I do realise that a lot of people would be cutting their own leggs from under them by answering this question, but I'll ask anyway.

There are hundreds (maybe even thousands) of wen hosts out there ... most of them look like they were made from the samle template, same look / feel .. similar prices and products and similar kind of service ( don't shoot me for that last one ).

Now it is impossible for everyone out there to have a DC, even if it's in your wife's/mother's pantry. So a lot of people do resell, just some are better at hiding it then others, so let's not make that a topic of discussion.

My question is what would the percentage of resellers to DC owners be. I mean what are the chances that if I host with host X he is actually 6 layers down the line from the real DC.

Also with support, the really lazy guys just forwrd client queries to the tech guys from their reseller provider, but that luckily does not happen too often.

Is the hosting industry heading towards a big pyramid scheme or is it still mostly genuine companies with their own hardware / tech support.

In replying could you also state if you resell or have a DC .... (somehow I doubt I'll get a lot of these )

Well, there is a level between Reseller and DC. That is web hosts like many on this board who lease or colo servers with a DC. We could be said to resell for a DC but it's not particularly accurate. :)

So in answer to your question, we neither resell or own a DC. We lease and administer 8 servers at a data facility called RackSpace in Texas. There are about 5-10 members here that have their own DC, though. I would say the majority of hosts on this board are in the same position as HostNexus.

Ok, well let me maybe clear up my definition of reseller, which is obviously wrong, or at least too broad.

What I was refering to reseller is anybody from a guy who buys a virtual site and then cuts it up into subdirectories and sells each one off with a subdomain ... right through to someone like rackshack where you get your own box ....

The thing is that in both cases if either the small guy goes down or rackshack goes down ... there is very little you can do.
(sorry rackshack - 1st name to come to mind)

In both cases you can only tell your customers to wait while you are fixing the problem.

I do however agree that you have much more control on a leased/colocated/dedicated server then a simple reseller account.

so your definition of owning a DC includes people who lease space within someone else facility and own their own equipment, or only people who own the facility their equipment resides in?

Ok,

Unfortunatelly I think I confused the issue with incorrect definitions.

1) DC - You own the DC and have your own technical staff to administer it. You have physical access to the servers and all other relevant hardware. The connections from the internet go directly into your DC building.

2) Everyone else.
- You share a server.
- You lease server and buy bandwith.
- You lease server space, use own server and buy bandwith.
- You lease a managed server.
and any other combination that is not covered in #1 above.


So the question is do you the host fall into category 1 or 2 and how many people on the whole would fall into category one and how many in two.

The reason I make this distinction is that you unless you are at the DC, you can not make any solid guarantees on the service you provide. Since even with Managed Servers and Co-Locations there is a third-party involved.

And to preempt this point, I do realise that people with DCs are not exempt from problems, but their guarantees carry a lot more weight behind them.

PS: Just a quick addition .. by 'own the DC' I also mean that you can rent the building or office space so that is not the issue.

I still have a problem with your definitions. You can't lump together the people who lease space off a host and the host that leases a server from a data facility. But anyway, that isn't what you were asking...what were you asking again?

Well by that reasoning isn't the guy that owns the data center but leases lines from a provider like internap or cognet or whomever a reseller? That is a 3rd party he has no control over as evidenced by the recent problems with FDC servers who have their own DC but lost their connection?

So in that case I would guess (and I am sure someone will correct me) there are about 50, if that, host that would fit your description of a non reseller in the world.

Ok guys ... it looks like this will be an academic issue ... so I think I will settle with there being a few Data Centers and everybody else at some levels buys services from them ...

Greetings:

“Now it is impossible for everyone out there to have a DC, even if it's in your wife's/mother's pantry. So a lot of people do resell, just some are better at hiding it then others, so let's not make that a topic of discussion.”

There are two hosting businesses in our county that operate out of a residential house. Both offer ISP dial up services, and both have high speed connectivity.

I would not call their “data center” (DC) “world class,” but they are data centers none the less.

With that stated, our parent company looked at what it would take to build a state-of-the-art, “World Class,” data center. We contracted a well know architect firm to come up with a model that would could then had to a builder to start construction.

The investment, not including equipment or people, would run between one million and two million U.S. dollars. Based on the information from a Web hosting exposition last year, I’m told that state-of-the-art facilities average $600 per square foot to build; and $300 per square foot to operate.

Our parent company started in the industry in 1996 reselling. In 1998 they had enough accounts to start renting (dedicated) servers. In Q3 of this year they had enough servers to rent rack space at a state-of-the-art-facility, and start purchasing servers through a buyers program with HP (Compaq DL360 G2’s are awesome machines).

“Also with support, the really lazy guys just forward client queries to the tech guys from their reseller provider, but that luckily does not happen too often.

Is the hosting industry heading towards a big pyramid scheme or is it still mostly genuine companies with their own hardware / tech support.”

Reselling has gotten a black eye, and has had one since the early years (going as far back as 1996 if not further back).

Our parent company has always prided itself on having in-house system / server administrators (skilled at FreeBSD, Linux, Sun Solaris, and Windows) and in-house technical support.

So even when our parent company was a “pure” reseller from the stand point of not having their own servers (rented or purchased), they were still able to provide on-the-spot technical support over the phone or via email (there were even times when local clients stopped in <smile>).

However, there are a number of companies who outsource their technical support (which is not always a bad thing as companies like BobCares has a decent reputation).

And there are companies, as you mention, who will put their technical support on the shoulders of their up stream providers who themselves may be reselling who themselves may put the technical support requests to their up stream provider and so on.
I do believe that in order to be a successful Internet service provider, you need to be as close to the sources of the services you are providing. This means the best case is that you rent or own your servers (have super-user / root / administrator access), that you have your own support staff including system / server administrators, and that you know enough to set up and maintain the proper infrastructure.

When that cannot be done, then utilize a company like BobCares and rely on a direct relationship with a provider who actually owns the equipment; or, use some combination there of.

I don’t believe those companies who cannot add value to their customers in terms of support and service (i.e. send the requests up the chain) have a long term chance to survive.

Thank you.

There are lots of layers, as in an any industry. Web hosting is one, running a data center is another, owning a carrier "hotel", being a data carrier, etc. etc. Even carriers buy and resell transit from other carriers. Most companies don't -- and cannot -- do it all. To put it simply, it is not a pyramid but a supply chain.

Originally posted by HingyGuy
1) DC - You own the DC and have your own technical staff to administer it. You have physical access to the servers and all other relevant hardware. The connections from the internet go directly into your DC building.


We have our own cabinet inside Internap's datacenter, having connectivity directly from Internap. We get a direct 2x100 Mbps from Internap's core router. We do not rely on remote hands/eye to do things, we have 24/7/365 physical access to our own servers/equipments and we do everything ourselves. But we do not own the datacenter (Internap's) and we won't say we own a datacenter. But if you think this is a definition for owning a DC, then I guess we do own a DC! :)