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  #1  
Old 02-17-2012, 06:14 PM
unity100 unity100 is offline
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Zeitgeist Movement - Anyone has seen this before ?


I heard this before, but for the first time i checked into what they were doing and saying. and it struck me as very curious and thought-provoking.

here is their solution to monetary, property, and financial problems :

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/faq#faq5

Quote:
1 - No Money or Market System
2 - Automation of Labor
3 - Technological Unification of Earth via "Systems" Approach.
4 - Access over Property.
5 - Self-Contained/Localized City and Production Systems.
6 - Science as the Methodology for Governance
Speaking from my engineering background, i can say that items #1, #2, #5 are within the technological capabilities of the planet since one and a half decade, and in fact are being practiced by many big production-supply-sale chains in various megacorporations. (just in time management, production systems, full automated factories, management information systems, no-inventory methods and so on - and yes, i had industrial engineer training). basically many of the megacorporations function like their own self-governing states, with no money used in between divisions (or used as figuratives for accounting ) totally self-sufficient and capable within themselves.

however naturally all these systems and functions, stay within the company. and what we see outside, ends up final product/service and the monetary interaction in between us and the company.

the curious points, are #3 and #4.



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  #2  
Old 02-17-2012, 06:28 PM
unity100 unity100 is offline
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However to do this, the traditional labor system we have simply cannot exist. The reality is that our labor for income system is stifling progress in its requirement to "keep people working" for the sake of "economic stability". We are reaching a stage where the efficiency of automation is overriding and making obsolete the system of labor for income. This trend shows no sign of slowing, especially in regard to the now dominant Service Industry, which is increasingly being automated in the form of kiosks, robotics and other forms. Likewise, due to phenomena related to Moore's law and the growing in-expense of computers and machines, it is likely that it is simply a matter of time before corporations simply can not rationalize keeping human labor anymore, as the automation systems will become too cheap. Of course, this is a paradoxical market phenomenon, called by some theorists as "the contradiction of capitalism", for it is, in effect, removing the consumer (laborer) itself and hence reducing consumption.
this, for example, was a point passed looooong ago.

back in 1995, we were touring the prominent factories in industrial zone of turkey. (with our university class). and we visited toyota factory (which was serving middle east and europe). there were only 300 workers there. highly trained indeed, very highly trained. but mere 300 people. then there was the arcelik factory which was exporting dishwashers to europe. we havent particularly visited it, however we knew it well from various studies - it was heavily automated, and had the highest output rate of any diswasher factory within europe. it was working only at 40% or so capacity, because, if it worked at 100% capacity, the output would go high over the demand and it would start building inventory.

even in around 1995, with the limited digitization, it was possible to create highly self-contained management systems, automating and integrating many factories in different countries and regions, and organizing the flow of goods, materials, and even personnel in between these.

imagine how it is now, with all these devices, internet, mobiles, software and systems.


Last edited by unity100; 02-17-2012 at 06:35 PM.
  #3  
Old 02-17-2012, 07:35 PM
mg- mg- is offline
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The last labor position to go will be mechanics.. until there is automation of mechanical repair, there will be mechanics...

So be a mechanic! last labor job of the world!

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Old 02-17-2012, 08:43 PM
unity100 unity100 is offline
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Originally Posted by mg- View Post
The last labor position to go will be mechanics.. until there is automation of mechanical repair, there will be mechanics...

So be a mechanic! last labor job of the world!
quite. in 1995 it was in high demand. everyone was going for the 4 year university curriculum which taught engineering, finance etc. noone was going for the mid-level jobs. situation was so apparent and future looked so grim that government had to take measures to incentivize mid-level jobs so that industry would not crawl to a halt some 5-6 years later. its now around 20 years later, and situation is still the same. mid level jobs are in high demand and find higher paid jobs than engineering jobs. (may depend on the field in demand too somewhat).

but, there is no end to automation. those jobs would eventually also get automated.

  #5  
Old 02-18-2012, 06:10 PM
Gerrit Gerrit is offline
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I don't see the whole idea as realistic. The mentality of people will have to change (even if at some points through being forced, eg birth control to avoid overpopulation going even further than it already has gone to this point), this is the only way that things can really change. We need to change the mentality from selfism and egoism to a more social thinking and tolerance and solidarity. People not just working towards achieving their own goals, but also towards achieving a common goal that is a well functioning society of equal rights and without poverty.

Any economical system will fail (unless enforced but then we go on thin ice when human rights are concerned) when people will not change their way of thinking. I'm very sceptic towards this new movement, it seems just another brick in a wall of proposals, the one more unrealistic than the other...

Automating things done by manual labor now? First of all such systems are not flawless, someone has to surveil that they are functioning well and come in whenever a part of the software would not function or poorly function. Some human hand is needed to start and maintain the infrastructure for replacing human labor by automatic labor. Now if all goes automatic, basically unemployment amongst humans will peak, unless a human is rewarded for work not done by him but by a machine representing him. I don't see how this will ever work without there occuring so much flaws that the "solution" is causing more problems than it solves.

  #6  
Old 02-18-2012, 06:15 PM
M Bacon M Bacon is offline
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Have you seen the 2011 film that just came out? http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

Peter Joseph is going to release a new one in 2012.

  #7  
Old 02-19-2012, 08:15 AM
unity100 unity100 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerrit View Post
I don't see the whole idea as realistic. The mentality of people will have to change (even if at some points through being forced, eg birth control to avoid overpopulation going even further than it already has gone to this point), this is the only way that things can really change.
population growth is not a problem. we are at a very high level in regard to technology in this year of 2012. productivity and yield is exceptionally high. but, as an example, millions of tonnes of grain rot in warehouses in usa or other places, in order to keep grain prices at a certain level. if they were put to market, grain prices would fall a lot. same goes for many other things. like the dishwasher factory example i gave.

in the end all of these are happening to enable profiting over commodities and services. and the profits made, goes to a very small percent of the society. if it went to the majority, that majority would spend, and then the original premise of this system would be kept, and things would be a lot better. but the system reinforces consolidation of wealth in a neverending cyclic format. so, eventually all wealth consolidate at hands which have little desire or need to use it.

Quote:
Any economical system will fail (unless enforced but then we go on thin ice when human rights are concerned) when people will not change their way of thinking. I'm very sceptic towards this new movement, it seems just another brick in a wall of proposals, the one more unrealistic than the other...
skepticism ends up in conserving what you have. intended or not.

in a systems logic, the proposed solution is sound. if noone can own (hence control) anything, noone can command others. any kind of authority, economic or political, would have to be democratic. if you allow everyone to access anything, then you also remove one of the last major hurdles behind such a system.

Quote:
Automating things done by manual labor now? First of all such systems are not flawless, someone has to surveil that they are functioning well and come in whenever a part of the software would not function or poorly function. Some human hand is needed to start and maintain the infrastructure for replacing human labor by automatic labor.
less than a dozen engineers and a few dozen workers can run a major factory in today's standards, if the country that it is built on allows extensive automation (hence reduction of labor/employment) already.

Quote:
Now if all goes automatic, basically unemployment amongst humans will peak, unless a human is rewarded for work not done by him but by a machine representing him. I don't see how this will ever work without there occuring so much flaws that the "solution" is causing more problems than it solves.
im at a loss to see what you are trying to say here. the only thing i understand is, you have not read what those people are saying. 'unemployment' is not a problem in the system they propose. noone will have to work for survival. individuals will engage in activities they want, and only because they want. it is certain that at this point reading this will sound 'utopic'. it is not. if the ~90% wealth that the minority of society is hoarding without using was released into the society, that would be a reality even in this system.

and reward ? the activity, should be its own reward. and it is. things people do because they love them, are rewards in themselves.

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Old 02-19-2012, 05:51 PM
unity100 unity100 is offline
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http://9gag.com/gag/2571431

wow !

see ? even stuff like that is possible.

  #9  
Old 02-21-2012, 07:29 AM
Gerrit Gerrit is offline
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Originally Posted by unity100 View Post
population growth is not a problem. we are at a very high level in regard to technology in this year of 2012. productivity and yield is exceptionally high. but, as an example, millions of tonnes of grain rot in warehouses in usa or other places, in order to keep grain prices at a certain level. if they were put to market, grain prices would fall a lot. same goes for many other things. like the dishwasher factory example i gave.
It is true population growth could be handled if people changed their way of life. There lies a big problem: those in luxury are unlikely to want to give up their privileges for the sake of the planet and its population. There are enough natural resources for the current world population, however not in the way they are currently used.



Quote:
Originally Posted by unity100 View Post
in a systems logic, the proposed solution is sound. if noone can own (hence control) anything, noone can command others. any kind of authority, economic or political, would have to be democratic. if you allow everyone to access anything, then you also remove one of the last major hurdles behind such a system.

I am against democracy in its pure form and in its currently applied form because as long as minority wishes are ignored, you are always gonna let people down. Basically, I don't believe democracy can work with mankind because too many people think about own profit first and only. It would be utopian if it could work though.

I am a proponent of a more authoritarian system. Maybe not the nicest form in theory, but one needed sometimes. Look at Yugoslavia: under Tito, people of different backgrounds and ethnicities lived more or less peacefully together, even if it was in a somewhat forced manner. There was total mayhem though when Tito died and no other person could continue his way of leadership. He certainly was authoritarian, but it did work to maintain a relative stability in his country which was respected by communist and capitalist countries alike.

I don't believe democracy is a necessary failure, but I do think it has to be reformed as I don't believe in the current format.


Quote:
Originally Posted by unity100 View Post
im at a loss to see what you are trying to say here. the only thing i understand is, you have not read what those people are saying. 'unemployment' is not a problem in the system they propose. noone will have to work for survival. individuals will engage in activities they want, and only because they want. it is certain that at this point reading this will sound 'utopic'. it is not. if the ~90% wealth that the minority of society is hoarding without using was released into the society, that would be a reality even in this system.

and reward ? the activity, should be its own reward. and it is. things people do because they love them, are rewards in themselves.
That sounds good I have heard theories before which were quite realistic, stating that if people would be satisfied with a reasonable dose of confort and not always strive for more comfort for themselves, people could get work organised in such a way that each person would have only a 10 hours working week. This would demand sacrifices from those bathing in wealth and luxury though, and this is where the theory becomes hard to put into practice.

  #10  
Old 02-21-2012, 09:31 AM
unity100 unity100 is offline
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Originally Posted by Gerrit View Post
It is true population growth could be handled if people changed their way of life. There lies a big problem: those in luxury are unlikely to want to give up their privileges for the sake of the planet and its population. There are enough natural resources for the current world population, however not in the way they are currently used.
thankfully, those who are actually enjoying the luxuries do not make even 5% of the population.


Quote:
I am against democracy in its pure form and in its currently applied form because as long as minority wishes are ignored, you are always gonna let people down. Basically, I don't believe democracy can work with mankind because too many people think about own profit first and only. It would be utopian if it could work though.

I am a proponent of a more authoritarian system. Maybe not the nicest form in theory, but one needed sometimes. Look at Yugoslavia: under Tito, people of different backgrounds and ethnicities lived more or less peacefully together, even if it was in a somewhat forced manner. There was total mayhem though when Tito died and no other person could continue his way of leadership. He certainly was authoritarian, but it did work to maintain a relative stability in his country which was respected by communist and capitalist countries alike.

I don't believe democracy is a necessary failure, but I do think it has to be reformed as I don't believe in the current format.
the only autocracy needed in a democracy is the prevention of minority selfish to command others. ie 'i want it all, i want it more, im better than you' delusion.

in an environment in which all your needs are met, you are free to do whatever you choose in that particular day and hour, what more do you need.

Quote:
That sounds good I have heard theories before which were quite realistic, stating that if people would be satisfied with a reasonable dose of confort and not always strive for more comfort for themselves, people could get work organised in such a way that each person would have only a 10 hours working week. This would demand sacrifices from those bathing in wealth and luxury though, and this is where the theory becomes hard to put into practice.
the funny part is, we are not having any more comforts or luxuries now, than what we would have in that kind of situation. the ones who try hardest or strike lucky get on rather upscale parts of the 10% middle class. and they spend their lives for it. if the system changed and the 72%~ wealth that is being hoarded by the 5% was distributed, everyone would easily live in middle class standards, and everyone would work less for it and would have time to do other stuff. not to mention no more prozac, psychiatrist trips, conflicts, relationship problems, angst, anger and so on.

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