This post is directed at all the Windows reseller hosts here at WHT. It's partially a rant, but mostly just an honest inquiry about why some aspects of Windows hosts are the way they are.
I am a Windows developer (classic Asp & Asp.Net). I develop custom web applications that I sell, and I also offer hosting to my clients, so obviously I require windows reseller webhosting.
Generally speaking, one of the most important aspects of hosting, from my clients' perspective, is webmail. Understandbly so, because email plays such a vital role in any online presence. Email is all grown up now, and users are accustomed to feature-rich, mature user interfaces for their webemail. Webmail front-ends that offer the look-and-feel of Exchange-type applications should be the norm. No offence intended to you die-hard fans, but Horde, DWmail & SquirrelMail just don't cut it by my standards. While horde has lots of features, the UI is horrible, and they just go downhill from there.
So with that said, the webmail offered by reseller hosts is a very important cosideration for me, and in general I was delighted to find that many Windows reseller hosts offer SmarterMail.
When I began searching for a reseller host I was looking exclusively at Windows reseller hosts. The webmail client was near the top of my list. But there are many other factors to consider, as you all well know. I'm a developer, and at least in part, my target market is other developers, so I need the maximum flexibility in what I can offer my clients.
Here is what I was looking for initially (I use the evil term "unlimited" to mean "as many as I need, within my allotted disk space and bandwidth"):
- A top-notch webmail client
- A reasonble number of user CP's for the cost of the account, with a reasonable upgrade path
- Classic Asp, Asp.Net (through the current framework version)
- Other dev tools if available (PHP, CFMX, ROR), just to offer variety
- Unlimted Access db's/DSN's, unlimited MS SQL databases (again, limited only by my allotted disk space), and unlimited MySql databases (if MySql was available)
- Unlimited domains
- Unlimited email addresses
- A decent, contemporary control panel for my clients
- A nice offering of open-source apps (Wordpress, DotNetNuke, etc)
- A useful stats program
- The ability to oversell (so I could at least appear to be competitive)
- Finally, end-user tech support would be the icing on the cake
I was disappointed with the offerings I found with the strictly-Windows hosts. While all of them had many of the features I wanted, I couldn't find a single host who offered everything I wanted. And price wasn't the issue, I was ready to pay what I needed to in order to get what I wanted. I was very close to signing up with Mosso, at $100 a month.
The real irony is that I ended up going with an H-Sphere host, who is very obviously linux-centric, because they offered everything I wanted except for 2 items. 1, They didn't have a decent webmail client (yes, I'm stuck with the Horde, Dwmail, SQWebmail choices). And 2, and this is strictly my opinion, but I think the H-Sphere cp is a huge pile, but that's a discussion for another thread. But they do include end-user ticket-based support with the account, so that was a very nice trade-off.
So what I'd like to hear from the Windows reseller hosts is this:
If a linux-leaning host running h-sphere can offer almost everything a Windows developer needs and wants, why are there so many limitations on your hosting offers? I mean, you're the Windows speciailists in the reseller hosting world, you should be able to do it better than anyone else.
Keep in that not all of the questions below apply to all of the Windows reseller hosts. But many of them apply to most of the hosts I reviewed when I was searching. Also keep in mind, I'm not asking anyone to defend themselves, and nobody is on trial here, I would just honestly like to understand why some of these things are setup the way they are.
So here are the specifics I'd like to know about:
1. Why have a limit on the number of email accounts that can be created in the reseller account?
2. Why have a limit on the number of domain names a reseller account can contain?
3. Why a limit on DSN's (not that i use them anymore)?
4. Why have a limit on the number of MSSQL databases on the account? Why not just limit by total available disk space?
5. For those that don't offer it, why not allow sensible overselling?
6. As a Windows host, why on Earth would you NOT offer SmarterMail? (I found a Windows host I thought was great, but when I went through their list of features, I got to webmail and found the dreaded HDS (Horde, DWMail, SQWebmail).
Out of these, probably the most irksome to me is MS Sql Server. Those of us seeking out Windows hosts are usually doing so for a couple reasons; we're Windows developers who need Asp/.Net, and/or we're looking for MS Sql server databases. The hosts that were most quickly dismissed from my list were those that were still charging an extra fee for MS Sql Server as an add-on option. Again, we're seeking you out specifically because you are a Windows reseller host, so we do understand that you have to pay for licensing of your Microsoft products, and that's why we're more than happy to pay a higher price for your service, so it seems unreasonable that you would charge extra for one of the things we're considering you for. Especially when you offer unlimited domains, but want to charge $9.99 to add a single 100mb MS Sql Server database to the account. That's about as useful as a screen door on a submarine.
Looking forward to the feedback on this post.
S.

Hi,
I have made some comments below, and highlighted some of your comments.
If a linux-leaning host running h-sphere can offer almost everything a Windows developer needs and wants, why are there so many limitations on your hosting offers? I mean, you're the Windows speciailists in the reseller hosting world, you should be able to do it better than anyone else.
On linux you can not have asp.net versions such as 2/3.5 nor MS SQL 2005.
1. Why have a limit on the number of email accounts that can be created in the reseller account?
Anyone can offer unlimited this and unlimited that, however unlimited usually has a limit, as windows is expensive its usually offered by professional companies who know that its just silly to offer unlimited.
2. Why have a limit on the number of domain names a reseller account can contain?
Again, this can be done on either linux or windows, you may of just found it more on the hosts you looked at.
4. Why have a limit on the number of MSSQL databases on the account? Why not just limit by total available disk space?
MS SQL Is very expensive, so offering unlimited would be just stupid, ie our typical server for SQL is Dual processor, and MS charge per CPU, so if one reseller is paying say $40 month and they have 50 SQL DBs, the system resource will be high for that reseller, and likely will cause a over loaded server. By limiting SQL, its not over sold and usually the SQL server performance will be better.
5. For those that don't offer it, why not allow sensible overselling?
This depends on the control panel if its supported, I know Helm supports overselling by default.
6. As a Windows host, why on Earth would you NOT offer SmarterMail? (I found a Windows host I thought was great, but when I went through their list of features, I got to webmail and found the dreaded HDS (Horde, DWMail, SQWebmail).
I agree. Smartermail is the best mail server, we have several Smartermail Enterprise servers (the full works version) and its excellent, we wouldnt replace it for any other mail server.

CyberHostPro,
Thank you for taking the time to read this lonnnng post and replying to it. I think it really will be helpful to hear it about these issues right from the hosts themselves.
Hi,
If a linux-leaning host running h-sphere can offer almost everything a Windows developer needs and wants, why are there so many limitations on your hosting offers?
On linux you can not have asp.net versions such as 2/3.5 nor MS SQL 2005.
You sort of missed my point. I was saying that my host, who uses H-sphere that lets you resell Linux or Windows from the same account, shows a preference for Linux, yet they offer just about everything I want from a Windows host.
1. Why have a limit on the number of email accounts that can be created in the reseller account?
Anyone can offer unlimited this and unlimited that, however unlimited usually has a limit, as windows is expensive its usually offered by professional companies who know that its just silly to offer unlimited.
Ok, but SmarterMail enterprise provides for unlimited email accounts. Its no bigger burden on you as the host to tell your clients "you can have as many email addresses as you want". We all know that the majority of shared hosting clients are only going to create a handful of email addresses anyway, so why not just remove the limitation, and spare your reseller customer the hassle of having to try to divide a set number of email addresses among an unknown number of future customers?
2. Why have a limit on the number of domain names a reseller account can contain?
Again, this can be done on either linux or windows, you may of just found it more on the hosts you looked at.
Yes, and again it's no more burden on you as the host if I have 10 domain names, or 1,000. As long as my overall account is using my storage and bandwidth as a pooled resource among all my domains, and my customer's domains, then there is a built-in physical limit. So why not remove the limit on the number of domain names?
4. Why have a limit on the number of MSSQL databases on the account? Why not just limit by total available disk space?
MS SQL Is very expensive, so offering unlimited would be just stupid, ie our typical server for SQL is Dual processor, and MS charge per CPU, so if one reseller is paying say $40 month and they have 50 SQL DBs, the system resource will be high for that reseller, and likely will cause a over loaded server. By limiting SQL, its not over sold and usually the SQL server performance will be better.
But don't you see the point I was making here? I you offer me a reseller account that lets me sell 50 user cp's, and you only allow me 5 MS Sql databases, then what use is MS Sql to me as a resource? You pay for your sql server licenses by cpu, not by how many database are created. Whether I have 50 clients who each create 2 databases, or I create 1 big database that everyone shares, relatively the performance problems are going to end up the same. At work I build web-apps that are shared by hundreds of simultaneous users, and even on busy days they hardly put a ding in the sql server. Plus we're talking about shared hosting accounts here, for developers who build small systems. Anyone in their right mind who was going to build a huge enterprise system would have a dedicated server anyway, right?
At the very least, hosts who offer ms sql server as a re-sellable resource to their end customers should provide at least 1 sql database per each of my customers. Otherwise what's the point?
Thanks again, I really appreciate you taking the time to contribute to this thread.
S.

But don't you see the point I was making here? I you offer me a reseller account that lets me sell 50 user cp's, and you only allow me 5 MS Sql databases, then what use is MS Sql to me as a resource? You pay for your sql server licenses by cpu, not by how many database are created. Whether I have 50 clients who each create 2 databases, or I create 1 big database that everyone shares, relatively the performance problems are going to end up the same.
1. Not all users need mssql database.
2. Reseller package available has a certain amount of dbs or emails included to minimize start up cost for resellers.
If you want 50 users, 100 sql dbs, just ask for custom package and you will receive quote for the package that each of your user has 2sql dbs ;)
3. The license is per cpu but do you know that the fee per cpu is a lot more than the package with 5 dbs included.
If unlimited dbs are included, how many customers must be packed on the server to make profit?

1. Not all users need mssql database.
Yes, that's true, but suppose you provide me with 5 mssql db's, and then I have a 6th customer who needs one? At that point it's not a useful resource that I can offer to my customers. Whereas if every client could have even just 1, and all my combined db's are limited by my disk space, then it's something I can use. Then when I was reaching capacity on my storage usage, I could upgrade the account.
2. Reseller package available has a certain amount of dbs or emails included to minimize start up cost for resellers.
If you want 50 users, 100 sql dbs, just ask for custom package and you will receive quote for the package that each of your user has 2sql dbs ;)
3. The license is per cpu but do you know that the fee per cpu is a lot more than the package with 5 dbs included.
If unlimited dbs are included, how many customers must be packed on the server to make profit?
This is the kind of information I'm looking for. I don't know these things because I'm not a reseller host. I'm just an end-customer who doesn't understand why things are setup the way they are from host to host.
I'm just looking at things from my current host's perspective. I get 5gb of space, 50gb bw and 20 user cp's. Within that I can have as many dsns, mysql, ms sql databases I want, and I let my clients have all they want, they're limited only by their alloted space. I think this is a great way to sell hosting, so I wanted to try to understand why the Windows reseller hosts aren't setup like this.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Why not get a dedicated server or a cluster (one dedicated to database) and you can offer others what you are requesting?

Why not get a dedicated server or a cluster (one dedicated to database) and you can offer others what you are requesting?
Sure that's definitely an option at some point. But keep in mind, I'm only trying to understand how it works from reseller host to host. I'm not bashing these guys, I know they work hard and try to provide the best product they can for the best price.
I think I'm making very valid points about merchantability of different hosting options, especially with regards to mssql database offerings. I'm just trying to understand how it all works, that's all.

There are reasons for limitations prudent hosting companies put on resources such as domains, databases, email accts etc. How you use your resources does matter. If I had 25gb of disk space for instance...do you think I could use the 25gb in a database(s) and make huge amounts of calls to it/them from another domain(s) on another account as long as I stayed within my bandwidth limitations?
How about unlimited email accounts and I go into business selling email accounts for 1 cent a year to others? As long as I do not go over bandwidth/disk usage..wouldn't matter if I had 30 million email accounts?
It actually "all" matters and that is why hosting companies who provide any "value" have limitations and pay attention to resources.

There are reasons for limitations prudent hosting companies put on resources such as domains, databases, email accts etc. How you use your resources does matter. If I had 25gb of disk space for instance...do you think I could use the 25gb in a database(s) and make huge amounts of calls to it/them from another domain(s) on another account as long as I stayed within my bandwidth limitations?
Yes, I understand what you are saying, I know there are sensible reasons for limitations. But in your example, what would be wrong with me using my 25gb in databases, and utilizing them as long as I'm within my bandwidth? I haven't seen a host out there that doesn't have a clause in their aup or tos that states that no account is allowed to overload a server. At that point my host would notify me, and we'd work out a solution for me to either move to vps or dedicated, or find a new host.
How about unlimited email accounts and I go into business selling email accounts for 1 cent a year to others? As long as I do not go over bandwidth/disk usage..wouldn't matter if I had 30 million email accounts? So again my question is, if it's strictly for use with my domain names, and there are repercussions to abusing the rules, why have the limitation at all?
Well, here again, I think that most hosts have that covered by specifically stating that their clients cannot resell their service as an email hosting company. I know my host specifically forbids it. I also know that if I did it, my days would be numbered with my host.
It actually "all" matters and that is why hosting companies who provide any "value" have limitations and pay attention to resources.
Yes it does matter, all I'm getting at is that I think the Windows hosts could be far less restrictive on their clients, and still maintain complete control over their systems.
I keep coming back to my current host, who lets me have whatever I want withing the constraints of my storage space and bandwidth, and of course the terms of aup which says that I cannot abuse the servers by over-working them.
I've avoided naming my host up to this point because I wanted this to remain a generalized conversation, not comparing named hosts against each other. But at this point I'll just say I'm with Eirca.net. They are a reputable, respected host. In the 9 months I've been with them, I've had only minor problems, and their dedication to customer satisfaction and support is impressive. They continue to grow and add features and services to their offerings.
They provide this "open-ended" kind of features to their clients, and there doesn't seem to be any problem for them.
Also, in the replies nobody has specifically answered my question: If I can't offer each of my customers at least 1 mssql database, then what use is there in me even offering it as a feature? I'm certainly not going to charge my developer clients an extra fee to use what is the standard database for their chosen development platform. In my opinion that would be the same as a Linux host charging extra for MySql.
And before you say it, yes... I know MySql is free, and MS Sql is expensive, but there again is why you charge more for your Windows hosting than Linux, and it's why those of us seeking Windows hosting are happy to pay more for the service.

Right, but I'm simply replying to why hosts have limitations on domains, emails, etcetera as in your OP.
Answer: because there isn't any such thing as "unlimited". All resources are finite. Say for unlimited domains, what if I simply had 400,000 domains with a 4kb .htaccess file (linux) containing redirect 301/ http://www.mydomain.com/ and redirected 400K domains to one. This certainly would not go over most disk usage of say 2GB to round it off, but would have huge consequences.
I am aware I am using extreme examples, but once you use the term "unlimited"...you open a can of worms. I for one have had reseller accts and dedicated, but I have never..not once made the price my priority. I know what things cost to a certain degree and I "hope" my hosting company is making money (otherwise they won't be around long). I look more at value, then price. How many accts do they need to stick on a server to make money? What kind of service can they provide for what they are charging?
Also, in the replies nobody has specifically answered my question: If I can't offer each of my customers at least 1 mssql database, then what use is there in me even offering it as a feature?
I agree and you should be able to have at least one/two databases per account...actually this shouldn't be an issue at all. I cannot find what each reseller acct allows on their website. I may not be digging deep enough...

Right, but I'm simply replying to why hosts have limitations on domains, emails, etcetera as in your OP.
Answer: because there isn't any such thing as "unlimited". All resources are finite. Say for unlimited domains, what if I simply had 400,000 domains with a 4kb .htaccess file (linux) containing redirect 301/ http://www.mydomain.com/ and redirected 400K domains to one. This certainly would not go over most disk usage of say 2GB to round it off, but would have huge consequences.
You're right. I shouldn't have used the term "unlimited". "Unmetered" would have been more appropriate, but what I actually mean is "give me more than I'll normally ever use as a reseller, so I don't have to impose small limits on my customers".
And yes, you used an extreme example (althought you're talking in Linux terms and this was addressed specifically to the Windows hosts), but in that example, wouldn't your abuse clause in your aup cover the situation?
If you have to limit the number of domain names, why not pick a number that you doubt any reseller would ever reach, like 1,000? It's not unlimited, and it's not unmetered, and it's something no reseller is likely to ever reach before they would move to a dedicated machine. So from my perspective as a reseller, it "appears" unlimited, and you get to retain tight control over things.
The same method of handling things could be applied to just about any resource, even mssql databases.
That seems to make perfect sense to me, but if I'm missing something fundamental here, don't hesitate to point it out. You're the expert, I'm just the guy with a lot of questions :)

1,000 domains is a LOT of domains to host and yes...it makes a big difference. Those with more technical knowledge on this will be able to give more advice on this. Who are you trying to compete with as a reseller?

1,000 domains is a LOT of domains to host and yes...it makes a big difference. Those with more technical knowledge on this will be able to give more advice on this. Who are you trying to compete with as a reseller?
I understand. I'm know we're not digging into technical details here. I'm not trying to compete with anyone. Mine is a niche market, essentially just focused on my own clients. I don't think I'd have the stamina to try to jump into the general hosting market and try to compete with everyone else out there.
I really do appreciate you getting involved. I'm learning from this thread.

Well I see you are using H-Sphere, which happens to be my favorite CP platform. I can only say there are other very reputable H-Sphere hosts out there if you are unhappy with your database quota that do not pose these restrictions on databases. Simply search these forums for H-Sphere hosts or check out JodoHost and Cartika to name a couple.

Well I see you are using H-Sphere, which happens to be my favorite CP platform. I can only say there are other very reputable H-Sphere hosts out there if you are unhappy with your database quota that do not pose these restrictions on databases. Simply search these forums for H-Sphere hosts or check out JodoHost and Cartika to name a couple.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I wasn't complaining about my host, actually just the opposite. The thing that prompted this post in the first place was my wondering why the Windows-only hosts didn't have similar offerings to my current host.
I'm happy with Eirca, and when I do get frustrated and want to look for a Windows host it always brings me back to appreciating just what they provide for the money. So far I haven't found a better offer than theirs, among the reputable hosts that you can trust.

Hello Snargleflap,
interesting questions. Honestly, if you want everything to be a specific way, you should probably get your own dedicated server(s). I always smile when customers want providers to meet their specific requirements while still maintaining shared budgets..
End of the day, items in shared hosting need to be limited. Each provider will handle this differently and in different ways, but, you cannot let shared users run rampant in environments - if you do, quality and service levels will suffer - there are no exceptions to this...
1. Why have a limit on the number of email accounts that can be created in the reseller account?
because if it is not limited, it will be abused by one or more customers
2. Why have a limit on the number of domain names a reseller account can contain?
because if it is not limited, it will be abused by one or more customers
additionally, it is very very important to limit number of domains per given area in shared hosting
3. Why a limit on DSN's (not that i use them anymore)?
I am not certain as this isnt something we choose to limit - but, the general theory probably applies - you need to limit something someplace - this may be one area a provider decided to limit
4. Why have a limit on the number of MSSQL databases on the account? Why not just limit by total available disk space?
we allow disk space to be the limiting factor with mssql, but, see above for possible explanation of why # of db's may be limited. essentially, if a provider is allowing for unlimited domains, then they are trying to limit the usage of dynamic sites by limiting databases. others are offering limits on domains and not limiting mssql instances - end of the day, the result is the same..
5. For those that don't offer it, why not allow sensible overselling?
who determines whats sensible?
6. As a Windows host, why on Earth would you NOT offer SmarterMail? (I found a Windows host I thought was great, but when I went through their list of features, I got to webmail and found the dreaded HDS (Horde, DWMail, SQWebmail).
because a host would be crazy to run mail service on windows. even hosts offering windows hosting services - a great many of them will not run actual mail service on a windows server. every hsphere host for example would run mail service on linux or BSD servers (just makes sense) -
Honestly, if webmail is that big of a concern, maybe you should be looking at exchange solutions for your clients. Running large shared mail servers on Windows servers is scary. Windows does A LOT of things very very well - acting as a very large, shared mail server, is not one of the things Windows does well and is why MANY windows providers will have Linux or BSD servers running their mail servers (even though Windows is running their web and DB services)..
Based on your comments, you really should be looking at a dedicated server. It is difficult to be upset that shared hosting is not meeting your specific requirements - for example, running Microsoft mail services with whatever webmail client you like may make better sense for a smaller install base. In your specific case, maybe you can load up 1000s of domains onto your server because you know that they will all be very low usage sites, etc, etc, etc..

Andrew, this was a very good reply, and I appreciate you posting, but you have a couple of things wrong that I need to comment on up front...
Hello Snargleflap,
interesting questions. Honestly, if you want everything to be a specific way, you should probably get your own dedicated server(s). I always smile when customers want providers to meet their specific requirements while still maintaining shared budgets..
First, if you read my posts, it's very clear that this wasn't the attitude I was taking. It was just the opposite, after comparing many Windows-only hosts to my current host, Eirca, I was specifically asking why the Windows-only hosts don't provide the same offerings as Eirca, who is not a Windows-only host.
It's important to me that you, and everyone else reading this thread, understand that I am not bashing any host, or belittling them for their offerings. I merely wanted to understand why I couldn't get the same things from a "Windows specialist" that I do from Eirca.
End of the day, items in shared hosting need to be limited. Each provider will handle this differently and in different ways, but, you cannot let shared users run rampant in environments - if you do, quality and service levels will suffer - there are no exceptions to this...
You are absolutely right, and I agree 100%, but the fact remains that Eirca can offer these things in this way, without users running rampant on their system. They probably have more problems that those hosts who have tighter controls, that would only make sense based on what you're saying, but they don't seem to have anyone out of control.
who determines whats sensible?
Ok, "sensible" is relative, but I think generally speaking anyone with experience can look at a host that offers 500gb of space and 10tb of bandwidth for $3.99 a month and come to the conclusion that this is not "sensible overselling", don't you agree? On the other hand, if I, as a reseller, have 5gb of space and 50gb of bandwith, and I have 20 user cp's, if I offer them each 1 gb of space, and 5 gb of bandwidth, I'm overselling, but it's sensible, in my opinion. I can manage that, and I can work with my host to upgrade quickly if it looks like I'm getting close to my limit.
Honestly, if webmail is that big of a concern, maybe you should be looking at exchange solutions for your clients.
I guess I portrayed my feelings about the mail server incorrectly. I honestly don't care what the back-end OS is that's serving up the email, it's the user interface to the mail server that I'm beefing about. You're an experienced host, do you honestly think that horde, sqlwebmail or dwmail are in the same league as Exchange on the web, or Smartermail, strictly from a webmail client perspective? It's not unreasonable to expect more sophisticated features, and a really nice user interface from webmail clients today. What I have available to me now is as bad as the Imail client I had 10 years ago. I really don't care if it's windows mail server, or a linux, or even a mac. All I want is something better for my end users.
Based on your comments, you really should be looking at a dedicated server. It is difficult to be upset that shared hosting is not meeting your specific requirements
I wish you had read my post more closely, or perhaps I did come across wrong. I'm not upset with anyone. I am very happy with my host. I'll say again, the whole point of my post in the first place was because I wondered why the Windows-only people couldn't offer me what Eirca does.
No, I did not get everything exactly the way I wanted it. The free linux webmail clients are horrid, I don't like hsphere as compared to something like dontnetpanel, so I had to make some adjustments. All-in-all, Eirca had 95% of what I was looking for, which is pretty darn good. And my account even includes end-user support, all at an unbelieivable price.

It's important to me that you, and everyone else reading this thread, understand that I am not bashing any host, or belittling them for their offerings. I merely wanted to understand why I couldn't get the same things from a "Windows specialist" that I do from Eirca.
I am certain there are many hosts offering unlimited domains as well as the various other features you have indicated are important to you. I also wouldnt refer to Eirca as anything but "Windows Specialists". Just because a host offers multiple platforms, it does not mean they cannot specialize in both. Its just a matter of having staff that are specialized in each respective platform.
I guess I portrayed my feelings about the mail server incorrectly. I honestly don't care what the back-end OS is that's serving up the email, it's the user interface to the mail server that I'm beefing about. You're an experienced host, do you honestly think that horde, sqlwebmail or dwmail are in the same league as Exchange on the web, or Smartermail, strictly from a webmail client perspective?
I think DWMail or even Roundcube are fine webmail interfaces. The issue comes in ones expectations of what webmail is supposed to do. Obviously Exchange is a much higher end webmail client - but, it comes at a pretty steep price. So, as long as you are willing to pay for it, then sure, it makes sense. But, it seems to me you are looking for exchange type of functionality without the costs. Now, please do not take this the wrong way, I certainly cannot blame you for wanting more for less - I am just trying to be the voice of reason here. Exchange carries quite a pricey per user fee. Smartermail for example, only runs on Windows if I am not mistaken - so, again, not really scalable or applicable to large shared hosting systems. If this is a sticking point for you, then I can propose a few solutions:
1) Get your own server and run mail service on Windows and use the smartermail client
2) Get exchange licenses for your users that demand higher end web mail
3) go with a smaller, more boutique provider that is running actual mail service on windows servers and has something like smartermail running
4) get a VPS or something similar and setup and run a zimbra install for your clients
There may be some other options, but, thats what Im coming up with off the top of my head :)
It's not unreasonable to expect more sophisticated features, and a really nice user interface from webmail clients today. What I have available to me now is as bad as the Imail client I had 10 years ago. I really don't care if it's windows mail server, or a linux, or even a mac. All I want is something better for my end users.
Unfortunately, it actually matters what you are running. This still comes back to budget for me. If these things are critical to you, then pick up the costs of exchange licensing or pick up the costs of a dedicated server so that you can run your mail service on a windows server and you can run the webmail client you like. As I said above, very few large scale hosts will run mail service on actual Windows servers - which really limits the types of mail clients once can run (again, as far as I know, smartermail for example will not run on Linux servers)
I wish you had read my post more closely, or perhaps I did come across wrong. I'm not upset with anyone.
no no - I apologize if I am coming off wrong - we are just having a very friendly discussion on a few points.. hopefully nothing I am saying is offending or upsetting you - I am just sharing my opinions (and I am sure many will disagree with much of what I have to say - and thats fine too :) )
I don't like hsphere as compared to something like dontnetpanel
We have looked at dotnetpanel extensively - and may end up launching some windows offerings with DNP - but boy - it has absolutely nothing on h-sphere from a hosting providers perspective. It obviously handles newer Windows tech - but, functionality wise, from a control panel - it is as limiting of a control panel as I have ever seen. Apparently they have some upgrades coming to their ecommerce modules and to their basic logic of how things work - but, as it is today - running a business on DNP (as an upstream or as a reseller) would be a purely manual undertaking - completely illogical with minimal to zero automation - still though - a very promising Windows CP on the whole...

I had the same question for my hoster (reliablesite.net (http://www.reliablesite.net)) when I was first looking. In the end if you notice, there's a lot less complaints of Windows hosts having poor performance than Linux. The Windows hosting market doesn't seem to be all that saturated, and MS developers appear to be willing to pay a bit more for the quality provided.
That's a good point. Could be the reason for the limitations, like the hosts who have replied so far have inidicated. The more control you maintain, the less potential for problems, I guess.

I am certain there are many hosts offering unlimited domains as well as the various other features you have indicated are important to you. I also wouldnt refer to Eirca as anything but "Windows Specialists". Just because a host offers multiple platforms, it does not mean they cannot specialize in both. Its just a matter of having staff that are specialized in each respective platform.
I'm sure Eirca is a "specialist" in all they do. I have a lot of respect for the multi-platform hosts, like Eirca and Cartika, because you guys have to know it all, so to speak. I refer to Eirca as "linux-leaning" because you can see it everywhere you look (php, etc). I didn't mean to imply they aren't speciailists in Windows as well. Like I said early on, it's ironic because I wanted a Windows host and ended up going with someone who wasn't "just" windows because they had the best offering to meet my needs.
I think DWMail or even Roundcube are fine webmail interfaces. The issue comes in ones expectations of what webmail is supposed to do. Obviously Exchange is a much higher end webmail client - but, it comes at a pretty steep price. So, as long as you are willing to pay for it, then sure, it makes sense. But, it seems to me you are looking for exchange type of functionality without the costs.
You're right Andrew, I probably shouldn't have tossed Exchange into the mix, because it's a whole different situation. Yes, I could setup all my clients on hosted Exchange, but then I'd have to get a second job to pay for it :)
As far as Dwmail, from what I have seen I doesn't compare to something like Smartermail. It's a better interface than horde or sq, but Dwmail still has a very immature user interface, and if I'm not mistaken, horde has more features. I haven't seen RoundCube yet, but I've heard pretty good things about it.
But you're right, I am looking for more from email than what's currently available. I can't afford to get hosted exchange for my customers, nor can I afford to get my own dedicated server to host my customers email, but I would pay more to have a quality webmail client for my customers. If Eirca offered something equivalent to Smartermail but said it's going to cost $5 more per month, I'd jump on that.
Now, please do not take this the wrong way, I certainly cannot blame you for wanting more for less - I am just trying to be the voice of reason here.
I'm not taking any of this in a negative light. I'm very grateful you're taking the time to explain it. It is helping me to understand more about the industry.
I guess with respect to the email, it's just frustrating. You guys give us the ability to provide so much to our clients. I mean, I can let my customers have windows, linux, .net, php, access, mssql mysql, and so much more, it's amazing. Then I have to say "oh yeah, and here's horde.". You must have felt the same way at some point, to be able to offer so much to your customers, then have to settle on the lesser email clients. But I am starting to understand about the cost associated with it.
no no - I apologize if I am coming off wrong - we are just having a very friendly discussion on a few points.. hopefully nothing I am saying is offending or upsetting you - I am just sharing my opinions (and I am sure many will disagree with much of what I have to say - and thats fine too :) )
Well, they're welcome to chime in. That was sort of the point of this post, to let the hosts jump in and help us understand.
We have looked at dotnetpanel extensively - and may end up launching some windows offerings with DNP
With regards to hsphere, I probably should have been more specific. When I first signed up with Eirca, I have to say I was very impressed with the cp. I mean it can do a lot of stuff. Where it started to leave a bad taste in my mouth was when I wanted to customize the sign-up process for my clients. I mean, you're stuck with that process. It's cumbersome and confusing, and you can't change it.
I guess when it's all said and done, I'm most picky about the things that are presented to my customers (webmail interface, sing up process, etc). I've been a programmer for 24 years, I'm accustomed to being in complete control of user interfaces, and in the hosting world, I'm finding there's times when you just have to accept things as they are and move on.

I guess when it's all said and done, I'm most picky about the things that are presented to my customers (webmail interface, sing up process, etc). I've been a programmer for 24 years, I'm accustomed to being in complete control of user interfaces, and in the hosting world, I'm finding there's times when you just have to accept things as they are and move on.
Hi Snargleflap,
I think everyone is trying to improve their offerings, their interfaces, etc as they go along. Also, sometimes when providing reseller solutions - more generic offerings is actually better. Obviously everyone has specific requirements - but, from what I have noticed, the more generic and "white label" we are - with everything we offer - the happier the customer base is on the whole.. Having said this, if there was a way we could offer an even better webmail client, we certainly would. I remember a few years ago when DWMail came out - it was a HUGE upgrade to horde or whatever, and we jumped all over it and made it available. Now, more recently, Roundcube has released a very nice looking, ajax based webmail client, and again, we adopted it. Hopefully in the future, there is something like smartermail that will run on Linux, and I imagine you will see more providers jump on that as well.
I do understand your desire for more control. I guess ultimately, there is always a trade off. At what point is that control worth a dedicated environment to you. Based on what you are saying, you are probably getting closer to that point :) when the time is right, you will know and you will likely move in that direction at that time...
Thanks for the wonderful conversation - I personally learned a lot about client perceptions and expectations here - quite insightful - thanks !!!

Hi Snargleflap,Having said this, if there was a way we could offer an even better webmail client, we certainly would. I remember a few years ago when DWMail came out - it was a HUGE upgrade to horde or whatever, and we jumped all over it and made it available. Now, more recently, Roundcube has released a very nice looking, ajax based webmail client, and again, we adopted it. Hopefully in the future, there is something like smartermail that will run on Linux, and I imagine you will see more providers jump on that as well.
This was pretty enlightening. Yes, from horde to dwmail is a lightyear jump. I took a look at RoundCube's site and it looks really good. I didn't dig too deep, but if it has the ability to handle black/white listing on the server, and give the user the ability to review/manage messages caught by the spam filters, it would be everything I'm looking for.
I do understand your desire for more control. I guess ultimately, there is always a trade off. At what point is that control worth a dedicated environment to you. Based on what you are saying, you are probably getting closer to that point :) when the time is right, you will know and you will likely move in that direction at that time...
I'm probably far more picky than the average hosting client, but it's only because of my background. I look at applications and say "why on earth didn't the programmer just do it like this?".
You are probably right about the move to dedicated, at some point. Right now my hosting is little more than a hobby really. I have a handful of paying clients, but most I host for free (a number of churches). When I manage to focus on making it an actual business that will support the cost of my own server, I'm sure that's where I'll end up.
Thanks for the wonderful conversation - I personally learned a lot about client perceptions and expectations here - quite insightful - thanks !!!
Thank you too, it's been very educational :)