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Thread: CDN market

  1. #1
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    CDN market

    Guys, what do you think will happen to the CDN market?
    It seems it's still mostly the enterprise scene that shows interest, I guess partly because of the perceived complexity of the product.

    It seems a few players (like Highwinds, VPS.NET (Level3), MaxCDN, etc) has managed to build a product that is somewhat appealing to the mass market, however, it's yet to hit big time. Why is that?

    Seen from my perspective CDN's SHOULD be for everyone, especially the mass-market.
    I mean, if you are Colgate or General Motors, you already have DC's world wide, and the IT dept, to build a redundant scalable setup.
    However, if you run a mom-and-pops SOHO kind of business, you'll typically only work out of a local DC, but you might have clients world wide. Though, those guys more or less never use a CDN.

    To me this should be the other way around!?

    It does seem that the apparent success of cloudflare might change that.

    Any of you guys (hosting providers) looking to move into the CDN market? If not, why?

    Thanks for your input!


    D
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
    OnApp.com + Cloud.net & CDN.net

  2. #2
    I would love to offer CDN to our client base. Should really build something on top of onapp that will allow us to do just that!

    We would participate for sure.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncorrupted-Michael View Post
    I would love to offer CDN to our client base. Should really build something on top of onapp that will allow us to do just that!

    We would participate for sure.
    thanks - ya, we just might do that. I was just wondering what everyone's take on the market is...
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
    OnApp.com + Cloud.net & CDN.net

  4. #4
    I think the market is too complex for a ton of individuals. If we could make it easier or integrate it into our cloud services it would be a great selling point. Our clients in particular (mommy bloggers) would love the benefits but do not want anything to do with the technical aspects. We manage everything for them but also don't have time for the additional overhead. A feature similar to cloudflare that would allow the clients to enable/disable the functionality would be amazing. I think you'd have to integrate DNS management into onapp to make it work tho.
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  5. #5
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    To build a proper CDN, it does take quite a bit of investment. You'll need very solid POPs across the globe coupled with a very solid DNS setup. The DNS setup itself should use anycast, and you may even want to use anycast for the actual file serving. Creating such a thing does take a decent amount of capital and expertise. Not everyone has both of these.

    Aflexi.net is one company that helps with this process. They seem to have a good product (though we have not used it yet). I would like to see others participate in this space too though (I don't see anything else that functions as a "CDN control panel" of sorts).

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by layer0 View Post
    Aflexi.net is one company that helps with this process. They seem to have a good product (though we have not used it yet). I would like to see others participate in this space too though (I don't see anything else that functions as a "CDN control panel" of sorts).
    I was just thinking of Aflexi for this. I have talked to CS over there a few times and the product does seem to be a good concept as you only pay for bandwidth used out of the datacenter that you use. Also it offers you the ability to host their software on your server and 'resell' bandwidth to other clients who wish to use your server as part of their CDN setup.

  7. #7
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    We are looking extensively at this right now. We feel proving CDN to the mass markets is key right now and a huge opportunity.

    I however do not think it is beneficial to actually build out your own CDN (own servers, etcs). I feel it is better to find a good partner that you can mark up, wrap with service/support and provide your own unique offering. We are working on this right now.
    Eleven2 Web Hosting - World-Wide Hosting, Done Right!
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  8. #8
    I don't totally understand the mechanics of aflexi but from what I think I understand is it integrates into cPanel.

    I wouldn't touch it to be honest. I think OnApp should add a DNS management panel, integrate an API, use an anycast DNS host like vps.net is using (I <3 dnsmadeeasy.com), and use that for DNS.

    For the actual delivery they should use nginx, varnish, and or a combination of the two.

    The onApp team is phenominal, from the first level support staff, to the management, to the crazy smart russian engineers and developers. They have their act togeether and will come up with a solution that is not only full featured, but also stable.

    Plus with the UK2 group behind them they already have their own infrastructure to build an amazing service off of. I imagine uk2 would much rather pay their sister companies for CDN than pay level3. It's all about the margins.
    --
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleven2 Hosting View Post
    We are looking extensively at this right now. We feel proving CDN to the mass markets is key right now and a huge opportunity.
    Totally agree - this is the time...
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleven2 Hosting View Post
    I however do not think it is beneficial to actually build out your own CDN (own servers, etcs).
    is the the technology or the actual servers (capex etc?). I know for UK2Group/VPS.NET (reselling L3) it was a mix of both.

    Your signature says:
    Server Locations in: Dallas, TX | Asheville, NC | London | Singapore
    I'd think that would be a good start for a 'internal' CDN project?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncorrupted-Michael View Post
    I think OnApp should add a DNS management panel, integrate an API, use an anycast DNS host like vps.net is using (I <3 dnsmadeeasy.com), and use that for DNS.

    For the actual delivery they should use nginx, varnish, and or a combination of the two.
    Easier said than done - and my guys really have enough to do as it is
    Thanks for the show of confidence though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Uncorrupted-Michael View Post
    The onApp team is phenominal, from the first level support staff, to the management, to the crazy smart russian engineers and developers. They have their act togeether and will come up with a solution that is not only full featured, but also stable.
    thanks again, really appreciate it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Uncorrupted-Michael View Post
    Plus with the UK2 group behind them they already have their own infrastructure to build an amazing service off of. I imagine uk2 would much rather pay their sister companies for CDN than pay level3. It's all about the margins.
    Yup, I hear you - though, the relationship between OnApp and UK2Group has changed somewhat:
    http://techcrunch.com/2011/04/20/ldc...lion-big-ones/

    Thanks everyone, great input!


    D
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
    OnApp.com + Cloud.net & CDN.net

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Uncorrupted-Michael View Post
    A feature similar to cloudflare that would allow the clients to enable/disable the functionality would be amazing.
    They have a cPanel plugin that allows you to do just this.
    My personal blog -- rubiverse.net

  11. #11
    OnApp should move to OpenStack

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    I'd think that would be a good start for a 'internal' CDN project?
    95th% costs for singapore and dallas would differ hilariously, wouldn't it?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    Totally agree - this is the time...

    is the the technology or the actual servers (capex etc?). I know for UK2Group/VPS.NET (reselling L3) it was a mix of both.

    Your signature says:

    I'd think that would be a good start for a 'internal' CDN project?
    I think the issue is for us is, I feel we would be a bit weak by just being in 3-4 locations, where the competition has 25+ POP's. Starting out in 20-25+ POP's seems like a logistical nightmare for anyone trying to have their own hardware or even lease servers, etc. Considering the low pricing and low risk with working with a partner such as Highwinds, L3, Akamai, etc, this seems like the logical route to go at this point.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by quantumphysics View Post
    95th% costs for singapore and dallas would differ hilariously, wouldn't it?
    Absolutely, pricing is insanely different. However, it seems like from working with folks like Highwinds, Akamai and L3, they 'weight' things quite drastically in the non-US countries?
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleven2 Hosting View Post
    I think the issue is for us is, I feel we would be a bit weak by just being in 3-4 locations, where the competition has 25+ POP's. Starting out in 20-25+ POP's seems like a logistical nightmare for anyone trying to have their own hardware or even lease servers, etc. Considering the low pricing and low risk with working with a partner such as Highwinds, L3, Akamai, etc, this seems like the logical route to go at this point.
    Find a middle ground... maybe start with 10 PoPs and work your way up?
    My personal blog -- rubiverse.net

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by flam316 View Post
    Find a middle ground... maybe start with 10 PoPs and work your way up?
    Still looking at a pretty significant startup costs - not even many large web hosting companies can take the loss needed to setup a proper CDN in 10 locations. You could probably get away with 3 locations in the USA, 4 in the EU, 2 in Asia, and 1 in Australia/South America.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by IGobyTerry View Post
    ...South America.
    Its cheaper to get IP-transit from the International space station to Earth than it is from South America to the US/EU

    NAP of Americas/Terremark has about 1-2 Tbps connectivity on the low side.
    Their data-centre in Sao Paulo, BR has 1.2 Gbps connectivity.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleven2 Hosting View Post
    We are looking extensively at this right now. We feel proving CDN to the mass markets is key right now and a huge opportunity.

    I however do not think it is beneficial to actually build out your own CDN (own servers, etcs). I feel it is better to find a good partner that you can mark up, wrap with service/support and provide your own unique offering. We are working on this right now.
    Bear with me, wait for another quarter, you probably will see something you really like.
    Last edited by wheimeng; 05-02-2011 at 07:39 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleven2 Hosting View Post
    Absolutely, pricing is insanely different. However, it seems like from working with folks like Highwinds, Akamai and L3, they 'weight' things quite drastically in the non-US countries?
    We looked at edgecast pricing in Asia, it was quite expensive.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheimeng View Post
    Bear with me, wait for another quarter, you probably will see something you really like.
    Quote Originally Posted by wheimeng View Post
    We looked at edgecast pricing in Asia, it was quite expensive.
    You realize that a true CDN wont rely on DNS resolution to determine closest POP to deliver content, right? Such CDN solutions wont work when used by clients on OpenDNS/GoogleDNS/Level3 DNS. There are quit a significant amount of web users who use these.

    Until there is a relatively easier mechanism to setup anycast IP announcement (yes, for file delivery. Anycast for DNS only is pointless) on edge POP locations, CDN service is going to remain scarce or enterprise only.

    Edit: Even if the DNS based CDNs do come up, I can guarantee that any CDN coming up with anycast file delivery will rob all business from the DNS based CDNs.

  21. #21
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    We have been looking at this for many months now and I agree Aflexi looks promising. The challenge for me is that the complexity of the product coupled with the lack of perceived need is slowing adoption.

    The customers we have talked to are only interested if they perceive some higher level of redundancy and if their market is countrywide (for Canada) or worldwide. If you have have local customers it seems it is "good enough" to use shared/vps/dedicated.

    DNS based routing is probably sufficient for mom and pops. It is the enterprise that needs more sophisticated tools.
    CloudNexus Technology Services
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteTech View Post
    You realize that a true CDN wont rely on DNS resolution to determine closest POP to deliver content, right? Such CDN solutions wont work when used by clients on OpenDNS/GoogleDNS/Level3 DNS. There are quit a significant amount of web users who use these.

    Until there is a relatively easier mechanism to setup anycast IP announcement (yes, for file delivery. Anycast for DNS only is pointless) on edge POP locations, CDN service is going to remain scarce or enterprise only.

    Edit: Even if the DNS based CDNs do come up, I can guarantee that any CDN coming up with anycast file delivery will rob all business from the DNS based CDNs.
    That's a very bold statement that anycast will overrule DNS CDNs. Anycast CDN 'can be' the fastest path, but it has many defects in scaling an operation that you've not considered. In any case if you don't follow DNS closely, look up EDNS Client Subnet proposal, which overcomes origin of requests that opendns, googledns, level3 masked from dns.

    Meanwhile, OpenDNS and GoogleDNS have given us their unicast IP in respective region that we have integrated into our system. So it can get as close as it can.

  23. #23
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    A lot of the small businesses don't need more than a couple of POPs. Ex: small oil & gas training shop in Houston needs a pop in Singapore for quick access to training material.

    We've built a very early (way too early to release) CDN "control panel" with simple fqdn provisioning API (RESTful) and an "admin" web UI using Varnish. Rent a virtual machine in Singapore and off you go. A presentable version will probably take a while.

    Regards
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteTech View Post
    Edit: Even if the DNS based CDNs do come up, I can guarantee that any CDN coming up with anycast file delivery will rob all business from the DNS based CDNs.
    Wow... Don't tell one of the market leaders (CacheFly) this or they might have to shut their doors today.
    http://www.nanog.org/meetings/nanog3...att.levine.pdf

    What sort of networking background do you have to make a statement like this? Have you done any tests to confirm statements like this?

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by BuffaloBill View Post
    Wow... Don't tell one of the market leaders (CacheFly) this or they might have to shut their doors today.
    http://www.nanog.org/meetings/nanog3...att.levine.pdf

    What sort of networking background do you have to make a statement like this? Have you done any tests to confirm statements like this?
    Same with CloudFlare. Try telling 5% of the internet (the websites that are powered by CloudFlare) that the service they are using doesn't work and is inefficient.
    My personal blog -- rubiverse.net

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