnet View Post
    This is why we always buy breakered power instead of metered power.

    None of the datacenter's I deal with care (or for that matter probably even know) how much power I use, as long as I'm not tripping my breaker
    Some DC's will require you to have a metered PDU to make sure your not breaking the 80% rule.

    Metered power usually you pay for what you actually use, and not the whole breaker. Breaker power, for example you pay for 20 amps, and can use 16 amps. Metered power you just pay for what you use.

    I guess to each their own.
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  10. #35
    We got a graph from the datacenter, and the graph looks ridiculously spikey, but even if you ignore that and just make a trend line down the center, it does look like our typical usage for most of the month was around 16.5a on this circuit, although the last few days (the period after they complained to us), our trend line is more like 15.5a, so that solves the mystery of why I wasn't seeing the usage level they claimed. I'll see if I can get about 1a of equipment moved over without causing downtime as it seems like a legitimate complaint regarding power use given the graph that I saw.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_R View Post
    So you're happy that they break the local fire codes....???
    Letting a circuit breaker do it's job rather than having humans intervene because they you're getting close to overload things is a far better way to do it.

    Breakers are designed (and required by law) to trip when they are overloaded beyond the rules in the national electric code. If the breaker doesn't trip, you aren't violating the fire/NEC code regarding power load.

    If somebody is concerned about load on a breaker, and the breaker hasn't tripped, they should evaluate why their circuit breakers are defective, or evaluate why they are so concerned when the circuit breaker clearly isn't overloaded.

    It's that simple.
    Last edited by ramnet; 05-05-2012 at 02:40 AM.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_R View Post
    OK, I'll bite - I've read it a few times and I still don't get it - why would all the hassles described below be a good reason to buy breakered power rather than metered power???
    Because breakered power will allow you to go over 80% for non-continuous load (and yes, this is perfectly legal according to the NEC. There is a common myth in the industry that you must never exceed 80% load at any time ever - this is flat out wrong, and is usually cited by incompetent datacentres as a reason to get people to buy more power when they spike over 80%, when clearly, they don't need to).

    If the OP was using breakered power, this thread would not exist, and the datacenter would not be concerned or moaning to the OP for spiking up to 85% non-continuous load
    Last edited by ramnet; 05-05-2012 at 03:01 AM.
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  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by ramnet View Post
    Because breakered power will allow you to go over 80% for non-continuous load (and yes, this is perfectly legal according to the NEC. There is a common myth in the industry that you must never exceed 80% load at any time ever - this is flat out wrong, and is usually cited by incompetent datacentres as a reason to get people to buy more power when they spike over 80%, when clearly, they don't need to).

    If the OP was using breakered power, this thread would not exist, and the datacenter would not be concerned or moaning to the OP for spiking up to 85% non-continuous load
    I don't know what other kind of power there is than breakered? I'm on a breaker. The rules are in place for a variety of reasons, one of which is that at higher temperatures, breakers will trip at lower loads. You can get 100% rated breakers but they're not very common. What you DON'T want is the breaker to trip. The main reason I don't want to move power elsewhere is because of the downtime to whatever device I move. Imagine if all my gear went down because I was using too much power, or worse, the guy next to me was using too much power, their breaker got hot, it made my breaker get hot too, and mine tripped even without using too much power. Not a good situation to be in.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkywizard View Post
    I don't know what other kind of power there is than breakered?
    Metered where you share a breaker with others is handled differently, as opposed to 1 customer having their own dedicated breaker, which is what is meant by purchasing breakered power.

    Quote Originally Posted by funkywizard View Post
    You can get 100% rated breakers but they're not very common.
    Even normal-rated breakers can do 100% load. It just can't be continuous.

    The 80% rule is based on the load exceeding that threshold for 3 hours. You can go up to 19 amps for 2 hours and then back down to 15 amps for an hour and be within the 80% rule. Now, being prepared to take the risk of tripping your breaker while doing that is another matter, but the mere act of doing so is perfectly legal, and it isn't the datacenters place to tell you otherwise (and indeed the datacenter might be liable if they told a client they were in violation and cut them off, and the client can prove they were in full compliance).

    Quote Originally Posted by funkywizard View Post
    What you DON'T want is the breaker to trip. The main reason I don't want to move power elsewhere is because of the downtime to whatever device I move. Imagine if all my gear went down because I was using too much power, or worse,
    This is true, however it should be up to you, not the datacenter, how far close to the max you are willing to risk pushing your own breaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by funkywizard View Post
    the guy next to me was using too much power, their breaker got hot, it made my breaker get hot too, and mine tripped even without using too much power. Not a good situation to be in.
    That isn't really how such things work. While I admit it's possible, if you have a breaker warm enough to heat the ambient air around it sufficiently to cause an adjacent breaker to trip, you have far bigger issues to worry about.

    Breakers generally trip long before they are hot to the touch.
    Last edited by ramnet; 05-05-2012 at 03:53 AM.
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  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by ramnet View Post
    Breakers generally trip long before they are hot to the touch.
    I've run enough LAN parties to know this part isn't true. We've had panels burning hot where only one breaker actually tripped. Good luck getting it to turn back on again due to the heat though. The last thing I need is a ticket in to remote hands "Yeah can you try turning on my breaker again? What, hasn't it cooled down enough yet?" Would be real fun trying to explain that to my customers.

    Anyway, the point of the post was:

    1) How much are you allowed to use per fire code?

    This has been answered.

    In fact, the 80% / intermittant / continual rule seems to say that the portion that is continual must be 80% and the portion that is intermittant is allowed to be 100%. So for example, if I *always* use 10a, then that portion of my load needs 12.5a of breaker capacity. Then if I have a 20a breaker, I'm then allowed to use 7.5a of intermittant load, for a total of 17.5a total. Since I never was under 14a, you could easily say my continuous load was 14a, times 1.25 is 17.5, letting me have an intermittent load of an additional 2.5a in order to be within code, or a total of 16.5a maximum even for noncontinuous usage.

    Had I been exceeding this? The datacenter provided graphs showing that I had at times exceeded this. Prior to seeing the graphs, this was not at all clear to me, as I had assumed I was using substantially less than this.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkywizard View Post
    Had I been exceeding this? The datacenter provided graphs showing that I had at times exceeded this. Prior to seeing the graphs, this was not at all clear to me, as I had assumed I was using substantially less than this.
    Exceeding 80% "at times" is perfectly fine.

    If you have a dedicated breaker all to yourself, and it hasn't tripped, it really isn't any of your datacentres business how close you might be to tripping it and exceeding the NEC limits. That is something for you to worry about, not them.

    That was my point.

    If I got a "nastygram" from a datacentre moaning about this, I would ignore it. If they threatened to cut me off, I'd move facilities, and if I was under contract and sufficiently P-O'd by it, I'd sue them for violating it.

    When you buy a dedicated breaker, the datacenter shouldn't then turn around and moan because you might be close to tripping it. That isn't any of their concern.
    Last edited by ramnet; 05-05-2012 at 04:40 AM.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramnet View Post
    Metered where you share a breaker with others is handled differently, as opposed to 1 customer having their own dedicated breaker, which is what is meant by purchasing breakered power.
    Ahhh, ok, now that's not what I meant by metered power. I meant that if a customer wants, say, 4kw in a rack, then the DC is responsible for laying out enough power to be able to provide that power (on a non-shared breaker, or more likely pair of breakers). The breakers supplying that power are higher rated than anything the customer is likely to need and the power is charged based on what they use.

    For example, we lay out our power based on 32A and 63A (230V) breakers. If a customer wants a 4kw rack, their rack will be supplied by 2 32A breakers (for redundancy). We measure their power and as long as it stays below 4kw (real, measured) then all are happy. If they use 6kw, then they get a bill. If they start getting close to the limits for the 2 x 32A, then with their agreement, we will provide the power through 2 x 63A breakers.

    No breakers trip - better for the DC and the client. No incentive to leave empty rack space - again, better for the DC and the client.

    I know this isn't the way most US DC's operate but doesn't a scheme like that make a lot more sense than being incentivised by the costings to fill the rack to the point just before the breaker trips then continuously crossing your fingers???
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  18. #43
    A couple of things about the 80% rule. If you are running 80% you are only using primary power, not A/B, right? If you were A/B you should be under 40% on each circuit. So you have only one power circuit and you are running it at over 80%. That should be terrifying to you.

    Most DCs have Branch Circuit Monitoring in the PDUs so they are alarmed whenever you go over a threshold. They also see when you get back under it so it is really easy to see how much time you are spending above 80%. You rebooted something in your rack and spiked, shouldn't be a problem. But every day for hours you should be concerned as should the DC.

    For those people that think it is just about code you might want to google an infrared picture of a breaker at 90% load. You will see that it is much warmer than a circuit at 70%. We've already established that you are only running primary power and not redundant, so now you want to run that single feed up where the breaker is at risk of failure? That is not a good idea. If you have a breaker that trips how are you going to get back up since the servers will be at peak during boot. What is the cost to your business for that downtime?

    You should be thanking the DC for telling you that you are over on your power. You only have a single feed so you should be doing everything you can to make sure it stays up. I can assure you that more people will be upset about tripping breakers without being notified than will be upset because they had to order more power.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colo4-Paul View Post
    You should be thanking the DC for telling you that you are over on your power.
    Agreed, however,

    Quote Originally Posted by Colo4-Paul View Post
    What is the cost to your business for that downtime?
    as a supplier, it really isn't any of your concern how your client's run their businesses. This of course assumes all your clients are business customers in the first place, and not buying a rack of gear for their own personal use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colo4-Paul View Post
    If you have a breaker that trips how are you going to get back up since the servers will be at peak during boot.
    Again, this really isn't your concern either. One can simply stagger start servers. APC calls this cold-start delay. Other PDU manufacturers have similar features.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colo4-Paul View Post
    I can assure you that more people will be upset about tripping breakers without being notified than will be upset because they had to order more power.
    So, just to clarify, would you force your clients with dedicated breakers in their racks to upgrade their power service if they were regularly spiking above 80% (and threaten to cut them off if they didn't), or would you leave them to decide if they want to take the risk of blowing their breaker?

    If one of my servers has pegged it's CPU for several hours doing something and is consuming twice the amount of power it normally would, pushing the average on my dedicated circuit to say, 82%, I shouldn't be forced by my datacenter to buy more power.

    This is really what the key issue is here.

    I firmly believe it should be left up to the client to decide how much they want to push their dedicated power allotment, the same way it should be left up to the client on any other dedicated resources a client might purchase (such as how close they push a dedicated network link to the max for example).
    Last edited by ramnet; 05-05-2012 at 08:36 AM.
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  20. #45
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    Basically what ramnet is saying is, don't sell him service because he will be using over 80% without a doubt.
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  21. #46
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    as a supplier, it really isn't any of your concern how your client's run their businesses. This of course assumes all your clients are business customers in the first place, and not buying a rack of gear for their own personal use.
    Hope dont mind me chiming in. So yes its a DC's business to make sure a customer stays online and does not affect his own or adjacent rack or servers just because a customers thinks he can use above 80% power.


    Again, this really isn't your concern either. One can simply stagger start servers. APC calls this cold-start delay. Other PDU manufacturers have similar features.
    Ofcourse its gonna be DC's business again because a customer tripped their breaker and I know a few datacenters that charge customers about $300 to turn the power back on and if they are using above 80% they should buy more power.

    So, just to clarify, would you force your clients with dedicated breakers in their racks to upgrade their power service if they were regularly spiking above 80% (and threaten to cut them off if they didn't), or would you leave them to decide if they want to take the risk of blowing their breaker?
    Most DC's do because a breaker is tripped from panel and not your rack alone, and no one is going to let a customer keep blowing off their breaker again and again.

    And lastly 80% is set by firecode and is in place for fire safety and not to upsell or rip customer. Specially here we have annual fire inspection and a fire Marshall comes in inspects and certifies that the facility is safe to operate. So if he sees a couple of customers regularly spiking above 80%, entire business is at risk of being non compliant and NOT SAFE TO OPERATE
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kusai View Post
    yes its a DC's business to make sure a customer stays online and does not affect his own or adjacent rack or servers just because a customers thinks he can use above 80% power.
    1) Overloaded your own dedicated circuit breaker affects no other customers.

    2) The NEC does allow you to use over 80% power. It has done since 1996, and so does the latest version from 2011:

    Overcurrent Devices Rated 800A or Less [240.4(B)]

    Conductor to comply with 210.19(A), 215.2, and 230.42(A). Sections 210.19(A), 215.2 and 230.42(A) require the conductor to be sized no less than 100% of the noncontinuous load, plus 125% of the continuous load.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kusai View Post
    Ofcourse its gonna be DC's business again because a customer tripped their breaker
    Let's assume the customer doesn't trip their breaker, as is the case with the OP in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kusai View Post
    I know a few datacenters that charge customers about $300 to turn the power back on
    Remote hands fees are irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kusai View Post
    Most DC's do because a breaker is tripped from panel and not your rack alone, and no one is going to let a customer keep blowing off their breaker again and again.
    I'm not disputing this, however, as I said previously, you can run a breaker up to 100% if the load is non-continuous. If I regularly spike a power circuit to, say, 90%, more likely than not, it will be fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kusai View Post
    And lastly 80% is set by firecode
    I've already quoted the relevant sections from the National Electric Code. I encourage you to read them and stop spreading misinformation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven
    Basically what ramnet is saying is, don't sell him service because he will be using over 80% without a doubt.
    I'll ignore the fact that you have defamed my name in public for the moment.

    I run my power responsibly, however, I am aware of MANY people that spike their racks at much higher than 80% on a regular basis. There are plenty of datacenters that allow this, and there are plenty of datacenters that don't even have power metering on individual breakers, and have no idea how many amps a client is pulling anyway.

    If a breaker trips, then it's too much. If a customer doesn't trip a breaker, and is abiding by the law and the NEC, then the datacenter's should leave the customer alone.
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  23. #48
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    ramnet,
    Until you build and run your own datacenter, you have no room to make "demands" on what THEIR power infrastructure rules and guidelines are. You follow them as they are told to you, or you don't get service. Being asked to keep your circuit below 80% constant load (except for perhaps the -odd- SMALL spike) is not an unrealistic or unreasonable request.
    However don't expect any sympathy or people rushing around for you when you trip your circuit.
    Also, don't forget to factor in the remote hands fees that will most undoubtedly be incurred from having to perhaps manually stagger the turn up of the machines in your rack, as well as the troubleshooting / recovery from unclean shutdown to your machines (and potential complete data loss).

    I don't see how its worth all the effort and risk. Just makes no sense at all.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramnet View Post
    If a breaker trips, then it's too much. If a customer doesn't trip a breaker, and is abiding by the law and the NEC, then the datacenter's should leave the customer alone.
    This reply is not a display that you run your breakers responsibly.

    This is why we always buy breakered power instead of metered power.
    Neither is this reply. It just screams that you overload it on a frequent basis.

    I firmly believe it should be left up to the client to decide how much they want to push their dedicated power allotment, the same way it should be left up to the client on any other dedicated resources a client might purchase (such as how close they push a dedicated network link to the max for example).
    The same with this one, obviously have no respect for power usage rules.
    I don't see how you can relate power usage limits to the amount of resources used on a dedicated network link. Its apples to oranges. If you max out a dedicated network link, its not a safety issue.

    ---

    As a colo customer you should be designing your colo enviroment to abide by the usage rule, not skate by the rule in the hopes the DC won't catch on to save some money.
    Last edited by Steven; 05-05-2012 at 03:30 PM.
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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGotzmann View Post
    ramnet,
    Until you build and run your own datacenter, you have no room to make "demands" on what THEIR power infrastructure rules and guidelines are. You follow them as they are told to you, or you don't get service.
    I don't make demands of anyone. You're free to run your datacenter as you see fit.

    You should not assume what my experience is.

    Quote Originally Posted by CGotzmann View Post
    Being asked to keep your circuit below 80% constant load (except for perhaps the -odd- SMALL spike) is not an unrealistic or unreasonable request.
    So, you apparently are reasonable then.

    My point was people have this delusion of "OMG you can never go over 80% never never never" nonsense in their minds, and it's completely wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by CGotzmann View Post
    Also, don't forget to factor in the remote hands fees that will most undoubtedly be incurred from having to perhaps manually stagger the turn up of the machines in your rack
    As previously stated, any decent managed PDU can stagger the power ports from cold start automatically.

    And this of course, also assumes that you will use more power during initial startup then you might spike to during the course of computing activities.

    I can point to several cases where peak power usage does not occur when computers are first turned on.
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