Free IPs according to Arin rules, you need justification and what if You paid for those IPs do you still need to provide justification? This particular provider is different, we paid for the IPs and when we asked for it, they need justifications and reason to use the IPs?

what do you guys think?

I am not completely up on the Arin policies, but the rules state you simply need to use 80% of the IP's given to you. Right? So I don't really know if they can charge when they said you can get em' for free, but if you aren't using your 80% quota... then maybe they use that as the reason to charge you.

I dunno.. as far as providing justification, don't you "always" need to? Even is there free or not?

I believe selling IP's is allowed. They are providing a service. You can certainly go directly to ARIN yourself, but I believe you have to get no smaller than /20 and you still have the 80% rule. Getting your IP's through your provider allows you to get IP's that you couldn't get on your own if you are a small company.

If you've paid for the IP's and you need them, then obviously you can justify them. If you can't justify them, then you don't need them. In this case, get your money back.

Originally posted by skelley1
If you've paid for the IP's and you need them, then obviously you can justify them. If you can't justify them, then you don't need them. In this case, get your money back.

Agreed. They shouldn't need anymore than your word. Like skelley said, if you don't need em' get your money back.

If you paid for a car, do you need a reason to get the car from the dealer? Besided I provide dedicated server, each server assigned 5 to 10 Ips, if my client doesn't use it all, does that mean I can not have new IP for new server? :eek:

Originally posted by vegs
Free IPs according to Arin rules, you need justification and what if You paid for those IPs do you still need to provide justification? This particular provider is different, we paid for the IPs and when we asked for it, they need justifications and reason to use the IPs?

what do you guys think? what I think is, they asked for free IPs from Arin and they charge customers for those IPs! is that allowed?

FREE IP's from ARIN? Are you insane?

I pay ARIN ~$7,500/year for my IP's.... I think you need to check out their fee schedule....

http://www.arin.net/registration/fee_schedule.html

heh maybe you should recheck your options do you? :rolleyes: Maybe I should go with Arin directly, after all $7500 per year is a small amount.

Originally posted by haxorboi


FREE IP's from ARIN? Are you insane?

I pay ARIN ~$7,500/year for my IP's.... I think you need to check out their fee schedule....

http://www.arin.net/registration/fee_schedule.html

Yikes! then the original argument is moot. Guess I should have looked into it a bit before even offering a reasonable explanation.
:blush:

Originally posted by vegs
heh maybe you should recheck your options do you? :rolleyes: Maybe I should go with Arin directly, after all $7500 per year is a small amount.

Ip addresses are a limited resource, so of course you have to reasonably justify them. Your uplink has to report the ip usage to their uplink or directly to ARIN, and they have to adhere to certain policies, like RFC 2050 (stating the amount you have to have used, when, etc.) not only that, but ARIN also constantly checks network maps, usage patterns, etc. I mean you cant have IP's just for anything, you can bind 100% of the ip addresses you're allocated, but if they're not being used for reasons that ARIN considers valid, you might as well not be using any of them as ARIN wont count them as used.

And exactly what haxorboi said, where the heck do you get the idea that IP addresses are free?!?! They're a limited resource on the worlds biggest money making platform, and you think they'd be free? Haw-Haw :laugh: :D.

BTW, IP's are not like cars, theres no reasonable comparison there, why not compare it to buying apples at the supermarket, if you buy 3/4 of their apples and leave them on the side of the road to rot in the super markets plain view, do you think they'll let you just walk in and buy the rest to do the same? I doubt it :eek2:.

I agree with you but I still hold to the principal that If i pay for it I should get it. The reason is that we are only getting 14 out of 64 Ips. Out of that 14, 7 is being used. Plus we have a a new transfer that require 20 Ips, all of them will be used. and they just wouldnt give that IP unless we use all that 7 and that would delay everything if we were to transfer 1 by one assign IP, wait for new IP transfer again, assign IP then wait for new IP. I mean I paid for that why would I get trouble and delay getting something that I paid for.

I think they wouldn't care a Sh1t if you would buy all those apple a leave it rot.

Its not the ISP that is doing this, its ARIN, they have to do exactly as ARIN wants, or they dont get more IP's. Giving you 64 IP's because you might need them is no excuse... because when they submit the paperwork to their upstream or ARIN and ask for more IP's, and they account for you block, ARIN is gonna say no way...

Yep,

We sell dedicated servers with 16 ip addresses, and only include 1 ip when setting them up. We keep a file of who has what ip's, how many their accounts are entitled to, etc. and when they need more, their accounts are checked against the database, and if they have more available on their account, they get them upon request for free, if not, they order them and receive them, can you imagine what would happen if everyone who *thought* they might somedya need 64 ip's ordered them and actually got 'em? With ipv4, we'd be screwd in a matter of months! :eek: :rolleyes:. Wait until ipv6 is the standard, then im sure you can have 64 ip's to power a single router :rolleyes: and nobody will think twice about it.

so what you are saying is that, if we pay for 64 Ips and we only get to receive 14 of them? LOL you pay for a dozen of apple and you are expected to receive only 4 of them. :rolleyes:

I did not say I might need them, They are needed 100%, once we got them all will be used right away.

Originally posted by vegs
so what you are saying is that, if we pay for 64 Ips and we only get to receive 14 of them? LOL you pay for a dozen of apple and you are expected to receive only 4 of them. :rolleyes:

I did not say I might need them, They are needed 100%, once we got them all will be used right away.

What im saying is, they're a limited resource, worldwide, if you cant justify you need them, you wont get 'em, simple as that. If you're only using 1/2 of what you already have, of course a providers not going to want to give you more :rolleyes:.

vegs you are missing the point. You are using 7 out of 14 IPs, therefore you have 7 which are unused. You need to use almost all of them until you can get any more IP addresses from ARIN. The IP address usage is monitored for a reason, because as porcupine says if everybody had 64 or so free IP addresses which were unused and just sat there collecting dust we would be completely screwed. There just isn't enough at the moment.

I think you are missing the major point here, 7/14 is being used, we need 20 for new server all 20 will be used right away. Even if we transfered 7 over, we still need 13. now do you understand? we paid for 64. and we want more IPs so we can fill out that order. How the heck do we complete the transfer while we even lack those 13 even though we paid for that IPs. It is not like we are wasting IP, we are using them to the fullest.

This is a matter which you should be taking up with ARIN and your supplier, not us ;)

well its not easy to talk to them, they are self righteous type of people.

Over the time that I dealt with ARIN they seemed OK. Whenever I needed any more IPs I got them with no problem.

Originally posted by vegs
I think you are missing the major point here, 7/14 is being used, we need 20 for new server all 20 will be used right away. Even if we transfered 7 over, we still need 13. now do you understand? we paid for 64. and we want more IPs so we can fill out that order. How the heck do we complete the transfer while we even lack those 13 even though we paid for that IPs. It is not like we are wasting IP, we are using them to the fullest.

ARIN requires subscribers to justify them before they can get more. ARIN doesn't care about anything other than the justification. If a host gives everyone 64 IPs and only half or even 40 are justified, that is 24/64 unused or 62% justified. When the provider goes to ARIN they have to PROVE 80% justification or ARIN says NO. You are only one customer but if they do this with everyone the IPs add up. If you provide your provider with valid justification, they should be able to give you what you need unless they cannot get more due to other customers not justifying properly.

We don't charge for IPs, and I don't think we could charge enough $ to make the hasstle worth it. Managing the IP space is one of the worst jobs in the company (my opinion). Customers don't understand, ARIN doesn't care and it is a constant juggle to make sure the subnets are set up optimally so there aren't wasted IPs which count as unjustified IPs.

Bottom line, ARIN controls the IPs and they make the rules. If the subscriber or provider doesn't play their game, they are out of business.

Originally posted by vegs
I think you are missing the major point here, 7/14 is being used, we need 20 for new server all 20 will be used right away. Even if we transfered 7 over, we still need 13. now do you understand? we paid for 64. and we want more IPs so we can fill out that order. How the heck do we complete the transfer while we even lack those 13 even though we paid for that IPs. It is not like we are wasting IP, we are using them to the fullest.

Your provider should only ask you for documentation on which are being used for what. (It has been my experience that they do not actually check your documentation to see what you are actually using) So, if you need 20 more, and all will be used right away, tell them you can justify 27 right now. In fact... send them the justification and that should help.

So... if you can justify 20 more, and have 7 unused right now... you should have no problems getting 15-20 ips from your provider.

Also... the 80% justification rule is for a 3 month period. If you are only using 1 IP right now, but can show that you will use 3,000 in 3 months, then you should technically be able to get your hands on 3750 of them right off the bat (not saying your provider will be too kind to this idea though)...

Write up a document that outlines what you are using now... what you expect to be using in 3 months... and also shows what you will be using the ip addresses for (ie... anon ftp or ssl is always good). Send it to your provider and that should get the ball rolling.

Originally posted by Brad@RackMy


We don't charge for IPs, and I don't think we could charge enough $ to make the hasstle worth it. ....Bottom line, ARIN controls the IPs and they make the rules. If the subscriber or provider doesn't play their game, they are out of business.


I was just wondering if you pay ARIN a yearly fee or not. Someone earlier in the thread said they pay a $7500 fee and was just curious if this is the norm.

I know some bandwidth providers will give you free IPs if I recall, but I believe these IPs belong to the carrier so if you move you must renumber.

Correct me if I am wrong on this as I have little experience in obtaining large sets of IPs.

I don't know who your provider is but it sounds as if they are having trouble getting them from their source. They may not have enough of their other customers IPs justified which is preventing them from getting more.

Just a thought.

Great point Brad, I don't think some people who are relatively new to dedicated servers realize the hassle managing IPs is. It truly can be at least a part-time job for an employee at a larger firm. We all wish we could have free reign on IPs but it will never be that way with all the advances we are making on the 'Net.

Peace.

What other justification is there for IP Addresses? It's not like your going to some foriegn country and you need to state a reason. This is IP addresses !!!! You need it for nameservers, websites.. What else you going to be using it for???

Originally posted by vegs
Free IPs according to Arin rules, you need justification and what if You paid for those IPs do you still need to provide justification? This particular provider is different, we paid for the IPs and when we asked for it, they need justifications and reason to use the IPs?

what do you guys think?

You only need two IP's for nameservers and your server. Any more would require justification (SSL, etc). The two original even require justification, which is that they are needed for the server.

Some people just want IP's just so they have them, but aren't actually using them, or they mistakenly think that they need two for each account. If you need more than two, you can get them, they just want to know why.

What if someone is giving away IP free with every static 20MB site for free. Is there anything ARIN can do with it. I know someone who give away free IP's. Which means 300 sites in one server then 300IP's. No matter if anyone wants or not. Now what the hell ARIN can do to that host.
:D:D:D:D

Yeah, bear in mind, an IP for a regular domain, is not justification, I don't give out IP's to people who need to host lots of domains. You guys are getting mad at the providers, try getting mad at the people that started abusing the IP's 5-8 years ago that put us in this position, ARIN is just doing a job, of trying to keep us from running out, and keep it organized. I know how hard it is to keep track of my /19's and I can not even begin to imagine how hard it is for arin...

So do you think if someone is giving IP's like control panel to end user is doing right thing. Do you think ARIN can do anything with someone who is misusing IP's. It's fault of ISP not ARIN here. Some ISP's are still doing foolish things by providing IP's to these kind of companies.
:D :D :D :D

Giving every site you host a dedicated IP is a total misuse of an IP address IMHO. There are zero performance-related issues when comparing IP-based and Virtual-based hosting, unless of course you want to debate the schematics of search engine positioning which is completely off topic. If the client wants to use a private SSL cert., or wants nameservers for anonymity then I can understand. But if I have a regular site without either of these there is no reason why it needs to have it's own IP. Having a shared IP on your server is a great option and very easy to configure accounts on. Most controlpanels, if not all?, have this capability already included as well.

Peace. :dgrin:

Right but I guess its insanity or suicidal move to provide IP's. By this way company bound itself into problems. If server crash to anything happen then your job is multiplied and if you move your host then its pain to allocating new IP's.
Overall More Ip's :bawling: