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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Yujin View Post
    Exactly! This is correct example. It's "estimate" not absolute.
    Hay....I don't understand why some cannot understand.
    Oh, I'm sure people here do understand that. It's arguably easy to given an estimate for planned downtime like upgrading equipment or routine maintenance, but try that for unexpected events like DDoS attacks or hardware failure.

    After all, not all hosts are created equal.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Zan View Post
    but try that for unexpected events like DDoS attacks or hardware failure.
    Really? go ahead give me some complex DDOS attack and complex hardware failure.
    Let's see if I cannot give an estimated time.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yujin View Post
    Really? go ahead give me some complex DDOS attack and complex hardware failure.
    Let's see if I cannot give an estimated time.
    LMAO, Wheres the DDoS daddy - Jeff/Black Lotus are you around

    I guess your now a DDoS expert and can predict the future Yujin?
    Last edited by Server Management; 06-13-2011 at 09:42 AM.
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    LMAO, Wheres the DDoS daddy - Jeff/Black Lotus are you around

    I guess your now a DDoS expert and can predict the future Yujin?
    See this is what I'm talking about...

    You started looking for an expert who can help you fix the issue.
    So, why estimated downtime is not possible then?

    If Jeff/Black Lotus aren't capable of solving the issue, do you think you will seek an alternative? Yes for sure, and everytime that you are doing this you desire for a deadline which you can relay to your client. So, what's complicated in giving estimated time?
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yujin View Post
    See this is what I'm talking about...

    You started looking for an expert who can help you fix the issue.
    So, why estimated downtime is not possible then?

    If Jeff/Black Lotus aren't capable of solving the issue, do you think you will seek an alternative? Yes for sure, and everytime that you are doing this you desire for a deadline which you can relay to your client. So, what's complicated in giving estimated time?
    Yujin, You asked for:

    go ahead give me some complex DDOS attack
    So ive alerted Jeff to come in and give you a complex DDoS Attack, So you can estimate the time, then Jeff will give his expert opinion on if its possible or not...
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    Yujin, You asked for:



    So ive alerted Jeff to come in and give you a complex DDoS Attack, So you can estimate the time, then Jeff will give his expert opinion on if its possible or not...

    cd/home whether Jeff chime in or not the logic of this topic is simple.

    You will find a solution to rectify any issue and based on that solution you can always provide your estimated time of solving that issue. Whether it takes 24 hours to 1-week etc... that remains an estimated time which you can give to your client as opposed to most of the poster here that they cannot give an estimated time.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yujin View Post
    cd/home whether Jeff chime in or not the logic of this topic is simple.

    You will find a solution to rectify any issue and based on that solution you can always provide your estimated time of solving that issue. Whether it takes 24 hours to 1-week etc... that remains an estimated time which you can give to your client as opposed to most of the poster here that they cannot give an estimated time.
    Estimates are sometimes simply not varible, As in my case once, I was given an ETA of 1 Hour for a cisco engineer to attend a certain DC in order to fix some issues on the router/switch...

    Their was a car crash on the M25 which he happened to of been driving down at the time, He was 2 Hours late because of this, It wasnt the engineers problem that a youth decided to go drink driving with his pals and end up killing themselfs by smashing into the central reservation...

    Maybe when you start running your own business Yujin you'll soon realise that dishing out aload of uncertain ESTIMATES isnt a good thing to do at the best of times!
    Last edited by Server Management; 06-13-2011 at 10:06 AM.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    Estimates are sometimes simply not varible, As in my case once, I was given an ETA of 1 Hour for a cisco engineer to attend a certain DC in order to fix some issues on the router/switch...

    Their was a car crash on the M25 which he happened to of been driving down at the time, He was 2 Hours late because of this, It wasnt the engineers problem that a youth decided to go drink driving with his pals and end up killing themselfs by smashing into the central reservation...
    Even though, if your engineer advised you 1 hour then tell your client 3 hour; will your client know that your engineer is coming within an hour, earlier or late?

    Again...

    I THINK, the very obvious reason WHY most of these provider refused to answer this question is for them NOT to have cancellation, as THEY are aware that their client will soon find an alternative solution to immediately restore their service; especially if they need very long hours to fix the issue.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yujin View Post
    Even though, if your engineer advised you 1 hour then tell your client 3 hour; will your client know that your engineer is coming within an hour, earlier or late?
    But then you would be lying to your clients as the engineer said an ETA of 1 hour, But half way on the journey their was a serious delay...

    I,d rather not LIE to my clientelle TBH...
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  10. #35
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    I THINK, the very obvious reason WHY most of these provider refused to answer this question is for them NOT to have cancellation, as THEY are aware that their client will soon find an alternative solution to immediately restore their service; especially if they need very long hours to fix the issue.
    I disagree. If you provide a good service to your clients, they will stick by you for a measly few hours of downtime in a worst case scenario. Now, if you have a few hours of downtime every other month then that's a problem but for the one off situations where by all accounts a respected provider is offline once in a blue moon for an hour or two, it would be foolish for anyone to leave. Clients who jump that quickly are probably the ones you don't want anyway.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    Clients who jump that quickly are probably the ones you don't want anyway.
    Exactly, Their most likely the ones who think by having Dual PSU, Dual Fiber Feeds, Dual Power - On Grid/Off Grid, etc Their CANNOT be any downtime.

    They dont realise that Raid Cards & Motherboards still have a single point of failure in most cases...
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    I disagree. If you provide a good service to your clients, they will stick by you for a measly few hours of downtime in a worst case scenario. Now, if you have a few hours of downtime every other month then that's a problem but for the one off situations where by all accounts a respected provider is offline once in a blue moon for an hour or two, it would be foolish for anyone to leave. Clients who jump that quickly are probably the ones you don't want anyway.
    Ok that's great but the question will just simply go back why these providers cannot give an estimated downtime. Factors, reasons, alibis...what else are the recipe?
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yujin View Post
    Ok that's great but the question will just simply go back why these providers cannot give an estimated downtime. Factors, reasons, alibis...what else are the recipe?
    What would you prefer:

    1. An ETA that isn't met at least once in the span of an outage?

    2. An ETA that is vague but reassuring that people are working as fast as possible.

    That E in ETA stands for ESTIMATED... not GUARANTEED.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    But then you would be lying to your clients as the engineer said an ETA of 1 hour, But half way on the journey their was a serious delay...

    I,d rather not LIE to my clientelle TBH...
    Ok sure no lying...your engineer told you 1-hour then relay the same message to your client, is that a problem? or are you still incapable of giving estimated downtime?
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yujin View Post
    Ok sure no lying...your engineer told you 1-hour then relay the same message to your client, is that a problem? or are you still incapable of giving estimated downtime?
    Giving an ETA to the clients of when an engineer will be present on site and looking at the issue on hand doesnt give an ETA of the overall downtime...

    This thread is going no where as theirs way to many factors invold in different cases.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    What would you prefer:

    1. An ETA that isn't met at least once in the span of an outage?

    2. An ETA that is vague but reassuring that people are working as fast as possible.

    That E in ETA stands for ESTIMATED... not GUARANTEED.

    You are absolutely messing up the idea of giving ETA and GUARANTEED solution.
    It is common sense...you do not give ETA if you do not know what to do. There is no guarantee for sometime that you cannot meet the deadline.

    You give ETA because you know that the airplane has to touchdown at 1pm otherwise its gasoline will run out.

    You give ETA because you know how to fix and where to find the solution for certain issue, otherwise you just simply do not care with your client.

    Your boss asked, hey Mr. Employee when can you finish your project...Oh Sir, I'm assuring you that I'm working on the issue. Hello! the question is very simple "when".
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    Giving an ETA to the clients of when an engineer will be present on site and looking at the issue on hand doesnt give an ETA of the overall downtime...

    This thread is going no where as theirs way to many factors invold in different cases.
    Why? don't you have tongue to ask detailed question to your technician?
    Mr. Engineer, what time will you arrive? How long can you fix the problem once you are here? Do you need extra time for testing?

    Seriously, cd/home - you are classic in giving alibis and tons of reasoning with your responses.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yujin View Post
    Ok sure no lying...your engineer told you 1-hour then relay the same message to your client, is that a problem? or are you still incapable of giving estimated downtime?
    What it seems you want is for a hosting provider to say "We'll be back in 2 hours" then have them fail so you can claim SLA.

    Cheap, Fast, or Good

    Pick 2
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crothers View Post
    What it seems you want is for a hosting provider to say "We'll be back in 2 hours" then have them fail so you can claim SLA.

    Cheap, Fast, or Good

    Pick 2
    Why? who created the SLA...customer or the provider?
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  20. #45
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    Ive been in many situations where a router has died.
    Its not responding to remote console so something is proper broken at the remote site.

    So,
    Currently. NO ETA!!! You dont know whats even broken.. Let alone how long to fix..

    You can say that an engineer is en-route .. ETA xx:xx however an ETR just isnt gonna happen.
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  21. #46
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    I fail to understand the point of your rant...

    I do not believe that you cannot answer this question straight as it is obvious...ESTIMATED DOWNTIME. If you are experienced and you are the one troubleshooting the issue then I'm pretty sure that you can answer this question.
    Even the best and most knowledgeable providers can run into trouble on what was assumed to be a simple fix. Sometimes sh*t just happens and that fifteen minute fix turns into a two hour fix. There isn't always a magic number for these things and giving a number will only infuriate clients if it's not met.

    I've been on both sides of the fence and it's never a win situation when the sh*t hits the fan. A server goes down, you figure it's going to take a few minutes to bring it back online when it decides to go into a FSCK that's going to take four hours... As long as there is communication from the provider that it's being worked on, that's honestly good enough for most people.

    Edit:

    I don't believe most providers avoid giving an ETA to be difficult, or because they fear clients will leave, or any other disingenuous reason... it's simply because they don't know how long it'll take to fix.
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    when it decides to go into a FSCK that's going to take four hours...
    Now we're talking some serious pain in the ass
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    I fail to understand the point of your rant...



    Even the best and most knowledgeable providers can run into trouble on what was assumed to be a simple fix. Sometimes sh*t just happens and that fifteen minute fix turns into a two hour fix. There isn't always a magic number for these things and giving a number will only infuriate clients if it's not met.

    I've been on both sides of the fence and it's never a win situation when the sh*t hits the fan. A server goes down, you figure it's going to take a few minutes to bring it back online when it decides to go into a FSCK that's going to take four hours... As long as there is communication from the provider that it's being worked on, that's honestly good enough for most people.
    Oh thank you for bringing this FSCK issue as I recall something.

    Ok here's what I do not understand on this issue. Provider will claim that they provide backup. Now, the HDD messed up and requires FSCK which they initially thought to be simple and short.

    As a SMART, RESPONSIBLE and CONCERN provider. Will you not offer your client the most recent backup to be migrated on another server and tell him/her some consequences (like lost of some db info, propagation etc...)

    Or will just continue playing Nintendo, PS2 or XBox and insist to your client that they have to wait 3-years (exaggerated) because you cannot stop the FSCK.

    Seriously, most of the provider that I noticed here choose the latter.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yujin View Post
    Oh thank you for bringing this FSCK issue as I recall something.

    Ok here's what I do not understand on this issue. Provider will claim that they provide backup. Now, the HDD messed up and requires FSCK which they initially thought to be simple and short.

    As a SMART, RESPONSIBLE and CONCERN provider. Will you not offer your client the most recent backup to be migrated on another server and tell him/her some consequences (like lost of some db info, propagation etc...)

    Or will just continue playing Nintendo, PS2 or XBox and insist to your client that they have to wait 3-years (exaggerated) because you cannot stop the FSCK.

    Seriously, most of the provider that I noticed here choose the latter.
    Yujin do you understand what FSCK is?

    Restoring backups can take just as long as running an FSCK if not longer...

    How many years of experience do you have in the server administration field Yujin?
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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cd/home View Post
    Yujin do you understand what FSCK is?

    Restoring backups can take just as long as running an FSCK if not longer...

    How many years of experience do you have in the server administration field Yujin?

    How long is my experience? Or I should be the one asking you this question?

    Obviously, you do not offer this option to your client as this is an inconvenience to your end and I bet you are the only one you will be migrating and restoring if you offer this.

    With your millennium experienced in this industry. How many websites reach 1GB on a regular shared environment and how long does it require to migrate and restore?

    So what do you prefer to understand and take chances, FSCK or MIGRATE?
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