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  1. #26
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    I'm really not sure if the latest Joomla! 2.5 or the latest Joomla! 3 work with PHP 5.4. I would assume that they do. If they don't, then that would definitely be a bone to pick with the Joomla! developers.

    But if your users are using Joomla! 1.5 or a version of Joomla! that is not supported (looks like currently Joomla! 2.5.14 and Joomla! 3.1.5 are currently the only supported versions) then any errors they get, regardless of if its related to a PHP version or not, it should be pointed out that they are using an unsupported version of Joomla!

    The Joomla! developers have stated that Joomla! 1.5 will not be compatible with PHP 5.4 for sure. Some seem to claim that it works, others it does not. Probably just depends on their PHP setup and their Joomla! set up.

    Another wrench to throw into this, consider all of the Joomla! components being used on the Joomla! install. The user may have Joomla! 2.5.14 installed but they may be using an old and outdated or poorly written component that is not compatible with PHP 5.4 or is otherwise throwing errors.

    Again, Joomla! developers have said that Joomla! 1.5 won't be made compatible with PHP 5.4. But the Joomla! developers really shot themselves in the foot by not providing a clear upgrade path from Joomla! 1.5 to Joomla! 2.5. And for that, I do blame the Joomla! developers (course, on the flip side, a lot changed from Joomla! 1.5 to Joomla! 2.5 so providing a simple and easy to use upgrade path may have been difficult).

  2. #27
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    Jun 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPaReK View Post
    I'm really not sure if the latest Joomla! 2.5 or the latest Joomla! 3 work with PHP 5.4. I would assume that they do. If they don't, then that would definitely be a bone to pick with the Joomla! developers.

    But if your users are using Joomla! 1.5 or a version of Joomla! that is not supported (looks like currently Joomla! 2.5.14 and Joomla! 3.1.5 are currently the only supported versions) then any errors they get, regardless of if its related to a PHP version or not, it should be pointed out that they are using an unsupported version of Joomla!

    The Joomla! developers have stated that Joomla! 1.5 will not be compatible with PHP 5.4 for sure. Some seem to claim that it works, others it does not. Probably just depends on their PHP setup and their Joomla! set up.

    Another wrench to throw into this, consider all of the Joomla! components being used on the Joomla! install. The user may have Joomla! 2.5.14 installed but they may be using an old and outdated or poorly written component that is not compatible with PHP 5.4 or is otherwise throwing errors.

    Again, Joomla! developers have said that Joomla! 1.5 won't be made compatible with PHP 5.4. But the Joomla! developers really shot themselves in the foot by not providing a clear upgrade path from Joomla! 1.5 to Joomla! 2.5. And for that, I do blame the Joomla! developers (course, on the flip side, a lot changed from Joomla! 1.5 to Joomla! 2.5 so providing a simple and easy to use upgrade path may have been difficult).
    Well, when I asked many users why they are not upgrading that was the main reason. Because there is no upgrade from 1.5 to 2.

    It has to be done manually and most of this users donīt know how to do it or just donīt want to work, not sure what the reason is either. So they decide to stick with 1.5 for ever, even while they get hacked multiple times, some people prefer to suffer it seems. Instead of just upgrading once, they prefer to keep fixing their outdated installs over and over again.

  3. #28
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    May 2009
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    It's always good go notify your customers before an upgrade so that they are aware of it. I would still recommend keeping current php as it is and install newer version manually. You can also look for cloudlinux + cagefs which allows multiple php versions.

  4. #29
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    Sep 2013
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    It's my opinion that you should always stick with PHP's Old Stable rather than New Stable. They have some bad habits with their New Stable releases changing too fast for devs to keep up.

    My GoDaddy shared host only allows 5.3 and 5.2.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanHawks View Post
    It's my opinion that you should always stick with PHP's Old Stable rather than New Stable. They have some bad habits with their New Stable releases changing too fast for devs to keep up.

    My GoDaddy shared host only allows 5.3 and 5.2.
    PHP 5.3.20 Release Announcement

    The PHP development team announces the immediate availability of PHP 5.3.20. About 15 bugs were fixed. Please note that the PHP 5.3 series will enter an end of life cycle and receive only critical fixes as of March 2013. All users of PHP are encouraged to upgrade to PHP 5.4. PHP 5.3.20 is recommended for those wishing to remain on the 5.3 series.

    PHP 5.2.16 Released!

    [16-Dec-2010]
    The PHP development team would like to announce the immediate availability of PHP 5.2.16. This release marks the end of support for PHP 5.2. All users of PHP 5.2 are encouraged to upgrade to PHP 5.3.




    That advice could also be looked at as either lazy or not willing to move forward with coding.

    I've seen sites breaking because they stuck with 5.2. It also creates the other issue of backward compatibility or upgrades. New releases of software are not trying to accommodate older languages.


    Why is GoDaddy still on 5.2. That says a lot.

  6. #31
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    Sep 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by 48-14 View Post
    That advice could also be looked at as either lazy or not willing to move forward with coding.

    I've seen sites breaking because they stuck with 5.2. It also creates the other issue of backward compatibility or upgrades. New releases of software are not trying to accommodate older languages.


    Why is GoDaddy still on 5.2. That says a lot.
    5.2 is their default, no less.

    Part of the problem is, PHP does not know the meaning of the word "Stable." It's not wise for programmers to put a product in front of customers which relies on the newest PHP features, or jump on the immediate bandwagon whenever PHP changes some aspect of its direction.

    This is true with a lot of projects, but a business's PHP is just not the place for undocumented features to come and go with the changing wind.

    And, it's hardly laziness when the choice is, market this product we spent 8-12 months developing, vs take it back to the drawing board for another 6 months while we try to keep up with whatever fad or axe-grinding swept most-recently through Zend.

    If you've ever heard someone (rightly) say that savvy Windows users tend to stay one version behind because a new Microsoft product is not to be trusted with your productivity... it's the same way with PHP.

    New Stable is for hobbyists, and shops that can't survive without the newest features. Old Stable is for people who would rather spend time making money, not geeking out.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Hello,

    We always stay in the previous stable version, before upgrading, unless we find it necessary to upgrade to the latest stable. We always communicate the users when we are planning to upgrade the php versions available for them.
    FelWeb Network
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanHawks View Post
    Part of the problem is, PHP does not know the meaning of the word "Stable." It's not wise for programmers to put a product in front of customers which relies on the newest PHP features, or jump on the immediate bandwagon whenever PHP changes some aspect of its direction.


    This is true with a lot of projects, but a business's PHP is just not the place for undocumented features to come and go with the changing wind.

    Agreed, but.....



    Quote Originally Posted by NathanHawks View Post
    And, it's hardly laziness when the choice is, market this product we spent 8-12 months developing, vs take it back to the drawing board for another 6 months while we try to keep up with whatever fad or axe-grinding swept most-recently through Zend.

    If you've ever heard someone (rightly) say that savvy Windows users tend to stay one version behind because a new Microsoft product is not to be trusted with your productivity... it's the same way with PHP.

    True. Anything "new" tends to to buggy until it's all worked out, but they still make the software for new and old systems.




    Quote Originally Posted by NathanHawks View Post
    New Stable is for hobbyists, and shops that can't survive without the newest features. Old Stable is for people who would rather spend time making money, not geeking out.

    Yes and no. Yes....keeps things operating in a safe environment so you can leave it and not worry. No, because when things break, it tends to create the "OMG we need to fix now" it now scenario. WordPress themes are a perfect example. Some themes (stock or customized), setup 4-5 years ago, still going, no issues......others, broken and all sorts of errors. Really it's more the fault of the designer and some bad codes, but a lot of public knowledge is out there in terms of how to (and how not to) code to sustain the life of the product.

  9. #34
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    Sep 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by 48-14 View Post
    Yes and no. Yes....keeps things operating in a safe environment so you can leave it and not worry. No, because when things break, it tends to create the "OMG we need to fix now" it now scenario. WordPress themes are a perfect example. Some themes (stock or customized), setup 4-5 years ago, still going, no issues......others, broken and all sorts of errors. Really it's more the fault of the designer and some bad codes, but a lot of public knowledge is out there in terms of how to (and how not to) code to sustain the life of the product.
    Sure, you have to keep ahead of EOL and stay within the security patch zone. I'd never recommend staying so far behind that you can't get security updates to your series.

    Basically you _do_ want to upgrade every time a .X revision comes out... but as PHP versioning trends sit, you may want to stay 2 versions behind (meaning, skip new, and skip new stable). Meaning when PHP 5.6 comes out it'll probably be time for everyone to get on the 5.4 train as the oldest acceptable version.

    As you point out with WP templates, this scheme is no guarantee you'll avoid all problems forever, no matter your role in the ecology. I consider it the best balance between availability of modern features, and availability of fully-functioning apps during the prime of an individual version's life-cycle.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanHawks View Post
    Sure, you have to keep ahead of EOL and stay within the security patch zone. I'd never recommend staying so far behind that you can't get security updates to your series.

    Basically you _do_ want to upgrade every time a .X revision comes out... but as PHP versioning trends sit, you may want to stay 2 versions behind (meaning, skip new, and skip new stable). Meaning when PHP 5.6 comes out it'll probably be time for everyone to get on the 5.4 train as the oldest acceptable version.

    As you point out with WP templates, this scheme is no guarantee you'll avoid all problems forever, no matter your role in the ecology. I consider it the best balance between availability of modern features, and availability of fully-functioning apps during the prime of an individual version's life-cycle.
    Exactly. I'm also happy with staying with a stable version of something to avoid headaches. I was still running XP on a few machines until a year.

    But as you mentioned about upgrades are the security patches. Cases where things are absolute EOL is more of my concern. If 10 vendors/programmers/designers could put together a needed product to last many years, why could't number 11 do the same. Why does number 11 not think ahead instead of making it for "the now".

  11. #36
    We run 5.4 on most of our servers. Our policy is to inform clients a week before any major php upgrade to make sure their software is up to date, and apart from the odd hicup everything works well.

  12. #37
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    Sep 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by kernow View Post
    We run 5.4 on most of our servers. Our policy is to inform clients a week before any major php upgrade to make sure their software is up to date, and apart from the odd hicup everything works well.
    Ouch, only a week? That is nowhere near enough time to test a business's web assets on the new version, but it is enough time to transfer away...

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanHawks View Post
    Ouch, only a week? That is nowhere near enough time to test a business's web assets on the new version, but it is enough time to transfer away...
    A week is more than enough. We monitor our logs constantly. And fix php problems usually in minutes

  14. #39
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    Sep 2013
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    I just think about the businesses who have let their web apps coast forever. You know, if it ain't broke, etc. New versions of PHP sometimes deprecate legacy ways of doing things. I've never seen a host/customer relationship where it was the host's responsibility to guarantee compatibility for the customer's base of apps. So if someone's storefront uses an app written for PHP 3, that app might advertise as being compatible with "PHP 3+" when in reality a quarter of the code is listed as "will be deprecated" in the PHP manual.

    Obviously few of those customers would ever take advantage of the upgrade warning no matter how much time you give them, but for those that do, I imagine the testing scenario involves hiring a freelancer to set the app up on the target version of PHP and having both the freelancer and the shop's staff, test. Just selecting a freelancer might take the week... scheduling who will test when, and how testing is done, and how bugs are to be handled, could take another week - so that's two weeks just to get started. Another week to gain traction and get preliminary results.

    All this, versus, abandoning host at the first sign that the upgrade will cause costs.

    I am all for keeping PHP relatively updated, just to be clear... and I guess a week's warning might be better than some hosts provide. But I'd be very curious to see a graph of customers transferring away, filtered to only higher-traffic sites, plotted against the dates of these warnings.

    Of course, seeing said graph might give me nothing but a reason to shut up and say you're right

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibb View Post
    Well, when I asked many users why they are not upgrading that was the main reason. Because there is no upgrade from 1.5 to 2.

    It has to be done manually and most of this users donīt know how to do it or just donīt want to work, not sure what the reason is either. So they decide to stick with 1.5 for ever, even while they get hacked multiple times, some people prefer to suffer it seems. Instead of just upgrading once, they prefer to keep fixing their outdated installs over and over again.
    We just had a client who manages about 10 joomla 1.5 sites and we forced our clients to upgrade their sites by pushing 5.4. We notified our clients month in advance, created a dev box with php 5.4 and installed the apps that are popular on our servers. As someone said earlier, WP, Joomla did not break on 5.4; but when we went live on one box we found that many of our Joomla 2.5 client were seeing errors. The resolution to the errors for many was them changing Error Reporting in their joomla.

    @nibb Regarding upgrading from Joomla 1.5 - 2.5; a client just upgraded all of his sites in a couple of hours using jupgrade. In fact he opened a Ticket to tell us how easy the first one was and how easy it was. He did say that there was a few components that were not compatible with 2.5 but found a similar component.

    We are moving all of our shared boxes to 5.4 as primary and 5.3 as an option until EOL for 5.3. We also tell our clients that its important to stay up to date with their application in order to reduce the potential exploits and hacks that occur on outdated & EOL applications.

    My 2Cents
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  16. #41
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    906
    Can't you just send an email out saying you will be updating to PHP 5.4 like 2 weeks before you do it?
    Some useful tutorials for VPSes...
    Set up an unmanaged Linux VPS to host websites
    (avoid having to pay for cPanel)
    Install a GUI on a Linux VPS with RDP (cheap alternative to paying for a Windows license if you need a basic remote workstation)

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanHawks View Post
    I am all for keeping PHP relatively updated, just to be clear... and I guess a week's warning might be better than some hosts provide. But I'd be very curious to see a graph of customers transferring away, filtered to only higher-traffic sites, plotted against the dates of these warnings.

    Of course, seeing said graph might give me nothing but a reason to shut up and say you're right
    All I can tell you is that in over 10 years we have never had a client transfer away because of php or any software issues. Telling clients their website will be a security risk if they continue to run outdated apps always works we guess

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