Graphic designer?

Web programmer (php/asp/mysql)?

what do you think is the best paid job in the computer industry?

Well, if you want to include databases (mysql), why not include an Oracle DBA?

Best paid job? Engineers.

Also, programmers dont have a thing to code on if the hardware isnt there. You will always need hardware its never free, but software is free.

network engineers/ general computer engineers make alot...but it also depends theres tons of people out there who can code asp,php,cfm...but theres not alot of "real" programmers...

interactive : Define "real" programmers.

Originally posted by AmericanD
interactive : Define "real" programmers.

I think he means someone who uses FrontPAge to make an "about my cat" website sint really a programmer. Someone who writes an entire dynamic website from scratch, including backend, syndication, and database intergration is.

CE's are generally paid the most off the bat, I think its around 55-65k, CS's are paid just a tad under more or less

Originally posted by AmericanD
interactive : Define "real" programmers.

This is all just my opinion but coding like php,cfm etc is just coding. Theres not structure to it. You know what I mean? Now like c,cpp,assembler, etc is structured. Structured Programming is real programming...

Frontpage can turn out some good pages though.

Originally posted by interactive
This is all just my opinion but coding like php,cfm etc is just coding. Theres not structure to it. You know what I mean? Now like c,cpp,assembler, etc is structured. Structured Programming is real programming...

There is structure to it. I believe you are talking parsed vs compiled and executed though.

A language without structure would be something like HTML, its just that, a markup language, it doesnt do anything.

But php and cfm do have structure, they just are parsed, not compiled/executed. Though you can do a lot more with something like C++ (down with C#!) and Perl than php.

Originally posted by VanCoke
Frontpage can turn out some good pages though.

No.

First off, the code is a mess, it isnt html 4 compliant, and it is limited to "about my cat" web pages. Why not use Word to design your websites?

And java sucks.

I think software engineers tend to get far more than web developers, since the webdevelopment industry is getting pretty crowded these days.

I would say Software Programmers make the most in the Computer Industry. And java sucks, try C#.

Originally posted by Acronym BOY


There is structure to it. I believe you are talking parsed vs compiled and executed though.

A language without structure would be something like HTML, its just that, a markup language, it doesnt do anything.

But php and cfm do have structure, they just are parsed, not compiled/executed. Though you can do a lot more with something like C++ (down with C#!) and Perl than php.



No.

First off, the code is a mess, it isnt html 4 compliant, and it is limited to "about my cat" web pages. Why not use Word to design your websites?

And java sucks.

first explain why java sucks? I seriously doubt you have a argument there. PHP,ASP,CFM etc does not have much structure to it. You must not use either that much.

I'm against Java too. What is the thing java can do and C++ cannot ?

when wasthe last time you made a applet with c++?

Well if Pininfarina would be a graphic designer than designer would earn more alse programer is making more...

refrase that dn im confused please

I'd say a web programmer because just about anytone these days can spend a good 24 hour period and learn how to make some pretty decent graphics using Photoshop or Paintshop.

not anyone ive been using ps for like 6 months and i look like a nooby loser...

Originally posted by interactive
not anyone ive been using ps for like 6 months and i look like a nooby loser...

heh. Looks like you need to find something else to do. :D

Graphics Designer IMHO. Anybody can learn how to code but it takes actual talent to design graphics.

And Java does suck, but C++ isn't that much better ;)

im still waiting for you to tell me why java sucks?

Originally posted by interactive
I seriously doubt you have a argument there. PHP,ASP,CFM etc does not have much structure to it. You must not use either that much.

Lets lookie here:

Standard Structure of a Page (http://www.asp-php.net/asphp2/en/tutorial/asp-php/structure.asp)

..and now here:

PHP Structure Reprinted form Internet Design Magazine (http://www.wdvl.com/Authoring/Languages/PHP/Welcome/structure.html)

..and why not look at devshed:

Building a PHP Based Mail Client: Structure and Syntax (http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/PHP/PHPMail/PHPMail2/page4.html)

Originally posted by interactive
when wasthe last time you made a applet with c++?

When was the last time you wrote an office suite in java?

OpenOffice.org is written in C++.

http://www.openoffice.org/about.html

The source is written in C++ and delivers language-neutral and scriptable functionality, including Java(TM) APIs

Oh yay, Java APIs. *yawn* Its written in C++ for a reason (many reasons actually) can you guess what they are?

What does MS recomend for programming with Active Directories?

http://www.microsoft.com/uk/mspress/books/book17556.htm

C++, VB, and VBS.

Apache is written in?

http://www.linuxselfhelp.com/HOWTO/Apache-Overview-HOWTO-12.html

C

mySQL is written in?

http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/C.html

C

(You will find a bunch of people asking why it isnt in Perl and the answer is simple, speed.

See here:

http://www.geocrawler.com/archives/3/8/1999/4/0/1651170/

C is faster than perl and much more so that Java, but Ill get into Java's speed (or lackthereof) later.)

Now if you want to write a little tiny "applet" go ahead, I prefer to stick to small shell scripts instead of thowing on sh1ty run-time enviroments. Java is unecessary.

What is the linux kernel written in?

http://www.geocrawler.com/archives/3/8/1999/4/0/1651170/

99.99% C

And Linus even says he isnt a C fundamentalist. Look what else that page says:

C isn't considered very portable. Java is, but would you want the kernel written in Java? Maybe Common LISP would be nice? ARRRGH!!!

The day the linux kernel is Java is the day I drop it. But that wont ever happen. Speed being a very good reason.

Originally posted by interactive
first explain why java sucks?

Well it is much slower. Take this for example:

Speed

It is slow. Compared to compiled C programs, Java loses every time. Try time tar xf nonexistentfile and time jar xf nonexistentfile. On an otherwise idle 440MHz UltraSparcII running Solaris 8 with the Java 2 JRE 1.3.1, it takes jar over half a second just to report that it can't find the file! tar, on the other hand, takes just over 1/100th second. So what's half a second, anyway? Well, times several million hits on your website per day, it's a whole lot. But, you say, it depends so much on your JRE! So, say I, show me any JRE as fast as native code. And if Sun, the inventor of Java, can't manage to make a decently fast JRE, it doesn't inspire great confidence, does it? Even if there are great JREs out there, the fact that one has to go hunt them down to get decent performance is a strike against Java. C programs pretty much work or they don't.

Sun's own JRE is sh1tty, why would I want to deal with that, when I can deal with native code? Ever?

Now imagine what some of the wanna be run-time envirments are like, even worse and more bugs than a 10 year old corpse. :rolleyes:

Not type-safe

Java is not type-safe because it allows a very powerful way of organizing the type-space at run-time (through user-extensible class loaders ). This power can be utilized to write a program that exposes some flawed design decisions in the Java Virtual Machine. Specifically, one can produce a class A and an associated ersatz class A' which can "spoof" A: its name N is the same as A, but it defines members (fields and methods) arbitrarily differently from A. A "bridge " class B can be defined which delivers to a class D (for which the name N is associated with A') an instance of A. D can then operate on this instance as if it is an instance of A', thus violating type-safety.

Violation of the Principle of Least Astonishment

For those of you, who dont know what the PLA is:

A system and its commands should behave the way most people would predict, that is, the system should operate with "least astonishment."

Java's return doesn't always. By using finally clauses, control flow may do very surprising things. Consider this:

for(;;) {
try {
return 1;
} finally {
break;
}
}
return -1;

What value does this code return? -1. Try this:

while (true) {
try {
return;
} finally {
continue;
}
}
/* NOT REACHED */

This code is an infinite loop! Both of these are violations of the Principle of Least Astonishment.

Some rants

http://my.execpc.com/~saruman/rants/rants_java.html
What the hell is it with Java? I don't care what you call it: Java, Javascript, Java Virtual Machine, Java Pain In My Ass 2.05 or whatever! If it has the word Java in it ****ing sucks. Why does Java never seem to work quite right? Okay fine, so even this page has Javascript in it for the TrueDoc font thing. But that doesn't work in Mac IE and Windows IE needs user intervention before it will work (maybe). Sure it mostly works (sometimes), but that's an exception. Java-loaded webpages are always flaking out on you. They do cool things at times (such as navigation menus that jump to the top of the browser window when you scroll down the page) But even those things are flaky, slow and just overall kludgy-feeling to the user.

You know those Gnutella client file sharing things? I speak of Limewire in particular. ****ing Java-based something or other going on there. You've gotta install some extra Java **** before it will run. It's slow. The ****ing window redraw is slow and flaky and the scroll wheel doesn't work. Why? Probably something to do with the half-assed lameness called Java. Is it the programmers' fault? Or does Java intrinsically suck? Why does Java suck so much? Why is it always causing problems? Why do people bother writing these acres of Java code for webpages when basic HTML will suffice? Show me something that Java can do that is not feasible doing any other way and I'll change my tune.

Web browsers have this thing which is only useful to programmers called a Java console. What does this do? Well, it's sole purpose is to display hundreds of Javascript errors on the webpage. Thank goodness you can elect to turn off Java error reporting in browsers, otherwise the ****ing things are popping up right and left. DON'T INTERUPT THE USER!!! Who the **** gives a **** about Java errors? Like what the **** is the user supposed to do about it? Can I rewrite the code? Can I fix the error? NO! So why are you telling me this bull****?

Someone please tell me I'm crazy and I've got it all wrong. Someone please explain to me WHY I hate Java. There has to be a rational explanation for the sheer half-assed nature of Java right?

Try here:

http://www.artima.com/legacy/answers/Apr2001/messages/628.html

(I think they are trying to tell you something, it might have to do with speed)

Java is probably the most-hyped programming language ever, and deserves almost none of its fame. All of it's promises can be fulfilled by existing languages or moved to standardized protocol design instead of a language. There is nothing really new that Java brings to the table. Sun is much better at marketing than at creating new languages. HP and IBM products are often technically superior or better deals, but those companies have not learned how to market the way Sun and Microsoft have.

Perhaps Java's only real claim to fame is being the first language designed for web applet usage; but even that niche is being filled by Flash players and others because Java didn't do applets very well. Now it is trying to remake itself as a server language. However, it is too slow and too unpredictable (GC) for systems work and too strong-typed for application database work. Java is in for a long struggle.

Wasnt it you who said "when wasthe last time you made a applet with c++?? Niche market that no one cares for. If you want to write little aplets fine, but dont compare your run-time enviroments with native code that runs fast,er more efficiently, and on top of it, it used to develop APPLICATIONS.

I really dont feel like typing this all in, but go here and maybe youll learn why Java sucks:

http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/javacrit.htm

Originally posted by filburt1
Anybody can learn how to code but it takes actual talent to design graphics.

But how many people can code well? Efficiently? Quickly?

And most important, innovativly?

Anyone can code, but those people make the "about my cat websites". Those that know what they are doing expand boundaries. And get paid much more for doing it. It takes talent to code as well. And even if you have a nice looking site, if the code isnt there, it doesnt matter anyhow, functionality should always be a priority over "pretty colors" (*cough*macs*cough*).

Im bored and in IRC so I decided to ask others why they think Java sucks, here are the answers that I got thrown back at me:


No parameterized types: this kills generic programming and prevents any sort of type-safe container. This is way and beyond my biggest problem with java. Types are your friend; this catches errors at compile time instead of later.
No destructors: finalize sucks. I want a destructor with well defined destruction semantics: there is no way to guarantee that objects are GC'd. This prevents you from doing intelligent things like having a file class that closes the file in the destructor. Because you can't guarantee it will be closed immediately you must do it yourself. Retarded... a definite step backwards.
Bad multiple inheritance: interfaces are too weak. You *want* to be able to write code in an interface.
No references to simple types. The object vers of simple types are immutable!
Lacks a standard preprocessor. Stuff like __FILE__ and __LINE__ are, again, your friends! This _really_ helps you when it comes time to debug.
No type decoration: const is a good thing and mutable are good... they allows lots of optimization. I could live w/o mutable, but not const.
checked exceptions. Ugh.
Need for a JVM. No need for a JVM. With C, you can just ship your 50k program, instead of your 50k program and a 10Mb+ JVM.
No memory mangement!!

Originally posted by interactive
You must not use either that much.

You know, its really not nice to make assumptions about people you dont know.

Let me know when you actually have some facts to back up all this garbage that you keep posting, until than, dont tell me what languages I know and which I dont.

Originally posted by interactive
im still waiting for you to tell me why java sucks?

Im still waiting for your response :rolleyes:

lol

I know someone who is a AS/400 programmer and makes about 85.00 a hour.. I am a sysadmin for a NT network(MCSE) and I make a hell of alot less than that..

/me reads the longest post here

Acronym BOY, step away from the keyboard before your fingers break off :eek: :D

Originally posted by Acronym BOY

No type decoration: const is a good thing and mutable are good... they allows lots of optimization. I could live w/o mutable, but not const.
Need for a JVM. No need for a JVM. With C, you can just ship your 50k program, instead of your 50k program and a 10Mb+ JVM.
No memory mangement!!

While I hate Java too, those last three are arguable:

There's the final keyword instead of const
The difference is that those 10 MB assure that your code runs anywhere and not just on the system upon which it was compiled
Garbage collection is built into the JVM and can sometimes be forced within a Java program

lol sorry i actually have a life hehe...anyways i still dont get your argument going to a meeting when i get back will continue and ill bring my facts into perspective...till then god speed ;)

BTW as a side note I was playing with REALbasic today (in history class :D). It seems like a cool language but really really simple. One of the compiler options is to build the code for Windows. :)

Edit: REALbasic is a programming language/IDE for the Mac.

ok this is the basic reason i like java (dont flame me ;)):
like i said above java applets rule nothing else compares you gotta agree on that.
i haven't heard of anyone making a crossplatform c,cpp,etc app in a while (actually ever).


I program in c, cpp, asm, and many other languages on a daily basis. Well cept for rad

Very basic C++ programs are cross-platform, when you get into IDEs and some file I/O things get different.

Graphics Designer IMHO. Anybody can learn how to code but it takes actual talent to design graphics.

I would disagree with that, anyone can learn how to program, anyone can also learn how to use photoshop. To be good at either is a different matter. To be good designer you need to be artistic. To be a good coder you need to be able to problem solve. I remember at high school most people in the my class could come up with solutions to anything other that the simplest of problems.

Originally posted by OKIHost
I know someone who is a AS/400 programmer and makes about 85.00 a hour.. I am a sysadmin for a NT network(MCSE) and I make a hell of alot less than that..

AS/400 is a whole nother story :D

Originally posted by filburt1
/me reads the longest post here

Acronym BOY, step away from the keyboard before your fingers break off :eek: :D

Thats nothing :p

Originally posted by filburt1
While I hate Java too, those last three are arguable:

There's the final keyword instead of const
The difference is that those 10 MB assure that your code runs anywhere and not just on the system upon which it was compiled
Garbage collection is built into the JVM and can sometimes be forced within a Java program


I know, they arent mine, but I decided to throw them in anyhow. I agree 100% on point number one.

Think of some AOL-using 35 year old who cant program his VCR using your software, do you really think he will bother with JVM's and things like that? Not really, he wants to be held by the hand through a basic install of even a C based application. JVMs will just cause him to go someplace else. Unless of course you include some osrt of JVM with your software that installs without teling you about it (prompt the user and give them a choice and they say no, than they will wonder why your app doesnt work). And than more advanced users will hate you for installing stuff they couldnt opt out of.

Point three... Yes, but no place clsoe to as powerful as C.

Originally posted by filburt1
(in history class :D)

:p

Originally posted by interactive
ok this is the basic reason i like java (dont flame me ;)):
like i said above java applets rule nothing else compares you gotta agree on that.

I did agree, java has a small niche market (and even than there are numerous issues, why do you think many browsers give you errors when there is bad java code, yet plow through the bad htmll and do their best without telling the user there is bad html?

I said:

Perhaps Java's only real claim to fame is being the first language designed for web applet usage; but even that niche is being filled by Flash players and others because Java didn't do applets very well. Now it is trying to remake itself as a server language. However, it is too slow and too unpredictable (GC) for systems work and too strong-typed for application database work.

Originally posted by interactive
i haven't heard of anyone making a crossplatform c,cpp,etc app in a while (actually ever).

This was answered by:

Originally posted by filburt1
Very basic C++ programs are cross-platform, when you get into IDEs and some file I/O things get different.

Exactly. C's nature is cross platfor, if programmers target a specific hardware/OS platform, thats their own fault and can not be hald agasint the language, which is by nature crossplatform.

And issues such as speed, use to write larger things from kernels to apps to suites, as well as throwing out PLA, not being type safe, and speed are all uncontested. (And speed means a lot, would you like your server to start behaving like a P2 450MHz? Not me.)

Originally posted by SplashHost.com
I would disagree with that, anyone can learn how to program, anyone can also learn how to use photoshop. To be good at either is a different matter. To be good designer you need to be artistic. To be a good coder you need to be able to problem solve. I remember at high school most people in the my class could come up with solutions to anything other that the simplest of problems.

Agreed. Anyone cna sit and learn how to copy code out of a book and make it work by fixing the three erronous lines, but how many people can sit down and in a month pop out a basic word processor? Or how many people can write a custom shopping cart in ASP from scratch in 3 weeks? Those are programmers.

People who can copy lines form here and there and move slowly through arent programmers. Just like poeople who make a smiley face in paint arent either. There are many people who say they are programmers but arent.

Perhaps Java's only real claim to fame is being the first language designed for web applet usage; but even that niche is being filled by Flash players and others because Java didn't do applets very well. Now it is trying to remake itself as a server language. However, it is too slow and too unpredictable (GC) for systems work and too strong-typed for application database work.


ok no offense but java actually wasn't designed for web applets...started out for microprocessors like microwaves and crap (know what i mean?)....then sun decided to come up with a name for it...talked to developers of it they thought up some names (dont remember exactly what they were) but they were too close (the names) to other languages at the time (like COBOL, BASIC , etc)..they were a bunch of coffee lovers (like myself) and named it java...

I agree with you there, C++ wasnt gonna cut it and Sun came up with java in 1990 (not sure about the year).

Actually, jump back to Sun 3/50's and ftping to prep.ai.mit.edu (thats where many learned to spell "anonymous"). Then quickly to the new X11 and arguably one of the first screen savers, xlock. Than NeWS with X11. Toss Sherdian (sp?) in there with Ed Frank and 4 others I think (maybe five). Star7, etc etc. Time goes on... Java is born.

I skipped a bunch and the dates are probably off, but its ancient history.

But the rest of it, the fact that it is a niche market, is the point I was tryin to get across when quoting that website (see the original long post for the site). Java is a niche market and included appliance operation and now includes web applets (which I am not too fond of anyhow, but thats just personal unfounded opinion and what I use the web for).

ok i have to say i agreed with you on quite a bit...so we've reached a agreement lol...

Originally posted by interactive
ok i have to say i agreed with you on quite a bit...so we've reached a agreement lol...

We cant agreee, we must fight! :D

Im not saying C is perfect, but for many purposes, C is a much better choice. Every language has its flaws and draw backs. Java just has too many for the type of programming I usually do, therefore I say it sucks! :p

Originally posted by interactive


first explain why java sucks? I seriously doubt you have a argument there. PHP,ASP,CFM etc does not have much structure to it. You must not use either that much.

What do you mean with PHP does not have much "structure" to it?
What language does have "structure" and how is that "structure" manifested ?

I'd say a web programmer because just about anytone these days can spend a good 24 hour period and learn how to make some pretty decent graphics using Photoshop or Paintshop.

I can prove you absolutely wrong on that. Graphic design takes a deep learning curve, and you don't just know how to design sites like Cooking.com (or some other professionally done site) in 24 hours. Probably 24 months. :)

Pretty decent graphics? You probably mean graphics that have just been slapped on with 20 or so pre-built filters. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by sasha
What do you mean with PHP does not have much "structure" to it?
What language does have "structure" and how is that "structure" manifested ?

Structure usually refers to the syntax of a language, each is unique, some are more alike than others though.

I think what he was getting at is that PHP is an interpeted language, as opposed to a compiled/executed language. Than there are also things like html which isnt really programming, but markup (as the name implies).

PHP's structure is not like perl or java apps or many other langugaes in that you can have something like this:

Your page
<html>
<head>
<title>foo bar</title>
</head>
<body>
Hello <?php include "http://foo.bar/world.inc" ?>
</body>
</html>

world.inc
world<br>

It is not very close to something like this:

#include <stdio.h>

main()
{
for(;;)
{
printf ("Hello World!\n");
}
}

or:

class HelloWorld {
public static void main (String args[]) {
for (;;) {
System.out.print("Hello World ");
}
}
}

The PHP version isnt really much at all is the point I think he was trying to make.

well, PHP does not have to be embed in the HTML (and IMHO it should not). You can , and actualy should use the classes, when that makes work easier. The thing I like about PHP is that you have a choice. You can do OO programming for larger projects, and you still have an option for simple <? include ... ?> for simple dynamic web page elements.

Originally posted by sasha
well, PHP does not have to be embed in the HTML (and IMHO it should not). You can , and actualy should use the classes, when that makes work easier. The thing I like about PHP is that you have a choice. You can do OO programming for larger projects, and you still have an option for simple <? include ... ?> for simple dynamic web page elements.

True, the classes make my life much easier. OOP rules me :D

I was just trying to show where interactive was probably basing his structure. I think he probably just used the wrong word, or maybe I am misunderstanding him. I dont want to speak for him, I was just syaing what my interpetation of what he posted. :)

you kinda hit what i meant...ya and imbeding php in html is a very bad idea (your code gets real messy real fast)...i personally think that c is one of the best languages out there (IMHO)....just cause its so old so its been perfected...

C is far from being perfect (I could list things I dont like about C, but I wont :p), but yes, it is widely accepted and pretty much any sort of programmer (perl, java, etc) has used C before someplace. :)

ok let me restate myself c is not perfect...nothing is...BUT its probly the language that is closest to perfection ;)...yes there are some things people dont like but still