Hey guys
I have found interesting information about virtuozzo 2.5
I can't believe that one can divide 1 box to 2500 VPS
Does virtuozzo really can do this?
:confused:

I don't think many hosts would go to that extreme but it can be done.

Does virtuozzo really can do this?

Sure. But, do you have 2500 IPs? And do you know a server that can handle 2500 IPs?

I've heard that it can do it. Have you talked to an ******* salesman? The one I talked to told me that they did it with some super duper huge dell machine or something like that. I can't remember exactly what they used to do it, but it was way more than what most hosts use for hosting.

Guys what are you talking about?
VIRTU is sucks!
:puke:

Guys what are you talking about?
VIRTU is sucks!

Well heck, tell us about the problems you had - we like information here.

Originally posted by AHH
Guys what are you talking about?
VIRTU is sucks!


Why do you think so?
People from Dedicated Forum have recommended it.

Originally posted by Rotifer

Well heck, tell us about the problems you had - we like information here.

I have tried demo and haven't find any difference from ensim.
Why should I pay more for the same product?

From what I understand Ensim operates in a completely different manner than H S P Complete/Virtuozzo. Then again, I've never used Ensim - it would be nice to hear a comparison of the two from someone that knows exactly how both partition resources and such.

but very different. We had Ensim and now work with H S P complete (with installation, support, etc. it was a lot cheaper than an Ensim system - like 4 to 5x).

Ensim has better control panels, but H s P complete integrates with c-panel and h-sphere, so we're OK.

First off, you can only support like five real customers on an Ensim system, whereas we're now supporting over 150. Ensim's billing system is antiquated, buggy and doesn't work well with the automatic provisioning system.

The reason you fork out the $5 to $10k is to make your life easier and for a reasonable ROI. At 5 customers on a server and lots of headaches, we're glad we're using H S P complete. . .

on both White boxes and low-end Dells (nothing too fancy).

Originally posted by Rotifer
I've never used Ensim - it would be nice to hear a comparison of the two from someone that knows exactly how both partition resources and such.

Could somebody make a technical comparison?
Would be interesting to read it.
please!

You have tried it but not learned it.
Please don't speak about things you're aware of.
:D

Once again, mis-information from people (who MAY have never deployed Ensim SX).

Ensim has better control panels, but H s P complete integrates with c-panel and h-sphere, so we're OK.

So does Ensim.

First off, you can only support like five real customers on an Ensim system, whereas we're now supporting over 150.

Completely false. How do you know if you never used it (have you)? Was this you heard from a friend of a friend who knows Kevin Bacon thing? We have physial servers running 20 VDSs. Why put 150 on? Thatis 150 IPs, and what QOS are you getting?

Ensim's billing system is antiquated, buggy and doesn't work well with the automatic provisioning system.

True. But who would pay those rediculous prices for their BillMax billing system?


At 5 customers on a server and lots of headaches, we're glad we're using H S P complete

Well, we have had issues (which I promise you will find with H S P) with Ensim SX, however to state you could only put 5 on a box and had nothing but headches, tells me there is something else going. Maybe skill level, maybe trying to run VDSs on crap boxes with no RAM, whatever....

My point is that we have not had such a headache and we cruise with 20 on a box. Our deployment of a VDS is for QOS. So placing more then 20 on a box doesn't really work for us.


Could somebody make a technical comparison?

There was just a long thread about this. Maybe not as technical as you want, but it covers some basics. Do a search for it.

there's a lot of confusion here about pricing and what you get. from what i know virtuozzo is OS virtualization not just a virtual host on a linux box, i.e., webppliance. webppliance costs about $400 per box but it doesn't have billing or other stuff that comes with h s p c o m p l e t e and virtuozzo.

the correct tech comparison would be with ServerXchange and afaik the cost difference is big. ServerXchange lists at $25k plus additional $25k for OS virtualization plus monthly fees for each VPS; virtuozzo with h s p c o m p l e t e lists for $1.50 per mhz for unlimited VPS on the box, control panels, billing, etc. and it's a one-time cost.

a more detailed tech comparison would be interesting. Ensim VPS uses CPU % method and virtuozzo is CPU fair-share scheduling. what are the benefits of each approach? the downside? what kind of performance do you get in each VPS (compared to a stand-alone box) for each?

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
to state you could only put 5 on a box and had nothing but headches, tells me there is something else going. Maybe skill level, maybe trying to run VDSs on crap boxes with no RAM, whatever....

QoS is ultimately decided by customers, no? if a virtuozzo box with 40 vps gives the same QoS as ensim SX does with 20 vps (in our eval, our boxes that had trouble running 20 Ensim VPS have no problems with 40 virtuozzo VPS and deliver superior QoS), then the real point becomes value:
1. if i can get more VPS per box, and
2. each VPS can deliver better performance than a comparably priced stand alone box from a place like RackShack, and
3. i pay less money, then
4. does that mean are our skill level is higher than yours? ;)

seriously, we're looking at H S P now that we're satisfied with virtuozzo. umbillycord, what are the issues which you promise we'll "find with H S P"?

QoS is ultimately decided by customers, no?

This is false. A QOS guarantee is set by the business. A customer can not select what these values should be.

a virtuozzo box with 40 vps gives the same QoS as ensim SX does with 20 vps

This is impossible. You can not have the same QOS.

Let me ask you something. How many VDS with H S P can you put on a server that you give a guaranteed 128 RAM, and 5% of CPU? 20? Same with Ensim. Many people miss the originalpoint with VDSs. They are there as a mid level between dedicated and shared. Why would I want to pay more money for a VDS that you are cramming 150 VDSs on? For a few extra bucks, I will go with someone who *guarantees* me and *can not* oversell me a VDS. That is the way we see it and our VDS customer do too.

Now, I know where VDS technology is going. It will be the way H S P/Sphera is going. Multiple VDSs to improve QOS over a shared plan. People will start to see value in these lower cost VDSs with some isolation and root access. Also, once the named-based VDS is released, I see this replacing shared for many host. Look at Jumpline.

What will separate a VDS provider when thihappens is whatthe QOS is. Joe Hosting offers a 3 GB HD and 10% CPU with 256 RAM for $99. Jim Hosting has 150 VDSs with 500 MBs of space with a much smaller cpu/ram allotment. It iwll be like dedicated server shopping. How much resources do you really need to run your appssite for the best price range available to you.


<edit>
I forgot, the biggest thing we did not like was 1) The GUI. WEBpplaince on a VDS was much more powerful and had more options. Thsi was ~6 months ago though. 2) We did not like the pricing. I would rather pay per VDS then come up front. Note, pricing is a hell of a lot better then 6 months ago too. 3) We liked the SX platform virtualiztion over the H S P version. Simple preference. 4) SX has a mass upgarde option that lets us update every server in our farm with a few clicks. Key for us.

Don't get we wrong. H S P is great. We see ourselves using it down the road when we go to release a lower cost VDS. Ensim right now doesn't have this. Hopefully they release a VDS Lite version. :)

We use Virtuozo 2.5, with our latest CPanel servers, as they support Quota support. But we have seen that the QoS settings, aren't always promised as it was configured.

We have had problems where a VE as only limited to 150Mhz, she was able to go over 1,800Mhz for 9 hours straight (ran lynx, another one ran top, and left it on), so the QoS as it was built on, was useless.

I did file it as a bug, though haven't heard back.

Just to let you know, I don't know how Ensim works in a VDS system, but sure do know how VZ does ;)

Anyone who used Ensim VDS, how specific can you set your Quality of Service?

Here is what we can set in ours, I say it gets down very specific:


Size of unswappable kernel memory
9728 KB
Unswappable user's pages
128 pages
Total address space size
262144 pages
Total size of SysV IPC shared memory
6512 pages
Total size of shared anonymous memory
1024 pages
Number of processes
480
Total number of resident pages
21474836 pages
Guaranteed allocating address space
0 pages
Guaranteed size before kill
0 pages
Number of IP sockets
450
Number of file locks
100
Number of pseudo-terminals
12
Number of siginfo structures
256
Total size of TCP send buffers
2096 KB
Total size of TCP receive buffers
2832 KB
Total size of local socket buffers
1280 KB
Total size of UDP receive buffers
320 KB
Number of local sockets
210
Guaranteed network rate
2 MBit/sec
Disk inode quota
620000 inodes

Originally posted by HostInspect
Anyone who used Ensim VDS, how specific can you set your Quality of Service?



CPU Quota( %)
Network Quota (%)
Memory Quota (MBs)
Disk Quota (MBs)
Swap Space (MBs)
Process Limit
Maximum Number of Pseudo Terminals
Disk Write Bandwidth (%)
Maximum Disk Burst Size (sec )
Network Write Bandwidth (KB/sec)
Maximum Network Burst Size (sec )


You will notice one key one "CPU Quota". Ensim is right on with isolation. If someone uses up their 128 MBs of RAM, their VDS will die like a dedicated server. CPU was tested once where we ran the resources high on one VDS. It can burst. We then ran up some resources on a second VDS, and sure enough, the first server throttled down to allow for the CPU 'gaurantee' alloted to the second.


Also, run top on a H S P VDS and post the results. I want to see something. :)

Talking about memory usage?

Heh....

How well does yours handle memory?

Some of German Hosting Company are running with this software.

H S P C has a mass upgrade option. Actually its very powerful. You can not just choose to mass upgrade everyone you can pick and choose if you want or need to.

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
Let me ask you something. How many VDS with H S P can you put on a server that you give a guaranteed 128 RAM, and 5% of CPU? 20?


Yeah. RAM is key for virtuozzo. But it uses it more economically then ensim.



They are there as a mid level between dedicated and shared.


It's better to get VPS plan then shared plan for the same money.
From the customer's point of view.


Why would I want to pay more money for a VDS that you are cramming 150 VDSs on? For a few extra bucks, I will go with someone who *guarantees* me and *can not* oversell me a VDS. That is the way we see it and our VDS customer do too.


Again. It's better to buy virtuozzo VE then ensim VPS. In this case you'll get more then you have paid for. Do you like to get more then you have paid for?

Guys do not forget that Virtuozzo resource management process takes less CPU time than ensim does

Yeah. RAM is key for virtuozzo. But it uses it more economically then ensim.

I love it. Can you post these benchmarks you ran? Thanks.


It's better to get VPS plan then shared plan for the same money. From the customer's point of view.

Isn't that common sense? Not sure what this has to do with anything.


Again. It's better to buy virtuozzo VE then ensim VPS. In this case you'll get more then you have paid for. Do you like to get more then you have paid for?

Well, no offense, but this is quite ignorant. You have not pointed out one thing that makes one better then the other. Also, the results are purely personal. I do not think you "get more then you have paid for". The by deploy VDSs is not the same as you. So who cares if you can load more. My QOS will be better. I can guarantee my customers more resources if you load more VDSs on a server.

This comment is like saying a BMW is better then Mercedes. Is it? Sure, to the person who bought BWM.


Guys do not forget that Virtuozzo resource management process takes less CPU time than ensim does

goodW, you wouldn't happen to work for them would you. They were banned for Spamming here. Just curious. This is a pretty detailed point for an average user. Either you work for them, listened to their sales pitch, or you are certainly a detailed buyer. But since you posted, I would love to see these benchmarks too.


For those on a H S P VDS, can you please post a copy of your Top. I just want to see something.

Originally posted by HostInspect
Talking about memory usage?

Heh....

How well does yours handle memory?

Not sure what you are looking for. It handles it exactly as we expected and what we paid for. Many people who have issues with Ensim is because they do not use enough RAM. Once we started placing a lot of RAM (2 - 3 GBs) on our physical servers, we have not had any issues.

Please post a output from top on a VDS. Thanks.

Originally posted by Everyday
H S P C has a mass upgrade option. Actually its very powerful. You can not just choose to mass upgrade everyone you can pick and choose if you want or need to.

Sounds like Ensims. This is a great feature.

Umbilly, what specifically are you looking for from the TOP output? It seems to be a very big point in your reason to use ensim instead of h s p c. I'm sure you have done the tests on both and have the output you are referring to so why not post it here so we can see what you are talking about. I'm very curious as to the differences in these two pieces of software so any input on both would be appreciated.

UmBillyCord

It's just what I have heard from my friend. Now I'm thinking to start my own hosting project. Sure I'm interested in benchmarks too. I'll post the results when I get them.

It's just what I have heard from my friend.

Of course. Maybe you should put that in your post, since it was just a statement with no proof that you were able to verify.

Originally posted by Everyday
Umbilly, what specifically are you looking for from the TOP output? It seems to be a very big point in your reason to use ensim instead of h s p c. I'm sure you have done the tests on both and have the output you are referring to so why not post it here so we can see what you are talking about. I'm very curious as to the differences in these two pieces of software so any input on both would be appreciated.

Actually, it had nothing to do with it. I can't remember anything from the output on H S P. So I want to compare it. Nothing more.

My reasoning for using Ensim was different then yours. My experience has mostly been positive, both in support and pricing. I have followed your post since you started posting here. I saw the move away from Ensim and your post of displeasure with them. We never experienced that. I believe in strong partnerships. I do not like to jump ship unless something serious changes.

I'm not sure why folks are affraid to post the top results from Virtuozzo... So, here goes: 9:13pm up 20:52, 1 user, load average: 0.17, 0.36, 0.25
64 processes: 63 sleeping, 1 running, 0 zombie, 0 stopped
CPU0 states: 0.0% user, 1.0% system, 0.0% nice, 98.4% idle
CPU1 states: 0.2% user, 0.4% system, 0.0% nice, 98.4% idle
Mem: 2054152K av, 2042448K used, 11704K free, 0K shrd, 107924K buff
Swap: 4192880K av, 3500K used, 4189380K free 1231344K cached

PID USER PRI NI SIZE RSS SHARE STAT %CPU %MEM TIME COMMAND
7251 root 15 0 1052 1052 816 R 0.7 0.0 0:00 top
15640 root 10 0 43544 42M 18588 S 0.1 2.1 0:17 java
1 root 9 0 524 524 456 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 init
29120 root 9 0 564 564 460 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 syslogd
29133 root 9 0 1084 1072 936 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 sshd
29147 root 9 0 992 972 772 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 xinetd
29163 root 9 0 996 996 820 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 safe_mysqld
29198 mysql 9 0 4392 4392 1704 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 mysqld
29204 mysql 9 0 4392 4392 1704 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 mysqld
29205 mysql 9 0 4392 4392 1704 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 mysqld
29206 mysql 9 0 4392 4392 1704 S 0.0 0.2 0:00 mysqld
29214 root 9 0 1840 1680 1296 S 0.0 0.0 0:05 sendmail
29264 nobody 9 0 1380 1348 1028 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 proftpd
29276 root 9 0 672 672 560 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 crond
29292 root 9 0 3756 3672 1468 S 0.0 0.1 0:02 miniserv.pl
29299 root 9 0 3956 3852 1508 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 miniserv.pl
15578 root 9 0 2996 2936 2808 S 0.0 0.1 0:01 httpd
15585 apache 9 0 3272 3148 2796 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 httpd
15586 apache 9 0 3272 3148 2800 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 httpd
15587 apache 9 0 3288 3168 2796 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 httpd
15588 apache 9 0 3276 3152 2808 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 httpd
15590 apache 9 0 3208 3084 2804 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 httpd
15591 apache 9 0 3296 3172 2820 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 httpd
15592 apache 9 0 3272 3148 2800 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 httpd
15593 apache 9 0 3272 3148 2812 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 httpd
15601 root 9 0 2596 2596 1272 S 0.0 0.1 0:00 perl
15603 root 9 0 940 940 776 S 0.0 0.0 0:00 sh
15604 root 9 0 43544 42M 18588 S 0.0 2.1 0:03 java
15631 root 9 0 43544 42M 18588 S 0.0 2.1 0:00 java
15632 root 9 0 43544 42M 18588 S 0.0 2.1 0:03 java
15633 root 9 0 43544 42M 18588 S 0.0 2.1 0:00 java
15634 root 9 0 43544 42M 18588 S 0.0 2.1 0:00 java
15635 root 10 0 43544 42M 18588 S 0.0 2.1 0:36 java
15636 root 9 0 43544 42M 18588 S 0.0 2.1 0:00 java
15637 root 9 0 43544 42M 18588 S 0.0 2.1 0:00 java
15638 root 9 0 43544 42M 18588 S 0.0 2.1 0:01 java
15639 root 9 0 43544 42M 18588 S 0.0 2.1 0:06 java
15641 root 9 0 43544 42M 18588 S 0.0 2.1 0:00 java
15642 root 9 0 43544 42M 18588 S 0.0 2.1 0:00 java
This is a VE running Caucho's Resin with Apache. I've been abusing this too see how well Virtuozzo handles the dog that Java is. Works pretty well.

<< edit >> formatting...

Thanks Scott. I wanted to see if the TOP output would show the entire physicals server output or that of just the VDS. I couldn't remember.

Well, even that varies. The memory is the entire physical server and it isn't really accurate. Obviously that machine isn't using 2GB of RAM, I assume (I do this a lot) that the memory is allocated by the Virtuozzo scheduler / allocater so it can be controlled. Again, this is an assumption and should be read as such.

The process displayed are definitely only those in the Virtual Environment.

What is the allocation for RAM and CPU?

That particular VE is allocated about 10% of CPU (~250MHz I guess) and allowed around 512MB RAM. It's beefy in the memory department, because Java is such a hog, and usually in bursts.

Memory allocation is tough to figure out with Virtuozzo, it isn't as clear as "256MB". You have to specify kernel pages, shared memory, anonymous memory, and a few other little bits and pieces.

The Ensin VDS will only display the VDSs allotment. So the RAM would have been 512 and the CPU would display that VDSs use. I actually like this because a person can only see what their use is, not what the server is doing.

Originally posted by El Pollo Sup
virtuozzo with h s p c o m p l e t e lists for $1.50 per mhz for unlimited VPS on the box, control panels, billing, etc. and it's a one-time cost.

How did you come across this info?

I would rather that the values displayed were those available to the VE instead of the entire server. I'm not sure this is technically feasable though given the way memory is allocated in Virtuozzo. Ensim seems to assign memory to the VPS in advance where Virtuozzo only allocates and then assigns the memory on request -- again, speculation.

I would kill to have access to an Ensim host environment where I could truss some of the processes to see the system calls as they are invoked. It's more morbid curiosity than anything since Ensim pretty much told me I wasn't worth their time.

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
The Ensin VDS will only display the VDSs allotment. So the RAM would have been 512 and the CPU would display that VDSs use. I actually like this because a person can only see what their use is, not what the server is doing.

If you do 'top' in a Virtuozzo based VDS/VPS,

- in the RedHat version of Virtuozzo it will show:
1. VDS load average (not server wide)
2. Serverwide memory allocation
3. VDS processes
- in the FreeBSD version of Virtuozzo, it will show:
1. server wide load average (I might be wrong in this)
2. VDS memory allocation
3. VDS processes

2. Serverwide memory allocation Right, and this is the one that I'd like to see changed.

Even so, it's my belief that Virtuozzo is as close to perfect as you can get for hosting environments. It hasn't let me down yet.

Yes, I think it should be easy to make that changes. Another thing I like about Virtuozzo (well, we use *** Complete) is that the ability to move/migrate one VPS from one physical server to another. Not sure if Ensim has this capability.

Another thing I like about Virtuozzo (well, we use *** Complete) is that the ability to move/migrate one VPS from one physical server to another. Not sure if Ensim has this capability.

Ensim does too. I think overall, other then some minor details, they are very similar. Of course much more so then Sphera and the others.

Where can I find info on Virtuozzo pricing?

Its $1.50 per Mhz. Plus the $250 setup fee.

Originally posted by HostInspect
Its $1.50 per Mhz. Plus the $250 setup fee.

That's pricing for *** Complete, unlimite license. For Virtuozzo, one can have it for much less.

Ohh yes, forgot.

Virtuozo:

$250 for the first VE on that server.

Then it is $50 per each VE on that server.

We don't get charged anyways for it, we have 25+ servers with ***, don't think we paid anything cause our customer base.

Thats fair enough UmBilly, I wasn't trying to get on you I just thought you had something you were hiding int he background :) It is true that I am not a huge fan of ensim, I believe they think the are better than they are. Maybe they were the top a few years ago but today they are being beaten a lot of competitors in the control panel market.

At the time it was easy to jump from ensim since we didn't a ton of stuff with them. I agree that once our h s p c servers are in place it will be much harder to move from them in the future if we encounter problems.

I'm glad you're happy with the ensim product of vps. Everyone has their own opinions and that is what makes this a great place. I can't believe we are on the 4th page of a conversation here and no one flamed anyone else :D ...maybe a calmer and nicer future is ahead of us.

I have worked on Ensim VDS for about 8 months. I have also tested H S P.

It seems to me that Ensim has better isolation between Virtual Servers. It is very near to a dedicated server. It has better control over quotas (CPU, RAM, Network etc). If a VDS crashes or hangs up others are completely safe. While as I see H S P is not that much safe.

As someone told there isn't such guranteed minimum resources as it is in Ensim. I am always sure that I will get my 512M Ram on Ensim but it is not the case on H S P.

By the way from problems I have seen with different H S P providers It seems to me that Ensim is more stable.

I think Ensim is very expensive in comparison to H S P and this is H S P's benefit.

By the way I have seen that some people (VO, Pegasus, ...) run CPanel on ensim serverxchange so it is not just *** that can hold different control panels.

Its just my sense that Ensim more firm than H S P. :)

Mac

Hello Again,

I was doing some simple experiments on a newly created VPS this evening.

Actually I found server load things strange.

During about 30 minutes (please pay attention that this is a newly created VPS with no users and no activity) sometimes load went up to 0.7 without reason, sometimes 0. (I was not running anything just "uptime")

I tried to run different applications and see the results. Running setup and exiting it sometimes increased load up to 1.3 and sometimes to only 0.01 :eek:

This is why I can not trust this solution as an end user (I have never seen such things on Ensim). On Ensim I am sure that I have my guaranteed CPU and RAM share every time I login into my box.

I am not going to bash Virtuozzo, I just want to really find out if it is really more beneficial than Ensim. Can someone give some comments?

By the way I am surprised to see Matt on H S P side, I though he is an Ensim expert (I am sure he is :) ).

Regards,
Mac

Mac, my problem with ensim is that they want entirely to much money for their vps and their support is far from what is needed when spending the kind of money they want. Not to mention, their product is not, in my opinion anyway, cutting edge enough for the cost they want.

I think the main differences between h s p c and ensim serverxchange are that ensim only allows up to maybe 20 or at most 25 virtual servers where as h s p c allows for many more on the same machine. They are just constructed differently and seem to be targeting somewhat different markets.

If the future of shared web hosting is indeed the virtual server then h s p c's system would win out over ensims since it allows for more customers on one box while still giving them isolaton and security.

If the future of shared web hosting is indeed the virtual server then h s p c's system would win out over ensims since it allows for more customers on one box while still giving them isolaton and security.

I agree. I hope Ensim spends the time to release a VDS Lite version.


On Ensim I am sure that I have my guaranteed CPU and RAM share every time I login into my box.

This is true. This is one thing we can be sure of. We have seen it work time and time again.

I will say this. We did find something that will cause a VDS to bring down a physical server. Java. We had a heavy Tomcat guy. He zapped his resurces. Everytime we did a reboot on the VDS, the physical server went down. He moved to a dedicated server. Not a single physiacl server reboot in months.

Originally posted by UmBillyCord

I will say this. We did find something that will cause a VDS to bring down a physical server. Java. We had a heavy Tomcat guy. He zapped his resurces. Everytime we did a reboot on the VDS, the physical server went down. He moved to a dedicated server. Not a single physiacl server reboot in months.

Then It seems I have not understood Ensim technology very much. I thought it is theoretically impossible to harm others.

By the way what is your opinion about my simple tests? Do you think other Virtual Servers cay\use those loads? (It was not cron or something like that as I viewed process list everytime).

Mac

One thing I do know with ensim is that if you are low on physical memory you will have a lot of problems. I would assume the same would be true for any private server technology though.

Low memory = bad for VPS. Since a VPS doesn't really have any swap space, you are limited by physical available memory. I am not sure exactly how this is managed and is one area that I'd really like to get a better understanding.

TONS of memory is key for any VPS to be successful. Oddly, the lower end solutions (like FreeBSD's jail()) don't have this problem because the memory is shared among all services. VMWare doesn't have this problem because it can simulate swap space in the VM. Bottom line, buy lots of memory. It's cheap anyway!

Originally posted by wmac


Then It seems I have not understood Ensim technology very much. I thought it is theoretically impossible to harm others.

By the way what is your opinion about my simple tests? Do you think other Virtual Servers cay\use those loads? (It was not cron or something like that as I viewed process list everytime).

Mac

It should. But this is why I posted this. It seems somethings will cause VDS/Physical server issues. As pointed out latter, RAM is key. Many people who posted negatives about the Ensim VDSs just don't have enough RAM.

I think the actual issue was related to high resource use coupled with the reaching of max processes. We set a mimit for this to 256 for each VDS. He had huge JSP scripts. Sometimes they would max out his process limit and bring down his box. On reboot, it brought down the physical server. We opened a ticket with Ensim, but of course we did not want to bring down the physical server again (it takes forever to come back online), so we were happy having him move to a dedicated.


I actually am not sure about your test. This was not on Ensim right? Ensim will do simialr things. Once you load a VDS and WEBppliance, there are many things that run and spike. .7 isn't too bad. As we taked about earlier, H S P doesn't show the VDSs CPU and RAM. I think it shows system wide. The physical server will always be running some processes, so the .07 would certainly count for that.

This is not hearsay - had the system in place (at a previous job) and it provided nothing but headaches (seriously only 7 users on a system at one time. . .)

as far as I could tell, Ensim was a billing system, server technology and control panels GLUED together.

after installation and support, it was 3x the cost of the h sp complete system, although the price for that keeps getting creeping up on me and the response time is a little slow.

Looking for other who have the system to share thoughts/ideas with. . .I think there are a lot of us out there.

Hi.

I'm choosing between this products now.

Originally posted by wmac
While as I see H S P is not that much safe.


Could you post facts?


As someone told there isn't such guranteed minimum resources as it is in Ensim. I am always sure that I will get my 512M Ram on Ensim but it is not the case on H S P.


I believe virtuozzo CAN guarantee minimum of resources. Furthermore if there are some unused resources in your system VE can get them. Or I'm missing something?

I believe virtuozzo CAN guarantee minimum of resources. Furthermore if there are some unused resources in your system VE can get them. Or I'm missing something?This is correct.

I do believe that with h s p c you allot a minimum for each ve. So if someone has a ve running and needs to burt above their allotted memory they can. With ensim they can't. I see that as one of the greatest advantages to h s p c over ensim.

Originally posted by Everyday
I do believe that with h s p c you allot a minimum for each ve. So if someone has a ve running and needs to burt above their allotted memory they can. With ensim they can't. I see that as one of the greatest advantages to h s p c over ensim.

This depends on how you sell it. We would not want bursting on the RAM. RAM burst could cause a physical server to crash if it zaps it all? We like the fact that you can not burst. If someones VDS is using more then 128 RAM, then they need to upgrade.

Just a matter of preference. I see why H S P does it this way. Imagine if you had 200 VDSs with a piped amount of RAM. It wouldn't work.

Yeah I follow you. I guess the cool part is that h s p c lets you burst but it won't let someone overrun the server and kill others. Although the upgrade part is a good point.

Originally posted by Everyday
I do believe that with h s p c you allot a minimum for each ve. So if someone has a ve running and needs to burt above their allotted memory they can. With ensim they can't. I see that as one of the greatest advantages to h s p c over ensim.


It’s exactly what I’m talking about. In my opinion it’s better to have virtuozzo VE than ensim VPS from customers point of view.

1- If h s p can guarantee the minimum amount of RAM it will be great but how we can be sure that it has done this. TOP shows server wide RAM and perhaps CPU usage.

2- By the way are file systems completely isolated from each other or some files are on a single place, being used by everyone.

I think everyone must have his own partition and it should only copy template on each VPS? Am I right?

3- What about file quotas? I think they do not have user level quotas yet. If this is true then I am interested to know why it has been difficult to implement this?


Mac

Virtuozzo has user level file quotas.

Originally posted by wmac
1- If h s p can guarantee the minimum amount of RAM it will be great but how we can be sure that it has done this. TOP shows server wide RAM and perhaps CPU usage.

How we can be sure that ensim has done this?

I think everyone must have his own partition and it should only copy template on each VPS? Am I right?

Heh
Templates is very interesting feature but how does it work?
I really don't know. :rolleyes: May be someone can describe it?

3- What about file quotas? I think they do not have user level quotas yet.

I believe that KDAWebServices is right :D

Originally posted by KDAWebServices
Virtuozzo has user level file quotas. That version of Virtuozzo is not yet integrated with H S P Complete, unless you are beta testing it or something. The next release of H S P Complete will have that and quite a few other nice enhancements from what I gather.

Sorry, I'm a bit confused on the Virtuozzo pricing. Some people are saying $250 for the first VE and $50 for additional VEs and some others are saying $1.50 per MHz. On the website it says Virtuozzo is $2000. Which one is it?

for Virtuozzo with a $250 fee. . .(there's a gimmick for $3000 for something). . .

Today noticed some trouble handling larger applications - we were running a database inside a VE and it slowed it a bit.

Originally posted by wmac
Actually I found server load things strange.

During about 30 minutes (please pay attention that this is a newly created VPS with no users and no activity) sometimes load went up to 0.7 without reason, sometimes 0. (I was not running anything just "uptime")


Hey, Mac.
I do the same things today but I haven't seen this effect.
Could you repeat this situation.
Actually when you use uptime utility you see the average load. Do not forget it.
So it's better to use "top" utility.
Have you run uptime on hardware node or inside VE?
Was it recently installed virtuozzo system?
Again, I haven't seen this effect on my system.

Virtual Datacenter! Cool.
link here (http://www.thewhir.com/marketwatch/sws112602.cfm)
:agree:

No response...

That guy, wmac, is just flaming I do believe.

Originally posted by wmac

3- What about file quotas? I think they do not have user level quotas yet. If this is true then I am interested to know why it has been difficult to implement this?

h s p and virtuozzo are not on the same release - virtuozzo gets developed and then integrated with H S P. current virtuozzo has user level quotas, current version with h s p does not but they say they will be releasing it soon.

i don't know if user level quotas were difficult to implement or lower on priority list than, say, security and stability. so far virtuozzo is proving solid on both and the user-level quotas make it more like a server.

right now we are testing it with red hat 7.3, 7.2 and 7.1 VPSs on a single box. they say we'll be able to have Debian VPSs - that's pretty cool since we want to attract more technical customers.

Originally posted by goodW

Hey, Mac.
I do the same things today but I haven't seen this effect.
Could you repeat this situation.
Actually when you use uptime utility you see the average load. Do not forget it.
So it's better to use "top" utility.
Have you run uptime on hardware node or inside VE?
Was it recently installed virtuozzo system?
Again, I haven't seen this effect on my system.

- Uptime utility shows average load in last 1 minute in addition to last 15 minutes. So it is a good measure of loads on a server.

- Top itself creates a very high load (may be more than any other process) so I prefer not to use it and measure loads without its presense.

- You did not see the same effect because you was not on my VPS. Every VPS can have it's unique behaviours as many surrounding processes and details may effect it.

- I run uptime inside a single VPS.

And reply to your message which supposes me flaming ... I'd rather not to tell a word ...

Just another question.

Do we own a copy of apache and kernel files so that we can compile them if we need to customize them or there is a single copy of apache and we just run that?

I have had a complete and separate copy of OS on Ensim serverXchange so I am very sensitive about being completely independent. Although It may worth it to close your eyes if it has huge benefits over ensim.

I am not going to stick with either of them, I just want to distinguish positive and negative points to be able to decide case by case for each situation. I am sure that I will use H S P complete for many applications in future.


Mac

That reports, as always false information.

As I was helping developing some new modules for it, which you will see in the new realease, I am beta testing it.

They are the utilities which are in the /root/sv/ directory. One in specific called the tta utility.

The tta utility requires two timestamps of /proc/fairsched in file specified as its argument. The instant output can be shown by get_load.sh in sv directory (time interval=5sec).

tta output:
333-2 1253-1 2631-1 3333-4 5000-1 10000-1 - Running VEs weights'
distribution,
used_time - real CPU cycles between dates consumed by VE,
weight - VE weight in /proc fairsched,
cpuunits:
VE - VE's CPU units in VE.conf
RUN - VE's CPU units currently consuming by VE
TOT - promised VE CPU units(by value in VE.conf)
tasks - total tasks in VE
running - running tasks in VE
ttr - (time to run) estimation of upper value VE
CPU latency if current state lasts forever.

I am not saying much no more, as I might get fired :( I just couldn't stand those lame comments that think they know it ;)

-Brandon
Eryxma Networks Support

Originally posted by wmac
Just another question.

Do we own a copy of apache and kernel files so that we can compile them if we need to customize them or there is a single copy of apache and we just run that?

I have had a complete and separate copy of OS on Ensim serverXchange so I am very sensitive about being completely independent. Although It may worth it to close your eyes if it has huge benefits over ensim.

I am not going to stick with either of them, I just want to distinguish positive and negative points to be able to decide case by case for each situation. I am sure that I will use H S P complete for many applications in future.


Mac

Look, you can do ANYTHING inside a Virtuozo enviroment. Anything, but 2 things:

1) can't create mounts
2) Can't configure system hardware, like kernel upgrade, recompile, etc.

Anything else you desire, is possible, which is why we will be releasing V.2.5 ded servers, think about this:

1) Instant setup of your dedicated servers with whatever control panel you wish:

a) Ensim - Complete.
b) CPanel - Complete
c) Plesk - Complete
d) Confixx - Complete

Those are the templates I just finished, on RedHat 7.3

2) Reboots, web based reboots, no need to order an APC switch, why V2.5 can do it for you, just limit a whole server to a VE, and guarantee some CPU/MEMORY just enough for a web reboot to take place, no need to reboot the entire machine, it will always be up. VE reboots take 30 seconds average, dependent on the amount of units the quota is on.

3) There is a hardware issue, or you need an upgrade, for this you suffer a pain cause your server has to be down to be upgraded. Well not anymore, we hit the migrate buttong to another "upgraded" server for you, and your site will be up, in new server, hardware, etc, same IPs, etc, etc ,etc.

There is more, but we won't offer these services back again till Feb 2003. We currently are hosting 10 free clients to test our dedicated servers with this so far, and well it has saved alot :) A.L.O.T. :)

Though support wise it does get a bit puzzling.

-Brandon
Eryxma Networks Support

Brandon,

Thank you very much for your 2 recent messages. They helped very much. It really seems interesting.

I am going to experience things in action.

Regards,
Mac

Those are the templates I just finished, on RedHat 7.3

How did you run Ensim on RH 7.3 when they do not support 7.3?

You can install the base OS as 7.3, but then you can install the 7.2 RedHat Applications, once that was done, it seems to have taken care of it.

No conflicts was arised, but of coarse, alot of trial-n-error.

Ciao

-Brandon
Eryxma Networks Support

Hi wmac

Heh but it's interesting to see which process did this load.
Also it would be interesting to compare top outputs from VE and from hardware node.

How do this VE feeling now?

It was a test VE which I had from Brandon's company :) In fact it was a test account with eryxma.

I will get a CPanel VE with them to do more experience. If I find it successful I will put some working sites on them.

I think I am not ready to have my own virotouzzo server yet but I may buy a license later.

Mac

wmac I see. :)

HostInspect Thanks for information. It's very helpful.

HostInspect,

How dificult did you find it to create your own templates? I am interested in this, but have not yet taken the time to read up on it...

I'd be interested in this as well, about the templates that is.

I'd like to know any templating news, as well. Is there a special forum for H_spcomplete users? I haven't coem across any.

There is not much info I can say about *** Complete(Virtuozzo). I believe the pricing is a big mystery as is the topology. Having Experience with Ensim ServerXchange for almost 2 years, I can add some info on this system, and perhaps clear up some misconceptions.
1. Yes is is true ServerXchange is Extremely expensive(IMHO Way overpriced) with recurring monthly fees, and those fees go up even higher now if you want telephone support(As if SXchange Customers weren't paying enough already they went and made telephone support a higher fee). The high price is made even tougher to swallow by Ensims constant attempts at draining every penny out of their customers, including charging more for Windows Email packages, Support, etc..

2. I don't know what kind of servers these 10 VPS guys are using and how much RAM they are stuffing, but my configs (Dual 1gHz, 2 gigs RAM) 6-8 MAX VPS (You have to leave at least 20% of the resources of the server for "Bursting") before serious performance issues happen. Alot of applications require at least 256 megs of RAM to function properly, and besides why even have a VPS with only 128 megs ? I mean how useful is any server with 128 megs of RAM. So now lets do some math 8 VPS x 256megsRAM thats all of my 2 gigs of RAM....now Ensim recommends at least 10% of resources(More like 20%) be left Unallocated so that in case one server "Asks" for more resources they are there. So that equals, a server such as mine with 2 gigs RAM should have no more than 6 VPS with 256megs each. Those were guidelines I set forth to give my customers a decent product.
Now I guess if you have 4 gigs of RAM you can theoretically double these figures, but then you may run in to processor issues? Don't know about that but common sense would tell me that.

3. In my experiences only lately has Ensims VPSes supported other Control Panels (I.e Hsphere, Cpanel etc) The only one I know that is "Supported" is Plesk. I have heard of people putting Hsphere on a VPS but that creates all kindd of Support jurisdiction issues with both Hsphere and Ensim.

4. The Windows capabilities with Ensim SXchange are a plus, but now you have to pay extra for the Windows email...(Mo money Mo Money Mo Money)

5. Billing and automated sign up.....seriously anemic. Basically this part of the system sucks, buggy unstable and alot of the advertised features don't work properly....and again mo money mo money mo money.

6. The Ensim control panel is very stable, fast and is the strongest part of the system, but it can be very confusing for novices and can use a total make over. I have had to spend too much time supporting customers on the ergonomically challenged UI. Get away from the RAQ type interface. Their attempt at the Reskinning of the system that was recently introduced is so difficult, most of us are left frustrated.

I can go on and on, and most current owners of the system, that have used the system for over 6 months will agree on most of these issues.
I feel that for too long, Ensim's SXChange has been the only game in town, they were "Lazy" on satisfying feature requests and fixing issues. The fact that another "Player" or 2 are entering this market is great, maybe they will start feeling the heat of competition and shape up and stop gouging their existing customer base for more and more revenue and will find that revenue in new customers. I agree with a previous post that VPS/VDS technology will play an integral part in the future of hosting so hopefully we'll see more players and a higher caliber of product enter the marketplace.
I for one am very interested in *** and would love to learn more about it and perhaps implement it soon. Anyone with any good info on the topology an/or pricing info on the system please post or PM me.

Sorry for the length of the post....guess I went on a slight RANT....Hope someone finds this helpful...and remember these are all based on my own experiences with SXChange, so any newbie Xchange users or anyone that doesn't actually use it everyday....Please hold off on blasting me!

QUOTE]Originally posted by dawolf
There is not much info I can say about *** Complete(Virtuozzo). I believe the pricing is a big mystery as is the topology. Having Experience with Ensim ServerXchange for almost 2 years... <SNIP>[/QUOTE]

Come on. I find a lot of this ignorance, especially your arrogant response regarding use. My friend, we have been using it since 12/00. From reading your post, you need to hire someone to educate your sysadmin's. Sorry, but most this is way off base.

2. I don't know what kind of servers these 10 VPS guys are using and how much RAM they are stuffing, but my configs (Dual 1gHz, 2 gigs RAM) 6-8 MAX VPS

Ridiculous. We get a constant 15 - 20 on the same config! No trouble. Uptime on a physical is months. 6 -8 certainly shows your lack of experience or education with use and proper management.

Alot of applications require at least 256 megs of RAM to function properly, and besides why even have a VPS with only 128 megs

Ummmm.... 128 RAM with 3 GBs of space for $69.00??? If you need 256, buy a RS server. Sorry, what apps besides JSP require more then 128 RAM???? And if they do, then I guess someone should point out RS has full dedicated's for sale.....


In my experiences only lately has Ensim's VPSes supported other Control Panels (I.e Hsphere, Cpanel etc) The only one I know that is "Supported" is Plesk.

Again. Lack of knowledge. Yes, cPanel, hSpere and Plesk run fine. You missed the boat on this - big time. I know many host running HSpere on Ensim. cPanel works fine too, just not cost effective to run.

The Windows capabilities with Ensim SXchange are a plus, but now you have to pay extra for the Windows email...(Mo money Mo Money Mo Money)

Holy crap. You are saying Ensim's deal about $400 set up and $10.00/mo for software that runs $1500!; is BS? Give me a break!.

Do you thing paying $18.00/mo for a Windows Pro license is BS too? It would take 44 months to break even....

5. Billing and automated sign up.....seriously anemic. Basically this part of the system sucks, buggy unstable and alot of the advertised features don't work properly....and again mo money mo money mo money.

Agreed. But why use it??? Develop your own.

I can go on and on, and most current owners of the system, that have used the system for over 6 months will agree on most of these issues.

Way off base. Send me your URL. I would like to see the company you run. My guess is you have very little use. No offense.

The fact that another "Player" or 2 are entering this market is great,

Where have you been? There have been a few competitors to Ensim in regards to VDS technology for years.

Sorry, but as a long time user, I certainly disagree with your post. My opinion is you have very small use with Ensim. You do not understand how to manage these boxes. I see second hand comments that are way off base.

Yes, Ensim has issues. But what CP doesn't? If you think H S P is the end all, you are mistaken.

Umbilly,

I certainly did not want to turn this into a mudslinging pi$$ing match, but I'll have to start with an apology since you seem to take any negative feedback on Ensim a little too personally. So for that I am sorry.
Now for my retort.
You are very correct, compared to you, my Ensim must be nill. I hear this type of defense from some hardcore ensimmers who I believe must be on their Payroll.
Let me start by filling you in on my business model a bit. First of all we are an application service provider and we do alot of business with application developers, who use vpses as development boxes. One of our apps was (And I stress was)PlanetIntra groupware (We now host a very awesome cgi groupware product Share360). Some of the other apps developers are installing are jrun, tomcat, postgres and a few others. All of which require at least 256 megs to run efficiently. This is from hands on experience, and yes my friend from Ensim's very own recommendations thank you very much. We also do web hosting for our clients and partner companies. No we do not have 1000's of hosting accounts like you do.
Next we are not interested in Selling a VPS for $69/mo since the cost of the VPS alone is $50.00/mo.(This is Ensim's cut) I 'm sure you were able to work out a phenomenal deal with them since you are quite the Ensim Defender, so you can afford to do that. Our Support for our clients is strictly telephone support and we have very few, but lucrative clients (Pfizer/Pharmacia, Schering Plough, Johnson and Johnson, and probably 4 fortune 100 companies, and a dozen or so Fortune 500 companies) Most of these relationships are through Third party "Affiliate" consulting firms. We have not gotten a single account via the web or web advertising, all through our account executives and our current client base.
Yes most of these clients can afford a dedicated from RS, but they made the choice to go with VPS because they can get 4 Private Servers for less than the cost of 1 Dedicated and because we are already current approved vendors and therefore they don't have to go through the red tape.
We also are Validating and testing several different shared hosting systems for possibly going after shared hosting. We realize that this is a very competitive market and we have dedicated this whole time to the Validation Efforts.
We are Validation Experts, (We are a consulting firm first and provide Validation Services to Pharmecutical and Government regulated companies) which qualifies us to make the assessments, perhaps more than a Hosting company.
I would also like to add that most importantly, we bought the Ensim system because it was a cross platform system that was as easy to use and start on as 123.....not to have to "hack" and spend as much time finding bugs and "educate" our Admins. When we originally decided on it the deciding factor was that they had Telephone Support included in the already hefty price tag....well as an Ensim SXChange customer know what happened to that.
We were also specifically told that "No support, for any other control panels would be given, I did not say other control panels wouldn't work, I said no support. We as a policy and SOP do not use any application in an unsupported form.

I never claimed that *** was the end all solution, as a matter of fact I opened my last post by saying I do not know much about it. As far as other VDS technologies being around for years, this is correct, but none that had the Top level control over Physicals and Virtuals and Application management etc...Not that I know of Anyway.

So Umb, if you want to sling mud and take all of this personally, I'm sorry once again but Ensim fell very short of our expectations in both performance issues and as a "partner" We are looking forward to hearing good stuff about H_S_P, we're ready to give them a shot .

And by the way congratulations for taking Ensim to the heights you have, and I honestly wish you only the best of luck in your hosting endeavors as I do for all of our fellow Hosting peers....its a great business with a bright future, I hope to meet you at the top someday.

Peace

I certainly did not want to turn this into a mudslinging pi$$ing match, but I'll have to start with an apology since you seem to take any negative feedback on Ensim a little too personally. So for that I am sorry.

This is why you do not post when you are drunk. PWI's (Posting While Intoxicated) should be banned. :) I should have just went to bed.

I do take a lot of post about Ensim negativally because 99% of all complaints are directly related to inexperience at some RS user who never should be managing a server in the first place. They come here and flame Ensim for their lack of skill. I thought that is what your post was. I certainly see it was not such. Sorry. :)

I certainly agree Ensim has issues. Some of them being longevity in terms of financials. But overall, I see the value. I also appreciate their support them have given our company. Including some stupid screw ups that were our fault.

Some of the points you brough up are very valid. But the number of VDSs and the fact you can run HShere, cPanel, etc.. on the VDS were incorrect. I certainly would not expect Ensim to support other CPs intigration. That is not an Ensim issue.

Good points. Sorry for the assault. And no I do not work for Ensim. :)

Hey Umbilly, no probs. I respect your knowledge and loyalty to the product I once believed was the "End All" Solution, (just check out some of my past posts, http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24467&perpage=15&pagenumber=2 This thread may look familiar to you, and I posted during "Ensim Bliss" Even you would have been proud) Anyway, I will be certain to post my opinions on H_S_P when I learn more about it and who knows, maybe this system can't even hold a candle to the Mighty Ensim, but maybe it rocks!....I am hoping for the latter.....
:D ......I'm gonna go have a drink dude......here's to ya!

Word