Greetings,
The subject says it all, but I'll go over a few of my qualifications and whatnot in here.

I have been using LInux at home (and at work) for 5+ years, and in that time have become overly familliar with system administration, networking, various security tasks and even day to day Linux use, as it's my primary OS (windows is a swear word around my house).

In the time I've used Linux, I have managed to highly focus on:
--System Security
--System Administration
--Mail Transport Agents (MTA's), specifically on alternatives to sendmail (my preferred choice has always been Qmail)
--Network Connections
-- much more

In addition, over the past few years, I have taken this training to network (online) systems, thusly familliarizing myself with Cpanel and Ensim, and various other online security measures and tactics.

So, why am I posting this? I am looking for a few individuals who know they need a competent systems administrator to handle various system tasks (updating services, updating packages, minor programming, etc). I'm not looking to make a killing, or to take all your profits, in fact you'll find my prices are more than reasonable (< $100 a month or $25 per incident).

Of course, with those rates you'd expect some inexperienced, incompetent administrating your system, right? Not so. I can provide (at least) 3 references that will vouch for my ability to handle problems, and administrate a system competently if asked.


Thanks for taking the time to read this, if you're interested in any of the above mentioned services, please, feel free to contact me (info provided below). Even if you just have questions about the services (I can do a lot more than I mentioned here, I just kept the qualifications down to a minimum, for space).

TJW

I paid wolfstream.com $85.00 for services. I got 5 days of work done then he quit. I asked for a refund then had my full $85.00 taken. And this is what I was told when I asked for a refund.

The reason he quit apparently was because I asked questions about my server. I might not know linux, but I do know that not asking questions when someone is supposedly providing a service. You need to know what's going on.

He says he's professional. But would a professional get paid for 30 days worth of services then quit? And not give a refund? This is my reply when I asked for a refund after he just quits.

I'm sorry, but I stated (very clearly) at the beginning that there were no
refunds. You asked, I stated.
I've worked quite heavily on your machine over the past few days,installed
CPanel and quite a few other programs. Consider that money spent for services
given.
Have a great day
On Saturday 05 October 2002 03:05 pm, you wrote:
> I appreciate you have your standards for working.
>
> I just wish to be kept upto date with what's going on. Again as I mentioned
> before if i don't know what's going on, and you are ever not available then
> it's my problem if anything goes wrong.
>
> If you are quitting then I am going to need to have the funds refunded.
> If you are going to be able to work with the standards I asked for then
> that's fine.
>
> I am not sure what you find offensive about having system admin information
> forwarded to me. If I can't interpret it I can learn in time, or ask
> someone.
>
> Regardless if you have made up your mind that's fine. Please refund the
> account, because quitting was not part of the arrangements.
>





Last time
There are no refunds on services period.
Any further emails will be treated as harassment and forwarded to your
provider (aol). I told you in the beginning "no refunds", I meant it. You
have received MORE than $75 worth of services. Go out and price these
services individually:
CPanel install
Security install
perldesk install
10+ hours of system administrative work (at minimum $15 an hour)
end of discussion, there are no refunds period. I stated this once and I state
it again.
Good day





this is the last mail in this topic, period:
iF you want a refun, I shall bill you individuall for services provided:
CPanel install -- $25
Security Install -- $30
5 hours misc server administration and personal time (for answering emails,
etc) (at $25 hr) = $125
PerlDesk Install -- $15
Grand total: $195
Take my advice and just drop it and let it be. I WILL report you should you
choose to continue this discussion. The arrangement (and I quote)
----------------------------

____________________________________________________
So, why am I posting this? I am looking for a few individuals who know they need a competent systems administrator to handle various system tasks (updating services, updating packages, minor programming, etc). I'm not looking to make a killing, or to take all your profits, in fact you'll find my prices are more than reasonable (< $100 a month or $25 per incident).

Of course, with those rates you'd expect some inexperienced, incompetent administrating your system, right? Not so. I can provide (at least) 3 references that will vouch for my ability to handle problems, and administrate a system competently if asked.
____________________________________________________

5 days ago when this guy scamed me these were the going rates.

Greetings,
Thanks for your interest in Wolfstream and it's services. Unfortunately, the
site's greatly under construction at the moment, however the prices and
services won't be changing at all.

As far as server administration, I charge in two seperate ways:
Firstly, for just system administration, the rate is $75 per month for 30
"incidents". Incidents are defined as something that takes more than 15
minutes to handle (most don't take more than 15 minutes at the most). The
services provided, included are (but are certainly not limited to):
-- CPanel administration
-- Package installation and upgrades
-- Server maintainance (backups, restoring backups, restoring sql databases
and more)
-- Misc system administration tasks

In addition, all customers are encouraged to take advantage of our monitoring
services, which are offered at a discount of $10 monthly per server for
customers. These monitor http, sql, pop3, imap, ftp and various other ports
every five minutes, andinclude recovery on failure for administration
customers. Of course the monitoring service is NOT required as part of the
administration package, but it is highly reccomended.

If there are any additional questions I can answer, please, feel free to
contact me, via email (you have the address), or the following methods:
ICQ; 153158973
AIM: twhiting9275
MSN:twhiti@hotmail.com

I look forward to discussing this with you further,
Thomas J Whiting
Wolfstream Internet Services

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hate going public with these things, but i am not going to sit back and let you rip more people off. Who are you kidding. My money's probably still sitting hot in your bank account. Have the decency to let some time pass between scams.

WHT is a community and you are not ripping off one more person if I can help it.

**rofl**
One bad apple right?
Actually, this is FAR from a scam. I'm a professional administrator, and I've got the references to prove it (I did advise you to check those just as well).

Yes, I cancelled your account, and our contract, and NO I did not scam you.

As I stated in my email, I installed those services for you (at no charge). I also held you by the hand and babied you through the process of starting up a server and securing it.

I invested a week worth of time into your server, and FAR more than 30 "incidents" as was the arrangement. I DO have that email as well. Each email took more than 15 minutes to write, each contact with you took more than 15 minutes of my time. Therefore, you were not scammed in any way shape or form. Usually, I don't count emails as incidents, but in this case I'm going to, because you insist on being such a pain about this.

Various others have used my services here, and only one has complained. Why? Because that one wanted something that he couldn't handle, so I cancelled the subscription (after I fulfilled more than my monthly duties to your server).

You're NOT the only client I have Sphere, and I find it humorous to say the least that you filed a fraudulent complaint with paypal (services are NOT merchandise), claiming you want your monies back. If you had your way, I would not be paid in any way, shape or form for the work I did on your server (since Monday). I don't work like that. I've put in my time, and I will NOT have my time not rewarded with the agreed upon funds.


Any skilled system administrator will tell you that the price you paid ($75) for those services was in and of itself a bargain. I, for one offer these services at quite the bargain, because I AM professional and I DO Know what I'm doing.. Quite a few people in here will vouch for that very thing.

I've solved system crisis in a flash, on more than one ocasion (something in and of itself worth > $75 a month), I've solved various problems (on your server included), again, something worth > $75 a month.

In short, I lived up to our agreement (30 incidents for $75, more @ $10 per incident). You would have a 40hr a week individual for the price you pay for my services.

Again, go out and price these services seperately. You KNEW from the beginning there'd be no refunds, yet you whine like a child when you didn't get your money back (even lied to paypal).

I'm 100% certain of the outcome of this event with PayPal, just as I am of my own services. Conceited? No, I'm just good. I have solved more than one crisis in record time, I have saved MANY a system from going under, I have installed MANY a package at QUITE the affordable rate I offer.

Scam? Who's scamming who here? I'm certainly not. I stated very clearly there were no refunds, and what I would do, even the terms of the contract (30 incidents). Your repeated attempts to discredit me will fail, because they are attempts that are not even true.

Yes, I cancelled our arrangement, YES I did work on your server for 5 days, YES I installed CPanel, Perldesk, and various other system administrative and security fixes. YES, you walked away with a bargain.

In the longrun, you are the one who is the scam artist here, the one who would have all this done for nothing. I encourage you, go to various other forums and price a CPanel install (you'll get prices from $50-$150). Go and price technical support and system administration (again, you'll get prices from $10hr (if you're lucky) to $50 hr). I spent 10 hours on your own server this week.

Comparatively speaking, you got a bargain, yet you want more for your money. Understandable, but your own actions caused this subscription to be cancelled.

In other words, quit trying to scam, yourself. Your lies are as pathetic as they come. Go out and price a system administrator, you'll find my services are not only dirt cheap but real.

In addition, all customers are encouraged to take advantage of our monitoring
services, which are offered at a discount of $10 monthly per server for
customers. These monitor http, sql, pop3, imap, ftp and various other ports
every five minutes, andinclude recovery on failure for administration
customers. Of course the monitoring service is NOT required as part of the
administration package, but it is highly reccomended.

____________________________________________________
The extra $10.00 I paid you above the $75.00 was for monitoring, where is that? Even without the $75.00 there is $10.00 paid for monitoring which you are are skipping out on.

You are the only person laughing here. This is the agreement.

As per our conversation before I signed on.

I would be glad to see that you are paid for fair services rendered. You were hired for what you said you would do. You are not doing the services. So yes I do want my money back. I hired you for a peroid of work. No for peice work. If I had hired for peice work then yes this might be fair, but you bs and said oh, I'm skilled I'm a pro. I do all this as part of the services for $75.00
You are so full of it. Then to back out and rip of my money who are you kidding? Below is what you said before I paid you the money.
____________________________________________________


As far as training, I'm fine with that. I have no problem training an
individual in how to administrate a linux machine, however, this will have to
be done in a "class" setting (setting up a dedicated time, beit a half hour,
or an hour an evening and discussing things through any IM), unless these are
strictly questions which I'm always willing to answer.
________________________________________________

Then when I asked if you had a money back guarentee you did say no, but you said if a client was not happy, with the work you would go out of your way to solve problems and so forth.

Well I am not happy with your services. Simply because I paid for a lenght of time and that is what was agreed upon. How professional is it to skip out after 5 days. Because i ask questions about my server?

Below is what this person said. I am happy to pay you for work done. But you are not getting paid for 30 days of work for 5 days. When what you did according to you was part of your expert services. And you are billing for emails now? Really professional.
____________________________________________________

> And does your service come with any money back guarantee?
Because of the fact that my services come reasonably priced (go out and price
a tech to come in and do what I do within the first 24 hours of getting
inside of a server, you'll find that you're getting quite a bargain.. Usually
it's a $200-$300 job for professional setup like that), I can't exactly offer
a money back refund. If you're not happy with something I do, tell me and
I'll find a way to work it so that you ARE happy with it, if it can be done
at all.
I realize that this is a bit much, and a bit harsh, but, please, remember that
you're not dealing with ":product" here, you're dealing with "service".
Service takes time to do, and time is always worth money. I don't falsely
advertise my services (they come with everything I've said and more usually).

Remember again, that this is my business. If my customer's not happy, then
chances are they won't come back. My goal is to make the customer happy
(within reason). As long as the customer remembers they're not paying for a
dedicated 24/7 tech, and doesn't expect 40+ hours a week worth of work for
$75 a month worth of administrative tasks. Even 10 hours a week is pushing
it, but I generally find that I am performing various tasks on servers 5-20
hours a week, depending on the server.
___________________________________________________

If asking questions was not going to be ok. You should never have agreed to it. Ever. Ofcourse you will probably win with paypal. You know how hard it is for customers to get their money back for non tagible goods. I'm sure that's why you use it.

This was our conversation. I simply need you to live up to what you agreed to. That to me is professional.

You might find this funny, but I don't. I paid for a service. If I had fired you, and you did not want to refund the money fine, but you quit with my money, and if you want to be paid for 5 days no problem, but for 30 days, their is no way.

Below is what you said would be ok. This is in no way what you have lived up to.
____________________________________________________

> If you have the logs sent to me and you, they will be not very useful to me
> at first, but later on with some tips and tutoring, I will understand what
> they mean.
That I can do, however they are quite "spammy", as I check them every half
hour.

> Ok. I think that was all the questions i had so far. As long as you
> understand that I really like fast response times. (Which have been just
> fine so far.)
The only hours you're guaranteed NOT to get a response from me are 12m -
3/330a CST, as i work part time for the city during these hours, though that
is looking to draw to a close shortly;)

>I ask a lot of questions. (That's how I learn. I will often
> ask the same thing twice to make sure it was clear and that there were no
> misinterpretations.) This is a first server so there will be more
> questions, but I am happy to learn.

Questions are fine, that is how people learn. I am a self taught professional
(been using linux for almost 5, 6 years now), so I understand completely that
questions are the best way to do it.

___________________________________________________
The extra $10.00 I paid you above the $75.00 was for monitoring, where is that? Even without the $75.00 there is $10.00 paid for monitoring which you are are skipping out on.
___________________________________________________
Nope, your server was monitored. It has been discontinued, because of the paypal action taken last night, but had this not been taken you would still be monitored (for the original month).

Just because you don't see any output from the monitor is NO reason to asume it's not working. I've at least one client who's seen and proven that it is working.. Any good monitor does not alert you to 'false' problems.

As I stated in my email, I installed those services for you (at no charge). I also held you by the hand and babied you through the process of starting up a server and securing it.

____________________________________________________
When i explained that this was my first server. I did not know linux and that was why I was hiring a system admin, and I would be asking a lot of questions, but willing to learn, and happy to do any system duties I could, because I eventually wanted to take care of my box, what was not clear to you?

Babied through? I don't know linux I happy admit that. I told you striaght out that i did not. But I also explained really clearly that I wanted to learn and take an active role in taking care of the box. I asked to have the system logs sent over. I might not be able to interpret them all now, but I was fully willing to learn.

Instead when I asked questions and wanted to know what was going on, I only ever received rude answers and not enoungh help.

You might have been doing a good job on the server, but whenever I asked about a system porcess that failed or something that did not seem right, you would just blow it off and say oh I'm a professional.

Being a professional is know how. But it's also how you treat your clients. You did not in any way shape of form act professional on this case. You quit for no good reason. Me asking questions about my server, or wanting my system logs to go to me as well as you, or wanting to be contacted should something go wrong with the box, is not a good enough reason for you to quit.

To turn around and now say you are charging me for emails, cause I asked questions about my box is not professional. If you had stated that they would be charged as part of your service then hey, but you and i both know that's not the case.

We could both go on, but the bottom line is. I have paid you for services which you said the $85.00 would cover for one full month. If you are not willing to live up to that. You need to a)Refund my account, or b) live up to the obligations you commited to.

My name is Ditlev Bredahl, I am the owner of a few hosting companies, and Tom has been an employee of mine during the last months. I think it would only be fair to add a few comments here.

Lets look at the facts...I dont know the details, but if Tom actually
installed Cpanel + Perldesk + Firewall etc. (security) AND spend 5 hours on answering your emails....all for $75?
Then I hope that you are not seriously asking for a refund?
If so - then let this be a warning to all your clients - if you are not willing to pay $75 for these services, that really goes to show how serious you are about your business.

I dont know why the two of you didn’t hit it off...I’ve had quite a few admins working for me, even had to sack a one or two. But Tom never let me down, actually he saved my ass more than once. He is extremely professional, and takes his work very seriously - my clients has actually begun asking for him directly, because they know that he gets his job done.
In fact I have paid Tom several special bonuses on top of the agreement we allready have.

Again, I have no idea what went wrong here - but it seems that you really got your moneys worth...Those things he did for you should cost you more than the double.

/ditlev

___________________________________________________
The extra $10.00 I paid you above the $75.00 was for monitoring, where is that? Even without the $75.00 there is $10.00 paid for monitoring which you are are skipping out on.
___________________________________________________
Nope, your server was monitored. It has been discontinued, because of the paypal action taken last night, but had this not been taken you would still be monitored (for the original month).

Just because you don't see any output from the monitor is NO reason to asume it's not working. I've at least one client who's seen and proven that it is working.. Any good monitor does not alert you to 'false' problems.


__________________

You are now going to lie and say that my server would have been monitored? But because of my paypal action, you are using that as an excuse. You really beleive your own lies? Where does the BS end with you? These are your last two emails to me before you I guess got angry and quit. Cause I wanted emails to come to me and you about my server?

You are so rude in your response. You are not going to ask my permission about things that don't relate to me? (My server relates to me, casue anything goes wrong, people do not go, oh that crappy system admin, or of that awful server. They look to the owner for blame. All I tried to do was be responsible, and to end I got ripped off. That is not fair and that is wrong.
___________________________________________________

On Saturday 05 October 2002 02:31 pm, you wrote:
> I realise you need to have the emails come to you for your system
> admin duties.
>
> I would appreciate changes like that to be forwarded to me in future.
>
> But I also want to have any system issues forwarded to me.
>
> I have created an email that will forward to your email and well as my
> email.
>
> Please confirm that you have received this email.
>
> Thanks.
>
> GmB
Ugh,
First off you have no idea what these mails mean, how to fix the problems or
anything of the like.

Once again, step away from the system administrative position and let the
professional handle this. You can't even handle linux itself, this is clearly
seen.

I'm not going to argue with you about this. It's that simple. If you can't
leave me the leeway to do my job, you will find yourself in a load of hot
water really fast.

You MAY be a great admin (web wise), but when it comes to Linux youknow
NOTHING about diagnosing problems an trying to fix them.

I'm NOT going to ask for your approval on things that don't even relate to you
(I am a skilled system administrator, you aren't even a linux user) when you
can do nothing but damage with them.

_________________________________________________


Please removeme from this forwarding email and anything of the like, and
change your system password.

I'm sorry, but I'mnot going to be able to work under the confines of someone
who doesn't understand something, yet insists on knowing everything.

I wish you the best of luck, but you'll never get anywhere unless you let
people do their job without constant badgering and questioning. You need to
realize you know NOTHING about system administration (you don't even know the
linux user basics), and when it comes down to it, you insist that you know
everything..
___________________________________________________
To me this does not sound like my server was going to be serviced or monitored at all.

But where do you get off? I know nothing about system admin, fine so I did the responsible thing and hired one. One who I advised that I would be asking a lot of questions, and that I would be taking an active role in the server duties. You agreed to that. Then you quit.

The first two days were just fine. You told me what to do, and to the best of my abilities I did them. I'm no pro. But giving a list of things to do to take care of my server was fine. I told you I wanted to help do the work if I could. You were like, look just sit back and let the pro take care of this.

I said I wanted to actively participate. So how can you lie and say I wanted you to do all this work and not pay you. I wanted to help. I fully told you you were not expected to do all the work.

You hated me helping after the third day, cause I couldn't install a perl desk and you had to do it, and you decided I was usless to my own server and you should take care of everything and I should be cut out.

But if you had just kept it real with this like this list of things to do this would have gone down just fine.
___________________________________________________

Stuff for you to do tomorrow (or whenever you get the license installed):
go to https://66.xxxxxxxxxxx/
--edit setup (first selection under server setup)
Change your nameservers to be ns1.yourdomain.com and
ns2.yourdomain.com. Remember the values you put in at enom? You'll need them
here (click on assign ip address and assign it). Make SURE you click on add
an A name for this nameserver as well (important)
Ignore the master nameserver and trust nameserver options, as they are
not applicable here.
Enter your contact email where it asks for contact email address
Enter my contact aim (twhiting9275) where it asks for contact aim (since
you don't have aim). the same goes for ICQ (153158973).
--SAVE settings!! :)
Change your hostname (do NOT use www.yourdomain.com or just
yourdomain.com, as this will create problems later on down the road). This
option is two links down from edit setup.
Initial Nameserver Setup (Click on that link, then OK, because you will
be using your own nameservers).
Initial Quota setup (again, click on OK, because you'll need quotas).
Change where system mail goes -- enter your mail address here.
Change Root Password (after you've got your license installed)
Change MySQL root password (please make sure you pass these both on to
me,as I find that I do a few mysql repairs per server (sometimes major)).


Create a New Account (call this yourdomain.com, and don't worry about the
ip's). Add your user in here (this will be where your main stuff goes, so
secure this with a decent password and don't limit stuff like bandwidth,
etc).

Configure backups (don't push it, you should backup maybe once a week) and
create a /home/backup directory, or even /usr/backup (either way) as root
before you do this.

Sound like a lot of work? Not really, you should see what I had to do tonight
to get 'er installed:) I'll be around a little bit this morning, a little bit
this afternoon, and more this evening, but I'm in the process of upgrading my
OS (redhat 8.0 was just released yesterday and I'm one of the lucky few that
actually managed to find a decent pipe to download it from I'm sure), though
that shouldn't take but a couple of hours, if it's a typical rh install.

TJW

My name is Ditlev Bredahl, I am the owner of a few hosting companies, and Tom has been an employee of mine during the last months. I think it would only be fair to add a few comments here.

Lets look at the facts...I dont know the details, but if Tom actually
installed Cpanel + Perldesk + Firewall etc. (security) AND spend 5 hours on answering your emails....all for $75?
Then I hope that you are not seriously asking for a refund?
If so - then let this be a warning to all your clients - if you are not willing to pay $75 for these services, that really goes to show how serious you are about your business.

I dont know why the two of you didn’t hit it off...I’ve had quite a few admins working for me, even had to sack a one or two. But Tom never let me down, actually he saved my ass more than once. He is extremely professional, and takes his work very seriously - my clients has actually asking for him directly, because they know that he gets his job done.
In fact I have paid Tom several special bonuses on top of the agreement we allready have.

Again, I have no idea what went wrong here - but it seems that you really got your moneys worth...Those things he did for you should cost you more than the double.

/ditlev


__________________
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Report this
____________________________________________________
I thank you for posting. I am happy that Tom has friends to speak for him. I can only speak on my own behalf.

I paid for 30 days worth of work. This is what i am going with.

Tom as part of his service said that was all included. And it would cover a full 30 days. His word is his honour or it's not.

Monitoring. For the extra $10 that's what it was suppose cover. Are you telling Tom can just do this to other people and then back out?

I paid for a server that was suppost to have webmin and a whole bunch of other things installed for free. I wanted Cpanel cause then my Admn would have very little to do. The first company I hired to install Cpanel didn't work out. (They said they installed Cpanel.) He should never have had to do this.

This was not something that I need from him. (He says that when he checked Cpenal had not been installed and he could do it. ) I said ok. He's system admin and he's telling me that his serveices include all this great stuff for that price. Just because he now decided that he's more valuable than that, he just quits?

How professinal is that? I went with his word. I feel that he has no honour for doing this. Without what I feel is a good reason. My server is not being monitored or maintained. But he has my money.

Again if I agree to host someone for a dollar and offer 5GB of space and 200 GB of bandwidth and kick them off after a few days, then I'm sure someone is not going to come here and tell that customer they should be happy because they got more than what they paid for.

My compliant is that i did not get what was agreed to. If he is honorable then he needs to find a way to fulfill what he said he would do.
____________________________________________________

Then I hope that you are not seriously asking for a refund?
If so - then let this be a warning to all your clients - if you are not willing to pay $75 for these services, that really goes to show how serious you are about your business.

____________________________________________________
Yes i am seriously asking for a refund. Someone who charges $50.00 for Cpanel licence can back out after 5 days and say look around, most people charge more than that you got what you paid for. I expect him to be honorable, professional.

I am not sure how you can justify his treatment of my accounts here. I was very serious about this, I had at least two other people offering the same price for services. I choose him, because of his emphasis on professionalism. If i had paid for peice work then this would be fine, but I paid for a lenght and period of time. Plus monitoring.

You are speaking for your experiences and i am glad that you have had a good experience, but i have not. This was a first server. I advised of my expectations and my requirements. He's a professional, but this is the outcome. Never before have I seen the likes.

And why because I wanted to know what was going on with the server? You wanted to know how seriously I take this, I take it really seriously and to that end, wanted to be involved with every aspect of the opperations to the best of my abilities.

On his word he said this would be ok. His word has no honour.
To just then quit, that to me is not professional. I dont' know how you rate professional, but to me this is not.

For a new person trying to understand the whole server linux thing this has been a bad experience. I am happy to pay for services rendered. If he wants to live up to what he said he would do for the whole month, then that's fine. Other wise I do expect a refund for a breech of verbal contract. And if his word is not any good then so be it.

He can be paid for the number of days he put in, but I paid for 30 days, and to that end he said his services included xy and z. And that asking questions would be ok. If he was a professional, he should have said otherwise.

Again, go out and price these services seperately. You KNEW from the beginning there'd be no refunds, yet you whine like a child when you didn't get your money back (even lied to paypal).
____________________________________________________Discredit you no. I really do believe you are a scammer. I really think what you did was wrong. I think if you had any honour you would live up to your arrangments.

Lied to paypal? I paid you for 30 days. You worked for 5. I think you are a scammer. Which part of that is a lie?

You yourself admit that you only worked for 5 days. you admit that you are not living up to the monitoring that I paid you for.

All I know, is the way you did things is not professional. You took my money, when I tried to talk to you about it, your argument was, consider that you got more than what you paid for.

As far as i know what you have yourself admitted to here is what i told paypal.

If I had fired you, then yes there would be no refund expected. But you quit this verbal contract. I just don't see how that is honest or right. You knew what the requirements were. I stated them, but you did not honour them.

Well allow me to put in my opinion here.

I hired Tom to set up my new ded server and to make sure everything is up and running correctly and securely. I did this after reading many posts here about many of the admins qualifications here, and they are pretty impressive on the whole.

I talked to Tom, hired him and have thus far be VERY happy with the services received. Admins don't come cheap, at least not good ones but Tom is the exception to the rule. With him you get cost effective and qualified. He has been very professional, prompt and knowledgable about what he has done for me.

I would have no reservation recommending him to anyone looking for an admin for their box.

Sometimes people just don't get along and sometimes you just can't please everyone.

Tom has pleased me and I will continue with him for that very reason and as I said, I would reccomend him to anyone.

legend1
Newbie

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 5
____________________________________________________
If Tom had quit services after 5 days of working on your box. I can not imagine that you would be posting here and saying he was doing a good job.

References are no good, when someone can just quit services after 5 days of work and then not even justify it. Or make arrangments to live upto those services. (You can speak for Tom, but my experience is my experience, and everything I have said here today is true.)

If you really are a client who uses his services and you have been happy, then I am happy for you. (And you are really lucky.)

But I again can only go over my experiences with his services, and his responses to legitimate questions I asked. I don't know Tom.

I really do feel that he has just taken the money and run. I have a server. (I never placed anyone on the server, because I was just never comfortable enough to transfer over the accounts.) I am glad I did not not.

I paid him for stuff he said would be included in his services. I could have legitamatly gone with another offer.

All I am asking this person to do is live up to what they have said, or refund me.

If you can speak for someone who does this as part of his business practice then so be it. But I can only speak for myself and this has been a really bad experience.

The worst part was that he really wanted to just quit and take someones money and think it was ok. I really feel that he would do this again, and that is why this issue is being brought up here today.

If Tom had quit services after 5 days of working on your box. I can not imagine that you would be posting here and saying he was doing a good job.

Well guy, I used to do that kind of work long time ago and know what Tom did to set it up, and how much time he spent on it, I am sure I wouldn't be any where near as upset as you. Time=$$$=Value. And even though it's early in the month, I still feel I have received value for my $$$ based on what has been done so far and the time it took to do it.

legend1
Newbie

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 5
___________________________________________________
If you don't mind me asking. How long have you had your box? You said it was new, so he could not have been on the box for that long. (It sounds like you have not been with him even a month.) I am guessing.

I am not sure what your knowledge of linux is, but you have stated he is doing a good job. Is this because you have been allowed to ask about system processes and so forth, or because he has told you everything is just fine?

I read many post here as well. I went with him, because of his empahsis on professionalism. 3 days ago had he asked me to back him up in a post about how good he was, I think I would have helped him out too. (Simply cause you are so happy to have a system admin on board.) But getting scammed is another story.

I also have a new box like you, and maybe your experience will be well. (I don't think he's likely to back out and scam you after this post.) but if he had done this to you, you might have been here as well.

I really do hope for your sake this works out.

Actually got the box the end of last month so no, I haven't been with him long. Long enough to know what he has done and yes he has answered many of my questions, even those that involved another hosting account I have that is turning out, lets say, not so good.

As for getting scammed, possible, but I have more than a shoolyard knowledge having given up my job as a Sr. Engineer for ATT/Lucent working on IVR systems all on Unix boxes to run my websites.

What I don't have is time ;) Time ro rehone my skills, ( at least as fast as I want things done right now) time to learn the 'ways' of Linux and time to mess with it. That is what I bought and paid for and that is what I received.

Well guy, I used to do that kind of work long time ago and know what Tom did to set it up, and how much time he spent on it, I am sure I wouldn't be any where near as upset as you. Time=$$$=Value. And even though it's early in the month, I still feel I have received value for my $$$ based on what has been done so far and the time it took to do it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you did admin a long time ago why did you hire a system admin now? I'm just curious.

I don't know how much work Tom actually did. (I am willing to take him at his word.) The first company I hired to install Cpanel still swears up and down that they did the install. He says when he checked the install was not done, and that he did himself.

I have two people saying they installed Cpanel on my box. I am going with his word, because I put some faith and trust in his word in the beginning. (Now I'm not so sure.)

I can back him up on the emails. (But he said he was happy to answer questions, then he does a 365 degree turn.)

Untill you are in my shoes you really can't say how upset you would be. It's easy to sit there, he hasn't walked off with your money refusing to take care of services he said he would. (Untill you walk that mile in someones shoes it's hard to say.)

Time=$$$=Value. In a piece work environment sure. But in a period of time =$$$ to be paid, you need to put in the time.

I paid for 30 days. I expect 30 days. I don't want Tom to walk away without anything. But there is no way he's getting away with 5 days of work, when he was hired for 30. I could not do this to a client and get away with it. That's not the standards I go by, but he wants to get away with this.

If he'd said yeah peice work or something like that, then we would be good. He said it would be service for a month and included would be the setting up and security. I have the email correspondance to prove it. He agreed to do that and monitor for a month.

Can you honestly say he lived up to what he said he would do? It's great that you are willing to talk about the services you have had so far, but you are not in my shoes.

Firstly, yes, you did lie to paypal, the email I got from them proves this:
-----------------------------
Dear Tom Whiting,

Recently, PayPal received a complaint from a user regarding
merchandise not received or received not-as-described.
The details of this transaction are as follows:
-------------------------

There was no merchandise for sale, this was a service contract only. From prior experience (I've had to cancel a contract on a prior host, host refused to send me money for month unused, contract was canceled in June, I had July paid for but they wouldn't refund), I know paypal's response in this matter. They don't cover "service" complaints. They won't refund your $$$ there.

In addition, I counted 30 emails in 3 days (from you) and I responded to 90% of those. Technically (if I was splitting hairs here, and in this case I will), this counts as an incident per email, as each took > 15 minutes to read and respond to. So, there's your 30 incidents right there. Usually I wouldn't but I will in this case.

In addition, I was online, talking to you, esentially working with you Wednesday most of the day, Tuesday evening, for a great part of the evening. That was done at no cost (something I don't usually do, because it detracts from my work).

As well, I setup CPanel, spent an hour or better trying to find you a licenser for it (which you chose not to accept), again, all part of my service. The CP setup took the better part of 2 hours (I forget the exact time), thusly qualifying itself as an incident there. Whether I agreed to , or was asked to, is beyond the point here. System administration and installing software is part of the job that I do (and I do it well, as at least 2 of my clients have testified to (the third may not have checked this forum yet)).

I do business in a strictly professional manner, I explained the costs and refund policies to you in the beginning. There are none, because of the nature of the work that I do. I work my tail off for a server, usually within the first 24 hours, tryin to stabilize things, get them secure and whatnot, installing firewalls, etc.

Just as a random thing. I emailed fastservers ( a couple of months back), and asked them how much they'd charge for just a CP setup.. Their response (and this is for the same thing I did): $250. Their justification? We put in various tools to heighten security as well. Well, you got all of that for mere pennies on the dollar..

I've sat here and watched you call my clients my "friends", and in one sense of the word they are. However, each and every testimonial I have has come NOT from a friend (I could pull MANY more of those out) , but from a CLIENT, as to my professionalism and the manner in which I handle my business.

I find it not amusing in the least bit (more harassing) that you've called me a scam artist, that you've insulted my services (when you have used them yourself), that you lie not only to this forum, but to PayPal, because you want your monies refunded.

I told you in the beginning there would be zero refunds, and I meant it. If you insist upon wanting a refund, you will pay the seperate charges for installing security firewalls, cPanel, and various system administrative stuff. I'll even ignore the emails, and go with a strict 5 hour system admin fee (because I know I put in 5 hours over these days)... The total will still be more than your original $85.

As I said in the beginning, I am 100% certain of my own justifications in this matter, and of the fact that I do NOT scam my clients.

Just as an fyi:
For BWB (bandwidthbroker), I manage 3 servers alone. I also have various other clients who have used my services in the past, and currently do. My reputation isn't tarnished by one individual who is so cheap he'd refuse to pay for services rendered (a fair value even).

The posts by this individual have nothing to do with fraud, except on the individual's part. I am quite a professional in my demeanor and attitude (If I was less of one, I would have given into the flames and personal attacks of Sphere2), I merely have a very good (and qualified) service to offer.

The points you seem to be missing:
Go out and price these services seperately. You'll pay a LOT more for them as such.

I do NOT rip my clients off (or scam them). They know that if the need arises they can contact me via any method they need and I will have the problem solved (or offer alternative solutions).

My email, my IM methods are open 24/7 to my clients, and no, usually I don't charge them for this service. However, 30+ emails in 3 days is quite excessive, so yes, I am going to charge for these, and count them as "incidents" which they are.

I'm sorry you feel you got ripped off here, but, certainly you didn't. What you WOULD have, however is for me to be ripped off of money that I have worked for and earned. That is unacceptable, period.

End of September. Hey you have had him for like less than a week.

So with less than a week, he asked you to speak for him. See I could have been you.

The difference is I am not getting the service and he took my money.

I don't have a lot of linux. I explained that. He said questions were fine.

I started to get a lot of things like this.

/etc/cron.daily/logrotate:

stat of /var/log/exim_rejectlog failed: No such file or directory


/etc/cron.daily/logrotate:

stat of /var/log/exim_paniclog failed: No such file or directory
stat of /var/log/messages failed: No such file or directory
stat of /var/log/secure failed: No such file or directory
stat of /var/log/cron failed: No such file or directory
stat of /var/log/wtmp failed: No such file or directory


Unusual System Events
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
File /var/log/messages cannot be read.
File /var/log/secure cannot be read.



Unusual System Events
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
File /var/log/messages cannot be read.
File /var/log/secure cannot be read.



/etc/cron.daily/logrotate:

stat of /var/log/exim_paniclog failed: No such file or directory
stat of /var/log/messages failed: No such file or directory
stat of /var/log/secure failed: No such file or directory
stat of /var/log/cron failed: No such file or directory
stat of /var/log/wtmp failed: No such file or directory


__________________________________________________
Now he says this stuff is nothing to worry about. But I am new to linux and if I don't ask questions and he's wrong or not being upfront then who's fault is it for not asking quesions?

His response is I don't know linux, and I need t just leave the system admin stuff to the professional. If when I asked about this stuff, he explained what it all meant. I would not worry.

But brushing it off and saying hey I'm a professional is worrysome, or this is no concern of yours is unprofessional.
If I had not asked questions and then something went wrong, people do not go looking for system admins. Your box, your responsibility. I tried to do that. I hired help but this is the turn out.

He knew I would be asking questions. I stated that before I paid him. He said that would be just fine. That's how people learn. Then he quits for the very same thing he says would be ok?

This does not seem right to me. That's what this is about.

hehe - Im starting to see a pattern.

It seems like you wanted a teacher - and not only an admin here.

If you want to learn about linux, buy a book - dont expect your admin to teach you stuff like that.
Also, it seems that you are totally green here, perhaps you should have read a book or two before you even began this venture?
How do you provide support to your clients if you do not know anything about even the most simple things as those you list above? Have you hired supporters as well?

/ditlev

sphere2 you admit that you know nothing about Linux, you have wolfstream working for you, as you keep repeating for 5 days. You pay him $75.

$75 / 5 days = $15 per day.

Hello!! Wake up and smell the roses. You got a damned GOOD deal out of that. Installing and configuring a firewall alone should cost more than that - I don't even get out of bed for less than that. Now, because wolfstream has decided he no longer wishes to have you as a client (and I don't blame him there, you sound like a pain in the butt) you want to deny him the money he's already worked for and earned. :angry:

List of people to NEVER deal with: sphere2

List of honest sounding, hard working people to deal with in the future: wolfstream

I have not lied to paypal. I told them that the full service was not recieved. There was no merchandise received because I did not pay for merchandise. This was a service of which you have worked 5 days. (I am looking at the length of time that you agreed to work.)

The rest of that I assume is your wording about something else. I assume this is what you did to someone else.


Now you want to charge for emails? If you had stated you charge for emails. Then I would have been happy to not write to you. What you said was asking questions would be ok. a lot of that was asking about the system process and what was going on. Which I am entitled to do.

I found a replacement licence for Cpanel in under half an hour. Then I took another ten to make the arrangments. (To your credit you did try to find a company. But it was not two hours. And I can tell you your Cpanel install that you said you did, was not two hours when you contacted me to let me know it was there. From the time you told me that company A had not done the install. I contacted my server company and they gave me a replacement. Less than half an hour. I have your word that you did the Cpanel install. (I am willing to take you at your word with this, because you explained the partions were off etc.

Company A does a full install with cpanel, and they support if for $50.00. No charge for install. You knew this and said you could install it yourself. (Now you want to charge for it. ) Fine that's an incident.

Note the time.

9/30/2002 5:23:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Oritsfree
To: wolf@wolfstream.net


Ok. If you can get it for around $50.00 we are good. If not I will start with webmin and go from there.

Thanks.

9/30/2002 6:10:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Oritsfree
To: wolf@wolfstream.net


It's ok. I have found another company to do it for $50.00

I'm still not sure that you are not a scam artist. You call me a lier but everything I have said, you yourself have verified. I am not sure where you get off calling me a lier? What I have stated is true. (You have even backed it up.)

If you had said you would be charging peice work or by the hour, then I could have gone with other options. You don't get this. My grievence is I paid you for one months worth of service. You are backing out. Fine but then refund the rest of the month. Pro-rate it. But do what you said you would do. We agreed to one thing, and then for no good reason you quit. This is at the heart of my grievence.

You agreed to a month of service. How do you get to quit after five and then you call yourself professional. If your ad said. I do this, this and this. For cost per incident. But your ad says, per month server admin. I do all this and more. You own ad shows you for being dishonest.

If your service is so good. Then live up to it. Flames and attacks. I have called you a scammer, cause someone who does 5 days of work when he's paid for 30 where I'm from is a scammer.

I have not lied. And when I saw your ad today. I really thought you were going to scam someone else. 5 days ago your prices were $75.00 now they are a hundread. I know what you did to me. So when I saw your ad. I assume you are going to scam someone else. From my postion I feel cheated, to sit back and let you do this to someone else would have been wrong. Especially when your email was to just forget it.

People will make up their own minds. But anyone who paid for a service and has not had someone live up to it can understand where I am coming from.


Funny at the end of the day. You have my money. You have worked 5 days. Must be nice. Then you say you are the one getting ripped off. Just live up to what you said you would do, or refund me. I asked for a refund after you clearly said you would not be rendering the services.

joshp
WHT Addict

Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 114
sphere2 you admit that you know nothing about Linux, you have wolfstream working for you, as you keep repeating for 5 days. You pay him $75.

$75 / 5 days = $15 per day.

Hello!! Wake up and smell the roses. You got a damned GOOD deal out of that. Installing and configuring a firewall alone should cost more than that - I don't even get out of bed for less than that. Now, because wolfstream has decided he no longer wishes to have you as a client (and I don't blame him there, you sound like a pain in the butt) you want to deny him the money he's already worked for and earned.

List of people to NEVER deal with: sphere2

List of honest sounding, hard working people to deal with in the future: wolfstream


__________________
Accelerated Computing
http://www.acceli.com

____________________________________________________
I am not sure you understand that this is what i paid for. You can sit and say what you want. But the bottom line is this is what I paid for. And if you think a client who asks questions about something they are solely responsible for is a pain in the ass then so be it. He agreed to one months worth of worth. If you think this is fair. What you are saying is that tomorrow he can do this to all his clients. If this is your brand of justice then so be it.

I am standing my ground, and taking care of what I believe is right. If he needs to have friends, clients come and defend unjust actions than so be it. IF you need to list me as someone to not deal with because I have a legitimate grievence then so be it.

All I know is I took the time to try to find someone who would be responsible and not scam me. Someone who takes off after 5 days is a scammer.

Also from what you have said you would justify his actions if he had put in one hour of work if he had managed to do all that in an hours. If he had charged for peice work. I would be fine with this. But he guarenteed a service, which he backed out on. Then took that money. This is the problem. If he wants to live up to what he has said in the beginning then so be.

If I had not asked about what was included. I would not be so angry. But I asked. He said questions were good, and that's how people learn. He said he had no problem with this. None, and now this is the outcome.

You can read the thread. If he had not agreed to XYZ services i would not be so unhappy with this outcome. If he lived up to his word, but his word is no good.

{services provided, included are (but are certainly not limited to):
-- CPanel administration
-- Package installation and upgrades
-- Server maintainance (backups, restoring backups, restoring sql databases
and more)
-- Misc system administration tasks}
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greetings,
Thanks for your interest in Wolfstream and it's services. Unfortunately, the
site's greatly under construction at the moment, however the prices and
services won't be changing at all.

As far as server administration, I charge in two seperate ways:
Firstly, for just system administration, the rate is $75 per month for 30
"incidents". Incidents are defined as something that takes more than 15
minutes to handle (most don't take more than 15 minutes at the most). The
services provided, included are (but are certainly not limited to):
-- CPanel administration
-- Package installation and upgrades
-- Server maintainance (backups, restoring backups, restoring sql databases
and more)
-- Misc system administration tasks

In addition, all customers are encouraged to take advantage of our monitoring
services, which are offered at a discount of $10 monthly per server for
customers. These monitor http, sql, pop3, imap, ftp and various other ports
every five minutes, andinclude recovery on failure for administration
customers. Of course the monitoring service is NOT required as part of the
administration package, but it is highly reccomended.

If there are any additional questions I can answer, please, feel free to
contact me, via email (you have the address), or the following methods:
ICQ; 153158973
AIM: twhiting9275
MSN:twhiti@hotmail.com

Originally posted by sphere2
Just live up to what you said you would do, or refund me. I asked for a refund after you clearly said you would not be rendering the services.
(directly from my email)
I can't exactly offer a money back refund. If you're not happy with something I do, tell me and
I'll find a way to work it so that you ARE happy with it, if it can be done at all.
(/email quote)
I tried for a good couple of days to find a way to work it so that you were happy. In the longrun, it couldn't be done, because you insisted upon taking up the majority of my day with emails and the like.

I never once said emails were NOT considered part of "incidents", I merely said that anything > 15 minutes was considered one. So, responding to an email could, in all likelyhood BE an incident (not that it is usually, but it is).

You did indeed lie to paypal, and tell them merchandise (goods) was not received. This is NOT merchandise, this is SERVICE, something which I can't take back at the end of the day (hence no refunds).

I have lived 100% up to my emails (and then some). I did not agree to hold your hand and teach you how to administrate a server (or even use a server). I DID agree to administrate your server and TRY to help you get the grasp on server administration. Unfortunately, it wasn't untill too late that I realized what a hopeless cause that was, and what a time consuming cause it was.

Service was cancelled, NOT because of anything but of your own attitude. I could not do my job effeciently, so I left the environment. I doubt that 1 single individual that has actually READ this thread disagrees with that decision.

The facts:
You got a hell of a bargain for a week's system administration. You would have that returned as nothing, no monies no anything, and I don't work like that. Sorry, but you've well used your 30 "incident" quota.

You have insisted that you're right, when there's at LEAST 4 people (one of whom I have never met before) that have backed myself, and said you are wrong. When it comes down to it, the world's wrong and I'm right, right/? Nuhhuh, it's the other way around. You're wrong, and you know it. You paid for 30 incidents, you received 30 incidents (and much much much more).

Any way you slice it or dice it, you will find that you're not in the right here sphere2. All you're doing right now is just digging yourself in deeper and deeper.

Perhaps, yes I may have been wrong in cancelling the monitoring, but when my funds are suddenly in question because of your own actions, you'd better believe that I'm not going to sit and monitor your own servers for free. Besides, I can easily apply the monitoring extras to the time and whatnot I've had to invest since CLOSING
your account, with the pathetic attempts at wanting monies returned (when services were rendered), with my own interaction with PayPal (this is not something I relish doing, mind you), dealing with your own harassing nature (at least one of your threads have been closed and locked because of the blatant lies and harassment). It all adds up, rather quickly.

The long and short;
You got what you paid for, and as ditlev and others have said at QUITE a bargain.
You would have that money returned to you, because you don't think that the service was established.. Trust me, it was, and I did install Cpanel (I have mails proving this fact and WHY cpanel wasn't installed by the first company).

Please, stop crapping on my thread simply because you are so cheap you want everything for nothing.That's what it boils down to. You've received very valid explanations as to why your subscription was cancelled, and others have agreed with me publicly..You, sir, are in the wrong.

BwBroker
Junior Guru Wannabe

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 67

____________________________________________________
I have a customer service staff, the customers are with a program that looks after the server.

But I finally wanted my own server. I have enough clients that I wanted to move a few of them over to a new server and see how it goes, with a system admin it should have been fine.

To answer your questions. Yes I am new to linux. I hired a server admin to assist because I am new. I told that server admin I would be asking a lot of questions.

He said that a sit down one on one session would be ok. He said half an hour per day could be spent going over quesitons about the service.

He said this would be included. This was my requriement. If this was not going to be ok, he should have said so. It's not a pattern or anything. This was what I clearly started to him.

When he quit yesterday. And said he was keeping the money and to just forget about it, what else could i think? Scam!

To me professional would have been. I can't live up to what i said. I can monitor the server, but I can't answer the questions.

To me when i asked questions and he would not answer them, it made me think something might be off. This was my concern.


This is the bottom line for me. I hired him because of his word.
this is what he agreed to. (Listed below.) The same thing he agreed to, the reason I hired him. He quit for the same reasons. Cause I dared to ask questions to which he agreed. If it was going to be a problem, he should have said. I monitor, but i don't allow questions. I would then have made other arrangments.

If Tom is honest then he should live up to what he said. I am happy to pay, but I want the service he agreed to.

That is what is at the heart and soul of this. IF someone charges $250 for Cpanel and another charges $50 they can't just say oh check around other charge more. The reason people use or go with a service to begin with is because of getting good value for a great price.

I don't feel this was the case. If he wanted to work out arrangments fine, but he quit, and when I wanted to talk about it, it was just forget. (That's what seemed like being scamed.)

Anyways paypal is going to look into this. If he wins he wins. But I still think he did something wrong. If he's done a good job on your servers for a long period of time without taking your money, then so be it.

You at least have worked with Tom and I can see the relavance of your post.


> If you have the logs sent to me and you, they will be not very useful to me
> at first, but later on with some tips and tutoring, I will understand what
> they mean.

That I can do, however they are quite "spammy", as I check them every half
hour.

> Ok. I think that was all the questions i had so far. As long as you
> understand that I really like fast response times. (Which have been just
> fine so far.)

The only hours you're guaranteed NOT to get a response from me are 12m -
3/330a CST, as i work part time for the city during these hours, though that
is looking to draw to a close shortly;)

>I ask a lot of questions. (That's how I learn. I will often
> ask the same thing twice to make sure it was clear and that there were no
> misinterpretations.) This is a first server so there will be more
> questions, but I am happy to learn.

Questions are fine, that is how people learn. I am a self taught professional
(been using linux for almost 5, 6 years now), so I understand completely that
questions are the best way to do it.

As there has been way too much name calling in this thread, all over $75, when it is clear some services were performed and then the client was terminated-either for cause or not.

Years ago I owned a boat dealership. My head mechanic wasn't perhaps the best with customers, but one time someone brought in an outboard motor to be rebuilt. He asked what it would cost-my mechanic said $300. He asked, what if he helped. Without hesitation, my mechanic said $600.

I really want to be clear. I did not lie to paypal. I did not get merchandise from you because it's not merchandise. I never told them it was. I will find the email if I can, and post it if i have to.
If there is some confusion their their should not be. I told them servcie not rendered.


If you have recieved anything else I will look into it. I will win for services not rendered or not at all. I don't have to lie to them because what you have said here backs up the 5 days rendered.

You have two clents. One who has worked with you for 6 days. They only said that your service was good and that they would recommend you. That's fine.

The other person I don't know. He might be a stranger who just took the time to post. That's fine. He's the one who thinks I'm in the wrong.

Since he's is stating an opion and does not have his money taken then so be it.

____________________________________________________
[I never once said emails were NOT considered part of "incidents", I merely said that anything > 15 minutes was considered one. So, responding to an email could, in all likelyhood BE an incident (not that it is usually, but it is). ]
____________________________________________________
Please advise your future clients of this so that they will know what they are getting into. Since you said questions are fine, knowing you could potentially count them as incidents how honest is that?

_______________________________________________
Perhaps, yes I may have been wrong in cancelling the monitoring
____________________________________________________
I feel you were wrong in cancelling after 5 days. And yes I also feel that the monitoring was wrong. I don't want someone to do work and not get paid. But from my end I don't want to pay for something and not get full value.

Everyone can start an opion. You agreed to one thing. You said questions would be ok. Even after you still said hey we can go over this stuff.

If you had done the right thing and said. Look sorry but I can do the monitoring thing and not questions. I even sent you an email saying forget the questions that might be out of your system admin duties.

My thread according to the admins was moved because of this reason below and nothing else. You can try to call me a lier and tarnish my rep. But I paid for one thing and you backed out.

{Please post in one place or another. A thread asking members to look at another thread is prety pointless (and this has been removed). Your comments have been recorded in the actual thread.}

Like i said with Cpanel I am taking you at your word. (Considering all that 's gone. That's a big stretch.)

Originally posted by sphere2 You can read the thread. If he had not agreed to XYZ services i would not be so unhappy with this outcome. If he lived up to his word, but his word is no good.

{services provided, included are (but are certainly not limited to):
-- CPanel administration
-- Package installation and upgrades
-- Server maintainance (backups, restoring backups, restoring sql databases
and more)
-- Misc system administration tasks}
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greetings,
Thanks for your interest in Wolfstream and it's services. Unfortunately, the
site's greatly under construction at the moment, however the prices and
services won't be changing at all.

As far as server administration, I charge in two seperate ways:
Firstly, for just system administration, the rate is $75 per month for 30
"incidents". Incidents are defined as something that takes more than 15
minutes to handle (most don't take more than 15 minutes at the most). The
services provided, included are (but are certainly not limited to):
-- CPanel administration
-- Package installation and upgrades
-- Server maintainance (backups, restoring backups, restoring sql databases
and more)
-- Misc system administration tasks

Well, I'm very pleased you know how to copy and paste, now, why don't you sit back and actually *read* what he said in his post.

$75 per month for *30 incidents*

He even defined an incident:

Incidents are defined as something that takes more than 15
minutes to handle (most don't take more than 15 minutes at the most).

Now, how many did he handle in that first 5 days? If he did handle 30 incidents, then you're contract is up and he lived up to his end of it.

FYI I am not a friend of his, in fact I've never heard of him before. I just don't like people who cry *I've been scammed* when in fact, from everything *you* have said in *your posts* in this thread, you appear to be the one doing the scamming.

You then expect him to continue to provide you with a service after you've started a chargeback proceedure against him.

Any reasonable person who reads this thread will know who the true scammer is! If I were in wolfstreams shoes, I'd be taking small claims action against you for not only commiting an act of fraud by what you've just done (receiving a service and claiming that you haven't) but for damages as well.

You're new to Linux, you admit that. You should have bought a book, or better still searched Google for general questions. Then and only then should you be asking an administrator questions. Their job is to administer servers, not babysit newbies.

------------
wolfstream, I'd ask the mods to close this thread before it gets out of hand. sphere2 is obviously quite new to the whole thing and is quite clearly unreasonable. Oh and I've bookmarked you in case I need a professional administrator down the track :)

Incognito
Web Hosting Master

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts:
____________________________________________________First time I have laughed today. I see what you mean.

To me it's about honour (Oh the money too.) But I had a choice of 3 services all for the same price. The other companies might well have done the same work, and not quit. I went with tom because after emailing him a few times, he seemed like an ok person. And he said. I don't do the money back. But i do make sure the client is satisfied.

(Had I spoken to his references this would still be the same thing. )

When he quit the service and I tried to talk about it, he wanted me to drop it. I thought scam. When I saw him post today I thought he's going to do this to someone else.

I was happy that the long time cleint of Tom posted. I feel better because maybe he's not a scam artist. But the fact that he quit still makes me think he's not professional. Then to try to charge for emails well that's just wrong, when you said questions were ok.

From Tom's point of view he wants to do the system stuff. From my point of view the only way to know if the system stuff is being done ok is to ask questions.

You made a really valid point with the anology. I see where he was feeling crunched, but then why say he would answer my questions? I don't want to do his admin duties. But I need to know what's being done and what's going on.

To put a complete stranger on the box was one thing. To sit back and ask no questions is another thing.

I am angry cause he did not do what he said. (His word was what I went with.) But now he's trying to make me look dishonest. (The paypal thing) Then calling me cheap, hopeless.

I paid for a services. If being upset for not getting the service is wrong, then like the song says, I don't want to be right. The way he did it, was not professsioal. If nothing else this was what i paid for. But in full what I paid for was 30 days. I don't want him to work for nothing. I have put time in and so has he. But i don't feel justified paying him the $85.00 for quitting. At the same time I think he did do work, but I will not pay full price for someone who would do this. (Take my money and quit.) I can not sanction this.

So I guess paypal will decide this. I am going to double check on my email from paypal. He's said I lied to them, i told them what he himself has said here. Full service not rendered 5 days worked. I paid for 30 days.

Originally posted by sphere2
I really want to be clear. I did not lie to paypal. I did not get merchandise from you because it's not merchandise. I never told them it was. I will find the email if I can, and post it if i have to.
If there is some confusion their their should not be. I told them servcie not rendered.

--
I did you a courtesy not posting the whole email here, or the details of said here,because what followed was private, personal information
--

You have two clents. One who has worked with you for 6 days.
-----
Nope, I have more, I have a few more actually. The time with the individual means nothing at all. The service with the individual means everything.
-----
The other person I don't know. He might be a stranger who just took the time to post. That's fine. He's the one who thinks I'm in the wrong.
-----
Everyone has stated you're wrong here (including myself)
---

Since he's is stating an opion and does not have his money taken then so be it.
--
nobody's money was taken or scammed, except mine if you have your way.
--
Re; the whole email thing, an incident was clearly explained: ANYTHING that takes > 15 minutes for me to deal with. I didn't specifically state one thing. Usually, emails don't take me that long to deal with, but in your case, they did.
---

Like i said with Cpanel I am taking you at your word. (Considering all that 's gone. That's a big stretch.)
---
You didn't have to take me at my word, i told youhow to find out for yourself (the /scripts and /usr/local/cpanel directories didn't even exist)
---
Nothing's all "gone", you still have cpanel on your server, in fact, you still have everything I installed on your server.

You're right, everyone can post an opinion, and, some don't realize when that opinion is wrong (in this case your opinion is clearly so). The problem is your opinion was flamatory and made baseless accusations: 'this guy will rip you off, this guy will scam you', and that in and of itself is (as another user suggested) enough to take you to court over, because I DO have logs to prove that I did the work, that I WaS on your machine and DID respond in a timely fashion to each and every call and email (all in < 12 hours).

Your opinion in this matter is that you have been wronged. Others have proven that you have NOT been wronged (using your own posts, emails and logic). Please just give this thread a rest. Nobody, in their right mind would fault me for not wanting to renew this contract with you, nobody.

It's not about honor, Sphere2, it's about getting something for nothing. Your attitude was what got this thrown in your face in the first place. You would have the best for the cheapest, or no money paid for work done. I don't play that way, period.. I put in quality time on a server, as my clients have testified to, I am a professional, whether you agree to that or not.

No, you're right, I don't appreciate being harassed, constantly having to deal with an email from a client (one single client) every hour or thereabout. Not for the money you paid for services.

You got what you paid for, now you would have more. I can see you wanting more, but reality (and professionalism) say that's not going to happen. I'm sorry.

joshp
WHT Addict

Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 116
____________________________________________________
You are entitled to an opinion.

But I can see Tom posting here. His clients. Even the helpful stranger with the humourous anolgy. They have at least made me think he might not be a complete scammer.

In response to your post. If Tom had stated that emailing would be defined as an incident. Then I clearly would not have hired Tom. He said questions would be ok.

I have been to several unix boards. Several forums. I have read and tried to graps a lot. Even tried to go over some of the basic unix codes. (I am still green.) I admit that. I never said anything else. I came to this forum admitting that i was fully new.

____________________________________________________
You then expect him to continue to provide you with a service after you've started a chargeback proceedure against him
____________________________________________________
I tried to work it out with the merchant (System Admin). He said consider the services covered and don't email him. If I had tried to charge back before he quit then I would not blame him. (He quit fully stating he was not doing anything else.) Not even the monitoring. He gave me no way to contact him to keep the lines of communication opened. So the only way to get my money for services not done was to contact paypal.

I am not sure how you are able to justify this. But you call me a scammer. I took the time to hire someone who was suppose to be professional. Someone who I asked if questions would be ok.

Someone who said yes. Not only will that be ok. But we could take a half an hour everyday and go email back and forth if I wanted that would be fine. Then he quits for the same thing he agreed would be ok. (Principles and professionalism.) But mostly when he did this and gave me no way to reach him at his request I felt he had intentionally scammed me.

____________________________________________________
Any reasonable person who reads this thread will know who the true scammer is! If I were in wolfstreams shoes, I'd be taking small claims action against you for not only commiting an act of fraud by what you've just done (receiving a service and claiming that you haven't) but for damages as well.
____________________________________________________
Yeah I rather like logic. He should take me to court. Well by your logic. I am going to offer 30 days worth of hosting for $1. and offer 5Gb space and 200GB bandwidth. (This is not a real offer in anyway) But I will quit or kick the client out after 5 days, because I feel they got more than what they paid for.

And when they file a compliant. I expect you to be my cheering section.


It's the honour of the thing. I only had to file with paypal. Cause after unprofessionally walking out, he would not even give me a proper avenue to discuss this.

:bawling: sphere2 - Do you really think you paid $75.00 for 30 day's, you paid for 30 incidents. Which from the posts so far you have received and then some. Do the math, 24 x 30 = 720 hours, that's just over .10 cents an hour. Get real, buy a linux book and grow up.

wolfstream - If you have any experience with RAQ3, please contact me at:

mwest@home-port.net

I have a problem you may be able to solve. Thanks:)

ferenczy
Total Newbie

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 1
____________________________________________________
If Tom had said emails would be incidents then yes that would have been fine. Paypal has to decide this.


____________________________________________________
Do you really think you paid $75.00 for 30 day's,
____________________________________________________Yes because if he had said emails would be incidents then that would be differnt. I would not have racked up 30 incidents otherwise. But to get out of this, in my case he is counting the emils as incidents and justifying it.

I do not want Tom work and not get paid. But the way he quit was wrong. If he had said emails would be incidents then that would be fine. (What he has said was sure ask questions.) If he was going to turn that into incidents. I would have gone with a different service.

I really did feel scammed, and when I saw the post, I figured he would do this to someone else. I jumped in to warn people.

I have said it before. He agreed to one thing and did not live up to that.

Your advise for the book is appriciated, (Telling me to grow up is not.) Fully grown. I expected one service and i just do not feel he lived up to it. The monitoring which he walked out on before I went to paypal. Or the server incident clause.

He did work fine, but I am not paying for what was not fulfilled, because I could well have gone with someone else for the same service.

I still feel that he said one thing but did not follow through. Like I said before I spoke to his two clients who were kind enough to post here. I thought he was going to take someone else's money and do this.

He might not be a scammer. But I still don't think it was professional.

____________________________________________________
Tom if you really are not a scammer or a con artist, then yeah I'm sorry. But when you quit and then tried to get this buried. I really felt you had scammed me. Then I was not going to let you do this again to some other new person.

Talking to you long term client I feel a lot better. I am more inclined to believe that you are not a rip off artist. But then professional what you did was wrong in my opinion.

because I could well have gone with someone else for the same service.

Please, enlighten us all. Who would offer you what you're asking for, *unlimited 24/7 support for 30 days* for $75???

That's what you seem to have expected, so, post a request in the appropriate forum for that and see how many offers you get!

Originally posted by wolfstream
I'm not looking to make a killing, or to take all your profits, in fact you'll find my prices are more than reasonable (< $100 a month or $25 per incident).
I'm going to stick my nose in here because this part is a little silly and I see where Sphere is coming from.

I didn't bother reading the majority of the posts because they're quoted in such wierd ways I can't tell who said what and I don't have time to decipher it all, so if what I say has already been said or something, I apologize.

$100 for 30 incidents lasting over 15 minutes (does 2 hours count?) in a single month?! Did someone fail math or economics in school?

So, sphere signs up, gets all this wonderful stuff installed (nine incidents, from your second post to this thread) and then you decide you've had enough and decide to renig on your contract? On top of it, now you're charging him for the time to write an email? If emails were part of the agreement, then that's fine, but sphere didn't seem to think it was.

So let's look at it from my point of view. If I am on the hunt for a part-time/per-incident admin, I would come across this post and say "holy cow, $25 per incident?!" Heck, a hundred clams for 30 incidents! That's the same as getting 26 for free!! If I paid money to you, I'm going to hold you to our agreement, whether you think it's unfair or not. It's like me going to a host offering 60GB of bw for $5 a month, using 20GB, and getting cut off because I was using too much. Hell, $5 for 20GB, that's a hell of a deal, right? It sure is, but that's not what I paid for. I _specifically_ paid for 60GB. That's grounds for me getting my money back as I feel scammed.

Also, the emails I read from you to sphere sound incredibly UNprofessional. I mean, look at this one!!
On Saturday 05 October 2002 02:31 pm, you wrote:
> I realise you need to have the emails come to you for your system
> admin duties.
>
> I would appreciate changes like that to be forwarded to me in future.
>
> But I also want to have any system issues forwarded to me.
>
> I have created an email that will forward to your email and well as my
> email.
>
> Please confirm that you have received this email.
>
> Thanks.
>
> GmB
Ugh,
First off you have no idea what these mails mean, how to fix the problems or
anything of the like.

Once again, step away from the system administrative position and let the
professional handle this. You can't even handle linux itself, this is clearly
seen.

I'm not going to argue with you about this. It's that simple. If you can't
leave me the leeway to do my job, you will find yourself in a load of hot
water really fast.

You MAY be a great admin (web wise), but when it comes to Linux youknow
NOTHING about diagnosing problems an trying to fix them.

I'm NOT going to ask for your approval on things that don't even relate to you
(I am a skilled system administrator, you aren't even a linux user) when you
can do nothing but damage with them.
How can you talk to a customer like that?!!? It doesn't matter if they aren't as smart as you, are complaining about your service, or are rude themselves!! How on earth can you justify talking to a customer like that?! If one of my vendors/providers talk to me like that, I'd raise hell with them. That's highly unprofessional. You may know your way around unix, but it sounds to me like you need to work heavily on your people skills.

Maybe if you increased your prices and actually lived up to your agreement, people wouldn't act the way sphere did. I wouldn't hire you to reboot my server on a payment schedule like yours, simply because if you don't feel you need to charge enough for your services, I feel you don't have the confidence and without that, I've got a useless admin on my hands.

I get the feeling you got in over your head with Sphere, even after you agreed to help him and answer his questions, and decided to bail out. While that's bad in itself, making this post and offering what seems to be the same service is even worse.

Work on your people skills and honor your agreements and then I'll start to consider you as a professional. Otherwise, you just seem like a kid trying to make a quick buck.

I probably had more points to cover, but I forgot them by now...

i don't usually get involved in things like this, but it sounds in this case that there are two "innocent" parties.. if i can step up to the soap box for a bit, perhaps it's time to take a step back and see what both of you can learn.

wolfstream, it sounds like you may provide a pretty good service... the "problem" here seems to be a lack of communication (ie, sphere2 felt asking questions was okay, but doesn't seem to understand where questions become "teach me". it sounds like wolfstream, you "may" not have adequately explained the difference (and it definitely is a fine line!) i'm sure anyone in tech support can relate to the occasional users who feels full on training is included in the cost of a service... perhaps, in the future, if you could provide a document outlining this sort of distinction it may help out a bit? also, your prices do seem kinda low, don't want to come off as telling you how to run your business but i'd be you'd do equally as well, if not better, if you doubled your rates! in fact, if you could PM me your resume i'd be happy to keep it on hand, if that's okay with you?

sphere2, i understand where the confusion may have come from, and partly understand your frustration. i think perhaps it would be good to count this as a learning experience, i know it may feel like you're getting the short end of the stick here, but in reality, the services provided for $75 is a beyond excellent deal. i think it's fair to ask to be updated as to work, etc.. however questions to have a habit of becoming "give me free advice" which is a hard subject for any service provider to tactfully get around (ie, try getting free advice from any lawyers, accountants, doctors, etc...)

<sappy ending>i hope you guys can resolve this, because sphere2, if you can get over this, and wolfstream, if you can provide a distinction, i wouldn't be suprised to see you guys working together again... </sappy ending>

joshp
WHT Addict

Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 117


____________________________________________________
If I am not mistaken. And I can try to find the exact post. But here is one.

ikiwi.net (I hope you guys don't mind me posting your ad info.)

With our managed services we do a number of things. We will do server updated, security fixes, and install new software. We like to be on your box throughout the day to make sure everything is running without a hitch and it also lets us to respond to problems much faster if we are on your server. We also setup scripts so that if anything goes down and I'm not on the computer it will give me a phone call so I can be on your box within minutes. We also give you my icq, aim, msn, and cell phone # incase you have any questions. We also do some tech support situations, i.e. you go on vacation and you need someone to answer support tickets, we will help you out there. If you have any more questions please don't hesitate to contact me.
____________________________________________________
And http://www.boxadmin.com/pricing.html

I would have to look around the forums for the specific offer. But these were the three I considered. And if I recall correctly the service and the price were around the same.
____________________________________________________
When i go for Cpanel or an Admin I really do try to find the best price in town. I do this my looking around and searching checking forums and asking around to the best of my ability.

I have to that end found 2 places that will give you Cpanel for $50.00 per month.

And I have found three admins for around the same.


There was also a forth offer for a shared space for $89.00 managed $200Gb bandwith 60 drive and so forth.

The reason I did not go for fully managed, was as I explained to Tom a couple of times, because i wanted to help out as much as I could.

The to do list he sent me the first day. I was really happy. Tried to do all the things on the to do list. Because as I told him. I really didn't want someone doing all the work and me sitting back and doing nothing, not getting involved.

I had other offers. And maybe they would have worked out better. Because this did not.

Of course I'm not a scammer. Again, you are the one who would scam me from my monies. I worked (30 incidents+) for this. You've not only filed (fraudulently) with paypal, you bring this to my place of business, claiming I have scammed you, that I have ripped you off.

I never said email was NOT an incident, in fact I specifically stated (and I quote, AGAIN):

Incidents are defined as something that takes more than 15 minutes to handle (most don't take more than 15 minutes at the most)

Do I deal with 30 emails in a month from an individual client? Probably not (though in some I do). Do I usually charge them for them? No, because most clients realize my time is precious and don't disturb me unless needed. Do I usually charge for emails? No. Do I usually get 30 emails in 3 days from clients? No!
One can not anticipate these things, and even at that (without the emails), you got a bargain, quite so for the installation, etc...

Can this whole thing be resolved? I'd hope so, but I won't get back into the arrangement again, because it's more demanding than can be imagined. I understand you want to "learn" about things, but you need to not interfere with system admin stuff (as I explained in email as well), and let the professional do his/her job. You won't let that happen.

Most individuals are smart enough to realize a bargain when they see it. In my case, services are quite rendered at quite a bargain. You received more than anything, service, from me. You received more service from me than I give most, you received more contact from me than I would give most in a week (daily communication, how do you do this, how do you do that, etc). Administration is one thing, but I have a business to run (a professional one), and never once agreed to spend all day holding your hand, explaining these things to you. Yes, I said anhour a day (something I should have never agreed to), at a specified time, yet, you popped in with this or that all day long, and, I found it more than deterring from my work.

I love the work I do (I've been working with computers for 20+ years, believe it or not), and would hardly be even remotely familliar with things in this field if I didn't. To see myself insulted and accused of scamming someone, it's just wrong, out and out wrong.

Yes, I do work for cheap, not because I am not talented, but because I know my stuff, and I feel that there's no need for OVER charging someone for something they didn't receive. had you not received something, I would have refunded things. However, in this case you haven't. In this case, you've MORE than exceeded things, and I'm sorry to say that.

I did (and do) recommend you buy a book or two on Linux usage and system administration, because this is the best way to learn (it's how I learned actually), and believe me you won't learn overnight.

The problem you have Sphere2 is that you want to know everything, and you want to continuously be informed about that which you know nothing about, as explained in emails. I don't have the time to be constantly chasing down and writing emails (that's not what I get paid for, I get paid to administrate a system, to ensure it's safe and secure, and up to date), and I did say that at the beginning.

Unfortunately, as has been said here, you got a bargain for your $$$, seriously. I've said it, others have said it. What you did with that bargain is choose to insult me publically, and crap on my thread (not a good choice).

allera
Web Hosting Master

Registered: Apr 2001
Posts: 1072

___________________________________________________
Part of the reason I really thought he was a scammer was becasue after he quit, he would not let me debate it. He just wanted the whole thing squashed.

To me doing that just left the mark of a scammer. The other thing was he started off as being really polite and professional.

Then when I asked questions well yeah the emails were rude.

But then after he quit. I really felt that he had just taken my money. There was still monitoring which I don't get now and there is no way we covered 30 incidents. I think I still have the email where he said he would let me ask questions and we would set a time in the evening.

So this is what I was expecting. If I just wanted someone on my box doing their own thing. I would have gone with offer number one. But I really didn't want to be cut out of my box and what was happening. He said I could not learn over night, but he would be happy to show me.

I will try to find the email. When he quit the way it was done. I really thought scam. And to see him up the price today and then I just thought he would pull in another newbie.

But I when his long time client spoke up, I think ok. Maybe he's not scamming, but till then I really thought he had scammed me.

Thanks for understanding because now the box is just their. I finally got to the stage where I wanted to move everything to a single box. Like I said hosting yes and selling, customer service I am thier. Linux I'm new.

The forums here and else where have been really helpful. I am learning as much as I can.

I thought a box that was fully loaded with Cpanel would give a system admin very little work. And then I could do some of the duties too. So he would have very little to do.

I even asked if he liked webmin or Cpanel.

I think I agree with the other poster. I am trying to step back and see this from both points of view.

But I really appriciated you taking the time to post.

i am a
WHT Addict

Registered: Nov 2000
Posts: 109

____________________________________________________
Now that I have spoken to his customers I think yeah. The service might have been ok. But the only way i could know if he was doing good work was to ask questions.

IF he had answered them in a decent manner, my confidence and trust would have grown. Instead his answers were rude, and let me thinking a) He either is not doing the job. B) Or he doesn't know what he's doing.

He is a complete stranger who I took a chance on. If the emails had been answered in a decent manner and not look your in over your head. I'm the professional here.

You don't know anything about linux. (True) But not a reason for not answering my questions.

Like he said in the beginning. How else do we learn but by asking?

I think I like your advise, and I think you had some really valid points.

____________________________________________________
<sappy ending>i hope you guys can resolve this, because sphere2, if you can get over this, and wolfstream, if you can provide a distinction, i wouldn't be suprised to see you guys working together again... </sappy ending>
____________________________________________________
I don't know about sappy ending. But I did not enter this to be bitter, uset, get scammed, or be accused of scamming.

Now that I think he maybe is not a bad person. I am going to review everything. There is no way 30 incidents were incured. But he did do work. And to not get paid for that, does not feel good to me. But I am a hell of a long way from feeling the full $85.00 is worth the rudeness, the walking out and the lack of monitoring which were paid extra for. Plus he said questions were ok.

I am going to step away from this and try to find an equatable solution. I don't think what he did was fair. But I don't want to not pay for the work that was done. (Now that I think he's not a scammer) He give 30 incidents for $75.00 I will ask for specific system stuff that was done. Then decide from there.

Thanks for the advice.

sphere,

no offense, but i suggest you take the rest of your cash, go to the corner store, and buy a big canister of common sense =]

the services provided to you were well worth the $75. i provide similar services as wolfstream, and i *know* that i would have charged at least that, and perhaps more. i also have a 'smart customer' surcharge, for people just like you.

let me explain myself: you are paying good money to have excellent work done on your boxen. you are paying well below market price for these services. your admin is willing to answer any and all *informed* questions. yet you insist on wasting his time which is better used to provide you with services by asking him questions which would have been easily dealt with by actually *reading*. i know it might come as news to you, but there are things called 'books', which were written by people specifically for the purpose of explaining the fundamentals instead of having to rehash them over and over again with clueless individuals. the printing press was a breakthrough for humanity for exactly that reason - you could transfer your expertise and knowledge to countless others in a concise and expeditious manner, without taking up your time better spent on other pursuits.

something you need to read:
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

the above is a guide on how to ask questions if you want them answered.

i suspect wolfstream pulled the 'stupidity' clause, as would countless others who think stupidity should be a felony.

please note, it is not your lack of knowledge pertaining to linux, but rather your stubborn inability to at least attempt to evaluate another (smarter) person's point of view, which makes you stupid in my book.

a lot of knowledgeable people have posted in this thread and supplied a lot of good arguments, which at least warrant some thought and consideration. did you ponder any of their points? if not, it is high time you did.

again, please dont take offense to this post. i call them as i see them. granted, i am usually more subtle and tactful than this, but given your tone my sincerity is justified.

you accused somebody of 'scamming', which in my book is an extremely strong statement (requiring strong evidence to back it up). by doing so, you have made yourself fair game for my equally strong statements.

by posting the above, i am hoping to cast a shadow of a doubt in your mind regarding your infallibility (you are not the pope after all ;). please tuck your ego away, and give it some thought.

cheers,
paul

NEWS FLASH

wolfstream will no longer be providing his services since he is unable to use his fingers. Doctors reported that huge lethal blisters formed on his hand as a result of defending himself.


j/k :stickout .... aren't you guys tired of typing yet? I think this is why they invented email ;)

sphere,

i have lost my patience and didnt read your last 2 posts. i see that you are giving it some thought, due to which certain parts of my previous post no longer hold true.

i apologize for my bluntness, as i would like you to see you consider apologizing to wolfstream for slinging dirt at him in public fora.

good luck with your endeavor,
paul

For calling you a scammer I've said I'm sorry. You were only called a scammer because I thought you had ripped me off and were going after other. I really did think you were going to take other for their money.

Second. After you emailed me saying you didn't want to hold my hand, you were the professional not me and that I should just leave the system stuff to you this was the following email.

I realised asking you questions was not working. So on the 4th I said forget it. Traiing is outside of your admin duties. (But you are the one who agreed that this would be ok. I was not trying to get stuff for free. You said this would be ok. This was the second email you said it was ok. But I was sick of the rudeness so I just said, still to system admin stuff.

Then you said I was paranoid for asking you questions, and kept telling me i should just relax I was getting a good deal. The only way to know this was by asking what you were doing? A lot of my questions were generated around this and Cpanel stuff you had given me in the 2 do list you sent.

Also a lot of the email were valid stuff. You even said you understood their would be more questions at first.

I agree with what you said about delgating authourity. But who you delagate authority to and who you trust depends on how they act and treat you. Your mannerism lead me to think that maybe you were not doing what you said.

When I asked questions you would be rude, and not answer. A professional gains their clients confidence by being open. You did this for the first two days, then stopped answering questions.

How can you delegate authority if you don't know someone can be trusted? Had you answered the questions and lived up to what you said the questions get less and less, when I know you can be trusted.

This did not work out, and am going to try to step back and think about this.

My way of doing things would have been talking to you about them. But you cancelled. Took my money then said don't email.
I really thought it was a scam.




10/4/2002 9:10:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: wolf@wolfstream.net (Tom Whiting)




> As far as training is concerned. I think your job function is being system
> admin. I think asking you to be a trainer might be outside of your
> specified job functions. (So let's not worry about that too much.)


You miss my point here, I said earlier that I'd give an hour or two a day, and
I will gladly give an hour a day to doing that. NOT to training you to be a
system admin, but to actually use linux (something you clearly don't
understand yet).

> I certainly do not want someone to have to sit with me and "hold my hand."
> (Thus why I want to learn to take care of my own.) However everyone's time
> is valuable here, and you letting me know what you are and are not capable
> of is fine.


To be honest, you're in WAY over your head here. Learning to take care of your
own is great, but you'll never ever learn it in just 1 week, or even 1
month, or even 1 year. It takes time, practice and actually grasping the
system itself.


> I think paranoid and being a responsible server owner are two different
> things. It's my server anything goes wrong it's my ass. I appreciate you
> might be competent and know what you are doing, but bottom line I'm still
> responsible for anything and anyone on that server. (I take that really
> seriously.) Sitting back in ignorant bliss and letting someone else run the
> show and taking no responsibility to have an active role in the management
> does not work for me.


Being a responsible server owner means the same thing as being a great and
responsible company or corporation owner: delegating authority and tasks, and
NOT interfering in areas they are not familliar with. For example;
I don't do sales, period, so I generally have people go out and do the sales
stuff for me. I don't bug them and say 'how are you doing, today, how's the
sales coming, what does this mean?' etc... I leave them to do their task.
They have to be trusted enough to do their job, and ultimately, so do I. I
take my job extremely (EXTREMELY) seriously, and I take interferance in that
job just as seriously.


> There is already enough criticism for people who own servers and don't
> bother to take the time to know anything about them. Server management is
> your expertise. (Owning and managing a website is suppose to be my
> expertise. I think that means taking an active role.) If I don't know
> what's going on with my own server that's just irresponsible.


Owning and managing a website has nothing (nothing) to do with system
administrative work whatsoever. Most website owners and managers don't know
or understand 1 bit of what it takes to actually, fully administrate a
server, and if they saw the work that actually went into it, would back out.

sphere2, please click on the QUOTE icon (bottom right of the post you are quoting), as I found it hard to read what you were quoting and your own text as well.

Bottom line: Did you get $75 worth of admin'ing? If so, then leave it rest. Wolf should have laid out the terms better, if indeed the customer was confused, and never talked down to a client, no matter what. Why? They quote you on message boards and you end up looking like a donkey.

rusko
Junior Guru Wannabe

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 44
-____________________________________________________
Calling me stupid. Then telling me not to take offense.

To recommend a book is fine. The way you have done it is insulting and not welcome. Call me old fashioned, but what else would someone take if not offense to being called stupid and lacking in common sense?

____________________________________________________
I can only assume that you have been on my box and therefore are commenting on the quality of wolfstreams work based on that.


____________________________________________________
the services provided to you were well worth the $75. i provide similar services as wolfstream, and i *know* that i would have charged at least that, and perhaps more. i also have a 'smart customer' surcharge, for people just like you.
____________________________________________________
People like me? People who ask a lot of questions before during and after a transaction.

I bet if I hired him, didn't ask questions, hosted clients and then something went wrong you would be the same person in this post saying i was stupid for not asking questions from the server admin.

Customer put faith in me. I quized him, because those same people deserve the best. If he had answered the questions. Or lived up to what he said. I would not have thought he was scamming.

People keep saying what a great job he did. You are taking his word that this was done. (I am too.) That it was done well. I again am taking his word, because when I asked about this or that that he said he did not mind answering I never received appropricate responses.

I took the time to read your post. I appriciate your appology, as i hope Tom has done mine. But bottom line.

Why promise something and then back out? I had no way of knowing he was not a scammer. I really thought he had taken the money. His Professional attitude could not let me believe anything else.

Part of the reason i thought he was scamming was because of how he acted.

That quote button. (A gem.)

Yes but email would be the same amount of typing. I see what you mean. But like I said. I have said it twice. After talking to the long time client. I don't believe he scammed. But I dont' believe he was professional or did the full work he said he would do.


Originally posted by phpcoder
NEWS FLASH

wolfstream will no longer be providing his services since he is unable to use his fingers. Doctors reported that huge lethal blisters formed on his hand as a result of defending himself.


j/k :stickout .... aren't you guys tired of typing yet? I think this is why they invented email ;)

Originally posted by allera

I'm going to stick my nose in here because this part is a little silly and I see where Sphere is coming from.

I didn't bother reading the majority of the posts because they're quoted in such wierd ways I can't tell who said what and I don't have time to decipher it all, so if what I say has already been said or something, I apologize.


If you didn't read the posts, then please,don't jump to one side of the fence or the other here, as you know half (if that) of the whole story.
Yes, I did back cancel the agreement with Sphere2, NOT because I am not a professional, but because he was demanding more services and more time than he had right to. I told him last week to limit his requests and linux questions to an hour a day, and, to be honest, he couldn't even do that.I was (literally) bombarded with "what is this' questions all day long.. Hell, the poor guy tried opening a system file in Wordpad!!

Did Sphere2 get a bargain? Oh yeah. Did I live up to my contract ? By the fine lines, yes (a very very very fine line, but I did). I quote, once more:
"Incidents are defined as something that takes more than 15 minutes to handle "

Never did I specifically leave out email, or anything of the like. Did this individual know each and every time i was in the system? No. In fact, this individual wouldn't know how to find this information out.

Do I live up to my word? Quite so. I don't charge per hour, and for good reason. Not because I'm not qualified, but because I don't care to. If a customer wants a 24/7 dedicated tech, they're going to pay a LOT more than what they did or do for my services (I'm usually reasonably good about screening customers, I just thought I could hold this individual to an hour a day. My bad)

Whether or not sphere thought email was a valid incident (see above definitiion again) is not my concern. By above definition, ANYTHING involving more than 15 minutes of my work is an incident. Again, emails don't usually count, but I don't usually receive 30+ emails in 3 days. That's outrageous.

You choose to not look at me as a professional based on the snow job done by one (ex) client, who would have something for nothing, and would insist on a 24/7 tech being available for those rates. That is your choice, but, believe me, it's not how reality is.

The email you quoted was the last email I sent this customer as a client, and is every bit appropriate. AS a non-linux user, he needs to let the professionals do their job and step out of system administration completely, untill such time as he IS a linux user. I explaind this to him 4 times nicely, and upon the last time (that email), I had used the last bit of my patience in matters. Perhaps it wasn't right, perhaps it was. Regardless, he knew he was paying for system administration, and that training would be given, when i had the time (not all day long).

To those that think I need to charge more:
I don't charge more, because I do love the work I do, and aim to offer that to the every day host, not just the large hosts that can afford a huge sallary for a Linux Tech. That's not me, that's definitely not my style. My style is (and always has been) to offer an affordable, reasonably priced server administration package to everyone concerned. I set my prices accordingly, not to how "skilled" I am. That's just wrong.

Chicken
Moderator

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 11039
____________________________________________________
You are right this is what it comes down to.

I honestly don't know. If we are going by what he agreed to then no I really don't feel he did.

30 incidents. No.

But did he do work. I believe so. (He would not answer the questions, for me to assertain this.) But I believe he was doing work. I believe he was trying. And talking to his customers who know this stuff, I believe he might even have done a good job.

I have Cpanel (I believe him when he says that he is the one who installed it.) I don't know which security was put in place exactly.

I know the monitoring which he talked me into was not taken care of cause that was for 30 days.

I don't feel good if he doesn't get paid. But again I just don't feel he lived up to what he said.

I am going take the time try to evaluate what he actually did. Then divide it per incident. I won't be including emails.


P.S. Thanks for the quote tip.

Originally posted by sphere2
Chicken
Moderator

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 11039
____________________________________________________
You are right this is what it comes down to.
I honestly don't know. If we are going by what he agreed to then no I really don't feel he did.


Again, read the posts of the other experts just in this forum. You got a deal for $75. There should be no question about this.

As far as "incidents", that shouldn't really be a question, as I clearly defined them as anything (anything) that takes up > 15 minutes. Yes, it's walkin (no dancing) a fine line there, but it is true.

Then you were just rude when I asked questions. Last week you could not have told me to limit my emails to an hour per week. Becasue we were not working together last week.

I was the one who said. Maybe this is outside of your admin duties. I'm the one who decided to finish that part of the deal.
As per the email i posted.

Some of those emails were me asking that things be done a certain way. (More than once.) As a client I would have expected that at the least.

I never asked for something for nothing. You said this was included in said service then did not deliver. We could go on, and I guess we have. I never wanted to sit and email all day.

I just wanted my questions answered in a respectful professional manner.

If they had been my questions would have decreased dramatically. Instead I had to try to figure out what you were doing, and if it was being done well.

wolfstream
WHT Addict

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 111
____________________________________________________

I have to be the expert. You can fine line this to death. I have two seperate sets of emails.

The first where you agree to sit down for a half an hour everyday

then a second one where you offer an hour or two. (Which i declined.) Truthfully because of your attitude.

The experts here have not been on the box. I believe you have done work. But you did not live up to what you said, and there is a real feeling of descrepancy there.

Maybe you didn't scam intentionally, but i still feel cheated. Professionally this was not the service I paid for. But I want to find a common ground.

I am stepping away from this. I am going to go over this and decide what to do.

Some of the people here were pretty decent about helping out.


Thanks for your help.

Let it die already Sphere, you've already crapped on the thread quite heavily. I was more than decent the entire week, even after you started expecting more than what you paid for. Had I not been, I would have told you in a not so nice term where to go.. It took everything I had NOT to do so, but I didn't.

You've already had multiple people tell you you got a bargain and a steal (more than I would care to count), just walk away and let it go.

When it comes down to it:
Technical time is valuable (I told you this more than once). If you want a trainer, a teacher, then go find a local friend to do this, or hire someone, but you need to PAY them more than $85 to teach you.

I (very politely) asked you to leave system administrative business to the professional (myself), as it was the job you told me to do, the job I was hired to do, the job I do very well. You repeatedly would not. That is not my fault. When it comes down to it, you were asked repeatedly to let me do my job and leave me to do it. You couldn't do that. You insisted on knowing everything (though you wouldnt have a clue what to DO with that everything).

Please, edit your earlier posts at the very least. You have seriously torn this thread apart, called me a scammer and a liar in here, of which I am not.

Patience, I will grant you is not my quality, however, you'll be lucky to find a linux tech who is patient enough for you:).My quality and strongpoint is and has ALWAYS been system administration and technical matters.

Please, stop crapping on this thread and just let it be sphere2 (and you wonder why I wouldn't respond via email, right here, you insist your point is right, even when it's wrong). If you're truly sorry for what you've said, you'll actually fix the posts that said what you did (if you have, I haven't seen it yet). You'll find the edit button right next to the quote one.. Please, just walk away from this thread altogether, as your point has very well been attempted at being proven.

I don't rip anyone off, I DO value my professional services and that which I offer. I enjoy what I do, and make a (decent) living out of it.. I wouldn't be able to hold my head up straight if I didn't.

Again, please, just stop posting in this thread (you've made more posts in here today than I have and that's not good) and fix your original posts.

Thank you

I read the first one or two pages and I couldn't be bothered reading the rest. No matter how you break it down, it's the same problem.

#1: If you hire him, what do you expect for this price?

#2: If you hire him, how does he expect he can realistically provide a service for such a low price? This problem is a perfect example. It became too much to deal with. Why? Because it's not worth it. This is why people don't offer a month's of real administration for around $80. Why? Because you can't justify it for that price unless you enjoy wasting your time. This is why he set the limits on how many incidents you can have,

#3: He needed to be clear to you that emails would count towards the total incidents.

#4: If he promised you a month's of service -- or 30 incidents -- he needed to outline what those things were.

The way I see it, is that you made a mistake in what you expected, and he made a mistake in how he handled it. He should have clearly told you (without insulting you), that emails will _start_ counting as incidents, rather than loosing it and telling you off. It was his fault for promising to offer services for an unrealistic price and he should have amended that by explaining that emails do (or can) count towards the total time and how it's unreasonable.

Perhaps there was some miscommunication and perhaps he should have outlined the tasks he'd perform better, but you also did get your money's worth. Yet I can also understand that you want fully what he promised. So, he needs to simply explain you have so many incidents left and not use that as an excuse to quite suddenly without warning you before hand that they'd count. I honestly can't imagine what either of you expected for the price and the services promised.

You both should have discussed this more professionally, dropped the insults and stubbornness and simply explained that the emails would now start counting towards the total and it would have worked itself out (unless someone complained that since they weren't told initially they will expect the world for this price until those 30 days are up). However once the circumstances were explained, no one with any rational bone in their body would agree with the person that hired you. A lesson to learn for both of you, the way I see it.

To be honest, I actually have this arrangement with all of my clients, 2host, and up untill now it's been no problem at all. In fact, most have commented it's rather decent, and affordable to them. However, because of this thread, and to prevent future problems, it will be modified (not greatly so, but a little bit more detailed)

The problem:
I hate creating rules and regulations, because they are limits to everything, and I've found that people ultimately complain about them. In this case, though they would have done a great deal of good.


Most anyone can offer a reasonable service at the price I do, again, I've had no problems untill just now. Then again, most clients up untill sphere2 understood that I am not going to devote my entire time to them, that they're not paying for a dedicated 24/7 admin, they are paying for limited administration. For example: if something drastic comes up, I come running, and believe me, I HAVE had to come running a couple of times, and I fix the problem. If a security issue comes up, I know about it within 30 minutes, and I solve the problem, or forward the issue to the server administrator. If something needs recompiled, I offer the best way to handle things. If a service is down (ftp, apache, etc), I can usually diagnose the problem and have it resolved in < 30 minutes, and, my clients know this. In fact, I think the longest I have spent working on an 'incident" was 3 hours, and that was because an sql table had to be repaired, rebuilt, tested, and the client screwed it up again (not the client, but a client of the client).

Again, I don't do this to make a killing, I do this merely to enjoy doing what I do, to offer my services at an affordable cost to everyone. Perhaps, yes, emails should have been defined as an incident, but, then, that would mean clients would be afraid to write, fearing they'd use up their 'incidents'. Then again, by not doing so, well, you see what happened here (30-40 emails, 3 days, ugh).

I've offered this service before, and never had a problem. Why now? Because someone was unrealistic in their wants? Perhaps. Because I failed to finely detail the agreement (though I did state that anything > certain time was an incident), again, perhaps. Then again, most have the common sense to know that my services aren't theirs solely, and I do have other clients to deal with.

There IS a fine line between "scamming" people and not doing so, and this is quite on the safe side of it. It's like insurance. You don't need it most of the time, but when you do, you're damn thankful you have it. I may spend a few hours a month on maintainance of each server, but not much. My real time spent is usually when something goes wrong, or a new feature is requested, and something new needs to be recompiled.

This discussion is out of control. Both parties would do themselves well to end it now.

I also have hired Tom to do work on one of my servers. He did make it clear that at the price he charges that the amount of time he can allocate is limited. This is perfectly logical. I believe that the person flaming him in this thread is far more needy than I, or most of Tom's other customers. The unhappy customer's expectations were too high, rather than Tom's service being too low. Perhaps this unhappy customer should re-examine whether running a hosting company is a good idea.

It's absurd, however, to make a claim that Tom is a fraudster. If he were a fraudster, he wouldn't be posting here still.

I believe he charged you way to low sphere. If your in the hosting company... what is $75.00 to you? To run something decent you need a $30 grand investment. Take the money out of that. I'm suprised with you having a fit over $75.00 and calling Tom a scammer that you even have enough money to pay your dedicated server bills (if you even have one).

Lately I've been quite upset about extremely low prices that I've seen around in various places. What ever happened to 'Making enough money to make a living'? Sometimes it gets quite rediculous as I've seen hosting for as low as $3.00 a month. This is very upsetting because usually companies that offer such deals as this provide low quality support, down time, etc. I'm sorry to get off topic... it's just very dissapointing. I probably should've became a fireman or something.

In the end, it all comes down to your contract, if it states he can cancel the contract and still keep your money, your screwed. But if it dosent directly state that even if he voids the contract there is still no refund, then when he cancelled your arangement he also cancelled the no refund policy.....If he broke the contract then the contract is void, includding the no refund part.

Originally posted by ninji
In the end, it all comes down to your contract, if it states he can cancel the contract and still keep your money, your screwed. But if it dosent directly state that even if he voids the contract there is still no refund, then when he cancelled your arangement he also cancelled the no refund policy.....If he broke the contract then the contract is void, includding the no refund part.

Actually , there was no "contract" per se, other than the understanding that common sense is required (you can't email an individual 40x in 3 days and not expect that person to gladly respond each time, or not expect that to count against things).

In the future, the terms WILL be reworded (they are being so now), to prevent problems just like this. Unfortunately, that involves limits, and that deters from the original theory of things.

When it comes down to it, as I've said the past few posts, common sense is needed. The individual purchased quite an affordable deal, expected much more than what he purchased, and when the end of that deal (and then some) came about, he cried wolf.

Common sense would dictate that you don't email an individual this many times in this short of a period of time, and expect things to be "perfect".

Common sense would dictate that you don't ignore emails, specifically stating that he needs to understand that I am not his personal 24/7 tech.

Common sense would dictate that you don't come running every time you have a minor question, that you don't expect someone you pay such a low price to hold your hand and baby you through the process and train you 5+ hours a day

Again, not that it matters to Sphere2, but things are getting reworded (because of this individual), to prevent future problems. Unfortunately, as I said, this creates more restrictions.

Originally posted by wolfstream


Actually , there was no "contract" per se, other than the understanding that common sense is required (you can't email an individual 40x in 3 days and not expect that person to gladly respond each time, or not expect that to count against things).

In the future, the terms WILL be reworded (they are being so now), to prevent problems just like this. Unfortunately, that involves limits, and that deters from the original theory of things.

When it comes down to it, as I've said the past few posts, common sense is needed. The individual purchased quite an affordable deal, expected much more than what he purchased, and when the end of that deal (and then some) came about, he cried wolf.

Common sense would dictate that you don't email an individual this many times in this short of a period of time, and expect things to be "perfect".

Common sense would dictate that you don't ignore emails, specifically stating that he needs to understand that I am not his personal 24/7 tech.

Common sense would dictate that you don't come running every time you have a minor question, that you don't expect someone you pay such a low price to hold your hand and baby you through the process and train you 5+ hours a day

Again, not that it matters to Sphere2, but things are getting reworded (because of this individual), to prevent future problems. Unfortunately, as I said, this creates more restrictions.



That you treat you clients like a professional and you do so with dignity and respect. Also common sense on your part would dictate that you don't offer a client the ability to ask questions when you are honestly not willing to answer them in any decent way shape or form.

You take pride in your know how while trying to belittle your clients and others. Great you are good with linux and a professional? Act like it.

Anyways part of this contract was my ability to be able to trust this person to his word. There is no way we had 30 incidents, and as i have started when the emails were too much you should have simply said I will have to conut them as incidents from here on in.

Regardless. What I have decided to do is pay for the service you did render, cause I don't want someone to go without being paid for something they did. You did it without any respect, decency, or professionalism. And without living up fully to what you said, but there was work done.

Bragging about how much you know, and how little I know. (I did say don't know linux when I hired you.) You would have been better putting the bragging and the insults into answer my questions so that i could know you were doing a decent job. Then I would not have to have kept asking quesitons.

As far as paypal. This is what I wrote. If i said 3 days instead of 5 that was an error. But everything else at the time I felt was correct, especially when I thought you had ripped me off.

customer message: Message: 'I paid a merchant for 30 days worth of
services. He quit after just 3 days and is refusing to refund my money.

He thinks that because he quit and his comapany does not have a refund
policy that it's ok to not work for the rest of the month, and to not
refund my account.

If the services are not done and he will not give a refund is their
anything that paypal can do?

I do not think that a merchant that operates like this should be in the
paypal community.
_____________________________________________
Reword your contract for your clients all you need to, but also reword your attitude. If you had handled this with respect and professionalism. We would not be here. Quitting and then saying just forget it don't email might leave some people feeling scammed. After 5 days of work.

Also if I had high expectations, it was due to what you agreed to.
The questions were a lot, but it was because I did not get the answers that I need when I asked.

Don't offer something you can't live up to. That's about it.
___________________________________________________
2host.com -You always seem to have good opinions I think you summed up some of this really well. Thanks for your post.

petertdavis -This was the first time I hired a system admin. My expectations were based on what he promised. Else I would have gone with the original company for the same price. When someone says something I expect them to live up to it.

Gregory -I think your post kinda went off topic. But it's the principle of the thing. (Like Matlock would say.) Don't know if ya ever watched that show.

ninji-I fully agree. But contract or not his word was what I went with. I think you can have all the paper work in the world. A good attitute and not promising what you can't deliver would have been fine. I hired him as system admin. He set the expectations.
If things got to intense he needed to say so.

Just like two children who have to get in the last word...I only have one comment to make:

Thank God I never have to deal with either of you.

I apologize for the nature of this post, but enough is enough. You have both done severe damage to your own reputations (can't blame the other one) and all over $75. Is that all the value you put on your reputation?

Incognito-You are right. Kindergarten has nothing on us. I appologise to the web commuity that it had to come here. It came here cause I thought he was dishonest. But regardless I realise that he may be many things but at least from talking to his clients I now feel a scammer is not one of them.

___________________________________________________
Tom. I will be cancelling my paypal appeal. Keep the $75.00 it's a good learning experience. The other $10.00 that's up to you. The monitoring is clearly not going to get done.

Other than this post which I am leaving as is. If there is anything else I will try to correct it. The last time. I do appologise for calling you a scammer. The way you quit and the manner you did it in made me think that you were scamming me. Realising that you are not a scammer. (Maybe not professional.) But not a scammer. So for that I will and do appologise.

If you are going to keep this thread alive. I'm going to try to be person enough to just walk away. (Try being the operative word.)

I would appreciate it if a mod would lock this thread please, as it is resulting in nothing but flames any longer.

[erased my soap box schpill due to the fact it seems people have their head on straight now]

Good Luck wolfstream.



;)

Incog, it's far more than about $75 (or $85 in this case). Services were provided, that Sphere2 would have paid much more for elsewhere. In this case, sphere2 got more than he was promised, and would want more.

It's even about more than that though. It's about the individual, personal attack on my character and person. I am as much of a professional as I can be, I offer affordable services to individuals (more redefined), and yes, have received a few offers from things here over the past few weeks.

The thing that really kills is that I do offer quite a service, and am a Linux professional, yet there are countless that would read this thread and take the word of sphere2 that I am a scammer. The damage has (seriously) been done. That is as slanderous as anything, and perhaps, like a previous individual suggested I should consider legal action, but that is a decision that won't be made easily.

I, personally apologize to those who have read through this, and have had to read through sphere2's false accusations, and hope that there are actually a few people that see them as they are.

Anyways, the original offer has been (minorly) altered. For those looking for a professional system administrator, please, feel free to contact me.

Thanks again,
TjW

Originally posted by wolfstream
The thing that really kills is that I do offer quite a service, and am a Linux professional, yet there are countless that would read this thread and take the word of sphere2 that I am a scammer.

Actually, after his second post I could clearly see that he was way off base. I can see that he truly believed he got a raw deal...but I could also see the countless hosting customers I have that ask questions like "Why won't you install this ecommerce package on my hosting account for free??? I'm paying for hosting, aren't I?!?" :rolleyes: The fact that he copy/pasted your emails to him REALLY made it apparent that he was clearly misguided.

You didn't really damage your reputation *too much*, in my opinion. However, I think you did more to fuzzy it than Sphere did. ;)

--Tina

Originally posted by AffordableHost


Actually, after his second post I could clearly see that he was way off base. I can see that he truly believed he got a raw deal...but I could also see the countless hosting customers I have that ask questions like "Why won't you install this ecommerce package on my hosting account for free??? I'm paying for hosting, aren't I?!?" :rolleyes: The fact that he copy/pasted your emails to him REALLY made it apparent that he was clearly misguided.

You didn't really damage your reputation *too much*, in my opinion. However, I think you did more to fuzzy it than Sphere did. ;)

--Tina
**rofl**
Actually, there is a li'l validity to that (though not all logs were quoted. He WAS asked to just leave things be for a bit, over ICQ and didn't), and yeah, the "fuzzy" part has been cleared up quite so I'd say (I ran the new details by a couple of customers and they agree there).

The problem: I didn't scam anyone. I DID charge him quite a low rate for what he was getting, and he persisted in taking advantage of that, to the point of my complete frustration. Originally I said 1 hour a day I'd spend with 'im and help him out, which turned into literal hours daily.

Could this have been better defined? You bet, and it HAS. Could the user have shown a little bit more common sense and realized that he was asking entirely too much (even straying himself from the original agreement)? You bet.

The fault here isn't with any one party, both are to blame partially. The bad thing is that his response "You're a scammer" has cast a shadow on myself, and probably led to quite a bit of doubt. Thankfully, there are those out there that have come forth and made it clear that I'm not scamming anyone.

TJW

I got to the second page of this thread and immediately went to the last page to avoid any headaches which may have occured.

So I may have missed something.

Looks like someone bought the $2/month wolfstream plan, found out the world wasn't given to them and came here to try and rub some dirt around.

A personally note to wolfstream:
Raise those rates, they tend to act as a filter.

Why is it that so many seem to think that raising rates is the only answer? There is a better answer: use a little common sense. When warned, you don't push the matter.

Yes, the plans have been changed (a reasonable time limit has been put in, to prevent this from happening again).Have the prices gone up? Just barely, but that's only because I offer more packages and structures now.

The point? It's not pricing, it's common sense. When told to back off, you should listen. When told you can only put in a minimal time per server, you should listen (and I did state this).

The pricing is designed to be low, not extremely low, but affordable enough that individuals with a single host can afford services, an individual with only a handful of clients can afford services.

Having only read the first two pages of this thread (knowing what was to follow) I also jumped to the last page. From the what I did read, I would have to say:

sphere2
It was a big thing to admit that you "may" have been wrong. It was a touch of class and nice to see. There was some serious mis-communication between you, the person you hired, and the functions of the paid-for services. I could see right away that you were in over your head when you it "appeared" that you could not install PerlDesk -- I'm using that as an example since I've installed it a few times. Anyone who has basic knowledge of a Server / Script setup would also, find that script easy to install.

Someone hit the nail on the head when they posted a story (quite humourous I thought) of the boat mechanic charging more to have the Client help with the work. It is a situation most mechanics have to deal with on a regular basis and can task the patience of most. Can you image taking your car in for a tune-up and while watching the mechanic do the task, constantly pester them with questions?

No doubt this has been a good learning experience for you. Paying for lessons with money, can, in the long run, be cheaper than paying with our time or health.


wolfstream
I do not think your "reputation as a Tech" was damaged, and it was big of you also, to accept responsibility for some of the problem in this case. The job is never done till the paper work is finished -- as they say. In fact, I would consider hiring for your services, but would have to wonder what type of reports you provide and the level of service?

Surely it would be expected that reports would be provided? I do not see any mention of that though, at http://www.linux-tech.net/services.php ? Does your pricing include these type details and does your work meet some kind of standard? It's not uncommon to hire someone, to check the completed work of someone else. How would arbitration be handled? The Services Web page does not seem to be clearly written and basic grammar is very bad. Is this a reflection of the type of work provided? Where is the "Order Page, TOS, Guarentee", BTW? I have found, mis-communication and ambiguity are almost always, the "root" of an agreement gone bad. On one side or both, neither is good business.

I know one thing that bothers me with people who do scripting (this is in general mind you) is that they seem to be good in one area and lacking in others. Some coders seem to think if the Server files / coding is fine and works, who cares if the HTML, CSS, or JS code is sloppy or incorrect -- as long as it works, right? I could say, have a close look at PerlDesk and cPanel, but some might take it the wrong way. PerlDesk is free so one takes it as is and I've already had information provided to DarkOrb on some of their coding, so they can fix specific mistakes.

I've also dealt with various types of Support (as most of us do) that cannot seem to comprehend the question, if more than one area is covered. Even using "baby" English for some "Tech" support questions does not always seem to work. It is a waste of everyone's time when it takes 6 Emails to accomplish a resolution, when one or two would have sufficed.

These things I've pointed out, are based on the fact that I do accept your proficiency with Linux Administration and mention them, as I would to any potential Contractor I was considering in this area, and look forward to your reply.

Reports? Howso?

I don't 'log" everything I do, nor do I report on a day to day basis to my clients. Most of my clients go days without hearing from me, unless something has happened that needs their attention.

Most of the work of ANY skilled system admin is done in the background (you don't see it, unless it drastically affects you directly).

An example:
I just recently spent 6 hours on all client's hosts, securing their own servers even further, updating things. I don't report these things (usually).

I just upgraded all of my clients to a higher version of php, reconfiguring it to work better for their own servers, due to a complaint of one of their clients. I didn't report to each of them, but I DID report to the one that happened to need it done.

I go through and parse some 50+m of logs for clients on a daily basis, looking for security risks, problems, etc. Every half hour, these logs are parsed and the output sent to me via email, where I go through and scan them, ensuring the security and sanity of their systems. I've caught more than one attempted spammer this way, and blocked their access to the server. I've caught more than one problem this way and rerouted it.

In addition to all of this, I keep myself (and my clients) up to date with stuff such as ssl, misc rpm packages, security risks, etc.

As someone said, my time is better spent on the actual administration, not the individual reporting of it. I DO report what's needed, but what's not I don't. Most of my clients don't hear from me for days, but they know I'm hard at work on things, updating their systems,securing their systems. They also know that if they have any sort of crisis, they can reach me, and if they need anything, they can reach me via any sort of IM (and shortly, SMS).

Asked and answered. I won't take up anymore of your time.

I have to say I chocked this up to a learning experience and have found new administration, and they are amazing so far.

The bad experience lead me to what I actually wanted in a server admin. And right now I am really happy.

I get play by play reports of the work being done. When I ask questions, (which if you know me I do.) They give detailed answers, they are fully respectful, and it's a really cool business partnership to have. They are fast with response times, they provide full service with great affordability.

So far I have been really impressed and it's the difference that I was looking for. They do encourage you to be involved with your server, which is what I wanted.

And you really feel like you are a valued client. I spent most of yesterday getting the system re-reved up and working. They said I had a few security holes, my version of Cpanel had to be updated, Apache and a whole whack of other things which were not done, but you can tell that they are really putting the work and energy into it.

When you ask them a question they can give specific details about the work they are doing, and what still needs to be done, why and when.

It's what I really wanted in server administration. I have not had them very long, cause I really screened after my last experience, but so far it's great.

I really appriciated your post. You made some good points on all scores, and now it's back to another busy work day.

Isn't hosting fun?

Greetings:

"I paid wolfstream.com $85.00 for services. I got 5 days of work done then he quit. I asked for a refund then had my full $85.00 taken. And this is what I was told when I asked for a refund. "

1. Usually any professional will deduct their time spent working on a project from the money paid.

If you contracted We Manage Servers for doing work, gave us a deposit, we would deduct time we spent working from that deposit until the deposit was used up.

This is a common, legal, ethical business practice that obeys every single rule that exists.

2. At least in the U.S. most contractual arrangements do allow either party to cancel services under certain circumstances. If termination clauses don't exist, then usually the relationship is "at will" (either party can cancel).

3. With no disrespect intended for the person or persons behind, wolfstream.com, as a consumer you should realize that you often get what you pay for.

Typically, in the U.S., server administrators with awesome experience are paid at least $40,000 per year on up plus a complete line of benefits.

In general that translates to at least $50,000 per year including benefits which in turn translates to at least $24.04 per hour.

If some one is charging $15 per hour or less, live in the U.S.... they either don't know how to value themselves or don't have the experience they claim.

Furthermore, most individuals "in business" as server / system administrators typically charge $50 to $75 per hour in the U.S.

Companies in the industry typically charge $100 to $325 per hour.

If they charge significantly less, it falls into the same issues -- they either don't have the business knowledge on how to value their worth (which does impact business longevity and other important issues) OR they don't have the experience they claim OR have the experience they claim, but that experience is very substandard compared to the rest.

Thank you.

Originally posted by dynamicnet

If they charge significantly less, it falls into the same issues -- they either don't have the business knowledge on how to value their worth (which does impact business longevity and other important issues) OR they don't have the experience they claim OR have the experience they claim, but that experience is very substandard compared to the rest.

Actually, all of my clients will tell you that I know what I'm doing, that I'm every bit of what I claim.
I don't charge much, because I (seriously) believe that the most important thing is viewing logs, offering professional support, disaster recovery. This doesn't take me but (maybe) 3 hours a week per server. I actually know the need for affordable, professional administration, and believe that I do what I can to fulfill that (as my clients will testify to as well). I've taken servers from huge load to nothing in seconds (then there's times I can't figure out what's causing it (it happens)). I've solved many crises on a split second's notice, and more.

Personally, I charge so little (my new prices have been posted somewhere) because I love the work I do, and believe me, it shows. I'm not after a killing, I'm just after being able to live off of what I do, that's all. Price has nothing to do with my skills (maybe in some cases it does, but in this case, it doesn't).

Greetings Tom:

Two points:

A. Re-read the very fist statement of point 3 above:

"3. With no disrespect intended for the person or persons behind, wolfstream.com, as a consumer you should realize that you often get what you pay for."

B. "This doesn't take me but (maybe) 3 hours a week per server."

3 hours a week with 4.333333 weeks in an average month translate to 13 hours per month.

13 hours per month per server at $15 per hour (which is extremely low compared to industry standards -- at least $18,800 per year too low if W-2 pay let alone compared to a corporation in the industry) equals $195 per month (compared to $85 per month).

Maybe I don't understand how the math should work?

Thank you.

Maybe you don't, no.

Then again, my customers don't complain about my pricing, nor do I.
Again, they know that I'm happy doing what I do, and they know if something urgent comes up I'm 1 step away. That in and of itself says alot.

My pricing isn't really the issue here though. In fact, I've had people complain it's too high (usually people from this here board), but my pricing won't be changing any further. It has changed since this thread started and both myself AND my customers are happy with the outcome of this. THEY don't pay $50 an hour for a linux tech (even 15-20 an hour is outrageous. Who sets these prices? The linux tech themself. THEY claim they're worth it, but they forget about the little people, the ones that NEED their services but cant afford their outrageous prices), I make money doing what I love to do. It really is a win/win situation.

Most of my clients have custom billing solutions from me, one w/ 4 servers (obviously not @ 85 a month), but those are the base prices I go with. You won't find any more qualified, more affordable, system admin than myself, really.

I really don't see the need to attack my pricing (or anyone else's) in this forum here. Pricing is irrelevant, quality of service is not. Each and every one of my clients has and will again attest to the fact that I keep things going for them, and I do so affordably.

This thread is some month old already. While I appreciate the responses to it, it's closed, literally. There's no need to keep pointing out things YOU think are wrong with my service when you haven't tried my service. Nor, is there a need for attacking of my (or anyone else's) rates here, which is just what you've done (literally) with your previous post.. "You underrate yourself or you don't know what you're talking about" or "you get what you pay for". My clients get MORE than what they payfor, and I"m proud of that fact. MY experience isn't lacking here, MY worth isn't lacking here, NOR is my experience substandard. I simply don't want to charge a fortune for my work, like some others who would rip their customers off for a simple little bit of work. Yes, I charge reasonable rates, NO that doesn't mean I'm not good, it means that I offer reasonable rates.. ONLY that, nothing else.

By saying 'no offense' doesn't automatically make you right. In fact it means that you've forgotten the most important rule in things here.. Other people have feelings too. You attacked my pricing saying :
A> You dont know what you're doing
B> Your experience isn't what you claim
C> You don't know how to rate yourself pricewise

In fact, I DO just that, ALL of that.. You forgot the most important rule in the industry,marketing... If there's a need for it, they'll come.. there is DEFINITELY a need for affordable, experienced administration.

Again, my current clients=happy, my future clients will be MORE than happy, I'm sure, because they get someone knowledgeable lookin after their own servers, and they DON'T have to pay some outrageous price to do so.

Greetings:

"THEY don't pay $50 an hour for a linux tech (even 15-20 an hour is outrageous. Who sets these prices?"

The market place which is comprised of a given number of employees and a given number of employers.

It is a part of demand and supply economics. In a capatalistic society if you can present a value that some one is willing to pay, then you have established a marker.

If enough have established a marker, it becomes a standard or at least provides a range.

$50 per hour is not outrageous. $15 to $20 per hour when one is worth $50 per hour is insane <smile>.

"THEY claim they're worth it, but they forget about the little people, the ones that NEED their services but cant afford their outrageous prices)"

Businesses are not in business to be a charity. They are in business to make a fair profit.

It is great that you can make a living at charging what you charge.

A customer concerned with scalability of a company, company survival and growth will want to be with a company that has the ability to grow with their ever changing needs.

When you charge just enough for you, and what you charge is significantly below market standards, then you leave no room for the potential of employing experienced professionals to share with the growing work load.

You've created your own barrier to success because you did not have the hindsight to have charges that were within industry standards that would allow you to invest money back into the company in the forms of new technology, employees when needed, etc.

You can state you are a 'hero for the little guy," and I salute you. However, if that little guy grows (the dream of most businesses), then you may never be able to support their growth.

Maybe that's the plan, and you do well supporting only the little guys, and when they grow they move to the bigger companies.

And just maybe they are shocked because of the pricing dispariety, and are left dismayed instead of serviced.

Most people who want to succeed employ what is called, "The best of the best practices."

They look at what the best are doing, and take what will work for them. They throw away what will not.

Most of the successful companies in this arena charge what they charge for a very good reason.

They are not ripping off people. They do not charge "outrageous" prices. They offer a value for their customers.

Thank you.

$50-$100 an hour a VALUE? I doubt that very seriously. That's not a "value", that's hiway robbery. It's like calling up a pc-repair store and asking how much they charge. Some will say 50/hr some 60, some 20. Guaranteed the one charging 20 will get more business though, because they're affordable, and they market themselves as such. Anything more than $20 an hour is hiway robbery, period.

The point: There's no law saying I have to charge outrageous prices and rip customers off simply because I'm a skilled tech.

My clients vary in experience in the industry, some are startups, most however are quite established in the industry. Some have 3, 4 servers, some have only one (one actually with 500+ clients on one server, which works perfectly for him.). They don't plan on leaving when they get bigger. Why? They see the value of service they're getting, and they appreciate it. They know (again) they can get ahold of me if things get hectic, and they need someone to pull them out of a jam. They know someone's looking after their servers, and that someone isn't going to rip them off in the longrun.

Yes, I have a problem with people overcharging individuals, in a big big way. I've been the victim of this fraud too many times. I COULD charge some $50 an hour or so, but why? Why overrate my own services, other than simply to inflate my own ego? That is the ONLY reason.

Again, no thanks, my clients are happy, I'm happy. Yes, I'm always taking new clients, no this thread hasn't seen life in weeks, drop it already. In fact this doesn't even RELATE to this thread any more (not that any of Sphere2's whining did).

I offer affordable system administration because I BELIEVE in what I offer. Services that charge more can charge more all they want. I don't care. I don't attack them for their fraudulent pricing schemes, or overrating their own services, there's no reason THEY (or you) should attack me for my pricing, or for (so you say) underating mine. My services are value services. Those described by yourself are highway robbery, plain and simple.