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  1. #1
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    Downsides of AppLogic?

    So... I'd like to hear everyones input on the downsides and/or comparisons to other 'cloud' solutions for AppLogic...

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    No built-in control panel for customers. Not necessarily downside as you can purchase third party solution for this (just additional money)
    No Infiniband support (yet)
    No tiered storage--e.g., SAS pool, SSD pool, etc (yet)

    But the upside, including their pricing structure, outweighs the downsides, IMO.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by FHDave View Post
    But the upside, including their pricing structure, outweighs the downsides, IMO.
    Last time I checked, it was $75 per processor used (as many cores per processor). It's not so great for anyone deploying E3 servers.
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  4. #4
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    $75 per proc per month?

    They also have perpetual license, which, IMO, is what make it a sweet deal.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by FHDave View Post
    $75 per proc per month?

    They also have perpetual license, which, IMO, is what make it a sweet deal.
    I spoke to BirdHosting and got a quote through them. I did not receive any perpetual licensing options. Could you share their perpetual pricing?
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  6. #6
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    For perpetual, I think you will have to go direct with CA. I am not sure if I can give the pricing in public. I will ask my CA rep.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by FHDave View Post
    For perpetual, I think you will have to go direct with CA. I am not sure if I can give the pricing in public. I will ask my CA rep.
    Can you give a range? Also is perpetual per core, processor, or server?
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  8. #8
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    Applogic charge by socket, regardless of cores. This is another thing that makes them more attractive, compared to OnApp. In fact, I think OnApp is the only virtualization platform out there that charges by core.

    There is also mandatory 20% yearly support fee for all perpetual license and they may want you to sign a one year, two years, or three years contract (support contract is mandatory over this period).
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  9. #9
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    I think support isn't as good as onapp.

  10. #10
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    Hello,

    Applogic is really a completely unstable collection of loosely-connected perl scripts.

    Here's a quick run down of the issues I have noted in large public cloud installations from partners of CA (more than 50-100 nodes total running this software [not all in the same grid])

    * Block redundancy is totally worthless. They use MD over network block device (NBD) and have no write guarantee's. If a node goes down, its hard to tell which node is consistent. NBD is old, and I have no idea why they use it.
    * Failover counts on a central system for tracking the "grid" (ALDO system)
    * When we asked what kind of switches they tested with and recommended, we were told to use a flat, dumb switch for the "backbone" which made no sense
    * Multiple instabilities and total grid failures were noted over the use of the product ~1yr experience
    * Upgrades required full "grid" downtime which defeats the whole purpose of an HA platform
    * Support was non existent and generally did not provide root cause for failures when requested

    Steer clear of this product. It's a joke... its a nice front end, pretty way to draw out environments but when it comes to the stability many enterprises demand, it simply did not deliver. If price is all you are after, give it a shot but be prepared for data corruption and sub par performance. You would be better off taking your time and heartache and investing in a real platform. Even OnApp was more stable when we tested it, and it still had its issues with its software network bridge driver

    Good luck!
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdmoNet View Post
    Even OnApp was more stable when we tested it, and it still had its issues with its software network bridge driver
    Hey - could you help me out and just quickly ping me an email ([email protected]) with just a few lines on the software network bridge driver issues you saw when testing OnApp?

    Really appreciate it.

    Thanks


    D
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  12. #12
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    Ditlev-

    Messaging you now.

    Thanks,
    Adam
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  13. #13
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    AdmoNet, when did you test it and what version? AppLogic no longer uses ALDO, it uses the BFC. And, failover isn't dependent on the BFC, it's handled by the Grid Controller, which is hosted on the grid.

    As for hardware, they do have a complete list of certified hardware including switches now.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTY View Post
    AdmoNet, when did you test it and what version? AppLogic no longer uses ALDO, it uses the BFC. And, failover isn't dependent on the BFC, it's handled by the Grid Controller, which is hosted on the grid.

    As for hardware, they do have a complete list of certified hardware including switches now.
    Hello,

    This was 6mo ago or so.

    Still did they fix the issues with how storage was handled?
    The certified switching we were using was a common Cisco 2960G (6-8mo ago) and we were told to try a "dumb flat switch" by their techs.....

    I don't believe they have solved the storage issue or some of the stability issues we experienced. We had multiple higher level CA guys out who did nothing to fix the issues.

    Thanks,
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  15. #15
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    I dont understand how what layer2 switch you use would have any effect on the software... layer2 is layer2...

  16. #16
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    AppLogic requires that Spanning Tree be disabled on the ports used by grid nodes. It's true you can simply use a dumb switch, or just configure a managed switch to meet the requirements. We've tested with both Dell and Cisco switches, and 0 problems with either.

  17. #17
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    Good luck all... the product still is not enterprise ready. CA even admitted to it when we were talking to them. My 2c is to stick with an enterprise product that is test and reliable.
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  18. #18
    Hi Guys,

    What exactly is perpetual licensing? Don't need any pricing, but I'm new to the hosting business and looking to learn a few things.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by korben44 View Post
    Hi Guys,

    What exactly is perpetual licensing? Don't need any pricing, but I'm new to the hosting business and looking to learn a few things.
    Perpetual just means you own the license and you can usually use it forever vs. leasing it. You will usually still pay for support but its more of an initial capex vs. montly recurring charges.

    Good luck!
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  20. #20
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    We tested AppLogic for some time. I would not claim that we have tested it exhaustively, but we have not encountered any problem you have described. It was rock solid during our test. And we did many disruptive tests, such as force remove a node from the grid, abruptly shut down all switches, etc. Have yet to see any issues with our test grid.

    If there is indeed many issues with the product and it is, as you claim, not enterprise ready, I am sure there will be other people reporting the issues as well? Do you know of any other people having the same issues you are having? Perhaps the issue was unique to you? Perhaps you did not follow their suggested deployment setup (e.g., disabling STP, etc)?

    We still have our test grid. If you can tell us what we need to do to replicate the issues you saw, we would be more than happy to try replicating it. Until it's replicated, and since there has no been anybody else reporting the issues, I would say the issue seems unique to you. Certainly not a valid ground to claim the entire product is not enterprise ready.
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  21. #21
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    I am glad you had good luck with it.

    The issue was not unique to us this was in 3-4 different environments in different datacenters.

    I do not need you to replicate the issues we have a different solution now. The NBD and software raid on top of that is a large issue, its not something that is unique to any environment its how the software was poorly designed. We had two dedicated people to support a small environment because it broke so much. I worked with another company who I cannot mention and they too had tons of issues.

    As far as enterprise ready, the execs we worked with a CA (and our sales rep) admitted via email that this platform was not enterprise ready. They came out and visited us on site and worked with a client having issues... I am not sure if you are affiliated with CA but I am just telling what our experience was. It's NOT enterprise ready according to the people who make the software.

    Good luck
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  22. #22
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    Anyway... nice try to stick up for the product. We're not going to issue a full dissertation about our testing procedures, our environment, if it was Applogic approved etc... it most certainly was... we spent weeks of man hours on the phone with them... the platform is not enterprise ready and that is our findings. This isn't an attempt to bash them with fasle experiences. It's what really happend with real hardware in real environments.

    Please let me know if you have any other questions but we lived this nightmare for weeks on end.
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  23. #23
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    What applogic version were you testing?
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  24. #24
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    I think it was 2.9.1... its been a while.. maybe they have cleaned up things. Oh well I am done talking about it.. it was a painful time of my life
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  25. #25
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    There are few other companies here that have large deployment of applogic, running for years as I recall. Waiting for them to chime in.
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  26. #26
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    No worries I guess we just had a freak case... even though the company who sells the software admitted to its major flaws. I am unsubscribing from this thread.

    Good luck with your future hosting ventures
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  27. #27
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    While I'm not a proponent of AppLogic anymore, I do take issue with AdmoNet's analysis. We have been running AppLogic now for 6 years, and while we did initially experience stability problems, we now have grids that have been running with up to 500 VMs on them for over two years with no customer-visible failures (in other words, not handled by AppLogic's HA.)

    We also have never lost a byte of customer data that they didn't delete themselves: the storage technology that it uses reliably preserves user data. Our reliable grids have versions from 2.8 on, and many of the issues that AdmoNet raised are from versions that are one to two back from the current release.

    The issues that we have experienced with it are that it is not truly multi-tenant, which has made running a multi tenant cloud infrastructure on it a challenge. There is 3rd-party software that addresses this problem, however.
    We have also experienced a drop in support since CA bought the technology, but because we're experts at managing the system, we haven't suffered from that. And finally, the back end networking and storage subsystem are not adequate to provide the performance for large grids. Going to 10GbE can solve part of the problem, but does not eliminate it. Also, running Windows on AppLogic can expose users to slow startup times for VMs, but once they're up they run well.

    As an a step up from shared hosting or low-end dedicated servers, or for deploying multi-vm self-managed "private clouds", AppLogic is a viable choice. It is not a high performance enterprise-grade cloud solution like a VMWare system would be that was based on high performance networking and SAN storage, which is why we no longer are taking new orders for it, since our business is to provide enterprise-grade virtual colocation/IT services.

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  28. #28
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    I've always been impressed with 3Tera/Applogic's way of dealing with storage, but I honestly don't know the system that well. A few questions:
    - Does it support deduplication ?
    - Thin provisioning? I think it does, right?
    - Can you define the level of redundancy per account? So, like a $99/mo client would have less redundancy than a $999/mo client?
    - Can you guarantee IO per drive/account/VM? So, like a $99/mo client would have less IO's guaranteed than a $999/mo client?
    - How does it deal with network IO, do you need 10g or multipath gig's for it to do well?
    - Can you automatically allocate the most access files to the fastest drives?
    - How does it deal with cache? Can you allocate specific drives (like SSD/FusionIO) to act as cache?
    - Does it have an object storage (S3 compatible) interface as well?
    - Does it support snapshots with a time-machine like filebased functionality?
    - Can you define a read-local, write distributed rule to ensure performance in low-throughput scenarios?

    Anyone here able to help out?


    D
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    OnApp.com & SolusVM.com + Cloud.net & CDN.net

  29. #29
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    What?? Did you decide to move your debate and sales attempt from the other thread in colo over to this one?

    SO let me ask you a couple of questions?
    What will be the cost of your new storage per gig? Will it be in addition to the already per core charge for onapp?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Techark View Post
    What?? Did you decide to move your debate and sales attempt from the other thread in colo over to this one?

    SO let me ask you a couple of questions?
    What will be the cost of your new storage per gig? Will it be in addition to the already per core charge for onapp?
    Since this thread is about Applogic, I won't plague the thread with OnApp discussion. I was simply trying to get a better understanding of the Applogic storage setup...


    D
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
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  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Techark View Post
    What?? Did you decide to move your debate and sales attempt from the other thread in colo over to this one?

    SO let me ask you a couple of questions?
    What will be the cost of your new storage per gig? Will it be in addition to the already per core charge for onapp?
    Calm down.

    I'd like to know the answers to these questions as well. As to thinking it's just a list of features onapp does have, it clearly isn't. Onapp storage doesn't claim to have object (s3 style) storage, it also has been publicly stated it doesn't have caching yet, and it sounds like it doesn't automatic file allocation based on popularity, and probably doesn't have a few other features listed yet either. These are legitimate questions to ask and it's no wonder someone involved in a storage product would have them.
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  32. #32
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    I haven't heard eming state what his offers or doesn't as fact?
    Have you? Are these a list of features his new storage has or not?
    He is being very vague about it all.

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by funkywizard View Post
    These are legitimate questions to ask and it's no wonder someone involved in a storage product would have them.
    While I agree with you, and want to know the answers as well I am somewhat bothered by the way Ditlev has approached the discussion. We are not stupid, and frankly I would think less of Ditlev and the OnApp team if he didn't already know the answers to these questions prior to beginning the development of such a massive product. I'd be willing to bet he has done significant amount of research on AppLogic prior to embarking on such a task.

    Having said that, I do want to know the answer to the questions. Further, I am quite curious, and want to hear more about OnApp Storage (perhaps on the other thread).

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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by forasse View Post
    While I agree with you, and want to know the answers as well I am somewhat bothered by the way Ditlev has approached the discussion. We are not stupid, and frankly I would think less of Ditlev and the OnApp team if he didn't already know the answers to these questions prior to beginning the development of such a massive product. I'd be willing to bet he has done significant amount of research on AppLogic prior to embarking on such a task.
    with the risk of sounding cocky: I have never been too fussed about the competition when building new products. All software products have internal roadmaps already outlined ahead of them, and if I build products at OnApp based on the competition, I would be focusing too much on their current offerings, today, rather than looking at how I feel this should be tomorrow.
    We do not have an Applogic install at the OnApp labs, and while I actually tested it years and years ago, I have not had the pleasure to play around with it since.

    So, no - I would honestly not be able to answer those questions. I really would not. I remember someone spoke about applogic having thin provisioning, but apart from that, I have no idea.

    Anyway, this is not about me/onapp - I'd love for someone to answer the q's


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  36. #36
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    Most of the questions can be answered here.

    http://doc.3tera.com/AppLogic30/Rele...mitations.html

  37. #37
    I haven't tried the recent releases of applogic but we did test it relatively recently. 6 nodes, x3440, 16gb ram, 6 x 500gb wd re3 drives, cisco 3560g & a dell 6228 switch were using in testing. Let's see if I can answer your questions:

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    I've always been impressed with 3Tera/Applogic's way of dealing with storage, but I honestly don't know the system that well. A few questions:
    - Does it support deduplication ?
    Don't recall.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - Thin provisioning? I think it does, right?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - Can you define the level of redundancy per account? So, like a $99/mo client would have less redundancy than a $999/mo client?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - Can you guarantee IO per drive/account/VM? So, like a $99/mo client would have less IO's guaranteed than a $999/mo client?
    Don't believe so.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - How does it deal with network IO, do you need 10g or multipath gig's for it to do well?
    Network is HUGELY limiting. Single vs quad gbps connections did not improve performance. 6 drives per node vs 1 drive per node made no performance difference. Apparently moving to 10gbps will help.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - Can you automatically allocate the most access files to the fastest drives?
    Don't believe so.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - How does it deal with cache? Can you allocate specific drives (like SSD/FusionIO) to act as cache?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - Does it have an object storage (S3 compatible) interface as well?
    Unsure.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - Does it support snapshots with a time-machine like filebased functionality?
    Don't believe so.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    - Can you define a read-local, write distributed rule to ensure performance in low-throughput scenarios?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    Anyone here able to help out?


    D
    We liked the idea of Applogic tremendously. The interface was lacking, especially for clients. To do what we wanted, we needed to also purchase a 3rd party front end and that was very pricey. But what we couldn't get over was the disk performance. Applogic sent us patches and we got conference calls with their engineers, their clients and so on. The level of support there was amazing BUT the performance was poor.

    Applogic has contacted me and said they have improved this area and I hope they have. But I haven't managed to test it.
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  38. #38
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    How poor was your drive performance?

    We will be setting up 10 nodes grid, 6x900 GB SAS 10K/node in RAID0 using Dell PERC H700 and 10Gbps backend. That should give us some awesome performance. I believe Birdhosting tested something similar to this and they were able to get 600 MBps write/read throughput (though I may be mistaken).

    And yes, I was told you can do IOPS metering per VM. You need to hack into it, but it's doable.

    BTW, what 3rd party front end do you use?
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostmind View Post
    We liked the idea of Applogic tremendously. The interface was lacking, especially for clients. To do what we wanted, we needed to also purchase a 3rd party front end and that was very pricey. But what we couldn't get over was the disk performance. Applogic sent us patches and we got conference calls with their engineers, their clients and so on. The level of support there was amazing BUT the performance was poor.

    Applogic has contacted me and said they have improved this area and I hope they have. But I haven't managed to test it.
    Thanks a lot for your feedback. Appreciate it!


    Quote Originally Posted by FHDave View Post
    I believe Birdhosting tested something similar to this and they were able to get 600 MBps write/read throughput (though I may be mistaken).
    Point 19 here: http://doc.3tera.com/AppLogic30/Rele...mitations.html
    The maximum network throughput between appliances running on different servers is 3.8Gbps when using a 10G backbone
    When using a 10G backbone, the maximum throughput that can be achieved between appliances running on different servers is 3.8Gbps
    That would be plenty in most cases though.
    Quote Originally Posted by FHDave View Post
    And yes, I was told you can do IOPS metering per VM. You need to hack into it, but it's doable.
    Meetering is cool, I think that IOPS will be a currency like ram/cpu soon. But the real magic comes in guaranteeing IOPS to certain VM's/clients - QoS stuff. Doable?
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    1,241
    Quote Originally Posted by lostmind View Post
    We liked the idea of Applogic tremendously. The interface was lacking, especially for clients. To do what we wanted, we needed to also purchase a 3rd party front end and that was very pricey. But what we couldn't get over was the disk performance. Applogic sent us patches and we got conference calls with their engineers, their clients and so on. The level of support there was amazing BUT the performance was poor.
    This has been my take/very limited experience with Applogic so far as well.

    I do hope someone with significantly more real-world production-environment Applogic experience will chime in and shed some light on some of the questions/speculations in this thread.
    Thanks,

    Brendan Diaz
    Connect: linkedin.com/in/brendandiaz

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