I'm gonna go get a badge from a gumball machine. One for Limited too, he/she is much better at this.

ROTFLMAO


Again, if the building/DC has 24/7 video recording capabilities which I am sure they do. Mr. Faulkner/Simpson does not have root access to their servers, what would lead you or anyone to believe that data may reside on machines not owned by them in the DC.

Keyloggers lol...People can hack md5 hashes and or get into locked machines, and it's probably not a stretch to think that through to a logical conclusion. Maybe that is what they were thinking about, and maybe looked at it and said, oh well, better get it all just in case. Especially if any were managed, meaning management had access to boxes here and there. I am sure not everyone of them were encrypted 256 AES. But your points are very well made. And thank you for the larger company list. As I said it's a hard day for many people.


Something like Gestapo rules again ...

Depends on your point of view. I don't really think that was fair to say of Agent Lynd. The man did his job, fraudster or criminal, you have to tip your hat to the better man. Calling him or his job or the people he works for Gestapo, Nazi's etc, well, it just panders to a lower intelligence level, and I don't really want to go there with you or anyone else. Politics aside, this is a clear cut case of fraud on a massive scale. Probably a number of agents and or security people passed on it for a long time. Agent Lynd made many good calls, spent a huge amount of his time making his case, and in my opinion he did a great job.

Anyone that calls that Gestapo tactics, well, I don't really think they are on the side of honesty or maybe on the side of the people who are in that field, I don't know, that is a bold statement for me to make and probably not fair to you. But I think calling it Gestapo tactics is taking that to a twilight zone dimension. Again though, it is your choice of words not mine. I stand by mine.


Perhaps you can contact the agent and his department and ask him for yourself. Because, based on the filing it certainly seems at least according to Liquid Motors who "believes their companies fourth ammendment was violated",and sued both the Agent and United States.

Just my opinion here, but I think we will eventually get over this feeling that our rights are violated based upon a constitution that truly has not been followed in a very long time on certain points. The nature of the world and globalization is that new rights are given while new rules are written. And for the last 8 years or so at least new rules have been written and come into effect. It is a fact that the USA is a world policeman. They do in fact try or attempt to police the world based upon rules they write. Many of these so called new rules (in cybercrime at least) are written with a heavy hand. But it is because it has to be that way. There is a larger picture.

In the cybercrime world, fraud has been unleashed on the globe with a fury. Law Enforcement and other soup letters are all into the mix now because of how vulnerable everyone is due to its staggering nature. Just an example below,

Everything we do is monitored in some fashion or form, whether by cam, online, or other methods.

Everything we say on the net is cached.

Everyone we call is recorded or registered on a database.

Everything we buy is stored in a database.

Every transaction we make is placed into the same database.

13 Fusion Centers around the Nation cull data from all corners of the digital realm of which you and I are a part of, and participate in on a daily basis.

And it goes much deeper. Sort of a Blade Runner world in my opinion, but not exactly. It was said then if you are not police, you are little people.

I think today that analogy is proving more and more correct. The power they have has become "unlimited." This is spreading worldwide. That type of power, we as a people just cannot breach. We can question it, but we just can't do anything about it. We can stand up and shout about "our" rights being violated, but there is truly nothing that can be done, individually or as a group, when the powers that be decide to focus on you or me.

Sounds defeatist I know. But that is not to say the end is here, it isn't. It's just the way it is. Best to just get used to it and hope that those in power do not become totally corrupted by it. Some will, some won't. Some have a higher calling, some don't. We are all human, and humanity can be a cruel master if we allow it to be.

Agent Lynd came from a school where high ideals and great morals are instilled and taught. This speaks volumes about his character. His service or duty to his country as part of the AirCav also speaks volumes about self sacrifice and a call to duty. Mix the two schools together and you have a guy who is probably way beyond the normal agent. Guys like him are rare in the FBI. I can tell you that is a fact.

Just my opinions of course. YMMV.


It doesn't matter if they are a fortune 500 of 50 company, they still have customers, employees, vendors, ect to work with and pay. And judging by your chosen name 'what is a colo',

I think you may have me mixed up when quoting me with whats a colo? But that is fine. He seems like a nice guy. He likes bubblegum and kicking ass lol..

Anyway, this is an interesting case and a great thread. I think I have pretty much exhausted everyone with the things I have said, so I will probably take a back seat for awhile and just see how it all comes out. I am sure within weeks or less we will see the arrest or indictment and have a new round of discussions, while the rest of the case will probably work itself out in the years to come. I thank everyone of you for reading my long posts, and hope that I have not been a dreadful bore. Great bunch of people here by the way..



Many thanks..

Agent Lynd came from a school where high ideals and great morals are instilled and taught. This speaks volumes about his character. His service or duty to his country as part of the AirCav also speaks volumes about self sacrifice and a call to duty. Mix the two schools together and you have a guy who is probably way beyond the normal agent. Guys like him are rare in the FBI. I can tell you that is a fact.


Air Cav guys put on pants just like everybody else, a good soldier is after all human and subject to flaws because of that fact especially a West Pointer. So while I don't know Mr Lynd personally I'll hold off judgement on this case till it's done.

RLTW...

Wow this thread is disgusting, where are WHT staff?

Lets get back to the point - DC raided - businesses offline - profits lost.

Politics, negativity - what does this have to do with anything? Get real and grow up kids who argue.

my 2c on this pathetic thread.

ROTFLMAO

Keyloggers lol...People can hack md5 hashes and or get into locked machines, and it's probably not a stretch to think that through to a logical conclusion. Maybe that is what they were thinking about, and maybe looked at it and said, oh well, better get it all just in case. Especially if any were managed, meaning management had access to boxes here and there. I am sure not everyone of them were encrypted 256 AES. But your points are very well made. And thank you for the larger company list. As I said it's a hard day for many people.

Sure, there are a couple other ways that I am aware of to get into locked machines, and based on court documents the boxes were NOT managed. I am not saying that the search should not have been carried out, but knowing him/his department had limited resources (only 8 men, not even close to enough hard-drives to replicate the amount of data that was seized), some care should have been taken before he went in. Simply taking out hundred of legitmate businesses servers, was overkill with the information we know up until this point, I am sorry. Not to mention that in the process of doing so and carting off these systems, they may have lost valuable data, and damaged these companies delicate equipment. If you have ever moved any servers or datacenter's you will know that equipment sometimes breaks between moves, especially if the move was performed in haste. Again, this is a man who grew up with computers, his father presumably (again based on his post) sold Digital Equipment Corporation (PDP-11's). These were huge math coprocessor machines, with punch-cards, and giant tape reels. So he should have been aware of the implications of taking down hundreds of machines and the response he was going to get from the many legitimate business owners, lawyers, and the news media.


Depends on your point of view. I don't really think that was fair to say of Agent Lynd. The man did his job, fraudster or criminal, you have to tip your hat to the better man... Probably a number of agents and or security people passed on it for a long time. Agent Lynd made many good calls, spent a huge amount of his time making his case, and in my opinion he did a great job.

While this was not directed at me, I think I will address one issue that has been troubling me. His department, along with the agent that assisted him: uncovered, documented and obtained enough evidence of fraud to charge the parties. He had confirmed TelX wanted to evict at least Mr. Faulkners company, and I am sure if time permited, TelX (if concerned) would have begun to work with its attorneys to file paperwork to have them removed. So why NOT execute a warrant on Mr. Faulkners & Core Ip's equipment & residences, and go from there. Even if they came up with nothing, they could charge the individuals with fraud (what AT&T/Verizon called on them to investigate), seize their assets and move on.

I'll give you a real life example, when I was at AT&T I had at least one client that was a slow payer and owned the company $20,000. I also knew, and had spoken to Mr. Lynd on numerous occasions during that period of time. And I didn't call him, or the local FBI field office to investigate.
As a news bite I found this story interesting: By Houston News reporter Craig Malisow
http://www.houstonpress.com/2003-05-08/news/reality-bytes/2
"Allyn Lynd fielded the first call in late 1998: Administrators in the Dallas County Community College District were baffled over an $18,500 teleconference bill that had come out of nowhere. 32-year-old West Point grad, Lynd was a determined up-and-comer, a guy who left the army on a Friday and joined the FBI the following Monday. When the bureau's Dallas office wanted computer-savvy agents for its new Cyber Squad, Lynd was one of the first volunteers. He hadn't joined the squad to combat high phone bills, but the college administrators were adamant. Assistant U.S. Attorney Matt Yarbrough was also hesitant to get involved -- the feds usually don't bother with anything under $25,000. But since it was a public school, Yarbrough figured he and the bureau should check it out." What they uncovered was a group of hackers, and phone “phreakers”, who invaded the schools telephone network to collaborate on hacking and other nefarious interests the group had. "Yarbrough and Lynd also discovered that Global Hell had a Web site where members bragged about their exploits." "Lynd, the West Point graduate, and Gregory, a C.E. King High dropout, were both self-taught computer experts. Growing up in Southern California, Lynd's father sold computers, and one day he brought home a steel-console Wang -- a founding forefather that looked like a cross between an IBM Selectric and a washing machine, with all the powers of a solar-powered calculator. Ever the technological pioneers, the Lynds later invested in an Apple II when Allyn was 13, paving the way to his future fighting cybercriminals."


Just my opinion here, but I think we will eventually get over this feeling that our rights are violated based upon a constitution that truly has not been followed in a very long time on certain points. The nature of the world and globalization is that new rights are given while new rules are written. And for the last 8 years or so at least new rules have been written and come into effect. It is a fact that the USA is a world policeman. They do in fact try or attempt to police the world based upon rules they write. Many of these so called new rules (in cybercrime at least) are written with a heavy hand. But it is because it has to be that way. There is a larger picture.

There is something the framers of our constitution and many court systems have upheld, called the fourth amendment. Basically stated it along with two federal statues, establishes cause in federal court against unwarranted and unlawful searches and seizures. This was the merit that Liquid Motors and others are contending and legitimately concerned about. I would cite Raphael Winick 1994 Harvard Journal of Law response of searches and seizure of computer data.

http://jolt.law.harvard.edu/articles/pdf/v08/08HarvJLTech075.pdf . So No this is NOT something that people are just going to “get over” as you put it. There are serious implications of these raids. Already we have business owners on these forums that are looking at potentially relocating there servers outside of Texas and in some cases outside of the US. I think you would share a much different viewpoint if you had ownership in any type of Datacenter, ISP or provided client support for lawyers, doctors, or anyone else entrusted to maintain client confidentiality.



Agent Lynd came from a school where high ideals and great morals are instilled and taught. This speaks volumes about his character. His service or duty to his country as part of the AirCav also speaks volumes about self sacrifice and a call to duty. Mix the two schools together and you have a guy who is probably way beyond the normal agent. Guys like him are rare in the FBI. I can tell you that is a fact.


Actually in the FBI's screening process, part of their selection process; favors individuals with military, law enforcement or persons with law degrees (for the points you have just addressed). Simply put, there are many fine men/women that choose to serve their country and work for the FBI.

I'm pretty much a full-fledged internet detective. I'm gonna go get a badge from a gumball machine. One for Limited too, he/she is much better at this.


That is great, perhaps you should type up all the evidence you have obtained into a report, and email it over to Mr. Lynd or his partner. His email address is somewhere on this forum, or you can call down to the Dallas FBI and they can put you in touch with someone. It clearly seems as though you have gathered some very factual evidence. Again, this is open to interpretation: as you can see I prefer dealing with "solid facts," court and regulatory documents and other instruments that have some weight.

Please do not get me wrong, some evidence such as his posts on his own blog can be very instrumental in piecing together a case, but need to be weighed carefully. For example, in the original warrant online posts were brought up regarding illegal pirated material, I have viewed Mr. Faulkner’s website and it appears as though some of the material he was linking to. Which again presents legal issues, because it is a gray area of the law if you say I do not have the files on my server ‘but if you go to Fred’s computer over there you can download them.’ Which is one reason why many hosting providers in their terms of service, prohibit pirated material or sites that link to pirated material, such as Mr. Faulkner’s new host Mochahost.com

Now if you really wanted to go a step beyond what you have done up until this point, you may try confirming some of these facts with the businesses that were affected. Generally speaking, if you present yourself as a citizen doing research, on the potential fraud, for a report you are writing or to provide to law enforcement. I would venture to guess the individuals who were defrauded, will be more than willing to speak with you, since they want the conspirators caught.

Wow this thread is disgusting, where are WHT staff?

Lets get back to the point - DC raided - businesses offline - profits lost.

Politics, negativity - what does this have to do with anything? Get real and grow up kids who argue.

my 2c on this pathetic thread.

No I second that! I have tried to provide as much factual information in this thread. As it is a matter that is of some importance and concern. I would hope that a moderator would go though and attempt to clean up this jumple of facts. We have 3 homes or 1. Banal name calling and interpretations of peoples actions toward different entities. Sure the fact that Mr. Faulkner is going through 14 proxies is something of interest, but seeing how his entire business was shutdown, customers servers were stolen, and assets frozen. From a legal standpoint I don't think he is going to want to spend his days down at FBI HQ asking questions.

Please for the love of god, please stick with credible facts and reference where they came from. This whole topic lately has become one giant compiled wikipedia entry as of late.

That is great, perhaps you should type up all the evidence you have obtained into a report, and email it over to Mr. Lynd or his partner. His email address is somewhere on this forum, or you can call down to the Dallas FBI and they can put you in touch with someone. It clearly seems as though you have gathered some very factual evidence. Again, this is open to interpretation: as you can see I prefer dealing with "solid facts," court and regulatory documents and other instruments that have some weight.

Please do not get me wrong, some evidence such as his posts on his own blog can be very instrumental in piecing together a case, but need to be weighed carefully. For example, in the original warrant online posts were brought up regarding illegal pirated material, I have viewed Mr. Faulkner’s website and it appears as though some of the material he was linking to. Which again presents legal issues, because it is a gray area of the law if you say I do not have the files on my server ‘but if you go to Fred’s computer over there you can download them.’ Which is one reason why many hosting providers in their terms of service, prohibit pirated material or sites that link to pirated material, such as Mr. Faulkner’s new host Mochahost.com

Now if you really wanted to go a step beyond what you have done up until this point, you may try confirming some of these facts with the businesses that were affected. Generally speaking, if you present yourself as a citizen doing research, on the potential fraud, for a report you are writing or to provide to law enforcement. I would venture to guess the individuals who were defrauded, will be more than willing to speak with you, since they want the conspirators caught.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/self-deprecation?qsrc=2888
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/absurdity?qsrc=2888
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm?qsrc=2888

But you knew that already, right?

No I second that! I have tried to provide as much factual information in this thread. As it is a matter that is of some importance and concern. I would hope that a moderator would go though and attempt to clean up this jumple of facts. We have 3 homes or 1. Banal name calling and interpretations of peoples actions toward different entities. Sure the fact that Mr. Faulkner is going through 14 proxies is something of interest, but seeing how his entire business was shutdown, customers servers were stolen, and assets frozen. From a legal standpoint I don't think he is going to want to spend his days down at FBI HQ asking questions.

Please for the love of god, please stick with credible facts and reference where they came from. This whole topic lately has become one giant compiled wikipedia entry as of late.

The only jumble of facts are Faulkner's own words, everything else being discussed (or "argued" about as the Kiwi calls it [serious Kiwi is serious]) are credible facts.

No this is NOT something that people are just going to “get over” as you put it. There are serious implications of these raids.

What can I say? You have your world, I have mine. You see through rose colored glasses, I see through dark glasses. Serious implications? The world changed, it got worse. There is no stepping back. There is no rescue plan to bring us back from the brink. There is no change we can believe in. Yes, I fell for that too.

Maybe we all did.

Do I wish I could turn back the clock towards a friendlier time, a safer time, a better time, when we all trusted one another, left our doors open or unlocked at night? Sure I do. But it probably will never happen. Power once gained, is never easily given back. Technology is partly to blame, the other part of that blame goes to the people who serve that technology master.

We are slaves to it, believe it or not, we are. It has an enormous ability to take from us the things our fathers fought for, freedom. Corruption is ever present in every system it has overtaken. It's an evil that seemingly has no end.

Rights? An illusion. Security? Another illusion. We partake in that illusion to make us feel safe at night, and give us hope each day we see the sun. But it is an illusion. We are not safe, and probably never have been. Fear is the guide that keeps the blood of technology flowing. You know it and I know it. We scream at times for rights we lost long ago due to a technology that we allowed to control us.

My opinion of course. Do I agree with the changes that have happened in the last 8 years? No. But I have accepted it as a way of life. Nothing is certain, nothing is guaranteed.


I have tried to provide as much factual information in this thread. As it is a matter that is of some importance and concern. I would hope that a moderator would go though and attempt to clean up this jumple of facts.

What jumble of facts do you wish to erase? I think the last few pages have been the best facts presented to date, with only a slight bit of discussion going on about motives from a few different points of view. If you need a moderator to come in and clean, then the entire thread, and with it all the views will have been for nothing.

It is often when good threads such as this, where so many have offered input get cleaned or pruned, which throws out the reason people spent time in it. Deletion or pruning of interesting threads such as this would be reason enough to never come back here and comment on anything of interest again. All one would then fear is that the thread just as it became worthwhile would be pruned or removed, leaving scant few posts to explain what really went on, and what people went through and devoted time to.

My opinion of course.


It clearly seems as though you have gathered some very factual evidence. Again, this is open to interpretation:

This is the second time you seem to be directing your thoughts at me, but using someone else's quotes. Or maybe you are now directing your quote at the other person, whats a colo? It would be nice to know who you were referring to on this quote above?


as you can see I prefer dealing with "solid facts,

Yes, but you are asking for facts as if we have an indictment at hand and a closed case. Most of this research was done based upon,

1. Logs from Faulkner in his own voice.

2. The affidavit.

3. Posts from various news organizations.

4. Posts from comments here and around the net concerning this case and other people's thoughts on it.

I would say that as a rule, many people here posted direct facts of everything they gathered. Your need for court case facts will not happen until they are up on pacer and you can read them. Until then, all we have is what we see, read, touch or feel.

So far, based on that alone, this thread has 256 posts, and 12960 views.

I would say it is one of the hotter threads going on this forum. And you wish to delete, prune or get a moderator in to in effect delete or remove posts you don't like to suit your needs for the facts, and only the facts, which in my view in at least the last 3 pages have been about as good as it can get. When I started this morning the page views were at 9000 give or take, now at 12960 in one day. Not a bad view count. Why ruin it with post deletions thus burying material facts that may have been presented but removed because you might not like it?

Of course I am going overboard in trying to answer your questions or respond to your post which I find extremely enlightening.

But if your posts were pruned here and there I would not then follow what you were saying all along.


Please for the love of god, please stick with credible facts and reference where they came from.

I have done my level best to show relevant links or where the posts or quotes came from in every post I have made. So I don't not know whom you are referring to. Maybe because you can't get your legal supreme court questions answered, you feel that this thread is not worth it, but I beg to differ with you and agree to disagree with you on it :)



Which is one reason why many hosting providers in their terms of service, prohibit pirated material or sites that link to pirated material, such as Mr. Faulkner’s new host Mochahost.com

Well, I think that most TOS and AUP agreements are never followed, and hosting companies have almost to a tee refused to truly violate and terminate based on linkages. Hell you can find true fraud ongoing on the net at major hosting providers, up to and including XO communications, AT&T and other sites such as Theplanet and the list goes on and on. Plus, in the UK, you can find even more.

To me, TOS and AUP violations are there for nothing. They are used in cases where LE or some disgruntled net junkie will go out and actually demand to have a sight removed, and the hosting company can use it as a legal basis to terminate a site, but they hardly ever do. The public can do it, but often it's a trial and error procedure and a huge time waster. Close a site up and you lose valuable information, often they will just re-open and be back up in one day, or as much time as it takes to propagate the new server IP. So it's virtually worthless. And this doesn't even mention rooted boxes that are out there for the asking to host on.



you may try confirming some of these facts with the businesses that were affected.


Up until your last few posts where you named companies, no one knew exactly who these companies were other than two or three that were mentioned in the press. Plus, not many that are legit will talk to anyone for fear it will get out and ruin them even more by disclosing confidential data to an unknown person. Anyone can say they are researching, even criminals, and they often do say this as a social engineering point of entry. Anyone disclosing any information could end up losing more than if they just said nothing and deferred those calls to the receptionist.

Your either too trusting and feel others will be the same or just don't know the evil that men do to make money :)

No reflection on you at all by the way. I find each post you make a worthwhile read.


Air Cav guys put on pants just like everybody else, a good soldier is after all human and subject to flaws because of that fact especially a West Pointer.

I think I mentioned that we are all human. I also think I mentioned that those were my opinions only. I wasn't brown nosing him or going up his trouser legs even though it may have appeared that way.

Thank you..

So it looks like I may have been responsible for Mr. Faulkner moving hosting providers. It now appears as though he is coming out of Latin America according to ARIN (American Registry of Internet Numbers), specifically out of Panama. My apologies Mr. Faulkner, that you could not host your illegal pirated material on your US host. If you like, you could send a complaint letter to one of my Alma matters University of Illinois (illinois.edu), the same people that also developed the Netscape browser.

PS: Since you were very kind as to take words out of context of Mr. Lynd's, post conference follow-up with Microsoft. I have also alerted our friends over at MS, and I am sure they will be looking at filing civil charges against you should it be found you were engaged in pirating material.

Thanks again for taking your forum outside of the US, and not causing the 600 or so companies that were on the same box from being taken down.

It looks like Mr. Faulkner is on the move again...

http://aesirnetworks.com
Aesir Networks is the Enterprise Hosting division of the Union Datacom Corporation family of companies. [aquired October 1, 2004] Aesir Networks specializes in Managed eCommerce applications, and ColdFusion Hosting, with specialist on staff to support not only ColdFusion, but JSP, ASP, PHP, Perl, and other application languages.

The Union Datacom Corporation is one of the fastest growing companies in the industry. All hosting services are provided from fully manned Union Datacom Data Centers located in Dallas, Texas.

We are not a collocation based provider (we do not lease rack space or servers)

We are a facility based provider (we own the data center)

We do not use TDM Based Uplinks (no T1s, No T3s, No OC-3s), we are all fiber.

We have multiple Gigabit Speed (1000/Mbs) Uplinks to Fiber Backbones

We do not Oversell, or Stack sites on our servers

Each of our servers runs at less than 50% utilization

-------------------
It should be noted that again this network provider which resolves to vlan61.sw1-e3.denver2.wehostwebsites.com

Has a strict policy against

WeHostWebSites.Com
393 Inverness Parkway
Englewood, Colorado 80112
Fax: 1-888-300-2329 or 303-414-6913
abuse@wehostwebsites.com

"Hacking / Cracking related sites or software
Warez Materials " "Links to any above materials"

We do not use TDM Based Uplinks (no T1s, No T3s, No OC-3s), we are all fiber.


Um... what? That right there worries me. What does transmission medium have to do with line multiplexing? All SONET links use TDM, and obviously all SONET links use fiber... I think he's just looking for a fancy way to say "Ethernet-only".

Besides, why the hell does lack of TDM make a network special or in any way more reliable?

Maybe he's dumber than we originally thought.

As many of you have pointed out the warrant and the case is absolutely stunning. I am sure that many of you are trying to piece together all of the pieces, news reports, facts by Mr. Faulkner, and evidence gathered by the Dallas FBI cyber crime squad.

As such, I have gathered all of the court documents and many of the reports, including the full amended complaint filed by Liquid Motors. Liquid Motors was the first company that had filed legal proceedings in the case of Liquid Motors, LLC v Allyn Lynd / USA. Claiming that the company’s, fourth amendment rights (pertaining to against reasonable searches & seizures) have been violated. You can view all case material at

** http://www.securityfocus.tv/dallascolo/ **

Um... what? That right there worries me. What does transmission medium have to do with line multiplexing? All SONET links use TDM, and obviously all SONET links use fiber... I think he's just looking for a fancy way to say "Ethernet-only".

Besides, why the hell does lack of TDM make a network special or in any way more reliable?

Maybe he's dumber than we originally thought.

Not really. He is just pitching VoIP as there is a market "battle" between TDM PBX and VoIP, between ILECs and VoIP ISPs.


http://t1rex.blogspot.com/2007/11/tdm-vs-voip-why-not-both.html

Are you scratching your head over the great divide in enterprise telephony? Should you stay with your trusty TDM based PBX phone system or toss everything out in favor of VoIP?


http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=228537&start=0

VoIP Vs TDM Telephony
Hi all, i have a dificult customer and im trying to convince to use VoIP isntead of old TDM telephony, he dont want VoIP because the handset are very expensive than traditional handset, but i dont know of convince him and explain the advantages of VoIP, this customer is a BIG new hotel and they dont have nothing deployed at this time, can somebody give a hint?....


http://www.networkworld.com/news/2007/102607-arguments-voip-tdm.html?nwwpkg=50arguments


TDM isn’t dead yet as the backbone of corporate phone networks, but it is definitely in its last throes.

VoIP seeems to be the technology path for Enterprise accounts and multi site organizations. Where the technology seems to have stalled is with medium size companies and the SMB market. The ROI for VoIP historically has not been strong enough in comparison to TDM and key systems.....until recently. We have had a lot of success with Avaya and Cisco penetrating the SMB marketplace with their IP solutions.

What does concern me is the "Hosted Service" IP solutions offered by many of the smaller ISPs. The idea sounds good but is the performance there?

I guess AT&T and Verizon are very happy with the alleged fraud as their collateral gains were fantastic.

1. Direct message to VoIP ISPs with unpaid bills.

2. Direct message to current and potential TDM / VoIP customers

3. Direct message to TDM / VoIP prospects

4. Justice closing competitors taking everything from power strips to customers equipments.

5. FBI acting as ultimate debt collection agency

Collateral damages for the small fishes, collateral gains for the sharks, as usual.

Time to read Swim with the Sharks Without Being Eaten Alive :D

...
And it goes much deeper. Sort of a Blade Runner world in my opinion, but not exactly. It was said then if you are not police, you are little people.

I think today that analogy is proving more and more correct. The power they have has become "unlimited." This is spreading worldwide. That type of power, we as a people just cannot breach. We can question it, but we just can't do anything about it. We can stand up and shout about "our" rights being violated, but there is truly nothing that can be done, individually or as a group, when the powers that be decide to focus on you or me.

Sounds defeatist I know. But that is not to say the end is here, it isn't. It's just the way it is. Best to just get used to it and hope that those in power do not become totally corrupted by it. Some will, some won't. Some have a higher calling, some don't. We are all human, and humanity can be a cruel master if we allow it to be.

Unfortunately for us, I think you are correct in your vision ...

The Cybersecurity Act of 2009 gives the president the ability to "declare a cybersecurity emergency" and shut down or limit Internet traffic in any "critical" information network "in the interest of national security." The bill does not define a critical information network or a cybersecurity emergency. That definition would be left to the president.

The bill does not only add to the power of the president. It also grants the Secretary of Commerce "access to all relevant data concerning [critical] networks without regard to any provision of law, regulation, rule, or policy restricting such access." This means he or she can monitor or access any data on private or public networks without regard to privacy laws.

...

Jennifer Granick, civil liberties director at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, says that granting such power to the Commerce secretary could actually cause networks to be less safe. When one person can access all information on a network, "it makes it more vulnerable to intruders," Granick says. "You've basically established a path for the bad guys to skip down."

The bill's scope, she says, is "contrary to what the Constitution promises us." That's because of the impact it could have on Internet users' privacy rights: If the Commerce Department uncovers evidence of illegal activity when accessing "critical" networks, that information could be used against a potential defendant, even if the department never had the intent to find incriminating evidence. And this might violate the Constitutional protection against searches without cause.


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2009/04/should-obama-control-internet

Not really. He is just pitching VoIP as there is a market "battle" between TDM PBX and VoIP, between ILECs and VoIP ISPs.

I'm referring to Aesir Networks' About Us page where it states they don't use any TDM uplinks. This includes SONET, so are they somehow claiming that the OC standard is inferior to Ethernet?

Their website is one big load of hot air (go figure). Well, looks like Faulkner's back in the game, Feds should have thrown him behind bars when they got the chance.

is it me or is this ppphosting guy just obsessed with this thread? He is posting a good 70-80% of the posts in it, amazing, the guy must be camped out at the pc over this

is it me or is this ppphosting guy just obsessed with this thread? He is posting a good 70-80% of the posts in it, amazing, the guy must be camped out at the pc over this

Since I am a stats guy, it's actually closer to 10% or .09398% of posts in this thread.
As for being obsessed with the thread, it's nothing like that. The information I am obtaining and posting to securityfocus.tv/dallascolo/ is being sent to numerous; attorneys, network security professionals, IT interest groups, national print and TV stations, FCC, and various elected officials.

I'll quote a former California REACT (cyber crimes taskforce member) in stating his "first thought is that this is a great case!."

I've heard there was speculation that this is related to the X-Men origins movie being leaked.

Great to see that a movie leaking on the internet will get your data center raided, but heaven forbid the FBI use my tax money for something a *little* more constructive.

They did you one better, they're making ROI on your tax dollars by using them to seize other assets.

Four questions:

1. How much space was it really? I heard that it was like 10 racks and it fit in one van. Can any Core IP employees come forward and shed light on it? This is coming from someone that was there.

2. To me this looks like a customer of Telx got raided. I would assume that Telx had early knowledge that this was going to happen. Personally I think the amount of space is being blown way out of proportion. I understand there are innocent bystanders, but what we dont know is if there was data on any of the servers being used for customers that was helpful in the case. For example, a shared hosting server that they were also using for the suspected fraud. You have to take that box if you are the FBI.

3. That first warrant for Faulkner looked bad, but I haven't seen the one on Core IP. Where is it? This thread is really more about Core IP.

4. I have talked to several of our peers and I can't find any that have had an issue with the local FBI guys. Most of us have had to deal with warrants at least. In every case they have shown courtesy to me and my employees. When we had a customer that was raided I was called the night before on my cell phone. I was informed when they would arrive and what they would need access to. They did this so they don't create panic from the employees or customers. In our case they showed up at 6am because they wanted to have as little impact as possible on our business. I am sure the way I remember it is a little different from our customer who got arrested at the same time the raid was underway. If you asked a Telx employee about it they would likely say they cant talk about it, but if they could it would probably be a bit different than what we have seen here.

I think a key difference between Colo4Dallas raid and Core IP raid is the Core IP's owner is the target and he had physical access to everything inside the DC while in Colo4Dallas case the target was a customer with limited access.

So has this ever been determined if M. Faulkner is the victim or a scammer who had it coming? Ive seen mixed things, some people say he is a seasoned scammer and shady businessman, others say the FBI are the bad guys here.

So who is the bad guy here? Do other hosters need to worry about such situations if they are innocent or this really wouldn't happen unless you was definitely doing something illegal?

So has this ever been determined if M. Faulkner is the victim or a scammer who had it coming? Ive seen mixed things, some people say he is a seasoned scammer and shady businessman, others say the FBI are the bad guys here.

So who is the bad guy here? Do other hosters need to worry about such situations if they are innocent or this really wouldn't happen unless you was definitely doing something illegal?

felosi, whether or not you do anything illegal... it's 2009, thanks to *insert any name you want*.. the government can come and cough terrorism or an illegal term and do what they want to do. so ultimately lose lose situation.

So has this ever been determined if M. Faulkner is the victim or a scammer who had it coming? Ive seen mixed things, some people say he is a seasoned scammer and shady businessman, others say the FBI are the bad guys here.

So who is the bad guy here? Do other hosters need to worry about such situations if they are innocent or this really wouldn't happen unless you was definitely doing something illegal?

Felosi,

Good question. Who is the bad guy here? We do not have all the information; mostly from the CBS news in regards to Core IP's involvement in the Verizon and AT&T's $6,000,000 fraudulent case. The FBI would not raid a business if they didn't feel that there is a strong case against it.

Unfortunately, being a good host does not guarantee you safety if you do not know your surrounding. You still can be a victim if you are associated with the wrong people, just like the innocent customers of Core IP in this case. So make sure you know who you do business with and who are they associated with. Just like in real life, an innocent pedestrian can be hit by a drunk driver.

We have not received any more news from the authority so the final conclusion is yet to come.

dotHostel,

I didn't make the point real well in my earlier post. My bad. I meant to say that when Colo4 had a customer that was raided it is no different than this case where Telx had a customer that was raided. Colo4 wasnt raided, a customer in Colo4 was raided. Telx wasnt raided, nor was 2323 Bryan. A cage belonging to Core IP and maybe some office space of Core IP was raided. But I really want to make people understand that the white van you saw on the CBS11 website is the van that everything was loaded in to. This is blown way out of proportion. And, it was a small cage at that.

If a cage customer in our facility, or any other in the nation, is involved directly in a fraud that gets investigated by the FBI the same thing is going to happen. It will happen in Chicago, NYC or anywhere else. I have a feeling that when the warrant is released and a link gets posted this will all seem a lot clearer.

Again, it is my understanding from someone that was at 2323 Bryan as a very interested party that this white van on the video on CBS11 was able to hold all of the equipment. If you can get a $6,000,000 fraud down to enough computers that it fits in a single van I think you did a pretty good job. Still, I feel for those few that lost gear. The number of 50 customers was from the customer but I have only heard of a few. I would imagine that the number 50 includes some shared customers. Again, we all feel sorry for them.

If you can get a $6,000,000 fraud down to enough computers that it fits in a single van I think you did a pretty good job.
Just for fun, let me add some perspective to that comment. I recently carried more than 20 1U servers across town in my wife's 4 door sedan without a fuss, and there was still room for 3 humans. It's reasonable to believe a couple dozen servers in the hands of criminals would be sufficient to commit $millions in fraud. Doesn't take a van-load of them.

Still, I feel for those few that lost gear.
This has been my contention throughout this thread. I don't know Liquid Motors from the man on the moon, but I use them as a perfect example of a company with every right to be outraged. They lost complete access to over $300,000 in equipment, and for several days were unable to conduct business through no fault of their own, until they could cobble together a Plan C. (Plan B, being their DR/failover gear, which was also wiped out in the raid.) Even when presented with evidence and testimony that Core IP personnel could not have breached Liquid's security and used Liquid's gear for malicious pursuits, the FBI (and the judge) still refused to return the property.

Well I guess another thing to consider too is. if you have a business that you need everything online at all times as well as redundant backup solutions, you want to make sure you can survive any worst case scenario THEN you should do extensive research and investigating when considering a home for your data. And from what Ive seen from simply googling the people in question here there are some definite red flags...

For example, the netherlands hosting which is copyright friendly . I know its not going to last forever, I know it can go down anytime without warning and stay down for days. I tell everyone we never know if the datacenter will be raided and all boxes jerked out. So I tell them enjoy it while they can.

I know the places I use for my main hosting are not going to go down due to shady practices, I know I cant risk that.

SO therefore. The innocent clients who suffered from this, I do feel for them but they should have made better choices in choosing their host and done a few simple google searches

Well I guess another thing to consider too is. if you have a business that you need everything online at all times as well as redundant backup solutions, you want to make sure you can survive any worst case scenario THEN you should do extensive research and investigating when considering a home for your data.
I agree, to some extent. However, the problem Liquid Motors was up against wasn't just getting their data back. Their storage arrays weren't something you can pick up at Best Buy. According to their court filings, at least one of the arrays had a lead time of 8 weeks for delivery and provisioning.

I know WHT members run the spectrum from simple shared-hosting users, to large datacenter owners, and many reading this thread are probably wondering what's the big deal. It's hard for someone who's never bought and managed infrastructure to appreciate the expenses, workloads and difficulties in re-establishing service after a major loss, such as Liquid's loss of all their equipment. We just went through a major equipment upgrade cycle, so the difficulties of moving old equipment to new are still fresh in my head.

Receiving a shipment of new hardware is the easiest part. Anyone who has tried to restore backups to dis-similar hardware knows how daunting that task is, unless they have specifically purchased software for universal (same or different hardware) bare-metal restores.

How long would it take to get 2 racks of equipment up and running again ?

1 week to petition judge for denial

8 week lead time for new equipment

1 week to rack, restore and test

+/- 1-2 week(s) for Murphy

----------------
~2.5 months

+ lost revenues + additional expenses + lost customers/employees + lawsuits/claims from contracted clients/vendors could very well end up costing over $1M.

An unexpected $1M bill will put most small businesses out of business.

Even the 'best' insurance companies out there will deny the majority, or all of the losses because "FBI Raid" wasn't listed as a factor in the policy. Even if the insurance company coughs up all the money and Liquid Motors is back in business, the downstream and ripple effects will certainly put a dent into any future earnings.

Should the FBI be responsible and pay if the insurance company doesn't ?

Should the FBI be responsible and pay if the insurance company doesn't ?

If they were unwarranted in taking it, yes. If not, no. Though why should the FBI be fully responsible for the company's lack of a DR/backup plan? If the FBI took all of our shared hosting servers, all of them, we'd be able to have everyone up and running again within 24-48 hours, (It is largely that long because of hardware availability, etc.) and that is significantly more customers than anyone inside Core IP is talking about, based on the statements about the amount of equipment taken, etc.

Though why should the FBI be fully responsible for the company's lack of a DR/backup plan?
As I recall, Liquid did have a DR/backup plan. Problem was, it was with the same vendor. So points added for DR preparation, but points deducted for using the same datacenter operator.

But before we stick pins in Liquid's doll, how many providers with multiple locations push their DR/failover/replication services? Peak 10, with 9 separate facilities, blows that horn all the time; it's part of their marketing pitch. So does Sago. So did Exodus. Dedicated server providers like The Planet also pitch spreading your servers among their Dallas and Austin facilities so your eggs are in different baskets, as do many others we've all heard of.

This was a hard lesson, that all of us learned at Liquid's expense: one provider is a single point of failure, whether their backup facility is 2 blocks, or 2000 miles, away.

If the FBI took all of our shared hosting servers, all of them, we'd be able to have everyone up and running again within 24-48 hoursZ
But for fun, let's pretend they took all your dedicated servers. How deep in the poo would you be then, and what recovery timeframe would be in-play?

(I'm not picking a fight with you Karl, so don't misunderstand my tone.)

But before we stick pins in Liquid's doll, how many providers with multiple locations push their DR/failover/replication services?

You are right. Considering you are happy with your reputable provider why should you host your failover/replication service with another colo company if your current provider offers services in multiple locations, sometimes in other continents?

Providers go out of business abruptly sometimes, or their billing/abuse department might decide to cut you off without warning. We have always considered a proper DR site to be from a completely unrelated entity.

I have just uploaded the warrant's & evidence collected at Core IP Networks Datacenter and the home of Matthew Simpson, in addition to the facility at 1950 Stemmons Freeway Suite 2405, Dallas Tx. You can download the full details at http://www.securityfocus.tv/dallascolo/ .

Consider yourself the first one's to actually see the warrants issued on Core IP Networks, as I am not aware of any news sources that have released these court documents.

You are right. Considering you are happy with your reputable provider why should you host your failover/replication service with another colo company if your current provider offers services in multiple locations, sometimes in other continents?

Because your single point of failure is the business entity. Some companies run seperate entities just in case the primary gets sued, raided, etc. out of business.

And you never know what that company is hosting. Heck, The Planet hosted the Taliban. (They claim unknowingly, I have no reason not to believe them) Talk about a raid target.

Because your single point of failure is the business entity. Some companies run seperate entities just in case the primary gets sued, raided, etc. out of business.

You are right on there, but most dont think like that. I think a trained network admin should know this. But like I said before, somewhere along the lines companies penny pinch, whether its choosing their network or admins, and in the end they could've, should've, would've.

Sure, I feel bad for all the innocent people. But their choices and poor preparation put them in that spot.

Man I am soo sorry to hear a SWAT team at your doorstep, this makes no sence. What has SWAT have to do in here ?
Gov. should not waste my Tax $$ like this.
This is definitely not like penalizing the right party - poor work by FBI.
Is my country the right place for doing the business ..
What does the future hold-in for us, moving to Russia with our servers.
Will you FBI pay-up for the loss of business on our side and our clients
Much more can be written, but guess who cares to read these many posts after all.

2skypn

Are you prefer look see FSB (old KGB) commandos at your door :)? I guess no. To be serious it doesn't matter who are do such raid. Cop is cop - he should find and capture offender. Only question - are they do that by right way? Of course without enough information we cannot judge are FBI was right with selected way or not.

But for fun, let's pretend they took all your dedicated servers. How deep in the poo would you be then, and what recovery timeframe would be in-play?


We do not claim any responsibility for backups on dedicated servers and clearly make it known that we do not make any pro-active backups of dedicated accounts, etc. thus in that case, the individual clients would be responsible for their own recovery plans.

2skypn

Are you prefer look see FSB (old KGB) commandos at your door :)? I guess no. To be serious it doesn't matter who are do such raid. Cop is cop - he should find and capture offender. Only question - are they do that by right way? Of course without enough information we cannot judge are FBI was right with selected way or not.

Thx - Rustelekom, you have a nice point in here :)

This is incredible. DOES THE US DEPARTAMENT KNOW HOW MANY MILLIONS $$$ the United States earns each year of people hosting websites in DataCenters in the US, as well servers and other equipment?

We all know the US is the primary place for hosting and Datacenters. THIS JUST kills that business income.

Nobody is going to trust their servers to a US facility like this anymore. There is absolutely no excuse to raid all servers and leave business without their data. I wonder how many lawsuits this is going to get, not to mention that DC is going bankrupt as they will lose all their clients.

Imagine this.

Joe calls from Australia to DC "Hell, all my servers are down, my clients are screaming my at the phone, my hosting business is coming down"

On the other side a tech in the DC "The FBI took your server, and data, you will have it back in 4 months"

Bye, bye hosting companies that builded their client base in years of work.

Welcome EUROPE DCs!!!! It seems Europe will gladly take those MILLIONS $$$$ !!! You dont have to be the FBI to take all servers, every idiot can do that. They should had investigate the servers in place when they are online, not shut them down like that.

We all know the US is the primary place for hosting and Datacenters. THIS JUST kills that business income.

Nobody is going to trust their servers to a US facility like this anymore.
I seriously doubt that. Very few people will ACTUALLY remove their gear from U.S. facilities because of this. The ones who do are either running questionable businesses, or are located out of country and just rent a few servers from a U.S. provider.

It's highly unlikely that a company primarily serving the U.S. would suddenly want to move to a non-U.S. location, farther away from the very eyeballs that consume their content.

We're a U.S. company, and there is no way I would put our gear out of country. All this has done is convinced me that DR/failover locations should be with a different provider than the primary facility.

This is incredible. DOES THE US DEPARTAMENT KNOW HOW MANY MILLIONS $$$ the United States earns each year of people hosting websites in DataCenters in the US, as well servers and other equipment?

We all know the US is the primary place for hosting and Datacenters. THIS JUST kills that business income.

Nobody is going to trust their servers to a US facility like this anymore. There is absolutely no excuse to raid all servers and leave business without their data. I wonder how many lawsuits this is going to get, not to mention that DC is going bankrupt as they will lose all their clients.

Imagine this.

Joe calls from Australia to DC "Hell, all my servers are down, my clients are screaming my at the phone, my hosting business is coming down"

On the other side a tech in the DC "The FBI took your server, and data, you will have it back in 4 months"

Bye, bye hosting companies that builded their client base in years of work.

Welcome EUROPE DCs!!!! It seems Europe will gladly take those MILLIONS $$$$ !!! You dont have to be the FBI to take all servers, every idiot can do that. They should had investigate the servers in place when they are online, not shut them down like that.

What happened to all of Joe's backups? There's never an excuse to be without a backup of your data, especially if your income depends on it. If his hosting business is really going to be out of business because of a situation like this then his customers are better off with a different host who knows how to protect their data.

All this has done is convinced me that DR/failover locations should be with a different provider than the primary facility. Agreed. Better to be safe - it's your business you risk losing.

I seriously doubt that. Very few people will ACTUALLY remove their gear from U.S. facilities because of this. The ones who do are either running questionable businesses, or are located out of country and just rent a few servers from a U.S. provider.

It's highly unlikely that a company primarily serving the U.S. would suddenly want to move to a non-U.S. location, farther away from the very eyeballs that consume their content.

We're a U.S. company, and there is no way I would put our gear out of country. All this has done is convinced me that DR/failover locations should be with a different provider than the primary facility.

Thats not true. I dont server a single business in the US and I have servers in the US for the last 14 years. I cannot imagine how much money I have send over the US and even paid taxes there.

There is absolutely no difference to me to have servers in Europe. I also know, hundreds of business that have 0 relantionship with the US but have their servers there because of cheap connectivity prices and good DCs. So that is not true what you said.

Where do you think 99% of websites in Latin America are hosted? In the US since they dont have decent DCs. I also know that many UK companies have servers in the US, as well Africa, Australia, etc. There thousands if not millions of persons that have websites, servers or gear in the US but their primary business is not the US. They are a big income to the US economy.

Europe was to expensive, but they have really lowered their prices in the last years. Specially in Germany where they have really good DCs now.

Im not leaving the US, i have my head digged in it to much. But im sure this will fall like a glass of water to allot of European customers. I have lost hundreds of clients because of the UE privacy data agreement where they have to host their data in Europe, this will even hurt allot more the hosting industry in the US.

Not just Europeans, but allot of people will really be concerned about the goverment raiding their servers even when they where just hosted in the same DC where a kid decided to do ilegal stuff. Im sure this isnt as bad as everybody comments, but having your servers offline even for a week can be a total disaster for some companies. This will just confirm them that they are better hosting close to where they live. And go ask some DCs from where their clients are, you are going to impressed that some DC have more foreign clients then local ones.

I agree with nibb. Checking forums in South Africa, Australia, Brazil, or reading threads in WHT you will find lots of people from other countries wanting to host in the US or Europe.

Thats not true. I dont server a single business in the US and I have servers in the US for the last 14 years. I cannot imagine how much money I have send over the US and even paid taxes there.

There is absolutely no difference to me to have servers in Europe.
Which is why I wrote, The ones who do are either... or located out of country and just rent a few servers from a U.S. provider."


Im not leaving the US
Again, you made my point. It's not enough to make us move our equipment off-shore.

And go ask some DCs from where their clients are, you are going to impressed that some DC have more foreign clients then local ones.
I think evidence of whether I'm right or wrong will be illustrated by how many people actually cancel their servers from U.S. providers and transfer that data to an off-shore host. The larger datacenter operators can tell us if they've seen an abnormal increase in cancellation activity. I suspect the answer is No.

Bottom line is, nobody cares as long as it's happening "to someone else". We know the risk of it happening to us is very small. And if we're truly concerned, we'll just put our DR gear with a different provider. Problem solved, without shipping any gear out of country.

I agree with nibb. Checking forums in South Africa, Australia, Brazil, or reading threads in WHT you will find lots of people from other countries wanting to host in the US or Europe.

And they will continue to do so. They won't let an isolated incident keep them from hosting where bandwidth is plentiful and servers are cheap.

Bottom line is, nobody cares as long as it's happening "to someone else"

Very true.

Which is why I wrote, The ones who do are either... or located out of country and just rent a few servers from a U.S. provider."


Again, you made my point. It's not enough to make us move our equipment off-shore.


I think evidence of whether I'm right or wrong will be illustrated by how many people actually cancel their servers from U.S. providers and transfer that data to an off-shore host. The larger datacenter operators can tell us if they've seen an abnormal increase in cancellation activity. I suspect the answer is No.

Bottom line is, nobody cares as long as it's happening "to someone else". We know the risk of it happening to us is very small. And if we're truly concerned, we'll just put our DR gear with a different provider. Problem solved, without shipping any gear out of country.

So by your asumption companies that lease servers are less important then the ones that own their servers?

The Planet, SoftLayer, Lime Networks, etc. They all just lease servers and have several thousands of customers.

Leasing the servers doesnt mean anything about the business or the operations they have. A company in Europe could be leasing 100 servers in the US for their main operations and that doesnt make them less important then a company that owns their equipment.

Why do you think Dallas is the main place for servers and hosting? If everybody would just host close to their homes there would be no Dallas, or Atlanta regarding DCs.

And yes, I think lease is the ones that are going to be affected at most, since they can just cancell and move on to some other place taking the hit of the change and move of data.

You assume that must people own their equipment which is not true. Little joe that pays 20$ a month to HostGator doesnt own anything. Same goes for small company that leases 3 servers in Lime Network or The Planet. They are just as important as someone else, regarding if the other is a US business and owns their equipment. Just because they are not in the US and doesnt own something doesnt mean they cannot be taken as serious since they sure took their money serious.

Also, I dont think it will have a big impact because there arent to many people that knew about this. It was almost not mentioned at all in the news, and if it was, its only in the US.

I can be sure that if you make a public contest saying that the FBI can raid or unplug your server without any evidence that you did something wrong you and publish this as an example you will see how many customers of The Planet start cancelling and moving to Europe DCs, since they are afraid already of the US goverment policy regarding "Shot first and then ask" so they are not even take this as a joke.

Go to Europe and ask someone what they think about the US Iraq war (where there where no arms of massive destructions). A war based on a lie and forcing people to adopt democracy. 9 of 10 Europeans where agaisnt it like every human being that doesnt like to be invaded without reason.
Now go and tell these thousands of people that their whole business can be unplugged without any reason. Im talking about honest hard working clients. I think the FBI should raid servers and even take actions, not a problem with that.

But just taking the whole DC equipment from all clients make my hair fall, even if they took wrongly just 1 server its bad enough, they are the FBI not kids playing law enforcement, they suppose to have training and drills for this. Its like blowing up a whole city just because there was a terrorist hidding inside someones house. So what do we do? Do we do a search and destroy operation in place house by house? No. We send a B52 and trow a nuke at it. This is the impact that can have on a business that makes their income online.

So by your asumption companies that lease servers are less important then the ones that own their servers?
WHAT? I never said any such thing.

You assume that must people own their equipment
Again... WHAT? I never said that either.


Also, I dont think it will have a big impact because there arent to many people that knew about this. It was almost not mentioned at all in the news, and if it was, its only in the US.
Again... you have made my point.

In case you missed it, I'll say it again: nobody cares. Nobody is going to move their colo'd equipment offshore, and nobody is going to cancel their rented U.S. servers and rent new ones somewhere else in the world.

I am very upset that the FBI took down innocent businesses, but I am not going to move my servers offshore.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, or why this is even an argument, because we both seem to believe the same thing-- that this isolated incident will have little (or no) effect on the U.S. hosting business.

I think Nibb is saying that people ARE going to be moving away from hosting in the US and that this is going to cost the US a lot of business.

WHAT? I never said any such thing.


Again... WHAT? I never said that either.


Again... you have made my point.

In case you missed it, I'll say it again: nobody cares. Nobody is going to move their colo'd equipment offshore, and nobody is going to cancel their rented U.S. servers and rent new ones somewhere else in the world.

I am very upset that the FBI took down innocent businesses, but I am not going to move my servers offshore.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, or why this is even an argument, because we both seem to believe the same thing-- that this isolated incident will have little (or no) effect on the U.S. hosting business.

You are right. It wont, except to those affected directly. My point is that someone is suppose to learn from mystakes before they happen again in a more larger scenario. Today it was a small DC, tomorrow it could Terramark.

But you are right. Nobody cares, just like nobody cares millons of people that die each year of hunger. I would not care less if New York was nuked by a terrorist and thousands die, and even more servers blow up. I dont even live there, and since it will not affect 1$ of my business I would not care. Thats how we all should deal with this problems. If it doesnt affect me or the economy then there is no problem, we should care just when it happens. :cool:

But really if we all just dont care, there is absolutely no point in this thread at all.

Four questions:

1. How much space was it really? I heard that it was like 10 racks and it fit in one van. Can any Core IP employees come forward and shed light on it? This is coming from someone that was there.[quote]

The amount of servers that were seized in the Core IP raid, spans multiple pages. In the Infomart raid on Crydon technologies there was over 10 pages of handwritten evidence seized; servers, powerstrips,firewalls, routers, ect.

[quote]
2. To me this looks like a customer of Telx got raided. I would assume that Telx had early knowledge that this was going to happen. Personally I think the amount of space is being blown way out of proportion. I understand there are innocent bystanders, but what we dont know is if there was data on any of the servers being used for customers that was helpful in the case. For example, a shared hosting server that they were also using for the suspected fraud. You have to take that box if you are the FBI.

After taking a glance at the warrant and evidence seized, it appears as though at least some of the boxes were clearly marked with ip addresses, and customers they belonged to.


3. That first warrant for Faulkner looked bad, but I haven't seen the one on Core IP. Where is it? This thread is really more about Core IP.

I have linked the warrants and evidence lists at http://securityfocus.tv/dallascolo/ . The warrant for COREIP spells out how Matthew Simpson is allegedly involved, ect.

Well there is a nice article of it on Wired.com

Now please read this and tell that is the best of the law enforcement in the US, I really thought this was a joke, but No, its true, this is the FBI:

"But on Tuesday, an FBI spokesman disputed that charge.
"We wouldn’t be looking at it if it was a civil matter," says Mark White, spokesman for the FBI's Dallas office. "And a judge wouldn’t sign a federal search warrant if there wasn’t probable cause to believe that a fraud took place and that the equipment we asked to seize had evidence pertaining to the criminal violation."

And then you read:

In interviews with Threat Level, companies affected by the raids say they've lost millions of dollars in equipment and business after the FBI hauled off gear belonging to phone and VoIP providers, a credit card processing company and other businesses that housed equipment at the centers. Nobody has been charged in the FBI's investigation.

And this is what the FBI thinks about colocation:

"FBI spokesman White says the equipment seizures were necessary.
"My understanding is that the way these things are hooked up is that they're interconnected to each other," he says. "Company A may be involved in some criminal activity and because of the interconnectivity of all these things, the information of what company A is doing may be sitting on company B or C or D's equipment."

I dont know about you guys but they are putting themselfs in a very bad situation because they said "we asked to seize had evidence pertaining to the criminal violation" and but they just took servers which dont have any evidence of criminal violation at all. Innocent servers. They are breaking the law.

This is a violation, of allot of things, in one part they say they only took servers which are identified to have a criminal association but then they admit they just took everything because they are "interconnected".

Isnt the internet interconected on a wider scale?

The link is here:
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2009/04/data-centers-ra.html

McNamara once said:
How much evil must we do in order to do good?

Think about it.

McNamara once said:
How much evil must we do in order to do good?

Think about it.

Only when we stop doing we can start becoming.

Think about that also (because it's true).

Wow...That is really really bad. Taking down the whole DC just to get one or possibly a few servers...and putting the 911 in risk which means peoples lives..

they obviously have no concept of how colocation is done or networking/server security. a datacenter isnt just some big cloud-computing system lol

they obviously have no concept of how colocation is done or networking/server security. a datacenter isnt just some big cloud-computing system lol

All they know is that it's a series of tubes and not a dump truck. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f99PcP0aFNE)

they obviously have no concept of how colocation is done or networking/server security. a datacenter isnt just some big cloud-computing system lol

Actually, I have found the exact opposite. I have worked with the FBI and DHS on illegal activities in the past, and the agents involved have always been very knowledgeable and willing to make sure they were not impacting our business.

Yeah i think if your nice to them there be nice to you... or at least try

Our country got ****ed over when people started supporting parties instead of ideas.

No matter who you vote for, you are voting us further and further away from democracy. We brainwash our children to believe we live in the greatest country, even though we have sub-par education, healthcare, and a justice system which has been based upon 'guilty until proven innocent' longer than most people can remember.

The FBI will never claim any fault on their part in their actions, even if nothing is ever found on any of these servers.

Welcome to America - ignoring our constitution since 1787

If they were unwarranted in taking it, yes. If not, no. Though why should the FBI be fully responsible for the company's lack of a DR/backup plan? If the FBI took all of our shared hosting servers, all of them, we'd be able to have everyone up and running again within 24-48 hours, (It is largely that long because of hardware availability, etc.) and that is significantly more customers than anyone inside Core IP is talking about, based on the statements about the amount of equipment taken, etc.

That sounds dangerously optimistic. I would imagine you'd still be neck deep in tickets and phone calls in < 48 hours and not have much done in the way of a restoration.

All they know is that it's a series of tubes and not a dump truck. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f99PcP0aFNE)

It's definitely not a big truck, the big truck is what the FBI uses to seize your datacenter.

Our country got ****ed over when people started supporting parties instead of ideas.

No matter who you vote for, you are voting us further and further away from democracy. We brainwash our children to believe we live in the greatest country, even though we have sub-par education, healthcare, and a justice system which has been based upon 'guilty until proven innocent' longer than most people can remember.

The FBI will never claim any fault on their part in their actions, even if nothing is ever found on any of these servers.

Welcome to America - ignoring our constitution since 1787

Awesome great words Man :agree:

imo; wht needs to close this thread. Its becoming pretty politically " corrective ". Along with the fact that its old news.

America has enough media coverage already with the new president.

If the FBI took all of our shared hosting servers, all of them, we'd be able to have everyone up and running again within 24-48 hours
This assumes they don't "pull a Core IP" on you and take everything, including your backup storage arrays AND your secondary backup equipment at another location (if any). Remember, the Core IP sweep took everything down to the bare cage, power cords, paper clips, dust bunnies and all. If the FBI decided Steadfast was involved in some illicit activity, you can be sure they'd sweep every location you have, primary and backup.

imo; wht needs to close this thread. Its becoming pretty politically " corrective ". Along with the fact that its old news.

America has enough media coverage already with the new president.

Why should they close this one when there are topics opened which are allot older?

Old news? Im not sure if you know when this happened, its not old news, the new wired magazine as an article about this.

Political? Sure. Everything is politics in this world. Its when people start to talk about their society and their rules, and their rulers.

Never to discuss politics is a bad thing. Actually when nobody cares is when people start abusing their positions.

See post before this. They sure dont know what a datacenter is and they sure dont know what colo is.

Saying all the equipment is connected one with other so they had to take everything is the most patethic thing I have read. The whole internet is interconnected.

Why do some always feel they have to jump in a thread and request it to be closed? unsubscribe or just dont look at it. I really dont see how it bothers people so much. No offense, just wondering why it bothers some people.

On another note concerning the topic. I still dont think it has fully come out about who was the bad guy, what is the real story here, etc; Was this some overly aggressive unreasonable raid, was the guy's story about the ex employee really true?

Anyone know the facts about this yet? If it is that easy for someone to get their boxes pulled and raided causing public embarrassment and destruction of business then I think we would all have something to worry about the way the authorities and laws in this country are going.

People think that is paranoid talk about the goverment getting too powerful, US turning into a police state and such but I think it is happening more and more everyday, especially with the socialist minded liberals running things now.

The only way we're going to stop this from happening to one of us is to create a lobby group and/or political action committee to pool up our resources and change or refine the law to limit the kinds of power law enforcement has to shut down a business.

Our country got ****ed over when people started supporting parties instead of ideas.

No matter who you vote for, you are voting us further and further away from democracy. We brainwash our children to believe we live in the greatest country, even though we have sub-par education, healthcare, and a justice system which has been based upon 'guilty until proven innocent' longer than most people can remember.

The FBI will never claim any fault on their part in their actions, even if nothing is ever found on any of these servers.

Welcome to America - ignoring our constitution since 1787

I wonder how many times you've actually traveled outside the US and what your definition of "sub-par" is. I don't need a response as that's not what the thread is about.

Head to a 3rd world country and then let me know how bad we are doing here, hell cross the bridge to a border town in Mexico and then tell me about sub par.

Who is brainwashing all those trying to get here?

Wow.. I missed this one but this is what I get for searching for Core IP Networks lol :)

Whatever happened with this case? i've searched google and WHT high and low for a result/outcome and cant find anything.

Anyone know?

tks

http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=917594

The owner of Core IP was alleged to be involved as well, but not sure if any of these charges have gone to trial or what the verdicts are.

Also found this follow up article:
http://www.elliscountypress.com/news/9321-four-fugitives-taken-into-custody-in-mexico.html

So the truth finally comes out. There is one bit of clarification from the Observer article. This was not an "enormous data center". It was a cage of equipment in Telx. Don't know if the actual size was ever revealed. It did affect several local businesses that were hosted by them, and that was unfortunate.

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2011/12/almost_three_years_after_fbi_r.php

http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/12/23/3616495/feds-untangle-20-million-scheme.html

I just read all these posts and a lot of the links and this is some bizzare news.

As a voip and colo provider I know what its like to be hacked and have services stolen out from under your feet but to have the FBI do it to you its just insane.

To our American friends south of the border, get your backups and mirrors up here in Canada.

I just read all these posts and a lot of the links and this is some bizzare news.

As a voip and colo provider I know what its like to be hacked and have services stolen out from under your feet but to have the FBI do it to you its just insane.

To our American friends south of the border, get your backups and mirrors up here in Canada.

Clearly you didn't read any of this.

ok stolen might a little harsh but holy crap & yes I read it all and still reading some other news on it

Does Canadian law enforcement not exist or do they just not confiscate materials connected to a crime as part of their investigation? To the best of my knowledge, Canadian law is very close to US law as far as search and seizure. In this case, there was a grand jury indictment and a search warrant issued, due process was followed. Based on the fact they ran, I'd have to say they were likely correct as well.

I will say, we have dealt with the FBI on many occasions and it has always been a good experience. They know what they're doing and try their best to assure that as few people as possible are affected. The issue here was that they could not trust the provider directly, so taking one cage of gear was pretty much their only option, otherwise how would they determine which system/s had the data they were looking for?

My thoughts are they could have narrowed it down to the systems involved and all of the cage owners gear but all of the colocated servers owned by third parties didnt need to be touched; espeically 911 systems.

We do have similar laws but we can hand over records and systems when asked to do so by law enforcement without warrants if the specific circumstances justify it. I.e. if the police are looking for someone who is running from the law

One little difference I have noticed over the years is when we get calls regarding crimes in process and the police are looking any information regarding a specific phone number, calls to it, ANI etc we have no issues getting them all possible information we have without a warrant but if this phone number/call came from a US service provider, the US based provider wont typically go release any information without a warrant

My thoughts are they could have narrowed it down to the systems involved and all of the cage owners gear but all of the colocated servers owned by third parties didnt need to be touched; espeically 911 systems.

We do have similar laws but we can hand over records and systems when asked to do so by law enforcement without warrants if the specific circumstances justify it. I.e. if the police are looking for someone who is running from the law

One little difference I have noticed over the years is when we get calls regarding crimes in process and the police are looking any information regarding a specific phone number, calls to it, ANI etc we have no issues getting them all possible information we have without a warrant but if this phone number/call came from a US service provider, the US based provider wont typically go release any information without a warrant


You are not reading this, the entire thing was a scam, the CAGE provider is the group of people that were convicted. It's not like some guy with 2 servers in a cabinet got the entire cage raided.

my apologies, I got it in my head that third parties were hurt by this and not involved in the scam.

I will say, we have dealt with the FBI on many occasions and it has always been a good experience. They know what they're doing and try their best to assure that as few people as possible are affected.

Hah! I wish I could say they had the same capabilities here in Denver. I have seen agents attempt to violate the terms of their warrants and be very wasteful with the FBI's resources - leaving their gear behind months after their investigation ended, for example.

my apologies, I got it in my head that third parties were hurt by this and not involved in the scam.

The only people hurt by it were the scammers themselves or customers of the scammers, there were no unrelated parties affected. If you do not trust the provider, how are you going to get any sort of real list of what the gear all is? In addition, if they're taking the networking gear, which makes sense for logs, confirming configurations, etc they're down anyway.

Hah! I wish I could say they had the same capabilities here in Denver. I have seen agents attempt to violate the terms of their warrants and be very wasteful with the FBI's resources - leaving their gear behind months after their investigation ended, for example.

Well, the Chicago FBI office has been great. :-)

When you read the list of who was charged you see that it included pretty much everyone that worked there. The FBI probably had no one that they could work with to see what was legit and what was not. This was a company that operated solely by stealing services from carriers and selling them to people. Yes, there were some legit customers buying services but they would have been down anyway since the router would likely be part of the evidence.

The stories greatly overstated the truth. This was a small cage in Telx that was emptied because the owners of the cage were thieves, not some dramatic datacenter raid. The photos on TV and the articles weren't even of the FBI in this raid. The articles, and parts of this thread, make it seem like FBI guys dropped through the ceiling with guns a blazin. Likely they showed up with IT guys, served papers and emptied the cage. Not much of a news story there. There was never a concern that Telx would be siezed by the FBI because they, like every other responsible datacenter, looked at the paperwork and cooperated with the FBI.

The unfortunate people are the ones that we colocated with CoreIP. I really feel for those people as they had no way to know they were in the situation. But I also understand why the FBI had to take it all down. They didn't immediately capture everyone and if they left it up while they sorted through it they risked losing the evidence. This couldn't have been much equipment because the cage was pretty small, but that doesn't make the pain any less for the customers affected.

nvm..wow thread necro

big telecoms like verizon 'taken for 20 million'..not true.
Services that they could have charged for maybe 20 million, probably not.
Actual cost to verizon probably zero.

to make up for it, they will nickel and dime the entire country for about 5 billion in fees.

nvm..wow thread necro

big telecoms like verizon 'taken for 20 million'..not true.
Services that they could have charged for maybe 20 million, probably not.
Actual cost to verizon probably zero.

to make up for it, they will nickel and dime the entire country for about 5 billion in fees.

Even if what was stolen had little value you still have felony crimes of wire/mail fraud, etc. According to the case they didn't just skip out on bills, they got credit and service in the first place based on false and fraudulent pretenses. The FBI is involved because it is a criminal matter, not a civil matter, so no idea how what you're saying really has any bearing.

Does Canadian law enforcement not exist or do they just not confiscate materials connected to a crime as part of their investigation? To the best of my knowledge, Canadian law is very close to US law as far as search and seizure. In this case, there was a grand jury indictment and a search warrant issued, due process was followed. Based on the fact they ran, I'd have to say they were likely correct as well.


The general process is probably going to be somewhat the same but generally speaking, there will be a higher burden of proof required for issuing any warrants. Canadians are much more vocal about our rights and privacy, and more openly critical of law enforcement, so actions would be taken with those points in mind. And if for no other reason, our legal system is encumbered enough that anything takes a long time if it ever gets done. In this particular case, I doubt our law enforcement agencies would have put as many resources or urgency into what's still more or less only private interests at stake. Regardless of the validity of the case, the public would still probably be critical of the costs to taxpayers incurred, and the violations of the rights of the downstream customers.

So in other words, the letter of the law is probably pretty much the same, but the application of the law would probably be pretty different.