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  1. #1
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    Sites using Frames

    I've built many sites, but never used frames. Frames are a mystery to me.

    I'm considering buying a site that uses frames though, so do any of you have any information about how search engines treat sites using frames? I mean, the url never seems to change, like on normal sites where each page has it's own title, "/whatever.html". Plus it's weird that I can't even see code when I try to view the source. It's just creepy. lol

  2. #2
    What's frames, Iframes?

    Peter.
    Open Solution, Inc
    http://opensolution-us.com

  3. #3
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    It's just your standard frame, from what I was told.

    The header and left (navigation) stay put, and only the content (center) section changes.

  4. #4
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    Frames are pretty much a no-no and I don't think that they are good for search engines, but I am not entirely sure about it. I presonally wouldn't use them as some people don't like them and the don't always look good to me although I have seen nice iframe layouts before.

  5. #5
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    Originally posted by charmedlover
    Frames are pretty much a no-no and I don't think that they are good for search engines, but I am not entirely sure about it.
    See, that is my primary concern.

    So far I have heard everything from...

    - makes no difference to a search engine.

    - not as good for a search engine (as pages with no frame)

    - actually better for a search engine (then pages with no frame)

    So this is why I'm confused.

    Anybody who has definitive proof, explanations, information or examples of the situation, please share.

  6. #6
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    this tends to be a flaky issue many times, and the best thing to do is to try and have the one with the content or links to content be the page thats loading
    Computer Steroids - Full service website development solutions since 2001.
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  7. #7
    Originally posted by Gen-T
    See, that is my primary concern.

    So far I have heard everything from...

    - makes no difference to a search engine.

    - not as good for a search engine (as pages with no frame)

    - actually better for a search engine (then pages with no frame)

    So this is why I'm confused.

    Anybody who has definitive proof, explanations, information or examples of the situation, please share.
    Look at my site (shameless promotion) - everything is built from many, many frames (we called them portlets), hundreds of them. They are configurable by user or administrator, have many different content types including different Iframes. And btw, they are very much searchable by all search engines.

    Peter Kinev.
    Open Solution, Inc
    http://opensolution-us.com

  8. #8
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    I think it may make a difference, but truley I haven't really tested it, but since the pages aren't on the physical page I don't think that it would render in a search engine, but I am not sure one this.

    Funny I have been using HTML/XHTML for years and never thought about this, also never made frame pages.

  9. #9
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    99 times out of 100, frames are a bad idea. The biggest problems with them do have to do with search engines, which only see the frameset, not the contents of the frame. There are ways around this that will make your site as searchable as any other, but they are complicated. You should have comprehensive no-frames content to go with every frameset. Then, for the sake of visitors who might want to link to a page inside your site or bookmark something, you need a frameset to match every page within your site (yes, this means your site will be 2-3x larger than it would without the frames).

    In the end, when all's said and done, you've pretty much created an entire <noframes> site parallel to your frames site, which begs the question, why use frames in the first place? But if you don't go through these steps, you run into the usability and search engine issues listed previously. Plus, your site cannot be accessed through PDAs or cellphones, and this is a FAST growing market, not to be sneezed at!

    MOST of the time, the use of frames signifies laziness on the part of the designer, who would have been better served using includes (SSI, PHP, etc.). I say most of the time, because by the sounds of things, Mr. Kinev put quite a bit of time and thought into his site, and I'm sure his use of frames is much more appropriate than 99% of the rest of the Web.

    Paul H
    Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design

  10. #10
    From http://www.google.com/webmasters/2.html

    Your page uses frames. Google supports frames to the extent that it can. Frames tend to cause problems with search engines, bookmarks, emailing links and so on, because frames don't fit the conceptual model of the web (every page corresponds to a single URL). If a user's query matches the site as a whole, Google returns the frame set. If a user's query matches an individual page on the site, Google returns that page. That individual page is not displayed in a frame -- because there may be no frame set corresponding to that page.
    If you are concerned with the description of your site as seen by search engines, please read "Search Engines and Frames". It describes the use of the 'NoFrames' tag, which is used to provide alternative content. If, instead of providing alternative content, you use wording such as "This site requires the use of frames" or "Upgrade your browser", then you are excluding both search engines and people who use browsers with frames turned off. (For example, audio web browsers, such as those used in automobiles and by the visually impaired, typically do not deal with frames, which are a visual mechanism.) You can read about NoFrames in the HTML standard here: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/pres...es.html#h-16.4
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  11. #11
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    Of course, I forgot about another great scourge of frames, orphaned pages. If a search engine succeeds in indexing your site, you'll end up with many pages being accessed outside of the frameset. This means you'll need to do one of two things. Either have a unique frameset for every page (as described above) and use some coding mechanism to make the frameset load when the page is accessed by itself (I know how to do this w/JS, but I don't know the proper server-side coding technique), or provide links within each framed page (semi-defeating the purpose of frames).

    I was first going to say you could use the Apache redirect argument to place orphaned pages into a frameset, but I wonder whether this would cause an infinite loop of framesets opening inside each other. I'll have to try this and see what happens...
    Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design

  12. #12
    Originally posted by the_pm

    I say most of the time, because by the sounds of things, Mr. Kinev put quite a bit of time and thought into his site, and I'm sure his use of frames is much more appropriate than 99% of the rest of the Web.

    Paul H
    I am not sure what you are trying to say. The Portlet API based on JSR168 is the only specification adapted by IBM, Sun, BEA, HP, Plumtree, etc, etc for portal solutions - well I decided to use it too. In my (and Gartner, and Meta, and Forrester) estimation this constitutes 99% of the Web. Am I wrong?

    How do you know what time I put in my site? It's dynamic in nature (mostly) and content is generated without my effort. And btw, you can put it in your place with completely different content and different "look and feel" in two hours.

    Peter Kinev.
    Open Solution, Inc
    http://opensolution-us.com

  13. #13
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    I'm just trying to say that most frames implementations are faulty, but I'm not making any negative comments toward yours, since not ALL are bad. Certainly you put time into its development, and I applaud any effort that's well thought-out and implemented appropriately. I'm on your side

    Indeed, one advantage to frames is that it is easy to swap content and design elements, but this is more for the benefit of the designer, not the end user. So why not use includes and stylesheets instead, and bypass all of the negative aspects of frames? I don't know your site's circumstances, so I wouldn't pretend to know what's best for you. But for OP who's asking about purchasing a site made of frames, it's only fair that (s)he know the limitations of them. That's all I'm getting at.

    Paul H
    Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design

  14. #14
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    search engines hate frames, as mentioned

  15. #15
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    Well, I have decided against buying the site. After much research over the last couple days, it's apparent that search engine optimization is indeed still a big setback for frame based sites, and since that's such an important part of what I planned to do with it, I'm just not comfortable.

    I read all about using the 'NOFRAMES' tag, and the workarounds, but it seems to be taking a step backwards from what I'm accustomed to doing with my sites. Thanks to everybody for their feedback.

    P.S. - pnorilsk you have a nice site there, and I wish you continued success.

  16. #16
    Originally posted by Gen-T

    P.S. - pnorilsk you have a nice site there, and I wish you continued success.
    Thank you, I appreciate receiving this approval from you.

    Regards,
    Peter Kinev.
    Open Solution, Inc
    http://opensolution-us.com

  17. #17
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    Originally posted by pnorilsk
    Look at my site (shameless promotion) - everything is built from many, many frames (we called them portlets), hundreds of them. They are configurable by user or administrator, have many different content types including different Iframes. And btw, they are very much searchable by all search engines.

    Peter Kinev.
    But your site (from your www button) is not in an index frameset page, which is what is causing the biggest of the frame problems.

  18. #18
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    Originally posted by Marble
    But your site (from your www button) is not in an index frameset page, which is what is causing the biggest of the frame problems.
    Yep, that site isn't an example of what Gen-T was asking about.

    The problem with frames as far as search engines are concerned is that each part of the frameset is a separate html page, as is the frameset page itself. So they'll be spidered and indexed as such. That presents a few problems and introduces some weaknesses that will affect ranking.

    Some of the issues can be worked around -- for example, a common weakness is that the internal page don't include a title tag, the contents of which are very important in ranking. So, you could add one.

    Other problems really can't be fixed. For example, the content pages in general will have only one incoming link and no outgoing links to other internal pages (since navigation is generally handled in one framed page). Effective management of internal links is an important element of SEO; frames as they are generally used take away the flexibility you need.
    Specializing in SEO and PPC management.

  19. #19
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    frames are murder for search engines.


    frames suck for usability too. a user absolutely cannot bookmark any page in your site except the home page! and if the user is at a page he finds usefull and wants to send the url to a friend or post it on a forum and he copies the url out of the address box in his browser, it will be the url for the home page, not the page he is viewing

  20. #20
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    Hey guys, now that I've decided not to buy the site/design I might as well post it....

    http://www.graphicism.net/project2/

    It's a full site, not just a home page. Pretty nice huh? All the graphics (3D Rings etc.) are original.

    Really, the frame thing is a big disappointment.

  21. #21
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    It's funny because that could have easily been created without using frames...

  22. #22
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    Nice looking, but go behind the scenes. Apart from the fact that there is absolutely no excuse for the frames, the code is borderline tag soup. I've seen worse, but it ain't pretty - way too much bloat. This could have been wrapped up nice and neat - it's a very easy design to create in a more functional manner.

    Paul H
    Studio1337___̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.__Web Design

  23. #23
    i agree. that website can be converted to a non-framed website easily. just use includes and it will work like a beauty.

    i believe it is a problem for search engines indexing framed websites. isn't it possible to just use php scripts to set a variable for each page, and check if it's framed? if not, then it will redirect to the exact page with frames...

    i have seen one or two website that has succesfully done this. but i can't remember where i saw it before.

    the workaround i did was redirect to the main page when it my page is framed, it might lose visitors, but then, it might also make the visitor browse around the website too. i doubt it will work well with a large site though.

  24. #24
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    Yep, I agree guys. I really don't understand why he used the frame design. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that he has just been using frames for a long time, and never took the opportunity to migrate away from them. Even more puzzling when you realize he's designing modern 3D models (yet still building pages with frames).

  25. #25
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    Gen-T, I commented on this design when it was posted as I really liked it. Crisp and no-nonsense.

    I noticed the frames too and wondered why he had used them. But the site would be easy to convert.

    Really a great layout and design. Not a nasty gradient or whizzing white line in site ;-)

    I would not think it would take him long to change it about. As I said in his thread if I was going to open a hosting site I would buy this frames or not, just for the design.

    Too many sites are bloated with crap, dime a dozen. I guess it depends on the market too though, whether more serious dedicated etc or teenagers looking for first hosting package.

    James

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