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  1. #1
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    Sending DMCA complaint to a European Provider

    For nearly a week now, I've been sending DMCA's to both Leaseweb and their customer.

    Their customer simply ignores me (no surprise), but seeing that Leaseweb is a fairly reputable host, I would expect that they take copyright infringement more seriously than they do.


    Response from Leaseweb:
    Dear sir/madam,
    In response to your complaint I inform you.

    Thanks for contacting LeaseWeb. LeaseWeb has a policy banning illegal
    distribution of copyrighted material.
    In order to process copyright infringement claims, please ensure you
    claim adheres to the Dutch Notice and Takedown Code of Conduct. This
    means you have to first contact the infringing website, only if they do
    not reply or their reply is unsatisfactory you can escalate to the
    hosting provider. Please include a copy of your communication(s) with
    the website when you file your claim again.
    Failure to adhere to the Dutch Notice and Takedown Code of Conduct will
    mean that we will request you to first contact the infringing website.
    This will result in a considerable delay in processing your complaint.
    As you have not indicated or proved you have tried to contact the
    website please follow the procedure as described above, please allow 5
    working days for a response from the website. If you have not received a
    response after 5 days you can contact us again. Please provide proof you
    contacted or tried to contact the website so we can process your claim
    expeditiously.

    If you have already done all the above, then please respond to this
    message, so your ticket will open again, and you claim can be progressed.

    Kind regards,

    Lesley Koomen
    Leaseweb - Security
    Of course, I respond to the message explaining I've already went down that road.
    I never hear back from Leaseweb.

    I re-filed the DMCA with a CC to Leaseweb and their customer - Leaseweb responds with the same exact message!

    I am aware DMCA is a US law & overseas hosts are not required to comply.
    However, hosts in China, Russia and Brazil have took action almost instantaneously; China and Russia aren't exactly known for complying with copyright issues.

    My next route is to file DMCA's with Google, Bing etc on the offending URLs. I imagine doing so could potentially taint Leaseweb's IP pool. Sucks for their legit customers..

  2. #2
    Hi, generally a letter from a lawyer is more effective. Did you tried that?

  3. #3
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    My next route is to file DMCA's with Google, Bing etc on the offending URLs. I imagine doing so could potentially taint Leaseweb's IP pool. Sucks for their legit customers..
    No, it does not "taint their IP pool" or touch their IP pool.

    This is your problem: you are trying to send non-valid crap. You don't need a lawyer.

    Read up on how to send a proper takedown according to Dutch law and they will remove it very promptly. I've gotten content removed from LW in less than 12 hours very fast without issues, they are very compliant with local laws and very cooperative.

    (hurr usa internet police)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by quantumphysics View Post
    No, it does not "taint their IP pool" or touch their IP pool.

    This is your problem: you are trying to send non-valid crap. You don't need a lawyer.

    Read up on how to send a proper takedown according to Dutch law and they will remove it very promptly. I've gotten content removed from LW in less than 12 hours very fast without issues, they are very compliant with local laws and very cooperative.
    I agree; a lawyer is not needed. The vast majority of DMCA's I've filed have been taken down, irregardless of location. Leaseweb is the only host that has argued with me about taking the files down.

    Instead of telling me I'm doing it wrong (if I were, other hosts wouldn't have complied), how about offering a worthy explanation to how I do "valid crap", instead.

  5. #5
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    DMCA is a US law. Leaseweb is a Dutch company.

    Why would you expect a US law to have jurisdiction over a Dutch company? It makes no sense.

    The reply from Leaseweb clearly stated as much:

    "please ensure you claim adheres to the DUTCH Notice and Takedown Code of Conduct"

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by continuation View Post
    DMCA is a US law. Leaseweb is a Dutch company.

    Why would you expect a US law to have jurisdiction over a Dutch company? It makes no sense.

    The reply from Leaseweb clearly stated as much:

    "please ensure you claim adheres to the DUTCH Notice and Takedown Code of Conduct"
    Did you read my post?
    Hosts from CHINA and RUSSIA have complied to my DMCA requests. They didn't have to, but based on the proof offered in my DMCA they were able to determine the content in question was pirated, and removed it. I fail to see why anything different should be expected of Leaseweb.

    "please ensure you claim adheres to the DUTCH Notice and Takedown Code of Conduct"
    I am not from Holland, they did not supply any information regarding this, nor did they respond to any of my (many) queries regarding these files with instructions how I comply with "Dutch Takedown Code of Conduct".

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpl24 View Post
    Did you read my post?
    Hosts from CHINA and RUSSIA have complied to my DMCA requests. They didn't have to, but based on the proof offered in my DMCA they were able to determine the content in question was pirated, and removed it. I fail to see why anything different should be expected of Leaseweb.
    Yes I read your post and it was nonsense.

    What does Leaseweb have ANYTHING to do with hosts from China and Russia?

    Are you telling me just because some Chinese and Russian hosts did something Leaseweb must do it too??

    If you "fail" to understand the simple fact that Leaseweb is a totally different entity from those "hosts from China and Russia" then nothing can help you.

    I am not from Holland, they did not supply any information regarding this, nor did they respond to any of my (many) queries regarding these files with instructions how I comply with "Dutch Takedown Code of Conduct".
    If you want a Dutch company to take down files based on Dutch laws, it's your responsibility to learn about Dutch laws. Just like if someone from the Netherlands wants a US host to take down some files, it'd be his responsibility to learn about DMCA. Simple as that.

  8. #8
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    They take their time.. they usually comply eventually though. Ecatel is far worst.

  9. #9
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    Are you telling me just because some Chinese and Russian hosts do something Leaseweb must do it too??
    Uhhh, yeah?
    If a host from a known piracy safe-haven country can see the files are pirated and takes them down without issue, why can't Leaseweb?

    If you "fail" to understand the simple fact that Leaseweb is a totally different entity from those "hosts from China and Russia" then nothing can help you.
    What is your point with this?

    If you want a Dutch company to take down files based on Dutch laws, it's your responsibility to learn about Dutch laws. Just like if someone from the Netherlands wants a US host to take down some files, it'd be his responsibility to learn about DMCA. Simple as that.
    Understood. But as Leaseweb is stating they have per-requisites for file removal, it is also their responsibility to explain what documentation they require, rather than ignoring me.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpl24 View Post
    Uhhh, yeah?
    If a host from a known piracy safe-haven country can see the files are pirated and takes them down without issue, why can't Leaseweb?
    Why should Leaseweb? They made it very clear to you what law you need to follow ("the Dutch Notice and Takedown Code of Conduct").

    It's up to you whether you want to follow the proper law or not.


    What is your point with this?
    My point is that what some hosts in China and Russia did or did not do has nothing to do with a DUTCH company and the DUTCH laws.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpl24 View Post
    Understood. But as Leaseweb is stating they have per-requisites for file removal, it is also their responsibility to explain what documentation they require, rather than ignoring me.
    Sir,

    LeaseWeb has over 40,000 servers running as we speak, it's very difficult for us to hold each complainants hand and guide him step by step into filing a complaint according to the law.

    It would have taken you less time to just google it: http://lsw.to/ydh
    The information is clearly available online and it shouldn't be too difficult to follow it.

    We're very eager to help fight online crime but we need you to help us adhere to the law.

    Thanks for your cooperation.

  12. #12
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    Why should Leaseweb? They made it very clear to you what law you need to follow ("the Dutch Notice and Takedown Code of Conduct").
    Because it's pirated content. Hundreds of other hosts have accepted identical DMCA's as proof of infringement. Leaseweb is not explicitly stating what documents they require, else I would have offered them.

    it's very difficult for us to hold each complainants hand and guide him step by step into filing a complaint according to the law.
    But it would not be difficult to supply an outline of what's required, rather than simply stating "Dutch Notice and Takedown Code of Conduct"
    Would supplying a link in the auto-generated message have been any more difficult than me Googling it?

    Anyway,
    First result: http://www.ecp.nl/sites/default/file...e_Engels_0.pdf
    I am not a lawyer, this legal jargon is not helpful. A simple outline would be expeditious, such as is offered for DMCA all over the web.

    This link: http://www.layar.com/legal/takedown-notice/
    appears to offer something that is more understandable.

    3. How can you report unlawful content and what criteria should your report meet?

    Layar can only assess your report if it relates to specific alleged unlawful information published by a Publisher on the Layar websites and/or within the Reality Browser and if the report meets the requirements set forth by this code.
    Before you produce a report, you must address the Publisher directly.
    Already done. Sent copies to Leaseweb; never heard back.



    Did that, by emailing Leaseweb in the first place.



    You are responsible for ensuring that your report is unambiguous, correct, complete and well substantiated.
    Layar must be able to verify that reports as part of an investigation regarding a criminal offence have originated from an Inspection or Investigation Service, or – in the case of a formal legal order – from the Public Prosecutor’s Office.
    Your Report should at least contain the following information:

    1. Your contact details;
    2. A description of the unlawful content and a statement of the reasons why the Third Party Content is unlawful, illegal or otherwise harmful, in your opinion;
    3. The information that Layar needs to be able to find and evaluate the Third Party Content, at least including the location (URL);
    4. A statement of the reason why Layar is being approached as the most appropriate intermediary to deal with the matter;

    Already included in the DMCA.[/quote]


    1. Proof of failed attempts undertaken by you to contact the Publisher and result of these attempts, e.g. emails;

    As previously stated, sent copies of the original DMCAs that were initiated to their customer previously.[/quote]




    1. An explicit indemnification from you for the benefit of Layar, its contractors, its licensors and their respective directors, officers, employees and agents against any claims from the Publisher or other third parties as a result of measures taken by or on behalf of Layar in the context of dealing with the report;
    Is this law or pertaining to the site copied from? I don't see why I'd want to sue Leaseweb if they remove the material...




    1. If the report regards an alleged infringement of an intellectual property right, like a copyright or trademark, you will have to prove that you are the rightful owner or holder of these rights or that you are entitled to act on behalf of the aforementioned party. In the event of the latter, you will have to provide the identity and contact details of the owner or holder of these rights;
    2. Any other information necessary to assess the report.

    Already provided in the original DMCA.

  13. #13
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    Why are you sending DMCA requests to someone outside of the USA? When we get them for CANADIAN servers, they go right the F in the garbage where they belong. Never mind being across the ocean, I would die from laughter if someone sent me a DMCA for an IP / server in Europe.

    ... and SHAME on any provider outside of the USA that responds to DMCA requests. I'm not for piracy or copyright infringement, but the DMCA is a BS American piece of garbage that should not be enforced when possible - and not being in the USA is a great excuse to not enforce it.

  14. #14
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    So it's ok that people host pirated material and offer it for free for others to download?
    Makes sense. Hope nobody ever rips off anything you've released and has the same attitude when you request it be taken down.

    For the record, every Canadian host I've contacted with the DMCA has complied & removed the offending content.

    I'm not for piracy or copyright infringement
    Everything about your post says otherwise.

  15. #15
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    Patrick will learn the hard way eventually.

    Like you gpl24, we deal with Piracy everyday. I understand your frustration.

  16. #16
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    Thank you GCM, I appreciate it.
    I am all for the web being free, but if I create something, I want to be the one that decides whether or not it's offered for free; that should be nobody's decision but the content creator.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpl24 View Post
    Thank you GCM, I appreciate it.
    I am all for the web being free, but if I create something, I want to be the one that decides whether or not it's offered for free; that should be nobody's decision but the content creator.
    Same, but when you get hilarious responses like this it gets you through the day.

    Dear [redacted],

    You needs to point out which ‘postings’ you feels are infringing,
    simply sending us a 'index url'"
    http://www.[redacted].org/?s=[redacted] is to broad.

    If you list the individual posts like:
    http://www.[redacted].org/[redacted].html
    we can
    take action.

    --
    Met vriendelijke groet / Kind Regards,

  18. #18
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    That is nonsense! Luckily I have not encountered anything on that level, yet.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpl24 View Post
    That is nonsense! Luckily I have not encountered anything on that level, yet.
    Same company you're complaining about now.

    That is into regards to a predominant piracy blog.

  20. #20
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    Yikes.
    Well, you got more of a response than I did. I can't get anything other than auto-generated messages unless I post a salaciously-titled thread on here.

  21. #21
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    Stop complaining on WHT and just follow the rules of Dutch law. If I was Leaseweb and you sent me a DMCA notice, I'd trash it and laugh at you.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by subigo View Post
    Stop complaining on WHT and just follow the rules of Dutch law. If I was Leaseweb and you sent me a DMCA notice, I'd trash it and laugh at you.
    Did you even read the thread?

    Read it. You'll see I've already sent everything; hence my complaining. If Leaseweb requires more than what I've sent, they should state what else they want and quit ignoring my requests for removal.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by subigo View Post
    Stop complaining on WHT and just follow the rules of Dutch law. If I was Leaseweb and you sent me a DMCA notice, I'd trash it and laugh at you.
    "We have never" abuse complaint 'seen. It was a customer where we had no problems." - Alex de Joode
    http://webwereld.nl/nieuws/109260/me...leaseweb-.html

  24. #24
    DMCA deserves to go in the garbage can outside of the US. If you have a movie/music fan site where fan creations are hosted with ZERO of original publisher's original items... you get a hoard of DMCA notices in your inbox by the awesome MAFIAA dmca bots that hits keywords like .mp3, .mov and all their titles...

    DMCA is not a proof, it's a demand. You're free to make demands, but others are free to ignore it as long as no laws are binding. This is why the fact that there are hosts that protect you from these annoyances is a good thing.

  25. #25
    I agree with LeaseWeb in this situation. You should of just followed Dutch Laws as they asked and sent in some Dutch Laws backing your video to get them to take it down.

    If a US policeman goes to another country and starts trying to police people would laugh at him...same goes for this. Just cause another country/host did it, does NOT mean another company would follow your directions without the appropriate and required information.

  26. #26
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    I fail to understand why you guys are focusing on the DMCA aspect.

    Fact in the matter is, their customers are hosting pirated content. I've supplied enough evidence to support the fact that I've already tried to get their customer to take it down (before bothering Leaseweb) and to prove that I'm the content owner.

    If you have a movie/music fan site where fan creations are hosted with ZERO of original publisher's original items... you get a hoard of DMCA notices in your inbox by the awesome MAFIAA dmca bots that hits keywords like .mp3, .mov and all their titles...
    What?
    If you're getting rogue DMCA's with no factual evidence to support it's claim, then whatever - but that is not the case with me and Leaseweb's customer.

    If a US policeman goes to another country and starts trying to police people would laugh at him...same goes for this. Just cause another country/host did it, does NOT mean another company would follow your directions without the appropriate and required information.
    I fail to see your point. Who cares if it was a DMCA or something I wrote by hand?
    Again, their customer is hosting pirated content. I supplied proof it was pirated.

    If Leaseweb is not satisfied with the proof I've offered, they have yet to tell me so.

    You should of just followed Dutch Laws as they asked and sent in some Dutch Laws backing your video to get them to take it down.
    Did you even read the rest of the topic?
    Last edited by gpl24; 02-04-2012 at 07:10 PM.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaseWeb View Post
    Sir,

    LeaseWeb has over 40,000 servers running as we speak, it's very difficult for us to hold each complainants hand and guide him step by step into filing a complaint according to the law.

    It would have taken you less time to just google it: http://lsw.to/ydh
    The information is clearly available online and it shouldn't be too difficult to follow it.

    We're very eager to help fight online crime but we need you to help us adhere to the law.

    Thanks for your cooperation.
    What does that have to do with the fact that you host illegal stuff and don´t comply as expected?
    if 40k is too much for you : either hire more ( competent) employees or don't sell extra servers until you can manage what you already have.

  28. #28
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    You really just like to complain, don't you? Just because you say it's pirated, doesn't mean a thing. You *must* follow Dutch regulations if you want someone to investigate your issue. Just saying it's illegal, doesn't make it illegal. You're not special, nobody is going to change the way they do things just for you.

  29. #29
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    You really just like to complain, don't you?
    Is that really necessary?

    Just because you say it's pirated, doesn't mean a thing.
    I am aware of that. Did you read the rest of this topic? I'm fairly certain I've covered this aspect already.
    You *must* follow Dutch regulations if you want someone to investigate your issue. Just saying it's illegal, doesn't make it illegal. You're not special, nobody is going to change the way they do things just for you.
    I never asked (or expected) Leaseweb to change or bend the rules for me.
    When I reply with what they asked for, and I do not hear back from them saying "Yes this will suffice" or "You did not provide enough info" - what else am I supposed to do?

    People please, read the topic before posting your two-cents, or it's not worth anything.

    For the record:
    Regarding my current and previous posts where I say I replied with what they asked for, I meant I replied to their auto-generated messages with my reply/copies of emails to their customer.

    Still, I have yet to hear back from them.
    The most action I've got from them was their post earlier in this thread and a PM asking me to change the topic title.

  30. #30
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    Hopefully when you are done, and have something acceptable to Leaseweb, you can make a template letter that others can benefit from.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by elvis1 View Post
    What does that have to do with the fact that you host illegal stuff and don´t comply as expected?
    if 40k is too much for you : either hire more ( competent) employees or don't sell extra servers until you can manage what you already have.
    Well said.
    A reply telling me whether or not my information is compliant to their Dutch law would be really helpful.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Techno View Post
    Hopefully when you are done, and have something acceptable to Leaseweb, you can make a template letter that others can benefit from.
    I will post it, once I figure out what they're expecting.
    Hard to know without communication!


    And with that, goodnight people. I am going out for the evening. Have a nice night everybody.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpl24 View Post
    Because it's pirated content.
    Then why don't you follow the laws that govern pirated content, which in this case is the "Dutch Notice and Takedown Code of Conduct"?

    You refused the follow the relevant law and then complain about Leasweb ignoring you?

  34. #34
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    Not once in this thread have you stated or shown that you have sent an official NTD. You sit here complaining and saying you've sent them what they need, when you did not. Until you actually follow Dutch regulations, you have no reason to complain. I don't care if you're a independent programmer or a giant movie studio. Until you actually send a NTD, you will be ignored.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by subigo View Post
    Not once in this thread have you stated or shown that you have sent an official NTD. You sit here complaining and saying you've sent them what they need, when you did not. Until you actually follow Dutch regulations, you have no reason to complain. I don't care if you're a independent programmer or a giant movie studio. Until you actually send a NTD, you will be ignored.
    Exactly right, plus if LeaseWeb were to act on anything other than a properly formatted NTD they could be held liable by their client for deleting content from a server without correct legal documentation.

    I wonder how gpl24 would react if he were to come back from his night out to find that his web site had been zapped because his host received some wacky email from a Dutch guy which, whilst not exactly in the format of a DMCA, was threatening enough for them to decide it was "probably" OK and "safe" to act on?

    gpl24, have a read: http://www.samentegencybercrime.nl/U...aak_Engels.pdf
    There's no such thing as an unmanaged server - It's actually self-managed. Worth remembering next time you're looking for someone to complain to.
    DATA VALUATION SERVICE: Your data's value is linked directly to your backup strategy. If YOU don't have your own backups then YOU value your data at ZERO. So why should anyone else care when you lose it?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpl24 View Post
    and a PM asking me to change the topic title.
    And so it should be. This is more about you throwing your teddy out of the pram because an overseas host won't roll over when you demand it, and wasting an hour posting here rather than doing a bit of Googling and finding out what you need to do to file your complaint in accordance with local laws. LeaseWeb are great people to deal with, and I'm sure will act promptly once you give them something legitimate to act upon, and which they can rely upon in their defence if their customer then joins in with the teddy throwing.

    I'm pretty sure you'd have got a more positive set of responses from members (and Dutch hosts) if you'd started a thread entitled "How do I handle whatever the equivalent is of a DMCA in the Netherlands", rather than the title you used which could be considered defamatory.
    There's no such thing as an unmanaged server - It's actually self-managed. Worth remembering next time you're looking for someone to complain to.
    DATA VALUATION SERVICE: Your data's value is linked directly to your backup strategy. If YOU don't have your own backups then YOU value your data at ZERO. So why should anyone else care when you lose it?

  37. #37
    Fighting Piracy = Good.

    Pissing off legitimate hosting providers because of inability to Google and follow the correct procedures = Douche bag.

    /thread.
    Freelance C# Programmer

    Note to all: Please remember that not all scenarios need HDD level availability.

  38. #38
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    Exactly right, plus if LeaseWeb were to act on anything other than a properly formatted NTD they could be held liable by their client for deleting content from a server without correct legal documentation.
    And I have yet to see a "properly formatted NTD" -- if such is commonplace, surely one of you smart-asses could have linked an example by now?

    /thread.

  39. #39
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    Stop crying, use Google.
    Sample: http://blog.seniorennet.be/abuse_en_copyright.php
    Sample: http://www.layar.com/legal/takedown-notice/

    I do agree that Leaseweb needs a similar detailed explanation on their site, but having a temper tantrum in the forum won't be the catalyst for making that happen.

    The biggest difference between a DMCA, and the Dutch takedown, is best found in this quote from the second site: "You are responsible for ensuring that your report is unambiguous, correct, complete and well substantiated."

    Too many USA hosts (or more often, reseller/kiddie "hosts"), knee-jerk remove/suspend sites when the DMCA file is a complete piece of garbage. I've seen complaints at WHT of hosts who take down sites based on semi-illiterate garbage scrawled in an email. If I were a host, I wouldn't even respond to such nonsense, and simply hit delete.
    || Need a good host?
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  40. #40
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    Ayyye... read the thread....

    The biggest difference between a DMCA, and the Dutch takedown, is best found in this quote from the second site: "You are responsible for ensuring that your report is unambiguous, correct, complete and well substantiated."
    With that, "read the thread".
    You/I are in limbo waiting for Leaseweb to determine their findings on the 'reports' I've supplied.
    Still, I await their response regarding my follow-ups.

    Too many USA hosts (or more often, reseller/kiddie "hosts"), knee-jerk remove/suspend sites when the DMCA file is a complete piece of garbage. I've seen complaints at WHT of hosts who take down sites based on semi-illiterate garbage scrawled in an email. If I were a host, I wouldn't even respond to such nonsense, and simply hit delete.
    Who's to say the Dutch version of a DMCA can't be sprawled in garbage? What makes it any different?
    Again, we're forgetting that the main parts of this dispute involve copyrighted content. You all are focusing way too much on the "DMCA" part of it. I only used a DMCA because it seems to work in the vast majority of instances.
    Outside of my experiences; my beliefs still stand: DMCA is the way to go, irregardless of where you/the content originate from.

    For the record, I am not in the USA, nor was my content in question generated in the USA. Nothing, other than the DMCA's I've sent, are American.

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