I am aware of the fact that this is an extremely controversial subject; however, I have a question concerning what is involved in the abortion process - what takes place, exactly? (Please excuse my poor intellectual aptitude).

This information could mostlikely be found using any search engine, but after accidently stumbling across an abortion site this morning, I am quite terrified of the chance that I may come across the same disturbing images I viewed on that site. (URL can be provided if wished, it and the obscene content has been engraved in my mind and will haunt me for a lifetime).

I'm afraid that explaining the procedure in detail would do the same thing to you, as well as all the kids that frequent this site.

You should search for this answer privately with your graphics turned off.

honestly...you should go to a doctor, as it will be much easier for them to explain it in terms that you prefer...you don't even have to go in person, just call them up on the phone...

but, if you want, i can explain the various types...(doesn't paint a pretty picture)

if only you knew... :(

I've seen some pretty awful things in my days (and i'm still young), but seing an abortion would be pretty sick.

I've seen it - in person. Believe me, it will change your life. All your relationships for the rest of your life will be affected if you are involved with one, and lots of things in your psyche are affected that you won't even attribute to it without years of guidance and introspection.

Stuff I saw in the Army didn't affect me as much.

Something tells me you came across abortionismurder.org :stickout:

Maybe I'm wrong. Nasty stuff, but the anti-abortion psychos will take any nasty image they can get - I bet you half of these pictures were stillbirths or were extremely late-term abortions (which you aren't suppose to have anyway, and that's the fault of the mother), or possibly incomplete miscarriages where the remaining fetus had to be sucked out. Anyways, to answer your question, there are many different ways abortions are performed. I'm taking this directly from abortionismurder.org - note that I am pro-choice, but I doubt that this information is invalid, since it simply explains the procedures (and why would they BS about that?). And there are no nasty images on this particular page, except for some clean illustrations.

http://www.abortionismurder.com/methods.shtml

Here's a prettier page:

http://www.irlc.org/medical/methods.htm

And some more information:

http://www.abortionfacts.com/learn/methods.asp
http://www.familylifepcc.net/abortioninfo.htm

No nasty pictures on any of them ;) Actually, searching wouldn't have hurt your eyes any - none of the pages I've opened had any gross pictures.

I think s/he went here these pretty nasty or cool depends on your flavor

http://abortionno.org/pictures.html

But what I find interesting is they claim this is a life, then I guess you can make the claim they are posting child porn.

Originally posted by secludo
Something tells me you came across abortionismurder.org :stickout:YES, that was the horrifying site I came across.

I've always had a great misunderstanding regarding the issue of abortion, now I've come to realize how terrible the entire aspect is. (IMHO, at least).

What can I say here ?

that there is a difference between the words 'abortion' and 'termination' ?
should I attempt to explain the zygote ?
that there is a stong group of (mostly male) people (predominantly male where I come from) who seem to delight in finding some awful pictures ?
should I say that these same people should look at pictures of battered children, of dead children in war zones, of raped children, burnt children etc
that I could I try to point out that a zygote is no more a child than one teaspoon of semen is a football crowd ?
should I ask the gender of the original poster and subsequent posters ?

seriously synthetic, skelley1, dreanhoboe .. have you had, or are you considering, a termination ?

Personally, I think abortion as a form of birth control is atrocious, and to assume simply because someone is male that they shouldn't have an opinion or isn't allowed one, is a complete farce and a cop-out.

I am a parent, and I've heard my child's heartbeat at a stage where many millions of women have had abortions. The pictures don't lie, if you believe they do, then I pity you. I have many friends who've had abortions and it's sad because these so-called "physicians" never gave them proper counseling. Why? many reasons I'm sure, but probably because they would lose all their business if they told them the truth.

The result of that lack of education is that of the 3 women that I know that had these abortions, all of them experience horrendous guilt and say they would never do it again. I think that's the greatest scam of the century, someone has managed to convince us along the way, that a zygote (fetus or any stage)is not a child in the making.

Just a quick little note, there have been roughly 38 MILLION abortions performed in the USA since Roe v Wade. That figure horrifies me, but really doesn't surprise me. We live in a disposable society, after all.

You may find it odd enough that I'm agnostic, and I don't champion pro-life causes, personally I think it's up to the Supreme Court, but to attempt to strip my right to an opinion simply because I do not carry the child is an insult. Ask any dad...

I spoke to my wife about this during lunch, and she pointed out that in 9 months, a zygote is typically more than a zygote, whereas a teaspoon of semen is still a teaspoon of semen(yuck!)

No one said you weren't allowed an opinion :confused:

I've also heard a child's heartbeat at that same stage - but unlike you, I've also felt him kick from inside of me. Not like it matters, but you pointed it out as if you were the only one and I thought I would point out that I've actually BEEN pregnant, while you've had a partner who was or is.

I did not say that the pictures lie, but many of the pictures are of 20+ week old fetuses, and it is truth that you are NOT suppose to have an abortion at that stage - those women, if they had waited only a few more weeks, could have had a child that had a 50% chance of living outside the womb. That's why late-term abortions are sad. Miscarriages that are incomplete, the remains of the fetus is removed in the same way that abortions are done -- I've known a few people who have had miscarrages, one at 18 weeks (which is also uncommon, miscarriages past 13 weeks), who had to have a D&E to get the remaining part of the fetus out. I wouldn't be surprised if a picture of this naturally dead fetus was taken and the nasty image of a poor miscarried baby was spread across the internet, labelled as an abortion, when it in fact was not.

My aunt also had 3 abortions when she was a young teenager, mainly because she grew up in a religious family and was afraid of what would happen. She now has one child, who literally is the light of her life, and is unable to have more. Clearly anyone would suspect that this is because of the abortions she had. I didn't know about her having any abortions until I got pregnant at 18 -- that's when my mom told me. I also find this figure very sad, but it doesn't mean I'll go blow up a Planned Parenthood.

Just a few days ago on the news it was mentioned that a teenager killed her infant baby and threw her in the backyard of her neighbor's house in Stockton, CA. Don't you think it would have been better if this selfish, immature, irresponsible young lady had had an abortion at 8 weeks rather than going until she gave birth at 40 weeks and killing her child when she gave birth, and disposing of the small corpse in such a disgusting way -- throwing it out like yesterday's trash? The autopsy reported that the child had air in her lungs before she died, and was not stillborn. That is much more disgusting that any abortion, and much, much more tragic.

I think that the reason most people think men shouldn't have an opinion is simple: See an abortion protest on TV, and over half of the people there holding signs are male. That is ridiculous, kind of how the mothers debate over male issues (circumcision) more than fathers debate over it. It's not that they shouldn't have an opinion, it's that the men, who don't experience it, are the ones who care the most and have the strongest opinions - the women just want them to shut up until they develop a uterus that can be implanted in them.

As far as my opnion goes -- first of all, I do not believe in abortion past the first trimester of pregnancy, and feel it should be done even sooner than that (under 13 weeks, preferrably in the first MONTH of pregnancy if you find out that soon). At this time, there is a zygote in me the size of a pin head, and quite frankly, I don't feel that a non-breathing, non-feeling, non-thinking zygote smaller than my fingernail should have more control over my body than I do -- being that I am a living, breathing, feeling, thinking individual who has, and should have, the right to make a choice over what happens with my body, and my life.

I'm sorry, I got carried away. I think I went a bit off-topic.

oh, you spoke to your wife eh ?
and that makes your words have some validity ?
do you have a uterus yourself ?
will you still love me tomorrow ?

I don't tell males what to do with their sperm
and of course yours is always just for the purpose of creating a zygote and nothing else, not one of the little buggers dropped off on the way anywhere along their way to their destiny did they ?

never once in your whole life !

they all ended up turning into cute little babies that you look at in photos

I admire your self control

Well, I respect your opinion, although I feel you obviously believe I shouldn't even have one, but I will say this...if you can see no difference between sperm and a zygote, then it truly is no wonder to me why you support abortion so strongly.

As for the validity of my words, they are the same as my wife's words, who is carrying a child at present, need more validation than that?

Dig this, if you murder a pregnant woman, you will be charged with double homicide.

I also never made a reference to blowing up Planned Parenthood?

Secludo, I once heard a woman say that a man's involvment is about 10 seconds, that made me sad, I believe the man's involvment is a lifetime. I too, also direct most of my opinion towards 2nd and especially 3rd trimester abortions, which still represent a staggering number of the abortions performed.

Susannad, settle down, I'm not attacking you personally, I'm attacking the notion that I don't deserve an opinion simply because I don't carry the child.

Funny how . . .
Many men speak up when it comes to abortion, yet how many need a panternity suit to step up to their responsabilities?
Women want to have control of their bodies, yet where was their control moments before the conception?

I say if you want to have control, take control.
For men, this means that you should be thinking: if this woman isn't one you are likely (or willing) to spend the rest of your life with, then why would you do something that may result in a child?
For women, this means that you should be thinking: if this man doesn't think you are good enough to be his wife, then he isn't good enough to share in a moment that may result in a child.
Every child deserves a Mom and a Dad full time, that's why it takes two to produce one.

I have seen many ignorant views on all sides of relationships, but the one that apalls me the most, is the one where one or both of the partners knows they cannot (due to religion) or will not marry. It's bad enough they are just wasting each others time, and ruining their chances of finding thr right mate, but they are sleeping together, which will surely deprive a child of having two loving parents in one loving home.
What a shame.
Time to get rid of the dual standards.
If men want to start arguing about abortion, then they better start being more responsable when dispensing their sperm.
Women, step outside of dream land and listen to his words again. Do they really match his actions?

One more thing about the words 'abortion' and 'termination'. A very good friend had a miscarriage, and was off work for a few days. She didn't want anyones false sympathy, and told no one except me. The office where she worked, however, handled health ins. claims manually. Now if the doctor had performed the abortion instead of her body, he would have used the word 'termination'. But he didn't, so the office lady saw the word abortion on the claim the doctor filled out, and told everyone the girl had an abortion.
That girl ended up quitting her job rather than argue the terminology with a bunch of nosey and cruel people.

So now my words to everybody: Don't judge others, as most peoples harshest judge is already themselves.

Well, I respect your opinion, although I feel you obviously believe I shouldn't even have one, but I will say this...if you can see no difference between sperm and a zygote, then it truly is no wonder to me why you support abortion so strongly.

I don't "support" abortion. I'm not "pro-abortion" -- as in, I would like more women to have abortions or would encourage a woman to have an abortion. I am pro-CHOICE. As in, I feel that any woman who wishes to should have the right to CHOOSE to have an abortion, rather than having a child she does not want or cannot properly care for. Any woman who is going to MURDER her child once it is outside of the womb and breathing should have the choice to have an abortion. Any raped woman who does not want to bring a child conceived should have the choice to have an abortion. There's a big difference supporting abortion and supporting the right for a woman to choose to have an abortion. Personally, I probably could not have an abortion - ever. Before I did get pregnant, I always told myself and my fiancé that I would have an abortion if I became pregnant. I lied to myself and was all along, because I probably never would have, and I didn't. Now I'm 19 years old and have an almost 11-month old, and I still tell myself that I'll have an abortion if I get pregnant again until I'm about 22 or so (which is when I'd like to have my next child), but in reality I probably would not have an abortion if I found out I was pregnant tomorrow -- although I'd be pissed, because this time I'm on birth control :stickout:

As for the validity of my words, they are the same as my wife's words, who is carrying a child at present, need more validation than that?

What does it matter if your wife is carrying a child at present? :confused: You can hear your child's heartbeat through a machine stuck to your wife's pregnant belly, and I can stick my head up to my son's chest and hear it. I don't really see what you are getting at with this. All you are doing is making it seem as though, being that your wife is pregnant and you can hear your kid's heartbeat, you are allowed to have more of an opinion than anyone else??! :confused:

Dig this, if you murder a pregnant woman, you will be charged with double homicide.

No, you won't. Not here you won't -- about 15 minutes from my house a man (Nikolai Soltys) killed 6 of his family members last summer when I was pregnant (2001) - including his pregnant wife, which, based on what you just said would make 7, and he was charged with 6 murders. Though he ended up killing himself in jail not long after, that's not the point.

I also never made a reference to blowing up Planned Parenthood?

Um, no, you didn't.

Secludo, I once heard a woman say that a man's involvment is about 10 seconds, that made me sad, I believe the man's involvment is a lifetime. I too, also direct most of my opinion towards 2nd and especially 3rd trimester abortions, which still represent a staggering number of the abortions performed.

I agree that the involvement is a lifetime, but the woman that said that may have meant that the CREATION of the child is about 10 seconds, because after the man has his orgasm and impregnates the woman, he really sits back and waits while the woman uses HER body to feed and nurish their child. That is truth, there is no denying it. The man can go to all the doctor's visits and be a great coach during delivery, but he isn't really involved in the creation of the baby after the sperm meets the egg.

I find it ironic that those groups who claim to be strongest advocates of 'childrens rights' are the same groups who fight hardest to deny those rights to the unborn. But then, in their world, 'childrens rights' means government hijacking of parental rights.

Because a father does not carry the child does not mean he does not experience any of the pains that the woman he loves most is going through. It also does not mean that his love for their child is less than hers.

The feminist movement has attempted to strip the father of any connection to the child beyond the pleasure he recieves at conception. They have also turned abortion into the sacrament of their 'religion'. Calling a potential human being a 'zygote' does not lessen the fact that it IS a life in the making and the willful ending of a life is murder.

You can try to ease your conscience by using nondescript terms for what is really happening if you need to. But, the fact that you need to do that to sterilize the process is telling.

This is maybe off topic, but there has been cases where men have been raped but and are then forced to pay support payments for the child produced as a result.

secludo...dont we punish people who murder other people? that should be the same for planned parenthood places (not saying to bomb them or anything.)

I don't really see where that fits in... hmm. True, although I don't think male rape is very common amongst older men, only in younger boys who are less able to defend themselves (like a woman in a male-rapes-female case).

Child support is an entire other issue, though, and I think the number of non-child support payers outweighs the child support payers like tenfold (could be wrong, don't know the stats on it).

On the news a few months ago there was some guy who had been paying child support for a child for like 5 years -- he then found out that the child may not be his and had a paternity test done. Child was not his, judge ordered that he will not be reimbursed for the money he paid for 5 years, and he would have to continue paying child support. Has anyone else heard of this? I might have some facts that are wrong, this was a little while ago and I can't remember the specific details.

Originally posted by interactive
secludo...dont we punish people who murder other people? that should be the same for planned parenthood places (not saying to bomb them or anything.)

Abortion does NOT fit the legal definition of murder.

Murder is defined as "illegal killing with malice aforethought."

FYI aforethough means premeditated and im sure someone thinks about a abortion before they do it...

Who defines the term 'illegal killing'? The government? Does that then mean that those governments that approve the killing of their citizens are not guilty of murder?

By what right does any government sanction the taking of an innocent life?

did I say I was pro abortion ?

I am pro choice and yes, I am a feminist , I have had a termination and am also the mother of 5 beautiful people, I did have 6 but my eldest son was killed a couple of years ago

and I will support any woman who makes her own choices

I think it's best to agree to disagree on this subject...as much as I want to take to task some of your(secludo's) critique of my last statement.
:)

Originally posted by interactive
FYI aforethough means premeditated and im sure someone thinks about a abortion before they do it...

FYI, I said MALICE aforethought. I doubt that women who abort feel malice towards their "victim" :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Lamont
Who defines the term 'illegal killing'? The government? Does that then mean that those governments that approve the killing of their citizens are not guilty of murder?

By what right does any government sanction the taking of an innocent life?

Durr.. I think it's a tad bit obvious who defines murder (aside from Webster, I guess). The same little organization that defines those degrees of murder, manslaughter, and so on and so fourth. The government does not "approve" abortions -- Bush doesn't run around looking for women who wish to abort and shake their hand to tell them that it's all right. It's a written law, it's legal. Another reason why it can't be considered murder -- because murder is illegal, and abortions are not.

And the government is not taking an innocent life, nor is any woman who aborts. The loss of fetal life at the beginning of pregnancy is nothing really offensive or horrible, anymore then the loss of life for a few cells. It'll never matter to a fetus whether it is born or not, it'll never be offended if it lost it's own life. A fetus has no ability to cherish or hold interest in life. Life should only be protected when it is in the expressed interest of the individual.

I remember a few years back on a debate board, a few pro-life people without any knowledge on the subject (or anything else in life) came and started yelling, "HOW WULD U FEEL IF UR MOTHER ABORTED U?" I swear I almost pissed myself laughing at the stupidity.

I get the feeling that another reason why women hate men who have strong opinions on abortion is because most men do not know much about pregnancy or the development of the fetus.

And to anyone who implied that I'm a feminist - I'm not, in any way, shape, or form. I don't see how being pro-choice makes me that...

Frankly, I don't care what any government has to say on the subject. Government does not grant rights, it can only protect or violate them. Murder is the taking of innocent human life. No one has the authority define it otherwise.

Originally posted by Lamont
Frankly, I don't care what any government has to say on the subject. Government does not grant rights, it can only protect or violate them. Murder is the taking of innocent human life. No one has the authority define it otherwise.

And the government is not taking an innocent life, nor is any woman who aborts. The loss of fetal life at the beginning of pregnancy is nothing really offensive or horrible, anymore then the loss of life for a few cells. It'll never matter to a fetus whether it is born or not, it'll never be offended if it lost it's own life. A fetus has no ability to cherish or hold interest in life. Life should only be protected when it is in the expressed interest of the individual.

"It'll never matter to a fetus whether it is born or not, it'll never be offended if it lost it's own life. A fetus has no ability to cherish or hold interest in life."

If you were dead, would you be offended? No, you are dead, am I wrong?

Originally posted by dreamHOBO
"It'll never matter to a fetus whether it is born or not, it'll never be offended if it lost it's own life. A fetus has no ability to cherish or hold interest in life."

If you were dead, would you be offended? No, you are dead, am I wrong?

Um, yeah, that's kind of the whole point. The difference, however, is that, at the very least, 90% of aborted fetuses do not have the ability to feel pain. When a living, breathing, feeling, thinking human (not a sack of cells) is OUTSIDE of the womb and is murdered, they FEEL the pain. As I said, the majority of males do not even know about the developmental process of the embryo/fetus! See, your sperm, it doesn't have a heart and a nervous system or other vital organs. These develop over a period of 40 weeks due to the umbilically-transferred nourishment of the mother, and if an abortion is performed at the PROPER time frame, the fetus will NOT have developed to anything other than a sack of cells the size of a pinhead, that cannot FEEL anything! Literally.

The other difference that makes your response laughable is that a person who has been born, who has not spent a few weeks in utero and then was aborted, came OUTSIDE of the world and EXPERIENCED life. The more a fetus grows, the more rights it should have. I don't feel that an embryo (which is what this sack of cells is called until about 13 weeks) should have any rights. A fetus at say, 20 weeks gestation, is different.

I'm with you secludo

Originally posted by secludo
The difference, however, is that, at the very least, 90% of aborted fetuses do not have the ability to feel pain.

This argument is flawed. Surely anyone with an imagination will agree that we should not judge the destruction of a fetus nor a human being based upon the amount of pain inflicted. Or need I enumerate the ways one could end another person's life painlessly?

Originally posted by secludo
The other difference that makes your response laughable is that a person who has been born, who has not spent a few weeks in utero and then was aborted, came OUTSIDE of the world and EXPERIENCED life.

Again flawed. "OUTSIDE of the world" or outside of the womb? The same could be said at the 35th week of gestation, and I believe even the most uncompassionate person would consider it barbaric to tear an 8 1/2-week-old fetus from the womb.

Just so you know I'm neither pro-choice or pro-life (or perhaps I'm a bit of both). I just can't stand botched reasoning such as this.

A friend of mine who was adopted was the child of a 15 year old girl. On his car he has the bumper sticker "Thanks Mom for choosing adoption over murder"

On the topic, some procedures and terms..

Abortion - the termination of a pregnancy.
Dilitation and Extraction, D&X, (Partial Birth Abortion) - the baby is delivered feet first. The head is left inside the birth canal. A sharp instrument is used to puncture the rear of the skull at the base and the brains are sucked out. Once dead, the baby is fully delivered.
Dilatation & Curettage (D&C) - Abortive procedure where the abortionists inserts a curved knife into the placenta and cuts the baby up into pieces before it is suctioned out. Done in the first trimester.
Dilatation & Evacuation - An abortive procedure where an abortionist inserts a pliers-like instrument into the uterus. The abortionist then grabs whatever part of the baby it comes in contact with. Then, by twisting and pulling, the baby is dismembered, killed, and pulled from the womb.
Mifepristone or Mifeprex (RU-486) - a pill taken after conception that stops the absorption of Progesterone, a hormone necessary for sustaining pregnancy. Taken with misoprostol that causes the uterus to contract and eject the newly conceived baby.
Partial Birth Abortion - An abortive method where all the baby is delivered except the head. With its body outside of the vaginal canal, the doctor then uses a sharp instrument to pierce the back of the skull of the baby and scramble the brains, killing it. Then the baby is fully delivered.
Pregnancy Reduction - An abortive method of reducing the number of babies in the womb (twins, triplets, etc.) by injecting a poison into the heart of one or more of the babies while still in the womb.
Saline Amniocentesis - An abortive method where a highly concentrated salt solution is injected into the placenta. The baby takes the salt into the lungs as well as swallowing it. After more than an hour, the baby dies and the mother delivers the body a day or two later.


Sorry if you disagree with the use of the word "baby" in the definitions.

Originally posted by voltron


This argument is flawed. Surely anyone with an imagination will agree that we should not judge the destruction of a fetus nor a human being based upon the amount of pain inflicted. Or need I enumerate the ways one could end another person's life painlessly?

Again flawed. "OUTSIDE of the world" or outside of the womb? The same could be said at the 35th week of gestation, and I believe even the most uncompassionate person would consider it barbaric to tear an 8 1/2-week-old fetus from the womb.

Just so you know I'm neither pro-choice or pro-life (or perhaps I'm a bit of both). I just can't stand botched reasoning such as this.

Actually, neither of these arguments are flawed. The whole point of what was said is based on the ridiculous statement of another. What is meant by what I said is that, at such an early stage in development, the embryo is NOTHING. It cannot feel, it cannot think, it cannot comprehend life, nor has it known life, or is missing out on anything. It doesn't harm it, it is non-sentient. It is not a baby, not a human being, and cannot be classified as such. Nothing has developed, and THAT is the difference between a developing embryo and a living, breathing human being - or even a fetus past, at the very least, the 20th week of pregnancy.

What would you classify a human being as? If you'll admit to me that you feel a human being is something that has no heart, no brain, no kidneys, no bones, muscles, fingers, toes, eyes, sexual organs, or anything else that you and I have (or if you'd like to agree with the crowd missing body limbs or unecessary organs, anything vital to life), then I'll shut up. Otherwise, virtually everything that is said is a moot point, because a 4-week old sack of cells has none of these, nor the ability to comprehend life (it doesn't have a fscking brain!!). This isn't much of a debate when all I've done is spent my time educating people who don't know what they are talking about.

As far as the comment about the 35th week -- actually, you are incorrect. The same cannot be said for that age in gestation. A fetus at that stage in life CAN comprehend life, it CAN feel, it CAN think -- in fact, by this time and earlier, the fetus is actually practicing breathing methods inside the womb and swallowing amniotic fluid. The fetus can move and kick, suck his thumb, yawn, hiccup, urinate, and so on and so fourth. There is a difference between aborting a sack of cells that has NO ability to live outside of the womb and killing a 35-week old fetus that could easily live had it been delivered at that time. That's right - I did say killing, because as I've stated many times before, I feel that abortion past the 13-week of pregnancy is wrong, and a 35-week old fetus being "aborted" should be considered murder.

If people were alowed to diskuss condoms and birth-control in schools in the US, maybe there wouldn't be that many abortions?
Also, if clinics weren't pickeded and blown up, the women using them would get better counsiling.
And, if the budding life is outside the womb or something else is terribly wrong, shouldn't the woman have a right to an abortion? Then she can live and if she is lucky, have a new life that is healthy without problems, and if she can't have any children of her own, then she is alive to adopt someone.

Originally posted by Reptilian Feline
If people were alowed to diskuss condoms and birth-control in schools in the US, maybe there wouldn't be that many abortions?

Of course, every time some school tries to do that the ulta-religious complain. In fact, because we have to prevent the ultra-religious from anything offensive we mostly teach absistence-only sex education. Absistence doesn't stop the guy from not wanting to have sex, but using birth control will prevent unwanted pregnancies.

Back on topic. I'm not sure we'd have fewer abortions by having more birth control available. The key to reducing abortions is teaching your children proper values. (proper according to yourself)

yes tell your children

and now could we give this topic a rest do you think ?

Of course. Maybe one of the mods can close it now?

puh-lease before I blow an artery

Originally posted by secludo
What would you classify a human being as?

I'm not interested in defining what a "human being" is. I'm not qualified to and frankly, neither are you. Besides, that's pure semantics and we all know how productive it is to debate semantics. I do believe, however, that classifying a fetus that's 121-days-old apart from one that's 120-days-old (or any magic number for that matter) is a convenience and a gross over-simplification.

I think a far more interesting and challenging view is the deterministic one -- that is, whether a life-in-the-making constitutes a life itself. As much as you think you're "educating people who don't know what they are talking about", condescension aside, you may be surprised to hear that most people who are against abortion are also completely indifferent to the biological/physiological details that seem to be the crux of your argument.

I haven't formed an opinion on whether a life-in-the-making is as important as a life itself but it would be interesting to hear yours if you have one.

Originally posted by secludo
As far as the comment about the 35th week -- actually, you are incorrect.

"came OUTSIDE of the world"

Read those five words again and tell me if they make any sense and/or what a reasonable person would glean from them. Make your arguments coherent THEN tell them they're wrong.

God, that's irritating.

I haven't formed an opinion on whether a life-in-the-making is as important as a life itself but it would be interesting to hear yours if you have one.
As a zoology major I took an embryology course inhabited, primarily, by health science students. We dealt with samples of fetal tissue from every stage of development, amazing stuff. Inevitably, we discussed abortion (at least one of my former classmates is now an OBGYN). For me, it revolved (and still does) around the issue Voltron stated. Tissue, in its many forms, is a scientific curiosity. When I see pictures of aborted fetuses I find them fascinating, including those above. If a physician in any developed nation performed a late term procedure, and documented it in such a way, it was done for a very good reason. However, when you approach any deceased individual from the perspective of what may have been it is troubling, more so in the case of children that never had a chance at life. Is abortion wrong? I don't know, I (also) don't think it is a decision that men can make. I have, though, taken a course in legal medicine. Some of the research I did involved pouring through old forensic textbooks - head to your local university library and take a look. Texts prior to the seventies have entire chapters devoted to women that died as a result of back alley abortions. These weren't street girls folks, they were people that would be surfing the internet today. I don't disagree with any of you, there is no right or wrong on this one.

I'm an American in Public schools, and we had extensive sex ed including instruction of how to put condoms on, use diaphrams, dental dams, ect. Our parents just had to sign a paper if they didn't want us to take the class (It was a course in physical education).