I was wondering if there were any penilities for web hosts that download your content onto their personal computers and use the scripts?

Here is what happened to me....

I was paying a guy to host a website for me that ran from a cgi script that has about 15 files. He emailed me and asked what I would sell a copy of it for and I told him $100. He agreeded and said he would wait until after the holidays which was fine with me. About 3 days after these emails, I received an admin email from the program with an odd URL...so I researched it and it was HIM (the host). I looked at the URL that he had uploaded it to and the graphics/logo was MINE from the site he was hosting. I emailed him to confront him and he did not deny it at all. He just said sorry and that he was board.

Is this just a moral issue or a legal issue?

:confused: more information needed

such as???

Originally posted by kickmybutt
Is this just a moral issue or a legal issue?
At the least it's a host to avoid. Who was it?

If I understand you correctly:

* person was hosting a web site for you
* this website included a CGI script
* person inquired about the cost of the CGI script
* you quoted price
* person said that they would purchase it after the holidays

All this time, the person has access to the script, because he hosts the site for you.

* you receive admin email which is generated by this script
* this installation of this script was installed on your host's hard drive

Is this series of steps / facts correct?

I am not a lawyer. I cannot judge if you have any legal case here, or not. It sounds as if he was playing around with a copy of the program before purchasing it - similar to reading a magazine before you buy it, or taking a car for a test drive. He does seem bit unprofessional if not out-and-out rude, not shooting you an email to ask if he could just play around with the script before purchasing it if he had some downtime; but taking your business elsewhere solely based on this incident might be overreacting. It's difficult to say, though, since I was not in the situation; and I don't know if my understanding of the situation is correct.

Well for starters:

Did you write the script yourself?
If you did write it then you own the copyright, did you register it?
If you did register it (cost $30.00 US) and you live in the US you can now file a law suit. The cost is about $500.00 if you don't use an attorney about 10 times that if you do.
If you didnt register it you cannot file a lawsuit in the US.
If you didn't register it the only very slim chance you have is to file a Copyright Infringement Notification with his ISP (Since he is the Host). Don't hold your breath on that one though.

Unfortunately he wins by atrition. Unless he's making money from it and you can get a decent award, its usually never worth court. Unless of course you have money to throw away.....

I woudl say it's both a moral & legal issue. That is, presuming you wrote the script or paid for it.

Moral
Because of laziness or stupidity, they got caught using the script when the had no right to. We know this because "you" got an eMail from the script.

Obviously this is not someone a person would want to host with. All Hosters have a moral responsibilty to "not pry" into Client files unless there is a need or requried by law.


Legal (just my opinion you understand)
Taking Client files for their own use is theft -- pure and simple. As to whether litigation should be invoked, probably not worth it.


We still don't know if the $100 was paid and I would wait/force to get that ASAP since they now have the script and are using it -- and make sure to extra if they use your images -- then switch Hosters ASAP.

Well, it's a fairly easy issue here. Either he should pay you, or he should not use your code. I'd also reconsider whether to keep hosting with him too.

living_media.........YES, thats it in a nutshell. Well, the guy finally paid me the money. Then, he had the nerve to ask me for support!

SO...I told him YES!

I told him to delete the "stolen" files from his computer and I would email him the newly configured files. He agreed and I sent him the files. The thing is, it was a cgi script, and as you all know, any stray marks will give an internal error. SO...since he stole it from me, I sent him a bad file. When he re-uploaded it, it would not work! In the mean time, I deleted the files from my account on his server. When the files would not work for him he emailed me to help him again. Thats when I asked how it felt to have it broken off in the butt.

I made him cuss me for 2 days then sent him the good files, since he did pay for them.

Moral of the story:
Don't be mean to your clients, they don't have to act professional :D

so what was done, was in fact he did download the scripts likely to play around with them, and then paid you the money, and you turn around and give him bad code? sounds to me like he was fully honest in terms of the agreement, but you turned around and made matters worse by ripping him off and then giving him bad code.

...But did you write the script?

Originally posted by kickmybutt
living_media.........YES, thats it in a nutshell. Well, the guy finally paid me the money. Then, he had the nerve to ask me for support!

SO...I told him YES!

I told him to delete the "stolen" files from his computer and I would email him the newly configured files. He agreed and I sent him the files. The thing is, it was a cgi script, and as you all know, any stray marks will give an internal error. SO...since he stole it from me, I sent him a bad file. When he re-uploaded it, it would not work! In the mean time, I deleted the files from my account on his server. When the files would not work for him he emailed me to help him again. Thats when I asked how it felt to have it broken off in the butt.

I made him cuss me for 2 days then sent him the good files, since he did pay for them.

See now, I might have done things a bit differently. I would have told him why I was upset, and then told him that the script came with one month's worth of support. Any support after that could, of course, be purchased in six-month chunks for an additional $50.

It never pays to be truculent with potential clients. You don't have to slather them with honey, but you shouldn't play tricks on them either; even if they pull things like this person did. (I'm assuming that when he purchased it he did not inquire about support.) I'd also move my files elsewhere, quietly but quickly.

Think about how you would react in a similar situation, if a developer had done something like this to you and you had access to this person's files and control over their account space. Mightn't you react by, say, giving the script away to as many people as you could? Or by throttling this person's bandwidth viciously? Or having more "server maintenance issues" or "mistaken billing issues"? He's in a position to do you a bit of damage, and you inadvertently handed him more ammunition. Careful, careful...

Originally posted by AlaskanWolf
so what was done, was in fact he did download the scripts likely to play around with them, and then paid you the money, and you turn around and give him bad code? sounds to me like he was fully honest in terms of the agreement, but you turned around and made matters worse by ripping him off and then giving him bad code.

Actually, AlaskanWolf, I think that the person dipped into kick's account space and downloaded the script, using access that he (as the host) had that the general public did not. (At least I think that's what happened - I could be wrong.) If that's indeed how the host got the script, I call that overstepping his bounds.

I don't think that what kick did in retaliation was very wise, either, as he may have bought himself more trouble or cut off potential future revenue source. He reacted not as well as he could in not keeping his contacts with the person on a professional level.

EDIT: kick, you never did answer Jim_UK's question: what is the name of the host? This sounds like someone that other people should know to avoid. flitcher asked: did you write the script? Your tone seems to indicate that you did, but I'm not sure. I think I forgot to ask that.

ic

Yes, I wrote the script.

As far as p;issing him off......I could care less. Hosting companies are a dime a dozen. Do you really think I would stay with him after this type of incident??? Heck NO!

Even if he had full intentions paying, that wasnt the deal! He was going to wait until after the holidays to pay...AND receive!


living_media

It sounds as if he was playing around with a copy of the program before purchasing it - similar to reading a magazine before you buy it, or taking a car for a test drive.

Yea! Sure! What would happen if you went to the car dealership at midnight to take the car for a "TEST DRIVE"??? You will be in jail.

not really hehe, happened a few times up here in alaska, the guy went for a test drive, and happened....never brought the truck back to the dealership....then they changed the way they do test drives :)

he never did go to jail for it

OK....note to self.....
Never get hosting from AlaskanWolf.......

There seems to be two sorts of hosts....frauds and freaks!

:puke:

no name calling or rudeness is called for...you asked a question, i answered...... :eek:

its true, this guy went and test drove a brand new truck from Nye Frontier Ford and a few days later the cops finally found the truck @ his house

the judge in the case threw it out because they said the dealership gave permission to the guy to test drive it and they didnt instruct him to return it.....therefore it wasnt actually theft :P

This brings up a very good point though...as the owner of the servers that a site is hosted on, is it legal for the host to view or download for viewing, files that are stored in customers accts?

As a host, are you NOT responsible for the contents of a site under the DMCA? I know what this guy did was probably just stupidity and he was just anxious to start mucking with the script....nothing in the message even gives me the impression that this guy was trying to rip off the owner of the script, if he had, he wouldn't have probably contacted him in the first place now would he.

I think that, yes, the owner of the script had a right to be slighty upset, the host should have at least asked if he could DL it to play with on his local machine, either to make sure he wanted it or just to figure it out, but sending him bogus code was wrong and a bad way to conduct business as well. Both parties are guilty of bad judgement in this case.

hrm

Artie, I think you should re-read my post on the first page. ;)

kickmybutt, seems you gave in to the dark side of human nature and coloured yourself with the same brush as your hoster. Ahh, the joy/sorrow of being human. :D

The cost is about $500.00 if you don't use an attorney about 10 times that if you do.

Where did that number come from? There's not that much damage done, and unless he's seeking a lot of money, small claims court would be a fine place to argue with his host. I think that there is only a $30 filing fee for small claims court.

James

I agree with zRedDice, $500 is off-base

Originally posted by ArtieFishill
This brings up a very good point though...as the owner of the servers that a site is hosted on, is it legal for the host to view or download for viewing, files that are stored in customers accts?


You can monitor stuff, yes, but to download and install the program, regardless of how he got it, is IP theft. No different that downloading warez off the internet and using them. By the OP's description, the host was not monitoring the software (such as checking for warez). He had intention to buy it, he ?knew? the OP wrote it, and he took it early. It's theft.


As a host, are you NOT responsible for the contents of a site under the DMCA? I know what this guy did was probably just stupidity and he was just anxious to start mucking with the script....nothing in the message even gives me the impression that this guy was trying to rip off the owner of the script, if he had, he wouldn't have probably contacted him in the first place now would he.


Alot of this has to take *intent* into consideration. He was going to buy it, he took it without buying it (before buying it) and he knew it was wrong to. And the fact that he inquired before downloading doesn't mean anything... If I contact Microsoft about Windows XP, how much does it cost, yada yada... then download a warez copy, does that make it 'ok' ?


I think that, yes, the owner of the script had a right to be slighty upset, the host should have at least asked if he could DL it to play with on his local machine, either to make sure he wanted it or just to figure it out, but sending him bogus code was wrong and a bad way to conduct business as well. Both parties are guilty of bad judgement in this case.

I agree that both are wrong for what they did, but payback's a mother... Further, the host appears to be one of those kiddie hosts... "I was bored.."

Should post the name...

The $500.00 figure came from my own personal experience and are all the costs involved including lost wages for the day in Court. It certainly doesn't pay to take anyone to Small Claims Court. In my State in the US you have a $1500.00 ceiling and a $65.00 filing fee plus Court Costs.

Nine times out of ten you only get 50% of what you are suing for in small claims court. Take that along with the entire day you will likely be in Court and it's not worth it. Not unless your time is so cheap that you can afford 8 hours or so to throw after a debt that will be compromised in Court anyway.

Doesn't take long to add up to $500.00