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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by bear View Post
    Wouldn't that actually help catch them, and not help them hide?
    The tools mentioned here seem to be for catching multiple user accounts, and not for spotting shills and hired reviewers. They're not always repeat offenders with multiple accounts.

    For anyone that's moderated on forums for a while, you get a feel for these. It's an inexact science, but there are "tells" a lot of shills will use that trigger a closer look. That's fairly simple.
    These more recent ones were subtle, and didn't follow that same "this feels like shilling" pattern, so when it was spotted, it was then tied to quite a few accounts and providers. It became clear from that they're connected, and hence this thread. We'd much prefer to stop the company offering the shilling service than banning providers for it, but it would seem none want to come forward and admit it (AFAIK).

    What happens next will be interesting.

    True. I didn't study too deeply into it, but from what I saw,very easy to spot. Also,as you said, they don't really do too much on here...too easy to spot. I found this more on smaller similar he forums. One where even though they have a fraction of members, it's easier to easier to get away such actions. Reminds me of one where they almost yell at you for posting an ad. You get to post one ad, and then either have to wait forever to post again or only post one ad ever. Not sure....haven't been back there in over a year. There's a big list of everywhere they post too. I don't see it being impossible to sign as a "user" ad leave a review for your own company. The hired person is fake, how would they know the other user is not the owner. So now you have two "customers" leaving reviews....not including how many "customers" the reviewer is pretending to be.

    In terms of banning....one would think for both the company and the "reviewer". The company knew they were breaking the rules...it didn't "just happen"....but that's out my hands

    I'm thinking back to my musical days (since it was eons ago) where at events we would get as many people we knew to come with us and wear our t-shirts. Intimidation marketing...no different than hiring reviewers.


    I guess in time the word will come out who these "reviewers" are.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by 48-14 View Post
    we would get as many people we knew to come with us and wear our t-shirts. Intimidation marketing...no different than hiring reviewers.
    Yeah, but can we get them to wear the shirts?
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  3. #78
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    My writing above is atrocious. New laptop at a remote location. My apologies. Eeek


    Quote Originally Posted by bear View Post
    Yeah, but can we get them to wear the shirts?
    You know what's funny....if you sent them such shirts, they would wear them and post all over facebook and other places and get caught for their actions while promoting WHT.

    People are not too bright nowadays. If people will buy name brand clothes to save big companies billions in ad campaigns become walking billboards, WHT can do it too.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by ES - George View Post
    Back in the day when I ran forums with MyBB, I used a helpful plugin which analysed registration & last login IPs. I managed to catch some people out using that tool. They would forget about alternate accounts, login and then BAM - caught! Since the forum was running PostLoop integrations, it was crucial for me. I know WHT runs vB, but for reference: http://mods.mybb.com/view/multiple-r...tions-detector

    I assume WHT has something like this, if not, might be something to invest in.

    Anything to catch these idiots who seem to think they can walk on water is much appreciated!
    We've tried a few different plugins for vB that do similar things. They don't generally make it off our dev server because of the way they interact with the rest of our hacks or network.

    Like bear mentioned (sort of), we've done a lot of manual research. Shilling has become an art form of sorts. Some are very good at obfuscating their true identity. But we don't need IPs, email addresses, set cookies, or any tangible evidence at all to know when we're dealing with shills. WHT staff have had a bit of experience over the years on identifying and ferreting out shills and those that hire shills.

    You would not believe how many times we've heard, "It wasn't me. It was a marketing manager that used to work for us."

    It's just gotten to the point where we don't much care if you knew what who you hired was doing or not. If you hired them, you're responsible. So that excuse just doesn't work any more.

    I think WHT has done a good job through the years of curtailing shills' actions. But with the advancement of paid shill experts, a few have managed to slip through the cracks. And it's those cracks that we're going to fill with any company or organization who knowingly or not hire unscrupulous marketers.

    We're confident that, if you hired them, you received enough information to understand what they proposed to do for you was not anywhere near ethical. You have set out to deceive consumers for profit. And that's the reason, when the shill is banned, everyone and everything else involved will be banned.
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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by bear View Post
    What I find interesting is that since this thread was started, the shilling pattern that was being discussed appears to have (not so) mysteriously stopped. What are the odds?
    Well if it stops permanently then this thread has accomplished part of it's purpose.

  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by IT Tech View Post
    Well if it stops permanently then this thread has accomplished part of it's purpose.
    To stop it permanently, WHT should take action against companies who were involved in shilling in past or near past. Otherwise they will start again in near future.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoftWareRevue View Post
    But with the advancement of paid shill experts, a few have managed to slip through the cracks. And it's those cracks that we're going to fill with any company or organization who knowingly or not hire unscrupulous marketers.

    We're confident that, if you hired them, you received enough information to understand what they proposed to do for you was not anywhere near ethical. You have set out to deceive consumers for profit. And that's the reason, when the shill is banned, everyone and everything else involved will be banned.


    Quote Originally Posted by Askforhost View Post
    To stop it permanently, WHT should take action against companies who were involved in shilling in past or near past. Otherwise they will start again in near future.

    I know the MOD's do great work...and there is the odd time it's a little overdone, but for a good reason...BUT if your going after shills, why not faulty hosts too?

    It's basically having a belligerent drunk and a crackhead.

    The drunk will get violent, smash things, insult people, hurt others.

    The crackhead will quietly smoke crack and pass out on the couch, not bothering anyone.

    In essence, it's better to keep the crackhead around since it's the safer option...even though the crackhead is also taking people's money.

    Going after one group of fraudsters and letting others slide doesn't give any of them a strong message.

    My .02 cents

  8. #83
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    So, when are you going to announce this?

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by stablehost View Post
    So, when are you going to announce this?

    The WHT wall of shame....a short cut to keep potential customers safe.

    Many have argued why this can't happen, but if people are shilling and caught ripping people off, they have nothing to say. ANY counter-arguments of any kind would look foolish and would back fire on the hosts, as it has happened many times, including some that have been receiving backlashes for a year. With the amount of backlashes this hosts has received...if there service were that strong, the Apocalypse couldn't take them down.

  10. #85
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    Not that my ticket is strictly relevant to shilling, but cause for concern at least. It was answered but I'm sure there's more than meets the eye here....HXJ-820385
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  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Askforhost View Post
    To stop it permanently, WHT should take action against companies who were involved in shilling in past or near past. Otherwise they will start again in near future.
    Quote Originally Posted by 48-14 View Post
    I know the MOD's do great work...and there is the odd time it's a little overdone, but for a good reason...BUT if your going after shills, why not faulty hosts too?

    It's basically having a belligerent drunk and a crackhead.

    The drunk will get violent, smash things, insult people, hurt others.

    The crackhead will quietly smoke crack and pass out on the couch, not bothering anyone.

    In essence, it's better to keep the crackhead around since it's the safer option...even though the crackhead is also taking people's money.

    Going after one group of fraudsters and letting others slide doesn't give any of them a strong message.

    My .02 cents
    Not to mention that taking action (i.e. suing) against such companies is often complex and costly -- with little to no assurance of desired results. Sadly, some of those companies know that.

    If WHT ever puts up some kind of wall of shame, IMO it's best they post some kind of proof (i.e. screenshots) so there's little to no question. For example, I've seen some blogs that post screenshots of trolls' names and comments while calling out such people for their behavior.

  12. #87
    Why not remove paid reviews?

    I know name of a company who use paid reviews and they post a review in WHT on monthly wise.(eg: Every month 1 review) but their customers stop posting review when ownership changed to new owner.

    Review pattern:
    Target Keyword "CompanyName Review"
    Review Posting: Every month 1x review and 2 reviews in some month.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by DewlanceHosting View Post
    I know name of a company who use paid reviews and they post a review in WHT on monthly wise
    Feel free to contact us with your proof: http://helpdesk.webhostingtalk.com/
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by DewlanceHosting View Post
    Why not remove paid reviews?

    I know name of a company who use paid reviews and they post a review in WHT on monthly wise.(eg: Every month 1 review) but their customers stop posting review when ownership changed to new owner.

    Review pattern:
    Target Keyword "CompanyName Review"
    Review Posting: Every month 1x review and 2 reviews in some month.
    That pattern goes alongside the "reviewers" I came across.

  15. #90
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    Personally it would be better if you introduced a dedicated review section not only would it be easier to spot the shilling rings but keeps the other sections more fluid.

  16. #91
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    Sorry...crazy thought moment.

    Has anyone ever hired fake reviews to leave nothing but negative reviews?

    Slander the company Y's name all over place. Insult their packages. Claim they weren't given a refund,

    BUT,

    then went and got service at company X.....who's just happens to be affiliated with company Y???

  17. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by TrentaHost View Post
    +1 I always wondered why all of a sudden they decide to open an account to post a negative review.
    Probably because they're mad. I've opened accounts just to complain about a business that screwed me. I almost never open a new account to write a good review, however. I post those on my blog or social media instead.

    I would be more suspicious of someone registering just so they can praise a company. Some might be legit, but I suspect that most are shills.

    An angry customer, on the other hand... more likely to be legit. Although I am sure there are people who purposely badmouth their competitors or former employers.

    Quote Originally Posted by RossMAN View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rits
    This will never happen but one can dream. It would be a potential liability nightmare but dayum it would be sweet.
    Unfortunately there is a huge liability if you publicly shame someone and you are wrong. A libel lawsuit from one company with big pockets could wreak havoc.

    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    Personally it would be better if you introduced a dedicated review section not only would it be easier to spot the shilling rings but keeps the other sections more fluid.
    We did that for our forums as well, and even created a forum area specifically for asking for recommendations (since most of those posts are created just so the provider or shill can respond with their suggestion).

    We've gotten to the point where anything advertising or promotional related goes in its own forum areas.
    Last edited by bear; 05-05-2014 at 09:43 PM. Reason: multi-quote

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupportGuide View Post
    Probably because they're mad. I've opened accounts just to complain about a business that screwed me. I almost never open a new account to write a good review, however. I post those on my blog or social media instead.

    I would be more suspicious of someone registering just so they can praise a company. Some might be legit, but I suspect that most are shills.

    An angry customer, on the other hand... more likely to be legit. Although I am sure there are people who purposely badmouth their competitors or former employers.
    Agreed. Most only take the time to write a positive review if they already use the forum, otherwise they are most likely shilling, because most just won't take the time to create an account unless it is to complain.
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  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by stablehost View Post
    So, when are you going to announce this?
    I am also interested to know. As they say, always go with your gut feeling. There are a few providers (well thought-of) that I’ve had some speculation of for my part...

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupportGuide View Post
    Unfortunately there is a huge liability if you publicly shame someone and you are wrong. A libel lawsuit from one company with big pockets could wreak havoc.
    Hmmmm. Why is it different if customers shame the company, and the company IS caught.

    But then, what if the review fake....has any hosting company ever gone after a customer?

    Also in terms of pockets;

    1. Most of the hosts getting shamed don't have deep pockets

    2. The one's that do have deep pockets get shamed all the time and it only effects 0.00000006% of their operation. It's almost pointless to shame them.

  21. #96
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    No need to shame anybody, is not right to affect others people businesses. People do desperate things in difficult times. Embarrassing people is not the foundation of this community.

    However it is highly advisable to suspend/ban individuals incurring into such practices being them Corporate, Premium or Regular.

    However we all know that banning Corporate users most likely won't happen $$$$. So indeed there is no solution, the world is already corrupt, and fraud is everywhere.
    --

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by HRR1963 View Post
    No need to shame anybody, is not right to affect others people businesses. People do desperate things in difficult times. Embarrassing people is not the foundation of this community.

    However it is highly advisable to suspend/ban individuals incurring into such practices being them Corporate, Premium or Regular.

    However we all know that banning Corporate users most likely won't happen $$$$. So indeed there is no solution, the world is already corrupt, and fraud is everywhere.
    WHT have banned corporate and premium members in the past,and I dare say, they will in the future.

    We all have to abide by the same rules, regardless of membership level.

  23. #98
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    I have to disagree here. I (and many other WHT members) have seen other providers banned. Doesn't really matter if they're struggling or in desperate times - we all need to make a living some how and abiding by the WHT rules (which aren't exactly complex, e.g. pages and pages long) isn't tricky.

    If we were shilling, we'd would fully expect to be banned as it's clearly giving us an advantage over competitors. People who "lurk" on WHT, 99% of them wouldn't suspect a thing and might end up making a terrible decision by signing up with said provider.

    If you provide a good service, you'll get good reviews (perhaps not as many as you might like) from legitimate customers.

    Really is no excuse for this crap.

    WHT mods, baring in mind they don't get paid do an excellent job when you consider how active WHT is and how many providers there are here. I'm sure they'll continue doing their best going forward as well. I make several reports a week and they're always addressed properly with a little bit of banter.

    It has been proven time and time again that they'll ban anyone regardless of membership level.

    Quote Originally Posted by HRR1963 View Post
    No need to shame anybody, is not right to affect others people businesses. People do desperate things in difficult times. Embarrassing people is not the foundation of this community.

    However it is highly advisable to suspend/ban individuals incurring into such practices being them Corporate, Premium or Regular.

    However we all know that banning Corporate users most likely won't happen $$$$. So indeed there is no solution, the world is already corrupt, and fraud is everywhere.
    Last edited by EthernetServers; 05-06-2014 at 03:31 AM.
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  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by HRR1963 View Post
    No need to shame anybody, is not right to affect others people businesses. People do desperate things in difficult times. Embarrassing people is not the foundation of this community.

    I disagree too.

    If a host is intentionally effecting a customers business, they need to be called out. It cancels your statement. The outcome is worst for the customer since they rely on the site to generate income. The host could care less since they have other customers to generate income. If the host apologies or attempts to solve the issue, then maybe your statement applies. But if a host is apologizing every week, fixing the same issue every week, or is caught intentionally breaking rules numerous amounts of times.....rules that show the host is unethical or borderline running a criminal operation....every week...sell the customers, do something else.



    Quote Originally Posted by HRR1963 View Post
    However we all know that banning Corporate users most likely won't happen $$$$. So indeed there is no solution, the world is already corrupt, and fraud is everywhere.

    Good ol celebrity status.

    Become famous, do illegal stuff, get some PR just before releasing a movie or song, slap on wrist, go to do it again

    Regular person, do illegal stuff, no PR, get a record, no slap on wrist, possible jail time, possible destroyed life.

    Makes complete sense

    Basically a premium and corporate account shields you from the backlash of wrong doing??? Let's think about this one.

    Look at that Donald Sterling. We all know at their level such attitudes exist. Only difference...he was caught. He is now banned for life and the league I believe is forcing him to sell his team. I think he's worth billions and was fined 2.5 mil, which is pocket change to him, but action had to be taken to show that breaking the rules, especially ethically is not allowed.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by 48-14 View Post
    I disagree too.

    If a host is intentionally effecting a customers business, they need to be called out. It cancels your statement. The outcome is worst for the customer since they rely on the site to generate income. The host could care less since they have other customers to generate income. If the host apologies or attempts to solve the issue, then maybe your statement applies. But if a host is apologizing every week, fixing the same issue every week, or is caught intentionally breaking rules numerous amounts of times.....rules that show the host is unethical or borderline running a criminal operation....every week...sell the customers, do something else.






    Good ol celebrity status.

    Become famous, do illegal stuff, get some PR just before releasing a movie or song, slap on wrist, go to do it again

    Regular person, do illegal stuff, no PR, get a record, no slap on wrist, possible jail time, possible destroyed life.

    Makes complete sense

    Basically a premium and corporate account shields you from the backlash of wrong doing??? Let's think about this one.

    Look at that Donald Sterling. We all know at their level such attitudes exist. Only difference...he was caught. He is now banned for life and the league I believe is forcing him to sell his team. I think he's worth billions and was fined 2.5 mil, which is pocket change to him, but action had to be taken to show that breaking the rules, especially ethically is not allowed.

    Good example, still , let's hope the community is really driven in the way you just described. IMO some user will never get banned, maybe is luck or maybe $$$$, << we all know this corrupt worlds.
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