Well, you may all be praising WeinBar, but so far all it has turned out to be is a bunch of empty promises, shall i start with my experience with them

Day1, Shortly after the signup process there was downtime, one of their largest yet, i was annoyed, but people in here assured me there would not be a problem and it doesnt happen often

End Of Day 1: I contact WeinBar and pleasently ask for an early Estimate Time of Arrival on the server, not expecting it ready in the 12 hours it has been since signup, he says the following, and late me quote this :

"We will try to get it up today for you"
"DOn't worry, it will be up quicker than you can spit!"

I was delighted, and throught, what a great service, so i waited up for the e-mail (sad wasnt i, lol)

It never arrived, so i went to bed

Day 2: I woke up and Went the entire day without response via e-mail, not even a sorry, i cant complete that promise, NOTHING, as if WeinBar had disappreared.

Day 2 1/2: I got home and sent an ICQ saking for an ETA, then i sent another, then finally another, guess what, hes got my money and ran i thought, im not getting anything back, so a friend telephoned him, to check the situation, he said "the Routers are just updating the IP addresses and it will be up shortly" (is this right or a lie?)

I waited, no e-mail, 1 hour, 2 hours, i have now woken up this morning to find that 7 hours after he said "SHORTLY" it is still not ready.

I even quote here one of his responses to me:

"Well, we like to put up front what is going to happen, not empty promises."

Well Michael, you have made me 3 promises so far, and i would really appreciate an explanation (or are you blanking me?)

Its approaching 48 hours now, and i also quote an ICQ he sent me:

"It will be set up within 24-48 hours."

please Michael, dont BS me, i really dont appreciate it, if it is going to take 48 hours to setup, then tell me 48 hours for god sake, id not have been annoyed.

You have blatantly lied to me on several occasions, and as a customer, or as you say

"We try to. If it is not me, it is my partner. We like to have the one on one approach. We don't want you to feel like you are in a huge mega corporation where all you are is a number."

heh, you WeinBar are doing a very good job at this mega corp position!

Darn.... I surely hope your situation will be resolved asap.

cheers,
:beer:

yeah, so do I.
I mean, i would have been happy if Michael had of said

"OK, its 48 hours, thats how long its going to take"

but no, he has led me on, telling me it will be done soon for the last 24 hours, i thought we had a good understanding obviously we dont seem to at the moment.

Come on guys, be fair. Weinbar's network was down for a number of hours due to no fault of their own. I imagine that they're a bit busy right now trying to work out what happened and how they can make sure it doesn't happen again. Probably 24-48 hours is how long it normally takes them to bring a new server online but their recent disaster intervened.

If there was suddenly a major earthquake near to their NOC, you wouldn't be here complaining that they were a few hours late, would you? A network going down for hours with no advance warning should be treated the same way.

Although Its not the downtime im unhappy about, or the time it is taking to setup, it is the empty promises, if you had the downtime they experienced, you would probably come back and say "im sorry, your server setup might be delayed", not :

"Its Nearly Setup our routers are updating it should be ready in a moment."

then get nothing, IF he had have said, sorry it is going to be an extra day due to technical problems, id have been SOO happy, i wouldnt care about anything ive mentioned, i just dont like being lied to.

Agreed. Too many companies fob their customers off with anything to get you off their backs once they've got your money. I absolutely hate having to fight companies with emails and prompts just to get the service I'm paying for. And it happens all too often for my liking.

I'm sure you'll keep us posted with how your Weinbar experiences pan out. I for one will be interested.

indeed, i have posted this in another forum on webhostingtalk and i think the same applies here:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What can i say, i seem to be noticing a pattern here, i think its called "business".

I would say companies spend far too long "getting sales" and not enough time "keeping customers"

Everyone makes the same mistake, and when you have a forum such as this then the weak get weeded out from the strong.

Sombody will spend 100% of their time getting a sale, then the second they get the sale and you have handed over your credit card, they will spend little more than 20% of their time keeping you as a customer.

Its a cruel world out there...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I also know DISSING a company you are trying to get something out of is bad, i know from my own experiences as a network admin, you dont insult the admin or your will loose data, lol.
The same applies here, dont insult the ISP or they will take even longer, lol - maybe i have brought this on myself for my comments 2 days ago, but i sincerely hope not.

Had you been a little patient, you would understand the situation. First, ICQ is giving us all headaches here and we are not using it at the moment, so we do not have access to it right now.

Second, we are having trouble securing the IP addresses we gave you. From Aperian, we are given IP addresses and thus have to wait until the routers update in order for them to become live. It is a situation that we are continually fighting to change, but so far we are still doing it this way.

We have your server ready, and waiting to be turned on. Although I said that setup is normally 24-48 hours, we would try to get your box going live sooner. And yes, I said
"sooner than you could spit". These are delays that I face as well and all I can do is try and make it right for you. I fully expected this to resolve itself, and a simple email from you on your end or a telephone call inquiring about it would have given you a heads up. We don't email the information to our customers until the box is fully set up and ready to go. I didn't think it necessary to email you a status report on the server because we were still within our timeframe of getting the server up for you. I suppose we may have been wrong here...but I am not sure.

We usually compensate our customers if there is a delay in the 48 hours we quote to get the system up and running. In your case, even though I had already upgraded your memory to 128MB, we upgraded it to 256 at no charge. I am now a little upset that I did so seeing as you decided to vent your frustrations in an open forum when there was no breach of contract on our part.

Your server will be live as soon as the IP situation is taken care of.

Or, if you are not happy with the way we have treated you so far, please let me know and we can make other arrangements.

Just because we said we would do our best and try and get it up sooner than promised does not make that a guarantee that it will be done.

Firstly let me thank you for your prompt reply again to this forum, I may be wrong, but I usually find posting in a forum where an ISP frequents results in continued knowledge to others about a company and a far quicker response on the ISP's behalf as it is in their interest to resolve the issue.

The server could take a month to set up for all I care, it would be nice to have it up sooner rather than later, but WeinBar, do you not think a simple reply to the telephone call and ICQ (sorry if you did not receive this) via e-mail would have been appropriate? its just you say it should be up today, then, it should be up in the morning, then it should be up in a moment, just say it straight, "We Are Experiencing Problems please bear with us"

I admit upgrading the memory to 256MB is the kindest gesture any ISP has ever offered me, and the people on this board now know that you are more sincere for it and that you as an ISP do everything in your power to please customers (unlike others I have experienced)

I can also let you know that i am more than happy with you as an ISP, I have the powerful network, one to one support and a wonderful server to look forward to.

Once again, I am not rushing you, I just wish you would tell me if you are having problems and not leave me sitting here to make my own conclusions.

Why do I get the feeling that dedicated server order forms should include radio buttons marked "I'm a busy guy, just send me an email when the server's ready" and "I'm antsy, please send me progress reports every five minutes so that I know exactly what is going on at every moment"?

xtstrike's comments about wanting to "know what is going on" certainly are relevant to some people, but I can equally see that many people would just be irritated by constant progress reports.

lol thats not quite the situation.
I dont want progress reports, I wanted him to contact me ONCE after he told me:

"It Will Be Up In A Moment"

to say:

"Im Sorry We Are Experiencing Difficulties, the difficulties are xxxxxxxxxxxxx, please bear with us"

this is what this is about, instead of me sitting here, clicking refresh on my browser every 30 mins.

Originally posted by xtstrike
do you not think a simple reply to the telephone call and ICQ (sorry if you did not receive this) via e-mail would have been appropriate? its just you say it should be up today, then, it should be up in the morning, then it should be up in a moment, just say it straight, "We Are Experiencing Problems please bear with us"


Understandable. But we have done everything right, as far as our power goes. We have done everything we could to have it ready for you, but because we were waiting for the routers to update, that was the best answer we could have given you. Unfortunately, there was a problem on Aperian's end in getting those IPs live, so we are in the same boat as you. And you are not the only one, either. We have had to make arrangements to other customers as well.

As far as saying it straight, we did. We fully expected everything to go smoothly, but we were not aware of any problems until the IP addresses did not come live. To this moment we are working on it.

In the scheme of things, this is a slight bump in the road. These things happen, although I wish they didn't (look at what happens!).

As stated, sending out progress reports is just not a practical thing to do. If you contact us, we will let you know what is happening, but we just don't do it every 5 minutes. We do send out welcome kits as soon as we are confident the server is ready for use. Until then, assume that everything is being done to ensure that your server will be up and running correctly and as you requested it.

I suppose I am seeing your side of things now, that it is not your systems as I was originally assuming but it is Another company experiencing the problems, then you are indeed in the same situation.

Well, I now know you are working on the issue and am once again a happy customer, I will await patiently the delivery of my Welcome Pack :)

I experienced the same problam as xstricke did with WeinBar.
They promised to have the server up online in 24-48 hrs.
it's already over 48 hrs now, I still didn't received any email from them about the server status. and there is not repsonse on icq as well. (they used to give replay on icq/email within few seconds for sales inqury before i signuped.) :angry:

heh heh

hope weinbar doesnt continuously have problems
:stickout

Please people. All your servers are ready and just waiting for the IP addresses to become live (as we get them from Aperian). All servers are powered up and ready to go. They will be online by tonight. If not, then we will compensate.

what ya gonna do, give him more ram?

what if he doesn't get his server for a week (this could be realistic, and it might not be realistic)
hardware he can't use or see won't satisfy him :)

Im guessing this isnt particularly the best of times for WeinBar, it goes to say:

"If It Doesn't Rain It Pours"

At least i know im not alone in this situation, ive been advised that my situation is as follows:

question: "isp says, waiting for the routers to update"
translation: "our router tech is on vacation"

some guy on IRC said it was the cause, I found it pretty funny :-)

Originally posted by node9
what ya gonna do, give him more ram?


Stop badgering Michael. It is quite clear that he's done all that he can at this point and is just waiting for Aperian to wake up.

well, eventually get a little reply from WeinBar on this forum. Let's wait for another few hours.

I believe Mich will resolve this problem asap, as much as he can. So, give him some more time, will you? :)

cheers,
:beer:

stay sane, Michael,

you're doing a good job! :)

Originally posted by node9
what ya gonna do, give him more ram?

what if he doesn't get his server for a week (this could be realistic, and it might not be realistic)
hardware he can't use or see won't satisfy him :)

I believe the compensation that you are referring to is for a waiving of the setup fees. But I guess you have too many sarcastic remarks to think of before you post on something that you are not a party to.

I am not one to get harsh, and I apologize if I am coming across that way, but I am waiting as well. I have machines that are sitting on a network and we are waiting on Aperian to give the IPs to the router. I am not making excuses, just clarifying the situation.

Michael - you have the patience of a saint. Good thing I'm not a webhost. I'd have a policy that if someone made incessant complaints on a public board when they were already aware that I was doing all I could and waiting on my own provider that I'd have to send them to another hosting company. Preferably my most hated competitor. I imagine that at some point a client makes so many demands of your support staff that they become a liability.

Originally posted by WeinBar


... Unfortunately, there was a problem on Aperian's end in getting those IPs live ...


As stated, sending out progress reports is just not a practical thing to do. ... Until then, assume that everything is being done to ensure that your server will be up and running correctly and as you requested it.


These types of threads, showing how a provider handles a situation when things get rough uncovers some of their REAL basic philosophies of customer service. This one has certainly enlightened me on some of weinbar's philosophies.


First evidence of poor customer service:
As a customer, I NEVER want to hear the person I am paying try to blame the problem on someone else or one of their service providers. Basically - I don't care. The buck stops with the person I am paying. It's his/her job to make sure suppliers are doing their job.

Second evidence of poor customer service.
Until a customer has had enough time to become confident in the performance of provider, especially a service provider, they usually don't assume that everything is going well, in fact they sometimes assume the worst. And besides, when you AssUMe, it makes an Ass of U and Me.

Originally posted by fox

As a customer, I NEVER want to hear the person I am paying try to blame the problem on someone else or one of their service providers.

Listen, I am at my wits end here. I never blamed anything on my upstream provider. I am explaining the situation. I do take full responsibility, that is why I am doing all I can do?

What do you propose? I mean, if this was your company, what would you do? Would you prefer that I lie to my customers? I don't do that. I am up front. If there is a situation that I am waiting on, I tell you what is going on. I don't sit back and say it's not my fault.

----

As an aside. I am working with Aperian to get this problem resolved. They are now telling me that due to the outage that we had, we may have a problem updating the router until the equipment is fully repaired. This is obviously not acceptable to me, nor should it be to you.

I am trying my best to keep everyone updated. What more do you expect me to do?

just peachy @ the router situation
:mad:

before this thread ends up thrown for content, let's try to avoid egging others on.. is that okay?

(yes node9, i am specifically mentioning you here.. i mean no offence, but your comments serve no purpose in alleviating this situation)

Originally posted by fox



These types of threads, showing how a provider handles a situation when things get rough uncovers some of their REAL basic philosophies of customer service. This one has certainly enlightened me on some of weinbar's philosophies.


First evidence of poor customer service:
As a customer, I NEVER want to hear the person I am paying try to blame the problem on someone else or one of their service providers. Basically - I don't care. The buck stops with the person I am paying. It's his/her job to make sure suppliers are doing their job.

Second evidence of poor customer service.
Until a customer has had enough time to become confident in the performance of provider, especially a service provider, they usually don't assume that everything is going well, in fact they sometimes assume the worst. And besides, when you AssUMe, it makes an Ass of U and Me.

I actually got the impression that it was basically "There are problems out of our control, in ..this.. manner. We are aware and agree this is not acceptable, so what can we do for you to make you satisfied, since this particular problem we face at this moment, is out of our control". Maybe I'm wrong in my wording there or you don't agree, but if you run or work for a web host, if something's out of your control, the best I think you can do, is say something like "Here's what's going on... unfortunately, it's out of our control to do anything about, so what can I do for you to make you happy, given the current circumstances? Hardware upgrades (no charge), compensation of some sort? In the meantime, we are doing everything we can to expedite this situation and get you satisfied as soon as possible."

Sometimes your options are limited and if you do what you can, and offer whatever remedy or compensation you can, I'm not sure what else someone could do, or would be expected to do? As he said, what do you suggest they do? If you have a reasonable suggestion for circumstances like this, I too would be interesting in you letting me know, and if it's a good idea and not something people already do, I think that most, if not all of us here would be interested in implementing such a policy.

uh
I make the comments that I make because *I* am the sysadmin of xtstrike's box that he is SUPPOSE to be receiving from weinbar. I'm also disappointed with the delay, it's not like i'm some stranger that just is sticking his two cents in for no reason

Look... I spent over 2 weeks going over my needs and researching Weinbar before I jumped in. An ISP selection is a serious issue, not one you go into in a rush or with little planning. My server is going to be arriving at their place in 10:30am Friday (18 hours from now).

Experience and expectations matter. Weinbar has rock-bottom prices and still delivers what I consder _WAY ABOVE AVERAGE_ customer service. Above average compared to other ISP's, not 5* Rivera hotels.

New server setup may be a critical first impression, but also realize that it isn't a trivial task. 98% of the work of an ISP goes in those first few days... having the rack space ready, UPS and power, network in place, IP addresses available, software installs, getting payment worked out, contracts, etc. Even with the BEST OF THEM, it is very difficult to do perfect in every case.

I've worked with 20 ISP's over the last 5 years, and so far -- EVEN CONSIDERING the experience I read in this thread, they are one of the best! And they are also the cheapest of all those ISP's.

I'm sorry to disagree, but I think saying 24 to 48 hours and then being a little behind is very very common. Yes, there are places that can have a server up for you in 30 seconds, but I think Weinbar in general has a very good balance of service. They answer their questions, and everything I see says it is the TRUTH. Instead of telling BS that people "want to hear" -- Michael is here telling the facts and not dumbing it up like most the other places do.

The site I'm putting in at Weinbar has some very sophisticated connectivity requirements and does a lot of very time critical network monitoring. You better believe I'll report any problems... but I want to go on record that so-far I have found Weinbar to be in TOP OF THE CLASS when it comes to pre-sales and contract issues.

ISP's in general have very poor customer service... Weinbar isn't perfect, but compared to the rest... they are really great. Expectations.

You already knew you came in right after a major network problem they had... and by all accounts this was an unusual event for them.... cut them some slack.

I support you either way, but I also feel that what you describe is still "above average". I've had many "highly rated" ISP's refuse to respond, no matter how much time they had. Ever had a co-located server "held hostage" by an ISP?

If Michael says he's working on it then I see no reason to not believe him.

I imagine he his keeping on top of Aperian to get him those IPs.

I also believe that if he had another option he'd use it.

Stephen, i was going for that, but unfortunately, don't really know what i'm talking about, thanks for that... :)

these boxes aren't toys, kids.

i undestand, both xstrike and node9, your frustration, however i don't think you guys realize the situation completely. i also understand how the customer is always right etc... however, i do not think you guys are approaching the situation the right way.

bashing your ISP is not a good idea if you want to continue to have good service, Michael is only human, human's hold grudges... (i apologize for speaking on behalf of you Michael, BTW)

like Stephen says, this is a budget hosting industry, not some high end line... although we usually get service equal to or better than high end, we shouldn't expect it. it is hosts like Michael who have spoiled us thus far, but we shouldn't take it for granted.

there is a difference between posting "i am dissapointed that my server has yet to be connected, even given the cirumstances" and offering snide comments...

Well, if it were my business, i am the kind of person that would currently be looking for alternatives, does WeinBar not have ANY IP addresses left? do we HAVE to be plugged into the damaged router? can a company as massive as asperian not plug our servers into a different, possibly even slow router while the issue is solved?, then switch us over once the system is fully up and running?

With regard to moving to a different ISP, I would not want to, even after the setup problems it has STILL NOT PUT ME OFF.
Its just annoying that people have to wait so long to get hold of WeinBars AMAZING power.

Are they a victim of their own popularity? have they ran out of IP's because of their popularity, it would seem so...

xtstrike -- Perhaps you are new to the back-end work, so I'll go over the basics.

The Internet has been in perpetual "IP Address Shortage" since about 1990 :) Key technologies like NAT have pushed it back, but it isn't a new issue. And it HAS NOT gone away. It is just being "contained".

Currently an ISP can't just get extra IP addresses for fun. They must USE THEM within a very short period of time or they get taken away. It is a very serious issue for an ISP. Time consuming and sort of a "Just In Time" system.

There are chains of requests that go from smaller ISP's up to larger ones.

Remember, those addresses get published to the entire globe... you can't just make them up! They must be properly configured and distributed.

Everything Weinbar has described sounds legit. Yes, the timing sucks right now... especially if you are that new customer, but they seen to have a history of this (IP Addresses) not being a problem... and I expect that they will learn from this and try to do more to prevent it in the future. But reality is: at the root of a problem like this -- most of the Internet favors "existing / established" over new, and at times, getting new activation does get delayed.

In simple terms, this type of thing is very normal... especially from an ISP with a lot of recent growth from these forums!

Thank God that Network Solutions (Verisign) doesn't control IP Addresses... it would take months :)

I can see berating an ISP because thier network went down continously or other problems, but setup time is a tough one to beat someone up on. There are a lot of variables involved in setting up equipment, and it's a one-time event, which has no reflection on the quality of hosting.
It's hard to beleive you are in a position where you must get a server up in two days. Usually deploying a server involves weeks of planning for me. A couple of days for setup is not significant.

Chris

IMVHO if you do not have the IP's then you shouldn't be offering to set up servers.
Or are we saying that Weinbar have the IP's but are reliant on a change on the routers subnet masks or defualt routes? If so why are Weinbar reliant on third parties to make these changes.

Reliance on others particularily where there is a single point of failure or bottleneck in the business process is not very professional.

Originally posted by StephenRS
The Internet has been in perpetual "IP Address Shortage" since about 1990 :) Key technologies like NAT have pushed it back, but it isn't a new issue. And it HAS NOT gone away. It is just being "contained".

Currently an ISP can't just get extra IP addresses for fun. They must USE THEM within a very short period fo time or they get taken away. It is a very serious issue for an ISP. Time consuming and sort of a "Just In Time" system.

Totally agree. That's why they are going to come out with IP v6. It is a real pain to request an IP block from ARIN if you can't justify each one of those addresses.

You guys should give Michael a break, all of us have been at some point in time through situations like this. I sure expect my server to be up on time :) but if it can't be on time :( then I guess I will try to understand!

Ya, i say sit back, have some tea and let Michael get everything worked out.

as a response to masonc, I am currently comming from this point, I accept there can be setup delays, and am willing to go with them, its just there is no fixed time of completion, is it arin causing the delay, is it aperian is it WeinBar.

It is one of those three companies, probably now working together to solve the situation as we speak, but no ETA, its a well known factor that the entire world revolves around ETAs

Even if another host came to me now and offered me the same package for less in half the time, i would not change my mind.

I dont see Many other ISP's on this board doing the same, the ISP's that are on this board have it right i think, if people have issues, discuss them publicly, because if you dont then the person you talked privately with will end up posting it publicly without your knowledge, at least WeinBar are here to explain every step of the way WHY these things are happening.

so all that remains to ask is, WeinBar: ETA? thats all im interested in, you said, before the end of today, how about another update considering the circumstances?

OK folks, here's the latest:

1. Yes, we do have IP's, but given the fact that our current promotion is ending, we have had a significant amount of signups for hosting and they were utilized. We did see this coming and requested another class C in time so that there wouldn't be any slowdowns. Unfortunately, there was a router problem at the beginning of this week, and Aperian would NOT update their list of IP's for fear that they would bring the whole network down (just in case something happened. It is a precaution). There are redundant routers, but because one went down, we are running on the one good one. Cisco is here right now replacing the faulty one so we will be back on redundant routers tonight (hopefully). Until that happens, there won't be any updating of the IP's.

Just for the record, we DO have IP's available to us (and to our clients) but they can't be "turned on" yet. That is all that we are waiting on.

I am trying to free up some live IPs now so that I can switch out the new IPs on the servers that people are desperate to have online today and then the box just needs to be reconfigured. I am sure that they won't be a continuous block, though. I will then reassign the new IPs to the ones that have been taken from existing machines so that I can make everyone happy again (I hope!)

We are on top of it. It is not like we are trying to sabotage anyone here. The best I can do right now is keep everyone abreast of the situation and take it from here. It is not poor planning, just a glitch in the system that WILL work itself out.

Xtstrike: I promised you will have your server up today and even if Aperian and Cisco cannot get it resolved tonight, I am going to make it happen for you.

Jeff: Same thing.

Bert: Yours will be up tomorrow (hopefully tonight).

Stephen: We are awaiting your server and your IPs will be fine. We just need to plug it in and you are on your way.

I can go on and on, I know I have left quite a few people out, but rest assured, James, Larry, Joe and myself will not rest until everyone is taken care of.

Originally posted by Tim_Greer



Sometimes your options are limited and if you do what you can, and offer whatever remedy or compensation you can, I'm not sure what else someone could do, or would be expected to do? As he said, what do you suggest they do? If you have a reasonable suggestion for circumstances like this, I too would be interesting in you letting me know, and if it's a good idea and not something people already do, I think that most, if not all of us here would be interested in implementing such a policy.


There have been several good points mentioned here by everyone. And I agree that the situation we're discussing can happen to any product or service provider and I also agree that this particular host is in the higher (better) end of the spectrum as far as providing a service and responding to customer issues.

So for everyone's benefit, this thread is better used as a post-mortem since the same thing can and does happen to anyone - so what could be done differently in the future?

I know nothing about hosting - I am a hosting customer, but my profession is customer service in a different industry - but the same concepts apply.

First of all - where do you want to place your service in terms of reliability, support, etc, and then price and promote accordingly. Do you want to be at 6 sigma (a few defects per million) or is it OK if things don't work right occasionally, or somewhere in between. Do you want to treat your service like a jet carrying hundreds of passengers and you check and double check everything and have redundancy built in? As someone said, hosting seems to be a commodity market and a lot of people shop primarily on price. But I'm sure there are some that will pay the price for a rock solid system. By the way, saying that you can do something in 1 hour and getting it done in 1hr 15 minutes is a defect. An incorrect setup in a configuration is a defect.

One way to look at the opportunities for "defects" is to step through your process from beginning to end and look for opportunities where failures can occur. Those that have a higher probability of occuring and have a higher negative impact should be dealt with first. For web hosting you could start from receiving customer order through configuration and setup and then providing the ongoing service and customer support.

Look at the possible failure modes and see what you can do to eliminate them or at least reduce their impact.
(By the way, the technique to do this is called Failure Mode and Effects Analysis (FMEA)


For example - someone said "The Internet has been in perpetual "IP Address Shortage" since about 1990 Key technologies like NAT have pushed it back, but it isn't a new issue. And it HAS NOT gone away. It is just being "contained". "

And somone else said- "IMVHO if you do not have the IP's then you shouldn't be offering to set up servers."

So if the above is true and if getting the IP address is the bottleneck in setting up a new server, and it is also the item that is beyond your immediate control- something needs to be done to deal with this "known" issue. Can you get IP addresses ahead of time? Or - don't commit a firm delivery date to the customer until you have the IP address in hand.

I have no idea what a server costs and if most servers are basically the same - so I'm not sure how practical the followingis. But if you know you have a pretty regular order pattern for servers - can you always have a server ready with IP address for the next customer order? If not all servers are the same - you could advertise that if a customer orders a server with a certain range of options/configuration - you already have it ready and on hand and guarantee with very high confidence that you can deliver to a specific timeline.


As far as customer communications - I realize that it may not be practical to be sending updates every 10 minutes. So, is there a way for the customer to check on the status him/her self? Wow - how can you do that??? Well - what if you define some key steps in setting up a new server and put them into a database that the customer could log onto and see. Maybe they would see something like this.

Step Original New Last
DATE/TIME DATE/TIME Updated

1 4/26/01 09:00 4/26/01 14:00 4/26/01 14:30 complete
2 .
3 .
4
.
.
.
Final 4/29/01 12:00 4/30/01 09:00

As key steps in the process are completed, someone could quickly update this database. Maybe the application could even send the customer an email notifying them that the status has been updated.



This is a very long winded response, but I got on a roll and wanted to try to give some positive contribution to this thread.

I'm not entirely sure what the situation is on this board. I can see that there are a lot of hosts contributing to the posts - but don't know if there is a reluctance to share information that might help your competitors. Or if you see that the market for hosting is so large that helping somone else out won't hurt you.

From what I have seen, for the most part I think it is the latter.

From my point of view as a hosting customer - anything that any of you can do to improve the overall reputation of web hosts would help. Nothing personal toward any of you - but I know that from just one experience with a previous host I am very supicious of any claims about anything. So my bad experience with one host now makes me not trust any of you - again nothing personal - I am using "you" in the broadest sense.

So unfortunately, those of you that run a respectable business have to deal with the bad impressions that are made by some of the fly-by-night hosts. And from reading posts on this board - there are a LOT of bad impressions - otherwise why would I see so many people constantly asking about the repuation of this host versus another over and over again.

So you might want to consider what experiences people may have had before coming to you when you try to judge their questions and comments. I know that after my first bad experience - I was probably looking for faults in my next host - but not intentionally. So as soon as I didn't get a reponse to an email within a few hours - I was thinking the worst.


So to benefit everyone - maybe you'd be interested in sharing the following (but in a different thread with a different name).

1. What are some of major problems that occur in setting up and running a server?
2. What is the probability of the problem happening? (High, Medium, Low)
3. How bad is the impact if the problem does happen? (High, Medium, Low)

What can be done to eliminate or reduce the probability of the problem or what contingency can be put in place to reduce the negative impact?

With all the expertise that's on this board - you should be able to do this in no time.

I think xstrike's original complaint was the fact that there was no communication after
being told his server would be ready at a certain time. We all know how frustrating that is,
and it appears that is something Weinbar needs to work on. Its just too bad it has to reach the
point where someone feels their only option to get anything done is to start posting on here.

On the other hand it is obvious Weinbar is sincerely doing what he can which is more than
I can say with a lot other hosting companies. You have got to give him credit for even coming
on this board and subjecting himself to some of this abuse. It is not a perfect world, people
are not perfect, and s**t happens. What makes a good company is how the imperfections
are dealt with. Its obvious he's not screwing anyone around. Hopefully Weinbar will get
through these growing pains and be a rock solid company.

Thank you for the insight WeinBar + Fox - I think is those two messages alone it has closed everybody’s questions and suspicions on many of the aspects of web hosting setup, and the problems that can be encountered.
I think as fox says, let this be a lesson in this thread that web hosting can be a vicious world.
Take my example as I am the starter of this thread, I came from ***** (the acct I recently cancelled) having waited over a week for my server to be configured, I waited patiently and did not question a single thing, “WHY” did I not question them?, well I can tell you, it is because it had not happened to me before, I was expecting a wait, and they led me along, “done soon”, “nearly there”, “almost done”.
I signed up with WeinBar after my cancellation, Michael was great, he answered everything, and even what I would class, as a little special treatment.

I left, handed over my credit card number, then BANG, downtime, what am I to think?, then comforted by Michael, I ask for an ETA, “quicker than you can spit, “less than a day probably”, I left the conversation, as the happiest customer an ISP could have, I posted great words about them on WHT, then the failed to deliver, as fox said, I have had previous experiences, ISP’s are not the almighty evil, your mind takes over, “ok, looks like another *****”.

But NO, after a long think throughout this thread, and another read through it I wonder why I was like that, well, It was only because of OTHER peoples experiences of WeinBar and Michael coming on here regularly that radically changed my mind, I commend Michael for doing this, there are not many ISP’s that are willing to answer complaints on a public bulletin board with thousands of members, maybe this is what gives some ISP’s such a negative rating, maybe there should be a section to this site dedicated to ISP complaints, they will be public, and the ISP will have a chance to support themselves and the public can see exactly how they managed the situation.

SO, as a final close to this I am happy, I have an ETA, as do many others.
As fox has suggested various ways of ensuring this does not happen in future, I would like to see some of this discussed, I might start one myself, but this kind of thing can only help your ISP industry and your business.

I feel this thread has done more to promote WeinBar as a reputable ISP, more than it has damaged business, people can see this thread as a reference to how many supporters Michael has and how well he managed the situation.

Thank You WeinBar, and I look forward to working very closely with you in the near and distant future. And I sincerely hope our working relationship does not come to this again.

Originally posted by xtstrike
I have had previous experiences, ISP’s are not the almighty evil, your mind takes over, “ok, looks like another *****”.

You and Fox are right. Unfortunately every single person who have had a bad experience with a host will always be skeptical, and lets face it a delay in a server setup can happen to any host. There are just too many things that can go wrong and sometimes they go wrong just after the business made a promise.

I don't think we should judge any host or any business whatsoever just because we had one bad experience. I think this was just a bad start. Time is the only factor that will give us an "overall" experience.
I am pretty confident that Weinbar and Michael will be there for us in the future! ;)

Good job XT, Weinbar, and bert.

Bert: What you said was absolutely right, I totally agree.

Weinbar has been good, this is just a slight problem that they are experiencing, but we all know weinbar isn't a ***** or a cobaltracks.com (<- what a joke eh?)

I hope weinbar gets everythign *SMOOTHLY* running like they have been soon :)

Michael, it is your turn now to thank us all for the compliments!!!

Just kidding ;)

Hi,

I do agree with some of you that things may not always happen right first time.

What matters ultimately is the attitude and after reading these posts, it becomes clear that Michael has the right attitude and is willing to face this forum.

The first step to solving problems is often owning up that there indeed was a problem and it does take guts
to say it out in a public forum.

Things do go wrong in the IT industry as a whole and
it is often difficult to keep up promises to deliver on a given time.
What can be done is to plan for thing going down and
act accordingly.Easier said than done because of costing issues.

I too have faced many situations where everything seemed to go wrong without reason and
customers did not agree to the explanations.

I wish Micheal and all his customers the best and hope the situation gets normal soon.


Cheer up !

:beer:

Matra

Fox, I know what you mean and understand completely. About the IP's there, he did have them, but there was a problem delivering them at the time they were supposed to be there. Due to the restrictions on IP's and how many you have a current client's you have (and how they can be assigned as well), it's difficult to unrealistic to just save them aside and you sometimes have to get new one's and that's sometimes part of the process.

As for a log of activity in setting up servers, it's not a bd idea in theory, but you have to remember that the biggest delay, is when you're doing other things. A post every 1 hour ot 3 hours saying "Still can't get to your server, but will still get it done by the 48th hour" over and over will not help anyone be anymore patient. Setting up a server doesn't take that long. However, surely posting something like "We have just started setting up your server at $time/$date. We should be done in so-many minutes, assuming there are no conflicts or problem with the server's hardware. And post again saying "We've completed and tested the install at $date/$time." Of course, that IP issue is another aspect.

I agree about the web hosting industry and the Internet in general. No offense taken at all. Most web hosts I've seen don't even seem to try or care. Personally, I was going to set up my own web host business. I have the knowledge and care to do it and I believe I would do it quite well. However, even with the money aspect, I still wasn't sure. Why? Because I was so concerned with everything being perfect and all the steps and time it takes to do it properly. It's a massive amount of work, planning and time. I'm not saying other hosts or the host in question didn't, but you see, the fact that I'd want to make sure there were no possible problems like this recent issue, was the reason why I couldn't do it. I mean, I could have, but that would probably limit the potential to grow. Of course, I'm not saying you can't grow without mistakes or problems, just that the likelihood of no problems, isn't likely.

You can try and plan to avoid any possible problems and your network can still go down, because both your redundant upstream providers have problems, then you're back to the "I don't care who's fault it is, if you're down, you're down". That's true and I can understand why people think that way, but it's almost impossible to avoid in all aspects.

So, this is one reason why I didn't want to dedicate all my time and energy and money to trying to build my own web hosting business, when there are some decent and good providers out there now, doing everything else right, actually caring and trying and doing, and still, they can sometimes have problems too. It's, as you can imagine, not always fun and I don't need that much stress at this point in my life personally, so I'll hold off on the running a web host myself, until I get to that point, later down the road where I will have that much time to prepare and plan and prevent, since that in itself can be a full time job -- not to mention everything else involved. It's just that I am the type too, that wants everything perfect, and web hosting is the biggest threat to that sometimes, and that problem usually is due to things out of your control, no matter how much planning you do. So, it takes even more, which I will give my best shot one day.

I'm sorry, I just feel that your post was a threat to my posting status here, you see, I'm the local typing addict, not you -- don't take that away from me! :-(

Ha Ha !!!!!!!

prom·ise (prms)
n.


A declaration assuring that one will or will not do something; a vow.
Something promised.
Indication of something favorable to come; expectation: a promise of spring in the milder air.
Indication of future excellence or success: a young player of great promise.
v. prom·ised, prom·is·ing, prom·is·es.
v. tr.
To commit oneself by a promise to do or give; pledge: promised a quick answer; left early but promised to return.
To afford a basis for expecting: thunderclouds that promise rain.
v. intr.
To make a declaration assuring that something will or will not be done.
To afford a basis for expectation: an enterprise that promises well.

Originally posted by WeinBar

Xtstrike: I promised you will have your server up today and even if Aperian and Cisco cannot get it resolved tonight, I am going to make it happen for you.

promise: A declaration assuring that one will or will not do something; a vow.

8:46am UK (3:36am USA)

I want to put it lightly and to stress that it is not a big issue, but, I normally phone/e-mail somebody if i cant keep a promise.

My New ETA please?

New ETA - Now.

I am still at the NOC (haven't gone home yet) and your IPs have finally been allocated. Your server is up and running.:D

I don't have access to our email forms here, but I will email you preliminary information until I get back to the office at some point this morning. Still have a lot to do, but I was with Cisco all night (into the morning) making it happen for you --


As I promised.


*promise: A declaration assuring that one will or will not do something; a vow.

woohoo, way to go WeinBar (Michael).

If this hasnt been a test to show how dedicated you are as an ISP i dont know what has!

Well Done :D

fox -- your questions are so deep and complicated, that they would take an entire shelf of books to answer. I am not joking.

Computers are some of the most complicated things man has ever invited. PERIOD. Even with people who are trained on them, the average skill level is very low.

Trying to put a computer in basically a "lights out room" and run it from remote only makes it MORE complicated. Letting thousands of people access it to view your content is more complicated yet... let alone all the factors that go into letting a single client connect to a web machine.

It would be great if customer service were perfect in the computer industry (including web hosting), but it is not a mature industry. Right now, most people are content to have their system at all... spending too much time perfecting something just ends up entrenching ourselves in at this state of maturity. 20 years ago we tossed out the Mainframe in favor of more control... but we are still learning.

Wild ride, enjoy it! In 15 or 25 years, this industry will die down :) 1TBps of bandwidth will cost nothing $1/month, and one single server that could run everything we have on the Internet today will cost $10,000.

Of course, we will be doing some form of holographic video conference by then, so 1TBps won't be enough :)

Back to earth... I'm serious to the point that a place like Weinbar didn't even exist 3 years ago. Despite the Internet being around for over 20 years, it is only in the last couple that prices for such bandwidth have gone down so much. These guys offer EXCELENT service compared to everyone else! For what Weinbar is charging me $150/month their cost is at least $120... the service I get for $30 a month is so far beyond GREAT that I can't even fathom how to explain it to a newbie. These guys are GREAT!!! The rest of the companies are really really really bad from your (non computer industry) perspective.

WEINBAR SERVER UP AND RUNNING :D

Ok, im happy.

All i can say is Michael surely has dedication to dedicated servers :)

18 HOURS non stop !!!

And im stuck in work behind one of the worlds most secure firewalls without Telnet :-( Life Truly Sucks!

xstrike, congrats! finally, phew :D

Mich, you can go to bed now :D

cheers,
:beer:

I wish. Still working ... I think I will be going home soon, though. I am a little tired now.:sleeping:

Good job Michael :agree:

xtstrike, I feel your pain, hehehe :D

Im sure many feel the same pain of firewalls, thats why im about to cheat the system on monday and come to work prepared/armed with a modem, bwahaha

Again, thanx Michael

(Could this turn into a 4 page thread?, damn that would be good :-) lol)

I must say WELL DONE Michael. As i tried to convince you Xstrike on the other post about Weinbar dedication, i'm sure you know now. ENJOY your FREE 128 RAM :D

Come off it DJ, the guilt is settling in now :rolleyes:

lol

Originally posted by xtstrike
Come off it DJ, the guilt is settling in now :rolleyes:

lol

It should.

I hate to say it, but I would have probably just refunded your money and sent you home.

Customer service is important, however I have a life too. What you have done - posting in public to embarass your new provider - and then milked it to a successful conclusion with free extras thrown in gives a bad name to customers all over.

Sorry, but this whole thing leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. If it were me, I'd send Weinbar a check for the memory, and something extra for the above and beyond service you have received.

You should consider this a partnership relationship, not a me, me, me relationship.

-t

thewitt,

Lets not blame Xtstrike, I could only said that he ordered the server at the wrong time. (unlucky)

Michael's problem is TOTALLY beyond his control and off course he took the full responsibilty. Let just hope everything will be fine now & Xstrike, do test out your server to see the quality of speed :)

thewitt,

Lets not blame Xtstrike, I could only said that he ordered the server at the wrong time. (unlucky)

Michael's problem is TOTALLY beyond his control and off course he took the full responsibilty. Let just hope everything will be fine now & Xstrike, do test out your server to see the quality of speed :)

Whoa! I must be really tired. I'm seeing double now!

OK, goodnight all! Gotta get a couple of hours sleep before UPS arrives.

Have a good rest Michael. You definately deserved it. Sweet dreams :)

I can understand both sides, although I have to say I did got a good laugh out of how xtstrike's attitude changed once Michael mentioned the extra 129mb :D
:D :D

Weinbar/Michael did show some very good qualities that you will not find with many webhosts.

(I would need a belly dancing smiley here now, hehe :D)

xstrike=over reaction

Ok, Now I'm pissed... my server has been sitting at Weinbar ready to unbox for almost ONE HOUR!!

You guys wore out Michael and he had to go sleep... that UPS package he was talking about was my server. I paid overnight shipping for it!

So at least I think xstrike should send me the free RAM :kaioken:

Plus, I think Weinbar owes me at least a nickle off my first bill, what do you guys think?

xtstrike = bad experiences * 2 = frustration

StephenRS - i will give you a FREE* shell on my server for the troubles i have caused you.

Admittedly, i did over react, in hindsight i admit that (Tony Blair Impression) and it probably was caused by the other two ISP's, but im one of their happiest customers now, and i have my first 4 page thread, which makes me even happier :-) lol



*all FREE shells come with 1mb transfer per month, each additional megabyte it charged at $40

xstrike -- great, I'll take it. Do you have Satan installed on your system? I have some "">>nework tests<<"" to run against some of Weinbar's infrastructure. Since your box is already up and running, I figured I could do it from your shell account ;)

Just post the username and password here on the forum.

good job weinbar, eventually, my d-server is up online by now. besides the 10 hours delays for putting the server up. Tech. support is great!

StephenRS, I agree with you. xtstrike should give you the free RAM :D, or maybe you can make a deal and you can each use it for one month.

PS. If you get the Ram then this post cost you $20 (commision). :D

You guys must have killed Michael last night... my server has been there 3 hours and no word :)

This impatience is catching on :)

Can you guys connect to WeinBar? Looks like they're down again :(

It is being worked on now.

Stephen: Your server is going online shortly. I will let you know as soon as it is up.

Hehe.. my site (which is on weinbar)is down :)
Its only been like 5 minutes though ... so be pateitn ..hehe

It's xts's fault. He made Michael so tired he accidentally tripped over a cable sleepwalking and now Weinbar is down. Geeeeeeeeeez.

Michael, when you find the time please let us know what's going on. Thanks.

I noticed it about 25-30 minutes ago. I was working on my website.

Yes, this should NOT be a very long outage. We are truly sorry for this minimal downtime and will have it back up shortly. Thank you for your patience.

Michael -- please understand I have been jesting here :) You are on-schedule! The sarcastic comments have been directed to others on the forum, not you.

I hear ya!

Also, the outage is on one of our shared servers, not the network at all.

My server is up! Yey! It just emailed me to tell me it had started.

Pretty cool to build a server, do all the install... put in the IP addresses... box it up... overnight it

Then all Weinbar had to do was rack it, connect power and ethernet and turn it on.... I had it programmed to automatically come up and email me :)

congrats!

Now, feel free to do whatever test you want :) And also don't forget to put the result here:

http://webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?&threadid=7681

cheers,
:beer: