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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by dazmanultra View Post
    What do you think 'Cloud Sites' etc are?

    Out of the box load balancing and clustering are available right here right now.
    Loud balancing and clustering is not the same as what he was describing..that stuff was and has been available for years...hell, so has "cloud" technology to an extent.

  2. #27
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    It has been available for a long time... but not with a shared hosting interface or at shared hosting prices.

    You can definitely put load balancing and database clustering into the parallel computing pigeon hole though.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dazmanultra View Post
    It has been available for a long time... but not with a shared hosting interface or at shared hosting prices.

    You can definitely put load balancing and database clustering into the parallel computing pigeon hole though.
    Shared hosting prices? Have you looked at a shared hosting price lately? It's in the neighborhood of $5-$10 a month at most. Paying for compute, memory, and storage in clouds is astronomical in comparison. It's my contention that the only businesses who are buying cloud resources by the month are those that are truly clueless on how to run it themselves - or they only need the resources for a very short period of time. Setting up a standard server cluster ("cloud" of yesteryear) isn't brain science - and when you buy those boxes up front, you save crazy amounts of money in the long term.

    Sorry, but until "cloud" becomes pennies and nickels for huge quantities of things, it's not going to be taking over dedi or colo business for a long time.

    --Chris
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  4. #29
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    www.vmops.com ... not the cheapest thing but apparently fits the job you are looking for.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ObjectZone View Post
    Shared hosting prices? Have you looked at a shared hosting price lately? It's in the neighborhood of $5-$10 a month at most. Paying for compute, memory, and storage in clouds is astronomical in comparison. It's my contention that the only businesses who are buying cloud resources by the month are those that are truly clueless on how to run it themselves - or they only need the resources for a very short period of time. Setting up a standard server cluster ("cloud" of yesteryear) isn't brain science - and when you buy those boxes up front, you save crazy amounts of money in the long term.

    Sorry, but until "cloud" becomes pennies and nickels for huge quantities of things, it's not going to be taking over dedi or colo business for a long time.

    --Chris
    or if you really need those compute/memory and storage that you buy?
    Chances are the the $5/1000gb accounts are not really able to give you much the resources needed to run a professional website. The speed of your site would be dependant on how busy your neighbours on the server are, and the uptime of your service dependent on how stabile the hardware you reside on is...

    On most clouds you only pay for what you use, when you use it, all resources are dedicated to you and non-oversold, and fail over systems are in place to ensure you against hardware issues.


    D
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    or if you really need those compute/memory and storage that you buy?
    Chances are the the $5/1000gb accounts are not really able to give you much the resources needed to run a professional website. The speed of your site would be dependant on how busy your neighbours on the server are, and the uptime of your service dependent on how stabile the hardware you reside on is...
    I was only making a comparison to what the previous poster used - shared hosting. Anyone who's serious about running a dedicated website will immediately bypass shared hosting with so many VPS options available - you should know that better than anyone being a VPS reseller using SoftLayer's network. VPS eliminates the stability and unfairness suffered by other customers.

    Just about a week ago, I got a VPS node with 256MB RAM, 80GB of disk space, and access to two threads of an Intel Core i7. The disk space and RAM is dedicated, and the CPU is obviously shared. Cost monthly is $20. From SoftLayer, iSCSI disk space (what you pay for their cloud solution) for JUST the disk space is $60 a month - add on top of that pennies per cycle or whatever they're charging for and you're brochureware website will be costing $100+ a month very easily. That's one and a half 80GB hard drives per month that you could have just bought yourself at current market value. Heck, buy a RAID card and in two months you can upgrade to dual drive RAID. Colo the box for $50 a month. You're still less expensive per month and you've got your own compute, memory and bandwidth resources all inclusive.

    Cloud is crazy expensive when you compare to build your own. It has to be - you're really paying for smart people at the other end that know how to make it 100% redundant. If you already know how then you're setting up your own clusters and clouds. If you have absolutely nobody but perhaps an entry level programmer, then you have to pay the price. My case is arrested.

    On most clouds you only pay for what you use, when you use it, all resources are dedicated to you and non-oversold, and fail over systems are in place to ensure you against hardware issues.
    When the cost per GB or cost per cycles are so high, then it don't matter. 99% of businesses will say that they can't live with downtime, but when shown the price of putting it into an elastic compute environment, I bet that less than 5% of them will actually consider the cloud and instead opt for the possibility of a little downtime to save nearly half the cost per month.

    --Chris
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  7. #32
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    i agree with you to an extend:

    1) The pricing for most clouds out there is way way too complicated - simply not transparent for the avg. user...Heck, I've been in the industry for a decade, and I have no idea how many compute/cpu cycles...

    2) When you add the whole thing up the price might or might not be more expensive than what you would pay for a normal VPS or shared hosting account....

    Point is though - this is not a normal VPS or shared hosting account.

    Seen from a provider perspective the cost of running a cloud infrastructure is way higher as we are forced to 'undersell' and 'overprovide' - something we've found extremely challenging coming from a traditional shared/dedicated market. The business model has been turned up side down...

    On top of that you, as a user, get a totally different product, you get a lot more flexibility, scalability and a bunch of new features that you just wont find elsewhere. In terms of redundancy your system would stronger as well.


    D
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    (...)
    Seen from a provider perspective the cost of running a cloud infrastructure is way higher as we are forced to 'undersell' and 'overprovide' - something we've found extremely challenging coming from a traditional shared/dedicated market. The business model has been turned up side down...
    (...)
    I think it would be fair to explain a bit more here...

    Traditional hosting - both shared and VZbased VPS hosting (80% of the WHT market I guess) is based on overselling. Selling the same ram/cpu/storage/bandwidth many times, knowing that the avg. user's won't utilise it. So, it's like a 750 seats being sold on a 500 seat jumbo jet, knowing that 250 of the passengers would never turn up.

    Now, on cloud hosting this is totally different...
    • Resources are dedicated to clients, and not oversold - so, as a start, the seats in the jumbo jet would only be sold once...BUT
    • Clients on cloud systems expect to be able to scale up at any time, so we need hardware to be available for users at any given time. Clients only pay for the hardware they use, but we need to keep it idle there waiting anyway...We would have to pay for this hardware regardless though, the cost of hardware is the same if clients use it or not...I our case we keep 20-30% idle at any given time for scaling...AND
    • Redundancy - yeah, most cloud systems are build in a way so if a physical server has hardware issues the cloud servers would just boot on another server...and since storage is on centralized SAN's, downtime would be minimal - typically a minute or less. But that means we have to have idle servers sitting there waiting for servers to fail over to. In our case we keep 20% idle servers ready at any given time. Servers that we pay for, keep rackspace ready for and that we might even pay powercost for if they are partially utilised


    So -Now we are only packing 2-300 passangers in our 500 person jumbo jet...You see why this has to cost more?


    D
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    I think it would be fair to explain a bit more here...
    I don't think the jumbo jet analogy works here. The false assumption is that once the cloud is up and running (jet flying in mid-air) you can't add more blades to scale (seats). I guess one can oversell in the cloud but the resource usage has to be monitored closely. Not all cloud customers use up their allotted resources.

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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNIXy View Post
    I don't think the jumbo jet analogy works here. The false assumption is that once the cloud is up and running (jet flying in mid-air) you can't add more blades to scale (seats). I guess one can oversell in the cloud but the resource usage has to be monitored closely. Not all cloud customers use up their allotted resources.

    Regards
    sure you can oversell anything - but given that you are already 'forced' to undersell by 30-40%, even 10-20% overselling would not change the business case a lot.

    Some clouds use auto-scaling-features ensuring that clients servers are automatically allocated the resources needed, other systems allow clients to schedule bursts of resources. All working against the overselling mechanisms.

    Like, one of our clients sends out newsletters every thursday, so he knows his site will be busier friday. He has asked our system to add more CPU/RAM to his server every friday, and take it away saturday...And we need to leave the room for that sort of thing 24/7...in a traditional system, be it shared or dedicated, the clients would be expected to pay for this 24/7 - even though he only needs it one day a week. With us he only pays for that one day usage... It's all turned around

    Last week we had a large encoding client signing up out of the blue turning on 250 nodes...He might decide to take those nodes down any time when his encoding is done - from a business perspective it is very hard to project that sort of behaviour...

    Additionally, most cloud system are XEN based, and while overselling is doable - it is not a build in 'given' like it is on your parallels container system powering 75% of the WHT VPS offerings.

    So, yes, you might be able to oversell on the cloud as well, but we - and most other cloud providers that I know of - have chosen not to...who knows, that might change in the future though.


    D
    Ditlev Bredahl. CEO,
    OnApp.com + Cloud.net & CDN.net

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    So, yes, you might be able to oversell on the cloud as well, but we - and most other cloud providers that I know of - have chosen not to...who knows, that might change in the future though.
    A small correction. We don't oversell . Hence the slightly more expensive plans. I know shocker!

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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by eming View Post
    .who knows, that might change in the future though.


    D

    I certainly hope not. I'm a real fan of the Xen model with no oversubscription being allowed. The minimum guarantees and the ability to use more resources than you've technically paid for tends to lead to unpredictability of server performance, and confusion for the customer.
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  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by RackPoint-Morgan View Post
    I think the better question would be:

    What is your definition of a cloud? What are you trying to achieve?
    I intend to use the cloud to sell virtual server.

    http://winzure.com/what-is-cloud-computing-used-for

    Trying to figure out how the hardware should be set up first. Features can come later.

  14. #39
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    A cloud is one of two things:

    1) A development platform that reduces IT management costs or
    2) An overpriced, overhyped, VDS
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collabora View Post
    A cloud is one of two things:

    1) A development platform that reduces IT management costs or
    2) An overpriced, overhyped, VDS
    You're wrong. An IaaS 'cloud' can be a fancy VPS, but that's just one specific type of cloud.
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  16. #41
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    Then you agree by omisison. If its not (2) , then its (1)
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by dazmanultra View Post
    You're wrong. An IaaS 'cloud' can be a fancy VPS, but that's just one specific type of cloud.
    I'm sorry but all clouds are made up of some sort of vps or another.
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  18. #43
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    I thought you just do:

    Code:
    yum install cloud

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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudstr View Post
    I'm sorry but all clouds are made up of some sort of vps or another.
    No apology is necessary, but again, a cloud service for instance - such as Gmail or Google Apps needn't run on virtualized instances. There's no requirement, anywhere, that says "cloud" == "vps".

    Infrastructure as a Service is just one part of the "cloud" hosting movement. You should also consider Platform as a Service, as well as Software as a Service when thinking about what it is (or what it can be).
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  20. #45
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    To the end user who is subscribing to a hosting plan which happens to be in a cloud, all that is irrelevant. He does not care, nor can he determine if his X mb/s of bandwidth or Y% of cpu is coming from a cloud, a vps, or a dedicated server. As a matter of fact, if the source is a cloud, then its probably more expensive and in that case customer may be interested.

    The cloud's advantage is almost exclusively to the IT manager. This advantage is its purpose for existing. Its a method for managing and deploying an infrastructure, something the end user has no involvement
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by dazmanultra View Post
    No apology is necessary, but again, a cloud service for instance - such as Gmail or Google Apps needn't run on virtualized instances. There's no requirement, anywhere, that says "cloud" == "vps".

    Infrastructure as a Service is just one part of the "cloud" hosting movement. You should also consider Platform as a Service, as well as Software as a Service when thinking about what it is (or what it can be).

    Quick. what does a "cloud" run on again? Xen? Vmware? made up of what? lots of "virtualized" "private" "servers"

    I fail to see the fluffy white things floating around that spit out numbers at irate speeds.

    Lets face the fact, the term cloud is just a fancy "enterprise" word for "VPS".. Why? a "VPS" sounds much to cheap to be considared a "cloud"
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  22. #47
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    The cloud model is a "VPS" that you can rent in hour intervals without going through any retarded human paperwork.

    What the cloud really is about: large corporations trying to sell and overselling excess computation and storage capacity at a inflated valuations. 10 cents an hour looks cheap, but it is really 72 dollars a month, and you only get 1.0Ghz-1.2Ghz of 2007 Opteron core according to AWS. So a dual socket Nehalem-EP can virtualize about 16 of those slices and get a rental fee of over $1000 a month. Compared to Dedicated Server vendors, who are lucky enough to get $100 for a Core2Quad a month. Margin is nearly 5-6 times higher when you tag on "cloud" buzzword.

    What the dedicated hosting people can do is allow dynamic rental of their dedicated servers at hourly ratios.(It takes some custom software to do this) and they can be 4x more cost effective than AWS right now. Everything else is just a matter of scale and greed.

  23. #48
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmrxN3GWHpM

    At 45 minutes into it. LMAO.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by tshen83 View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmrxN3GWHpM

    At 45 minutes into it. LMAO.
    Excellent!

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