OK... I'm close to giving up on server leasing, as the configuration of server I need (384MB RAM) is just too expensive from most the ISP's. I'm not afraid of doing my own server, I have done so for a living in the past. I have extensive experience with high-end colocation and building servers; it is finding good providers on the low end that I'm new at.

I had previously dismissed WeinBar because I felt their dedicated servers were just too expensive. However, since I'm now after co-location, they are top on my list.

http://www.weinbar.com/colo.html

I know that WeinBar is active on this forum... first off, an observation: your co-location page is short on details. What exactly do I get for "Setup Fee"? What are the contract terms? Is there some web page that explains how you do your "average bandwidth usage during the month"?

((Note that this problem isn't unique to WeinBar, i find almost ALL ISP's are too short on details. Who do they think they are dealing with? We are tehnical people, give us a 2nd page with all the gory details! I can point my purchasing guy to the simple page you have, but please provide me with a "tons of details" link!!))

The pricing table is a tiny bit confusing... I think I understand it, but not 100%:
If I go with a Mid Tower system, do I have to pay "Price" + "Bandwidth" per month -- so $150/month for 50GB mid tower?

Any service level agreements? Any outage reporting pages?

Any customers out there who has done colocation or visited their facility? How consistent is the bandwidth? Latency? Are there peak periods where you see slowdowns?

Remember, I will have a server in two different cities, full redundacy on everything... so I could care less about fancy fire systems, earthquake protection, etc. -- I want a reliable network, good peering, and good prices. Has WeinBar delivered on those things?

One other thing... what is the network interface? Is it a 10 or 100Mbps FULL DUPLEX link into a switch port? Is it possible to request two ports, I have some need for streaming data and want to ensure a dedicated port for that.... or at least FULL DUPLEX so that incoming requsts don't interfere.

Thank.

[Edited by StephenRS on 04-14-2001 at 03:00 AM]

I'd like to know the details too..


Andrew

"((Note that this problem isn't unique to WeinBar, i find almost ALL ISP's are too short on details."

You would likely create more issues with explaining too much, than expecting the serious and knowledgeable people will email and simply ask.

"Who do they think they are dealing with?"

Most common collocation, d-server or shared server clients, I'd imagine.

"We are tehnical people,"

And that's just it, being in this industry for a while myself as well, I can honestly say that most collocated and d-server (and shared server) client's are not technical people and will only get confused by too much. So, you keep it short and sweet for those people, although some providers certainly should and could provide more information, and expect the experienced people will knwo to inquire.

"but please provide me with a "tons of details" link!!))""

See, now you're talking. Some like that says "If you know what you're doing, click HERE to get the details you'll want to know". That's a good idea.

Gee, thanks for your approval :)

I think it is NUTS for inexperienced people to be getting their own dedicated server. No wonder there are so many distributed denial of service attacks.

Selecting a colocation site and going over the contract terms is one of the most important decisions for an on-line business!

StephenRS,

Why do you think weinbar's dedicated servers are too high? I looked at a lot of places before going with them and I found their prices to be pretty good.

They aren't that bad, but given the special server requirments I have (512MB RAM and 30GB disk space)... it is much cheaper to build the system.

They offer you rack space for $150/month... so they are charging $200/month ($350 total) for the computer... and the setup fees are similarly high.

I can build a very high quality 512MB / 30GB server for under $1500 (including Windows 2000 license). With the cost difference between colocation and dedicate server, it would take only 4 months to recoup that investment. I will have total site redundacy (at another locaiton in a different city) -- I don't need the "insurance" of a leased server and the associated support that comes with it.

As is stated, I have extensive experience doing colocation and building servers.... For my needs, their price to get the server I wanted is too high, for most people -- their $350/month server plan is a great deal.

http://www.weinbar.com/win2kserv.html

For reference: They want $349 base setup fee, to get the configuration I desire it would be $300 extra for RAM, $150 extra for disk space. That makes the total $800 setup + $350/month.... If I do my own server it will cost me $1550 setup + $150/month (if I go with mid tower system).

Sorry - just a slight interjection.
1.Does colocation mean I send them a server I build myself? If so, who owns the server at the end of a contract?

2.Do i install my own software or will they do it for me?

Sorry.

Colocation - you pay for and build your own server, mail it to them. You get it back when you terminate with them.

"Dedicated Server" -- they provide the server. You are leasing a server.

On self-built colocation servers...
I've always done my own operating system and software install, as I'm very picky about security and other settings. I have my own e-commerce system ( http://www.homecoast.com/ ).

I've heard of places doing the install for you, but that seems a little risky given that YOU select the hardware. If you don't install the operating system, how do you test the hardware? Especially if they do it by the hour.

Originally posted by allending
Sorry - just a slight interjection.
1.Does colocation mean I send them a server I build myself? If so, who owns the server at the end of a contract?

Yes, you send them your own server... And of course, yo own it at the end of the contract term... Wouldn't it be funny if somehow the host get your server after you colocated your own server for 6 months? Everybody will try to offer colocation if this is the case :D


2.Do i install my own software or will they do it for me?

Sorry.

Most host will install any software for you, for additional charge (for the software charge and for the tech charge).

cheers,
:beer:

Since I have dealt with weinbar for a bit, I may be able to answer you.

Originally posted by StephenRS
What exactly do I get for "Setup Fee"? What are the contract terms? Is there some web page that explains how you do your "average bandwidth usage during the month"?

The setup fee is to put your server into their rack and to setup/connect the server into their switch port. Average bandwith usage is measured by the MRTG graph taken periodically (every 5 mins? 10 mins? I am still not sure about this) which will record both your inbound and outbound traffic. At the end, they will calculate the average bandwith (inbound plus outbound) as recorded by the MRTG and that would be your bandwith consumption for that month.

The pricing table is a tiny bit confusing... I think I understand it, but not 100%:
If I go with a Mid Tower system, do I have to pay "Price" + "Bandwidth" per month -- so $150/month for 50GB mid tower?

Yes, you are indeed right.


Any service level agreements? Any outage reporting pages?

Yea.... Mich, you need to put this SLA/AUP (or whatever) on the web :D I got these documents after asking for them directly...


Any customers out there who has done colocation or visited their facility? How consistent is the bandwidth? Latency? Are there peak periods where you see slowdowns?

I have colocated my servers with them. I think their network are pretty solid since the ping response time are pretty steady (I use qwkmon.com to monitor one of my server there). My server has 100% uptime so far. If you need to see my server's latency graph, please email me...


One other thing... what is the network interface? Is it a 10 or 100Mbps FULL DUPLEX link into a switch port? Is it possible to request two ports, I have some need for streaming data and want to ensure a dedicated port for that.... or at least FULL DUPLEX so that incoming requsts don't interfere.

I am not sure about the rest of your questions, but I know for sure they use 100 mbps switch port since (besides they told me so), my server was able to burst to 17.6 Mbps (they claimed 25 Mbps, but never got that yet). Noway you would get this with 10 Mbps switch port, right?

Hope this helps...

cheers,
:beer:

Great info. Was their contract terms, is this strictly month to month?

I'd love your latency graphs. Stephen@RoundSparrow.com

I'm ready to sign-up, they seem great for the primary site.

Great - SOLD!

Please email me at Stephen@RoundSparrow.com and I'll work out my clients details and installation schedule with you.

Sounds like you guys have a great outfit. I've worked in the past with Level 3, Verio, Internap, and many of the really big guys -- I wish they were as easy to deal with :)

But that is the past. Now I need a place that is affordable and more in tune with small business needs. Most of my consulting is focused on reworking sites that have grown too fast and they need help rebuilding for the long haul. They have learned lessons "the hard way" and want it done the right way, often are willing to leapfrog to the next generation.

Your web pages are actually pretty good, at least they have prices. I'm glad to see you are going to add a second page with more detail. Maybe even some photos of your (inside rack) facility and other stuff?

P.S. I was not joking about not needing a "perfect facility" -- I have been responsible for design of data centers, I've toured some of the best facilities in the world. I think a lot of ISP's get carried away (at customer request). I personally believe in the founders of the Internet (such as Paul Baran) -- making things reliable with unreliable components -- which means redundancy at the protocol levels. Those "unreliable" components include ISPs. A 97% perfect server and facility is a lot easier to build than a 99.8% perfect server and facility. I cry when I see $15,000 spent on a server that 18 months later is obsolete and only worth $1,000. Especially when in those 18 months it was only used at 5% capacity. Such waste. Two cheaper and simpler servers is a better solution, plus offers TRUE redundancy. It is all in your software / database design (protocols).

Originally posted by StephenRS
Great - SOLD!

I personally believe in the founders of the Internet (such as Paul Baran) -- making things reliable with unreliable components -- which means redundancy at the protocol levels.

And I thought Al Gore was the founder of the Internet :emlaugh:

I will email you the SLA right away.

Haha. If you haven't read it already, I strongly encourage you to read this: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.03/baran.html

It was published in Wired - March 2001 issue.

His ideas on building reliable systems with unreliable components are just wonderful. And obviously it worked. His comments on how people didn't want to accept the idea still ring true today. It seems to be human nature to think "more expensive is better" instead of "redundancy is better." Too bad that many of those who are responsible for the modern Internet seems to not "get it" (or never took the time to learn it). Customers keep insisting on super expensive solutions (like Verio) and overlook the good enough solutions (like Weinbar). Just because big companies can afford to blow their money, doesn't mean they should.

Portions of this thread have been moved to:
http://webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?&threadid=8504

I wanted to follow-up here....

We signed our contract this week, sent the server Thursday and it is being installed this morning.

Everything has been very good.. Smooooth deal. We had no problems with the contract, everything discussed in this thread was delivered as needed. The best ISP I have dealt with to date, and I have 5 years experience doing co-location and over 10 doing Internet consulting (co-location was rare prior to 1996 in my experience).

I can't believe their prices. Weinbar is great, I hope they can maintain it :)

My server will sit in the rack for testing over the weekend. My current plan is to move traffic to it Monday. I'll report how it goes.

As I've mentioned, the site I am responsible for moving has some very sophisticated network activity and the server keeps extensive records on network connection problems. The server itself makes time-critical outbound connections that are "make or break" -- even a 3 second delay or outage will impact site customers.

The site is being moved from DedicatedHosting.com in Florida. They have been pretty decent since I started with the site in January. However, we have outgrown what they could offer in terms of affordable leased server capacity -- going with a co-located instead of leased server was part of our change of ISP. At times I have found their network to be congested... but not failing. I would rate them a "C+" to "B-" as an ISP. Although I haven't done an actual install with them, just operations for 4 months. We did do a RAM upgrade on the leased server and I was happy with how they accommodated our scheduled outage time (3:00am on a Friday).

My Weinbar server is up! Yey! It just emailed me to tell me it had started.

Pretty cool to build a server, do all the install... put in the IP addresses... box it up... overnight it ..

Then all Weinbar had to do was rack it, connect power and Ethernet and turn it on.... I had it programmed to automatically come up and email me

P.S. Weinbar must have a pretty good air conditioned room, my CPU and case temperature readings are great... much better than the "room temp" stress testing temps I did on the server.

All of our racks are kept between 58 and 62 degrees for your enjoyment!:eek:

Michael: I've tried e-mailing you a couple of times this afternoon but the e-mail keeps getting bounced back to me. I won't post the full details here (unless you ask), but the error says "Requested mail action aborted: exceeded storage allocation."

Hi. Have been running for 48 hours and everything has been good so far. We are moving our site (users) to the server Monday evening if all my software work continues on pace.

Waiting on some new domains to spread...