I am sure everyone here by now has had many spammers on their servers and like most of the responsible webhosts worldwide you have deleted their accounts as soon as you find out.

Also I am sure that most of you have been listed by a stupid organization called SPEWS which is doing more harm than good.

SPEWS claims that it is helping stop spam but instead it is just helping to hurt the reputation of Honest Web Hosts with their clients.

What it does is that once it detects that you have a spammer on your server or even a site that is itself not sending spam but promotes spam SPEWS immediately lists the IP address of your server or sometimes your whole IP range in its database which many ISPs use to filter spam e-mails. Now any e-mail originating from those IPs will be blocked by ISPs using the SPEWS databse.

The main problem is that even after we delete the spammers from our servers SPEWS does not remove our IPs. ANd for those of us who do name-based hosting this is very very dangerous as just becuase of one spammer whoi was on our server for not more than a few days the other 500 Honest, Innocent clients who are not spammers have to pay the price as their e-mails are blocked too.
This proves that just to prevent one spammer who by the way quickly changes hosts and is not affected at all, hundreds of our clients have to pay the price.

I have tried to contact SPEWS without any luck so I have decided to beat the SPEWS system instead of trying to change it.

I am SICK of SPEWS and other databases like this becuase instead of helping us they are hurting us.


-=-=-=-=-= IMPORTANT =-=-=-=-=-
Those who have not read this full post should not think that I am a pro-spam activists. Infact I hate spam and do everything possible to keep my network spam free but there is no 100% gurantee that one of them won't slip by my defences. Infact my screening method is so tough that many genuine clients leave me for being too tough on them. I do not mind that as that is my duty.

Also this thread in not for a pro-spam vs anti-spam war, this is only for strong anti-spam supporters and the topic of the discussion is wether our anti-spam techniques (SPEWS.org) have paid off or not.

Oh goody! Another SPEWS thread. Let the wars begin! :D

There are a couple of die-hard SPEWS supporters on this forum. I am a die-hard anti-SPEWS supporter on this forum. We've got one or two (last I checked) IPs listed on SPEWS. It has affected all of about 2 of our customers, and they told me they dealt with it themselves (talked to their ISPs/providers?). Anyone who uses SPEWS needs to be properly educated about how SPEWS works, otherwise they wouldn't be using them.

Oh, and as far as I know, the only way to get yourself off of the SPEWS list is to post to a public newsgroup asking them to do so. Not only is it a public forum where you'll get raped with obnoxious pro-spammer comments, but it's not even guaranteed you'll get delisted. I refuse to post to any newsgroup regarding delisting, which is why our IP addresses are and will remain listed. We handle all of the other lists accordingly (spamcop is the best one out there at handling this stuff, IMO -- they're fast and there is a warm body to communicate to, at least in my experience).

I'm sure I'll get flamed by a couple of you, so I've got my suit on.

i'm ready to take anything and everything those pro-spammers have to throw at me and I too do not want to list my ips in a public forum which is why i am researching other ways of getting rid of the SPEWS problem myself such as changing my IP addresses.

Also everyone should remember that this thread is not intended and neither should it be used for a pro-spam and anti-spam war.

This thread is only for anti-spam people like myself and this thread is only to discuss the effectiveness of SPEWS or even the damages caysed by SPEWS.

Also again i would like to say that I am not anti-spam and I like the idea of having a gloabl and extensive database of spammers to protect from spamming but SPEWS is not living up to that objective instead SPEWS is more of a database of web hosts who were victims on spammers and instead turn into victims of SPEWS.

Hey, now is'nt that great, I just got an idea on how to get around the SPEWS problem. But this only works for Win2k HostingController based servers. They have the option of running the mailservers on another machine so that the Ips of the mailservers are different this way their mails can't be blocked by SPEWS.

WOW! is it that easy? Please comment on my theory, also can it be done with other systems such as Linux(CPanel), etc.

Originally posted by SurfTurtle
The main problem is that even after we delete the spammers from our servers SPEWS does not remove our IPs.

Before I comment on the rest of your post, could you please post your SPEWS case number and/or affected IP range so that we may get a better picture of what happened?

-Bob

i'm with you on the anti spews bandwagon. theres alot of host on here. maybe between the lot of us we could come up with a competitor?

doubtful. pathatic anti-spam groups like spews are sadly not exactly easy to get rid of.

Originally posted by thebyp2
i'm with you on the anti spews bandwagon. theres alot of host on here. maybe between the lot of us we could come up with a competitor?

Yes we could, here is my first contribution to this idea.
I think that we Web Hosting Companies should have a spammer database of our own that will warn us about spam-related domain names before we host them. This way spammers are the losers instead of us. They never get hosted so they never get to benefit from our hard honest work. This datavase should consist of domain names, and names and e-mail addresses of spammers.

The ideal thing would be to get it integrated into our billing softwares such as ModernBill.com, DearmHost, WebHostBilling, Ubersmith, etc. and whenever a new order comes in it is first check with the spammer database before hosting it. This way we can avoid tons of spam related problems even before they happen.

Allera,

Your post is so full of innaccuracies, it's almost laughable.

Originally posted by allera

Oh, and as far as I know, the only way to get yourself off of the SPEWS list is to post to a public newsgroup asking them to do so. Not only is it a public forum where you'll get raped with obnoxious pro-spammer comments, but it's not even guaranteed you'll get delisted.

Thats completely untrue. First of all, if you would bother to read the SPEWS FAQ, it explicitly states that the way to gut de-listed from SPEWS is to stop the spam. Period. The newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.email is suggested as a good place to discuss the problem, but that's it.

Here, directly from the SPEWS FAQ:

Note that posting messages in these newsgroups & lists will not have any effect on SPEWS listings, only the discontinuation of spam and/or spam support will.

Furthermore, your comment about getting "raped with obnoxious pro-spammer arguments" is ridiculous. NANAE is an anti-spam newsgroup.

I refuse to post to any newsgroup regarding delisting, which is why our IP addresses are and will remain listed.

If you remain listed, I can promise you it has nothing to do with your willingness or lack thereof to post in a public newsgroup.

Please take a moment to read the FAQ located at http://spews.org/faq.html . You probably still won't like it any better, but at least you'll be able to speak about the how's and whys of SPEWS a bit more knowledgeably.

-Bob

I did read the long faq that is tailored more for spammers than it is for people like me.

It has question after question that is only relevant to spammers.

Anyway I knew about the forum but not everybody wants to list their IP addresses in a public forum. Just one of the reasons is that even more spammers might see that IP address and abuse our servers even more.

from the polls i see that there are now pro-SPEWS people on this thread, would you care to share with us instances where SPEWS actually helped people. And also what about the 500+ websites that have to suffer just to stop one spammer, and remember that its not for sure that the spammer is stopped but those 500+ websites do suffer for sure.

Originally posted by SurfTurtle
i see that there are now pro-SPEWS people on this thread, would you care to share with us instances where SPEWS actually helped people.

Sure. It's helped me, for starters. It's also helped everyone else who uses the SPEWS list to keep a tremendous amount of spam out of their networks. It's also alerted some formerly spam-tolerant networks to the extent of their problem, to the point where some have finally been motivated to get off their asses and do something about it. XO communications is a good example of just such a company. They're still far from perfect, but they are actively trying to solve their spam problems. H.E., on the other hand, is an example of a company who will never, ever get it, and will probably stay listed until the end of time.


And also what about the 500+ websites that have to suffer just to stop one spammer, and remember that its not for sure that the spammer is stopped but those 500+ websites do suffer for sure.

First off, SPEWS doesn't start out listing these huge netblocks. A listing will usually start with one IP or a very small handful of IPs surrounding the offending IP. From there, if spam complaints go ignored and the spam continues, the size of the listing is gradually expanded until it gets someone's attention. If the listing grows to include "500+ websites", then so be it. Frankly, it is not my problem. I trust SPEWS, which is why I use it.

These "500+ websites", on the other hand, should realize that their problem is not with SPEWS, but rather with their provider for allowing the spam to flow unhindered. That's what they should be bitching about.

The thing you need to understand is that people who subscribe to SPEWS do so because they do not want traffic from spammers or spam-tolerant providers. I am under no obligation to carry or allow any traffic from anyone who I choose not to, and by using SPEWS, I am excercising my right to keep spammers and spam-tolerant providers out of my machines. Why is that so difficult to understand?

I'm still waiting for your spews case number, btw. If you have a legitimate complaint, I'm sure you won't have a problem posting it. You can PM me if you prefer not to make it public.

-Bob

I can see both sides. I think everyone agrees that the core of the problem is the spammers.

Webhosts are unfairly, IMHO, being given the burden of dealing with this massive problem. OTOH, every business has it's problems to overcome so that's life. I think there is something to be said for the concept that someone may want to do everything possible to get rid of spam and if they are upfront about what they are doing, I can understand people signing up with them and they have the right to keep out whatever traffic they want.

However, I'm amazed that the government has done basically zilch about this growing problems. The DMA should not be such a big lobby that the entire world has to suffer so that people can send out spam.

The rules for spam should be very clear cut, and failure to follow the rules should result in prosecution, period. A lot of these spammers can be identified and they would be sued if what they did was illegal.

And selling the software to spam should be double illegal. They should all be on double secret probation :D

I noticed the other day that kernel.org posted something essentially ranting about SPEWS -- apparently, a spammer has a nearby ISP, and SPEWS has overzealously started blocking other people, including the kernel.org mailing list server. They state that this has occurred repeatedly, and they usually unblock it, but that they're fed up with having to repeatedly get themselves removed for spam someone not even related to them sends out. They conclude " For obvious reasons, we do not recommend that you use the SPEWS RBL."

I haven't used it personally, but it sounds like SPEWS has some serious problems that need to be worked out. I'd rather get a deluge of spam than have legitimate mail rejected, and, in my opinion, any list that wrongfully blacklists innocent sources is doing a lot more harm than good, and should either clean up their act or people should stop using it.

Originally posted by TMX
Thats completely untrue. First of all, if you would bother to read the SPEWS FAQ, it explicitly states that the way to gut de-listed from SPEWS is to stop the spam. Period. The newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.email is suggested as a good place to discuss the problem, but that's it.

Here, directly from the SPEWS FAQ:

Note that posting messages in these newsgroups & lists will not have any effect on SPEWS listings, only the discontinuation of spam and/or spam support will.
Uh huh. So let's see. We'll go to my case (look up mail.focalhosting.com and you should find it, I care not to look it up again -- be prepared to read because it's damn long). We host a domain themeetingspot.com or something like that. They have some kind of referral program where they give their users an ID, that user gives the link+ID to a friend, the friend signs up, the user gets some perk or something. Well, some user decided to spam his own little link like mad crazy. So in return, themeetingspot.com get tagged as a spammer. We get tagged as a spam-friendly host because we refuse to remove our customer who had nothing to do with the spamming (their user did). So what happens to us? We get our IP address(es) listed. Why are they still listed? Because we still host themeetingspot.com. Why do we host them? Because they are innocent and not a single soul has brought me any shred of evidence that they are not.

Don't come preaching to me that the discontinuation of spam and/or spam support will delist us. SPEWS is an automatic list, and that in itself is its flaw. You can preach how people use it and are happy with it blah blah all you want, but it's a flawed system and anyone who uses it need to be educated on its flaws.

Furthermore, your comment about getting "raped with obnoxious pro-spammer arguments" is ridiculous. NANAE is an anti-spam newsgroup.
You need to quote me better: "raped with obnoxious pro-spammer comments," meaning the poster is often attacked. I read the posts, I don't make this up. I am disgusted with that newsgroup. That's my own opinion. You have yours. I don't care to hear about it.


Please take a moment to read the FAQ located at http://spews.org/faq.html . You probably still won't like it any better, but at least you'll be able to speak about the how's and whys of SPEWS a bit more knowledgeably.

That FAQ disgusts me. I've read it a couple of times and I get angry when I read it. I am a very calm person and I very rarely get angry. But the way SPEWS goes about doing things is flat out wrong. SPEWS will crumble one day, people are already starting to avoid it. It's just a matter of time. For this reason, I'll repeat again, I do not care that our IP address(s) are listed. If it makes SPEWS happy that they feel they are stopping a spam-friendly host from delivering mail to their followers, I'm happy for them.

Originally posted by TMX
Sure. It's helped me, for starters. It's also helped everyone else who uses the SPEWS list to keep a tremendous amount of spam out of their networks.
It's kinda hard to get spam when a large portion of provider IP addresses are blocked. You're right, SPEWS does work as far as keeping your mailbox free (relatively speaking) from spam, but at what price?

Originally posted by fog
... any list that wrongfully blacklists innocent sources is doing a lot more harm than good, and should either clean up their act or people should stop using it.
Very well said. You hit the nail right on the head.

Originally posted by allera

Uh huh. So let's see. We'll go to my case (look up mail.focalhosting.com and you should find it, I care not to look it up again -- be prepared to read because it's damn long).

Already did.



Well, some user decided to spam his own little link like mad crazy. So in return, themeetingspot.com get tagged as a spammer. We get tagged as a spam-friendly host because we refuse to remove our customer who had nothing to do with the spamming (their user did).


I see your point. However, I also know that if I had a dime for every referral spam that landed in my various inboxes since the beginning of the year, I would have a very large bank account by now.

If, like me, you subscribe to the theory that "referral programs" practically encourage spam, then you will also come to the conclusion that continuing to host such a site can be considered spam support, therefore earning you your rightful spot in spews.

That said, I also don't see where themeetingspot.com has had any complaints in quite some time. I also don't see it's current IP listed in SPEWS anymore.

Is there something else going on here? What's your relationship with the "aussie porn spamhaus" from the old listing? Either I'm missing the boat, or there's more to this than meets the eye..

Don't come preaching to me that the discontinuation of spam and/or spam support will delist us.

I'm not preaching, I'm stating a fact. People get de-listed every single day. How? They eliminate the spam and the spammers from their networks.

You can preach how people use it and are happy with it blah blah all you want, but it's a flawed system and anyone who uses it need to be educated on its flaws.

There's educating people on it's flaws, and then there's talking nonsense and trying to pass it off as fact, which is what you were doing.

I agree that people need to be made aware of both the pros and cons of using a list as agressive as SPEWS. At any rate, I never said SPEWS was perfect, I said it works for me.

You need to quote me better: "raped with obnoxious pro-spammer comments," meaning the poster is often attacked.

It doesn't read any better that way either. "Pro-spammer comments" would be comments in favor of spammers, would they not?

I read the posts, I don't make this up. I am disgusted with that newsgroup. That's my own opinion.

That newsgroup, as with anywhere else, has it's sane, rational people, and then it has it's nutjobs and plain old nasty bastards. It's the latter group, unfortunately, which has given it the reputation it has.

You have yours. I don't care to hear about it.

Then why did you even bother posting?

-Bob

I retract any positive things I said about spews.

Spews is brilliant!

If only the postal service did this with snail mail! A junk mailer lives in your apartment and that address and the apartment complex gets blacklisted. Each post office could choose if it wanted to use the blacklist or not! Your mail could get tagged, bagged, and tossed at any point along the way. Maybe the whole block will be listed or the whole town! Simply brilliant!

You'd get less junk mail, for sure... :rolleyes:

Although there are a lot of problems w/ affiliate programs, it's a little much to punish honest companies using affiliate programs. I think the aff systems like linkshare should have some standard verbiage which would make the client legally liable in a big way for spamming...that would do a good job in reducing affiliate-related spam...

However, there are good uses for the affiliate system...and if we punish the honest people because of some bad spammers then the terrorists will have won.

Originally posted by TMX


First off, SPEWS doesn't start out listing these huge netblocks. A listing will usually start with one IP or a very small handful of IPs surrounding the offending IP. From there, if spam complaints go ignored and the spam continues, the size of the listing is gradually expanded until it gets someone's attention. If the listing grows to include "500+ websites", then so be it. Frankly, it is not my problem. I trust SPEWS, which is why I use it.

-Bob

I am not saying that they block huge IP blocks, but what about those of us who are doing name-based hosting.

Many of the supporters of SPEWS say that SPEWS is a private organization that can deny anyones mail without any reason.

I would like to have a go at this unfair yet very strong argument. Take a normal user for example it takes him about 10 mins a day deleting spam e-mails from his inbox at max. But what if someone was to say that I can eliminate the spam problem for you and save your 10 mins. He would thank god for this great person or service and say sure what do i need to do? Now he only spends 2 mins a day deleting the few spam that got through but is very happy. But what he does'nt know is that his bank/employer/lover sent him an urgent e-mail which he must urgently respond to but what do you know, he never got the doomed e-mail becuase the ISP that the sender was unknowingly using was blocked.

Now I ask everyone to decide that was this man helped or stabbed in the back by this person who claimed to save 8 lousy mins for this innocent person.

I say SPEWS is a lousy organization which is hiding behind the 'right to deny access to anyone law' just becuase its scared to admit its own failures.

I do not believe that SPEWS can deny access to anyone they like becuase they gave up that right by inviting the whole world to use thier database. They are a public database and should behave in a responsible manner otherwise it should be shut down, but again I must stress that we do need an EFFECTIVE system in its place to help prevent spam.

SPEWS should act responsibly, but there is noone realizes how much damage SPEWS has done to them atleast as far as the average internet user is convcerned becuase he never finds out what important e-mails were blocked by SPEWS.

As they say "What you don't know can't hurt you" but in this case this is hurting not only WebHosting companies who 'know' about it but it is also hurting on a far greater scale innocent unknowing internet users. The very people that SPEWS is supposed to be helping is being slow poisoned by it.

Originally posted by SurfTurtle


I am not saying that they block huge IP blocks, but what about those of us who are doing name-based hosting.

Chicken,
you are absolutely right, and the ironic part is that noone in that apartment block will realize this until its too late. They will infact be very happy.

This thread is getting very interesting, is there a was I can start another poll in this same thread?

Polls can be modified, just send an email to moderators@webhostingtalk.com with thread URL and changes.

Originally posted by sup?
I think the aff systems like linkshare should have some standard verbiage which would make the client legally liable in a big way for spamming...that would do a good job in reducing affiliate-related spam...

Verbiage is meaningless if there is no enforcement. Years of ISPs and hosts turning a blind eye to their spamming customers who went about their business in full violation of their AUP's are what ultimately brought organizations like spews into existance in the first place.

-Bob

Originally posted by Chicken
Spews is brilliant!

If only the postal service did this with snail mail! A junk mailer lives in your apartment and that address and the apartment complex gets blacklisted. Each post office could choose if it wanted to use the blacklist or not! Your mail could get tagged, bagged, and tossed at any point along the way. Maybe the whole block will be listed or the whole town! Simply brilliant!

You'd get less junk mail, for sure... :rolleyes:

Haha well said, I had this big long post working and I read your reply and figured hell I'll just quote you, this pretty much sums it up.

As an end user (not a webhost) I've been affected by SPEWS. After reading their newsgroup though I decided it was a waste of time to complain. On the other hand I wish great success to anyone trying to put them out of business. Spam is on the increase and I've not seen any hard evidence that they have made a dent in it. I *have* seen eveidence that several of them seem to be on some sort of power trip and are not particularly interested in whether they are effective or not. They just like the attention they get.

Their FAQ admits to being self contradictory. The fact that they are both ineffective and don't even have a concise, uniform mission should give any administrator a clue about the value of their list.

Anyone who says: "by using their list my system has to deal with a lot less spam" I have this advise... Just block every other message, or whatever percentage you need to block to make your system handle the load, I think you will see about the same effect.

If these guys *really* cared that much about sopping spammers they would be energetic about protecting innocent users from being blocked... I see no such energy from them. They also don't block the mega mailers like AOL or MSN... why should they be exempt? Sounds like hypocrisy to me.

I couldn't resist adding this...the very next posting I saw in their newsgroup... first a plea from an end user who is having mail blocked, followed by their typical response:

------------- quote----
our provider was included in a range of addresses blocked by SPEWS. We

> have

>> no relationship with the online casino mentioned in the evidence file and
>> would appreciate timely removal of 209.196.49.119 from your list.


We have no relationship with said casino spammer, either, yet your ISP
sees fit to alow them to continue to spam us. The only way that listing
will be removed is when the spammer is gone... you'll need to contact
your ISP and get them to boot the spammer. Don't accept a
renumbering... if they keep the spammer around, the block will grow and
you'll be right back in it. If your ISP values the spammers' business
more than yours, well, you'll have learned a little something to watch
for in your search for another ISP.

----------end quote----

I spent months selecting my current hosting company. What finally convinced me to try them was their stated policies on spam and adult material (forbidden). The SPEW people ignore the realities of the end user , including small organizations who can't afford to hop from webhost to webhost every few weeks. The SPEWS people are the ones who need to be educated... to the workings of the real world.

Originally posted by macb
I spent months selecting my current hosting company. What finally convinced me to try them was their stated policies on spam and adult material (forbidden). The SPEW people ignore the realities of the end user , including small organizations who can't afford to hop from webhost to webhost every few weeks. The SPEWS people are the ones who need to be educated... to the workings of the real world.

That is very true, not everyone can jump hosts as quickly as those spammers. This means spammers can enjoy total freedom by jumping hosts every time, but the innocent small businesses and users get to pay for the damages caused by them.

Is this the vision of SPEWS of a fair and just world? Where the culprits do the damages but the bystanders are made to pay for it?

I can prove this as this has happened to many of my clients. More than a dozen of my clients have been seriously affected by SPEWS but none of them have left me so far as it is to much costly for them. And also most of them don't even know how to change hosts so they are stuck with the SPEWS blacklist.

I challenge any SPEWS supporter to prove that SPEWS is helping fight spam. Just visit SPEWS.org and lookup a random case. And then check whether the spammer listed in SPEWS is still operating or not. I can guarantee that 90% of the spammers' websites will still be working. Is this what you call progress? and also see his damage trail, at least 5-10 ISPs/WebHosts will be listed there which proves that they had to suffer becuase of this ONE spammer.

Now do this with another random case and another one and you will always find the same thing. So now tell me how you think SPEWS is good for us.

Originally posted by macb
The SPEWS people are the ones who need to be educated... to the workings of the real world.

Same could be said for those who think they're entitled to my inbox. In the real world, if someone doesn't want to accept your email traffic, they are under no obligation to do so.

Let me ask you this - if your IP gets caught up in a spews listing as a result of your provider not taking action against spammers, why aren't you complaining to your provider?

-Bob

Originally posted by SurfTurtle
I can prove this as this has happened to many of my clients. More than a dozen of my clients have been seriously affected by SPEWS but none of them have left me so far as it is to much costly for them.

OK, so prove it - give us your spews case number, which I've asked you for twice now.

You keep singing this "poor me" song, yet you have not put forth one shred of evidence to support your claims of wrongdoing by spews. With all due respect, I think the phrase "put up or shut up" is appropriate at this point.

-Bob

I will defend anybody's right to compile any spammer's blacklist however imperfect. And they will all be...

The point is in the use of it. If it is the end-user - no problem. They make the choice, they take the risk of losing vital stuff - and most important of all - if they find it is costing them business or goodwill they will modify/remove it. As long as the blacklist comes with a sensible health warning than it is down to the end user what they get.

As an ISP I get calls from people who have had legitimate (even vital) email blocked by filters.

But when that filter has been put in by some obscure system administrator (to the user) - we/he has a problem. In the nature of the business this person may be employed several companies removed from the end-user or me. If you even mention the term spammer you are implicating that a valued client or his systems are nefarious. Explaining what has happened and even suggesting how the end-user can get the problem fixed is effectively a non-starter.

So I aim my venom at the over zealous sys admin using blacklists on behalf of other people. Perhaps the blacklist organisations are guilty at over promoting their services to this group.

Frankly my life has been made much more difficult by over zealous anti-spammers (who are very difficult to unhitch) compared to zealous spammers who I can usually take out myself at the server.

End users can use stuff like MailWasher - which I think is great - EXCEPT - for the default bouncing (and encourageing more bouncing) which to an ISP makes things much more difficult and must increase the global load of e-mail. With false return paths bouncing is pretty useless idea for getting delisted from spammers.

Hope I haven't started a bounce/don't bounce war....

Originally posted by TMX


OK, so prove it - give us your spews case number, which I've asked you for twice now.

You keep singing this "poor me" song, yet you have not put forth one shred of evidence to support your claims of wrongdoing by spews. With all due respect, I think the phrase "put up or shut up" is appropriate at this point.

-Bob

I have sent you the case numbers by PM. Sorry for being late. I do not want to post them here for being a target to more spammers.

Originally posted by TMX
[B]I see your point. However, I also know that if I had a dime for every referral spam that landed in my various inboxes since the beginning of the year, I would have a very large bank account by now.
I'm sorry I got hot and I'm glad you see my point. You can't go blaming referral programs, though, because they are very legit and they work nicely (look at Pay Pal). It's up to the company offering the referral program to take action on such users, which I strongly believe our customer (themeetingspot.com) did (otherwise we may not be hosting them right now).

If, like me, you subscribe to the theory that "referral programs" practically encourage spam, then you will also come to the conclusion that continuing to host such a site can be considered spam support, therefore earning you your rightful spot in spews.
So what you're saying is that anyone that hosts any site who has referral programs (with links or maybe otherwise) should rightfully be listed in SPEWS because of the "good chances" spam will originate from that site and that the host is a "spam supporter" for allowing the site to continue to operate, even when 1) they are innocent of anything (no spam has happened at all concerning them) or 2) they enforce their AUP/TOS regarding the spamming of referral links? I guess that's what SPEWS means by "early warning", eh? It's ridiculous.

That said, I also don't see where themeetingspot.com has had any complaints in quite some time. I also don't see it's current IP listed in SPEWS anymore.
Hey! We're delisted! Finally! Wonder when that happened.

Is there something else going on here? What's your relationship with the "aussie porn spamhaus" from the old listing? Either I'm missing the boat, or there's more to this than meets the eye..
No, I don't know how that aussie porn spamhaus thing got into the case, and I don't even know what it is. I saw it plastered all over the case (I trust you read that long, long, long case), but I didn't know why.


That newsgroup, as with anywhere else, has it's sane, rational people, and then it has it's nutjobs and plain old nasty bastards. It's the latter group, unfortunately, which has given it the reputation it has.
It seems to me that the nutjobs are the more vocal people in that newsgroup. I don't know, I read through the posts of people needing help, then they get attacked at how either they are spam supporters or their ISP is and that their ISP should burn in hell for supporting the spam (even if they are anti-spam advocates!). They seem to jump the gun based on few, if any, facts. Guilty until proven innocent. It aggravates me, which is why I stay away from the group. I only go to it to see if we're being discussed for some reason, and luckily we've managed to not be mentioned much.

I do support blacklists such as Spamcop, simply because they have a good system. They have humans behind it that I can talk to. They have good educational tools that really help the user and ISPs understand what's going on and how Spamcop works. They lean more towards the innocent-until-proven-guilty than most others (they give you a chance to explain yourself and fix the problem before you are listed). I have gotten plenty of Spamcop complaints, mostly because of formmail scripts customers use. We get the complaint, find the source of the spam, put a stop to it and deal with the customer according to our policies, respond to Spamcop stating the problem has been dealt with, bam, we're not listed. If it happens again, we get listed (but that's understandable -- we didn't do our job in stopping it in the first place).

I hate spam just as much as the next guy. However, there's a right way to deal with it, and a wrong way to deal with it. While Spamcop and the others may not be perfect, SPEWS is definitely the wrong way to deal with it. It just hurts too many innocent mail hosts in the process. Yea, I know it's the mail admin who ultimately "chooses" to use the blacklist, but if they aren't educated on SPEWS' methods of listing, they think they have a good blacklist, they use it (and of course don't get any more spam), they are happy, until they don't get that one piece of vital email because a host was unjustly listed. They stop using the list and that's that. Had they been educated on SPEWS' methods of listing earlier, they might not have used the blacklist in the first place and gotten that piece of vital email from the innocent mail host.

Sorry for the long post. I just keep on typing and typing. I hope it all makes sense. This isn't an attack on you, Bob, in case it comes across that way (hope not). It's a strong stance against SPEWS.

Read the SPEWS FAQ. You are making assumptions without knowing what SPEWS really DOES.

SPEWS blocks rogue webhosts/ISPs that refuse to shut down their documented spammers after many, many warnings. If you are in a SPEWS-blocked range, it is because your ISP completely ignored multitudes of spam complaints, and is knowingly harboring known, documented spam gangs.

SPEWS is a list of blocked ISPs, *not* blocked users.

And you wondered why that webhosting account you got was so cheap? you get what you pay for. Go to legitimate host that does not harbor spamming operations.

Originally posted by giblet
Read the SPEWS FAQ. You are making assumptions without knowing what SPEWS really DOES.

SPEWS blocks rogue webhosts/ISPs that refuse to shut down their documented spammers after many, many warnings. If you are in a SPEWS-blocked range, it is because your ISP completely ignored multitudes of spam complaints, and is knowingly harboring known, documented spam gangs.

SPEWS is a list of blocked ISPs, *not* blocked users.

And you wondered why that webhosting account you got was so cheap? you get what you pay for. Go to legitimate host that does not harbor spamming operations.

Please be real:

1- I did not get a single complaint about spam nor did my ISP.
2- I was not warned by SPEWS about being listed, infact they never inform anyone they just add the IPs on the first indication even that we are harbouring spammers.
3- SPEWS does not only block 'rogue' webhosts/ISPs, infact it blocks anyone who hosts a sites falling in these catagories"Sites Which Send Spam, Sites which support SPAM, Sites which are pro-spam in any way"
4- In my case no spam was sent through my server, I just hosted a site which was pro-spam. Also remember that I did not invite the spammer to give assylum or harbour him. He found me on his own and dispite my AUP which states that I will terminate spammers account if I find one on my system he still signed up. And I did terminate his account immediately for which he even threatened legal action against me.
5- SPEWS is not only a list of ISPs but also webhosts. Also if you block an ISP you are blocking their users as well who are the real victims. In case of a webhost(especially namebased hosts) not only the users but also the webhosts suffer a lot.

If you are so proud that your network is so secure against spammers give me your address and I will prove to you how secure it is. Don't attack cheap hosts just becuase you can't compete with them.

Read the SPEWS FAQ. You are making assumptions without knowing what SPEWS really DOES.
No, I really think you need to go read the FAQ again. SPEWS does not send out notices, they constantly direct you to the newsgroups to take care of your problem with another warm body (or just wait patiently as your IP is delisted while your mail bounces to and fro). I have found absolutely no way to communicate with SPEWS (or communication FROM SPEWS) other than that newsgroup.

SPEWS blocks rogue webhosts/ISPs that refuse to shut down their documented spammers after many, many warnings. If you are in a SPEWS-blocked range, it is because your ISP completely ignored multitudes of spam complaints, and is knowingly harboring known, documented spam gangs.
Many, many warnings, eh? Present a single warning to me originating from the SPEWS system. I have never received anything from anyone even remotely related to SPEWS. I found out we were listed earlier this year by accident as I was scanning lists to see if we were listed. Do not try to tell me that we were listed because we (or our provider, which has nothing to do with this) "ignored multitudes of spam complaints." You're blowing hot air. We take spam complaints very seriously (as does our provider). I dare you to present a _single_ case when we were alerted of a spam problem and did nothing about it. Just one, itsy, bitsy, single case where we had just one warning (I'm excusing your "many, many" and "multitudes" part on this one). You won't find it because we take care of every, single, tiny spam warning. We even scan logs to make sure nothing funky is going on from time to time, and we catch people in the act sometimes, even before we get any warnings.

Yet, we must harbor these spammers because afterall, we were listed in SPEWS!

Originally posted by allera


Many, many warnings, eh? Present a single warning to me originating from the SPEWS system. I have never received anything from anyone even remotely related to SPEWS. I found out we were listed earlier this year by accident as I was scanning lists to see if we were listed. Do not try to tell me that we were listed because we (or our provider, which has nothing to do with this) "ignored multitudes of spam complaints." You're blowing hot air. We take spam complaints very seriously (as does our provider). I dare you to present a _single_ case when we were alerted of a spam problem and did nothing about it. Just one, itsy, bitsy, single case where we had just one warning (I'm excusing your "many, many" and "multitudes" part on this one). You won't find it because we take care of every, single, tiny spam warning. We even scan logs to make sure nothing funky is going on from time to time, and we catch people in the act sometimes, even before we get any warnings.

Yet, we must harbor these spammers because afterall, we were listed in SPEWS!

Here is that spam notification you adamantly state that you never got:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=NFBBILMLFBNCHAOFPEHFMENDCPAA.delete%40stephanis.com

Originally posted by SurfTurtle


If you are so proud that your network is so secure against spammers give me your address and I will prove to you how secure it is. Don't attack cheap hosts just becuase you can't compete with them.

Your sideways threat to attack one of my systems has been noted.

Originally posted by giblet
Here is that spam notification you adamantly state that you never got:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=NFBBILMLFBNCHAOFPEHFMENDCPAA.delete%40stephanis.com
Nope, I got that one, and it was taken care of immediately. I tried sending mail back to the guy who emailed me (Paul), but he blocked us, so it just bounced back. Oh well. I took care of the problem on the account, told the owner about the problem (formmail problem), they told me they corrected it, spam stopped, problem solved. I don't think I've had a problem with that account ever since (that was back in April).

Nice try, but you'll have to try harder than that. That also wasn't an email from anyone related to SPEWS, at least not that I am aware of. He simply posted to the newsgroup (whoopie).

Besides, I don't think we were listed on SPEWS because of that.

Got any more?

Woohoo, we're in the newsgroup:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=webhostingtalk.com&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=Xns928D18B2E6D991116243242%4024.25.0.82&rnum=3

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SurfTurtle
[B]Many of the supporters of SPEWS say that SPEWS is a private organization that can deny anyones mail without any reason.


Normally I dont bother responding to threads like this , but Surfturtle you speak with such authority about things you still cant grasp!
I can state categorically that not a single supporter of SPEWS says that SPEWS can block mail from whoever they want!The fact is that the people who support SPEWS can read and do understand fully (unlike many in this thread) that SPEWS DOES NOT BLOCK EMAIL from anywhere or anyone on the planet!
SPEWS only compile a list "FACT" ISP's make the decission to use this list , SPEWS do not force ISP's to use it.
You people that run ISP's and then Whine about SPEWS listings saying that you are or have been victims of spammers raping your services and then moving on,leaving you or inocent domains listed.
Someone even suggested that there should be a list that ISP's can look at to see known spammers before they host them!HELLO !!! The smart ISP's that ARE NOT in SPEWS because they know how to run a business will look in SPEWS to see if their potential customer is or has been listed and why.
Hmmmm porn.spam listed for spamming, Ok then do a search yourself in google , there will in all cases be evidence of such abuse to be listed in SPEWS , If they are in SPEWS or their are reports of porn.spam SPAMMING , SAY NO THANKS !
The same goes for the end user , If you dont want SPEWS filtered Email dont purchase an account on an ISP that uses SPEWS! Simple!
Complaining is a bit like building a house near a race track and then complaining about the noise! Look around , shop around , it's your money !
For my money I insist on SPEWS Based filtering , because I dont want to be a victim of some poorly run ISP that lets known spammers send SPAM with some 18 YO girl with a **** in her mouth! Why should I have to ask my 4 YO daughter to go away while daddy checks his email?? I dont have to do that when I check letter box at home!

Exposed

Originally posted by giblet
Read the SPEWS FAQ. You are making assumptions without knowing what SPEWS really DOES.

SPEWS blocks rogue webhosts/ISPs that refuse to shut down their documented spammers after many, many warnings. If you are in a SPEWS-blocked range, it is because your ISP completely ignored multitudes of spam complaints, and is knowingly harboring known, documented spam gangs.

SPEWS is a list of blocked ISPs, *not* blocked users.

And you wondered why that webhosting account you got was so cheap? you get what you pay for. Go to legitimate host that does not harbor spamming operations.

Soooo

You're saying if I use an ultra expensive web hosting provider I can't spam with their service?

Or I can't send spam from ANOTHER service, say in Russia PROMOTING my site hosted with the ultra expensive host?

The price you pay for hosting is not an issue, I can sign up with a cheap or an expensive host, and have either listed on SPEWS before you know it, no matter how much that hosting costs me.

Your logic escapes me.

I rented a server once who had an IP that was ALREADY listed on Spews, a bit of an aggravation but nothing major, just set the sendmail on that server to relay through a server of mine that ISN'T on spews and wait for the IP to drop off the list, assuming it ever does.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by allera
[B]
Just one, itsy, bitsy, single case where we had just one warning (I'm excusing your "many, many" and "multitudes" part on this one). You won't find it because we take care of every, single, tiny spam warning.

<Here is that spam notification you adamantly state that you never got:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...40stephanis.com >

You say one itsy , bitsy single case! , You got exactely what you asked for ??
Did you say you run as ISP ? You cant read , you cant accept facts that you asked for ?? How do you sit with the easter bunny man ?

One more observation , SPEWS will never die! the anti SPEWS movement will Grow , but strangly enough this movement consists only of people that seem to have their Domains / IP's listed in that wonderful list we know as SPEWS
When ISP's wake up to the fact that people HATE SPAM and adopt a 0% tolerance to SPAM and SPAM Friendly hosts , the SPEWS list will become very small and insignificant.
GET serious about SPAM if you really hate SPEWS ! Without SPAM there will be no SPEWS , YOU WIN , I WIN and Everybody WINS except the internet rapists!

Exposed

Originally posted by exposed
When ISP's wake up to the fact that people HATE SPAM and adopt a 0% tolerance to SPAM and SPAM Friendly hosts , the SPEWS list will become very small and insignificant.
GET serious about SPAM if you really hate SPEWS ! Without SPAM there will be no SPEWS , YOU WIN , I WIN and Everybody WINS except the internet rapists!

Exposed [/B]

Yeah those hosts in Russia and elsewhere are gonna wake up one day and say "OH MAN WE WERE SO WRONG" and quit letting spammers use them.

Any host in America should be quite spam unfriendly thanks to the threat of litigation over spam (has anyone read the news lately? People are being sued and LOSING about spam), it isn't SPEWS I fear, I can just setup a relay elsewhere and get around a spews listing for a little while if one of my customers manages to get me on it, but the fear of getting sued or even facing criminal charges will make sure I do my best to walk the straight and narrow.

Yes I hate spam, god if anyone gets more spam than I do on a daily basis I truly feel for them and I act on every spam complaint quickly but I still can't say I agree with the attitudes prevalent amongst the SPEWS crowd. I rarely ever agree with anyone who's that militant about anything, I see those SPEWS fellas spouting off and they begin sounding like any other radical group.

As someone who reguraly send complaints about the spam I receive, I see two type of ISP, or web host: those who enforce their AUP against spam on the spot, and those, out of greed or ignorance, who ignore me, and probably thousands of other victims. These ISPs are the main cause of spam, or it simply wouldn't be worth it for spammers if their web site was disconnected after a few hours. For these rogue ISP, my only recourse is SPEWS, which gradually blacklist them with a larger range as they continue to ignore complaints over time (and SPEWS does not make formal notifications, they pass themselves as normal users, as it should be). I have seen abusive ISPs finally cancel the spammer account only because they were forced too by SPEWS. These ISPs were perfectly willing to have just the spammer blocked by antispam lists, but obviously, not their whole range, because it is not economically viable.

So as a spam victim, I thank god for SPEWS since they very often are the only one who can make a difference. Other passive, conservative blocklists simply do not cut it these days after years of spam growth.

A note regarding the nanae newgroup: many spammers frequent these boards to disrupt the antispam movement by posting insulting and kooky messages to those who need to discuss their SPEWS case. Just filter them out, and take the good info posted by others.

Another note: spammers now very often use the cover of an affiliate operation to justify themselves to their ISP. If an affiliate page is not canceled on the spot after spam complaints showing evidence of their abuse, or if someone still profit from the spam run by redirecting the page somewhere else, expect to be blacklisted. This particular business model requires extreme attention to abuse, and if someone isn't responsible enough, the blacklisting is justified because these businesses simply generate too much spam. Why should I be victimised because of someone else business model?

IRT:

...
What it does is that once it detects that you have a spammer on your server or even a site that is itself not sending spam but promotes spam SPEWS immediately lists the IP address of your server or sometimes your whole IP range in its database which many ISPs use to filter spam e-mails. Now any e-mail originating from those IPs will be blocked by ISPs using the SPEWS databse.
...

My understanding is that a SPEWS listing is only immediate when
the spammer has a prior reputation for spamming. Otherwise,
it takes at least a little while. The former process, immediate
listing on sight, is one of hte most valuable features of SPEWS,
blocking spam befor it is sent.

...
The main problem is that even after we delete the spammers from our servers SPEWS does not remove our IPs.
...

(Readers are encouraged to read the entire preceding post.)

I have two questions:

Can you provide specific information allowing verification of at least one example of a permanent SPEWS listing of spam and
spammer free IP space?

Will you?

--

FF

You say one itsy , bitsy single case! , You got exactely what you asked for ??
Did you say you run as ISP ? You cant read , you cant accept facts that you asked for ?? How do you sit with the easter bunny man ?

I suppose I will have to quote myself:

I dare you to present a _single_ case when we were alerted of a spam problem and did nothing about it. Just one, itsy, bitsy, single case where we had just one warning (I'm excusing your "many, many" and "multitudes" part on this one). You won't find it because we take care of every, single, tiny spam warning. We even scan logs to make sure nothing funky is going on from time to time, and we catch people in the act sometimes, even before we get any warnings.
Read that carefully (aloud if you have to). Then come back and tell me I can't read. It's not my fault you have selective memory about the things you read.

I clearly stated that this case was handled immediately after getting a notice about it:

Nope, I got that one, and it was taken care of immediately.
But I think you missed that too. This was in response to giblet's post stating:

SPEWS blocks rogue webhosts/ISPs that refuse to shut down their documented spammers after many, many warnings. If you are in a SPEWS-blocked range, it is because your ISP completely ignored multitudes of spam complaints, and is knowingly harboring known, documented spam gangs.

1) i hate spam
2) i use mailwasher
3) since i started using mailwasher, i get more spam
4) there are people who browse through their spam looking for "deals"
5) russia, china, czechoslovakia, et. al. couldn't care less about us spoiled brats with our moaning about spam
6) spam will never be eradicated because it works

the best way to eliminate the aggressively imposed "need" for the servives of spews, spamcop and the rest is to:
1) just accept that deleting spam is a way of life, take the extra time to delete it, and be grateful that you don't have more pressing concerns, like food, water, dodging bullets, ad infinitum...
2) let the backbones setup the SPAM CHANNEL, where those who want spam can have their fun, and those who want to advertise there can waste all the time they want...

...btw, i know that spam is considered an illegal and unauthorized use of system resources in some countries, and may cause traffic problems, among others... i think that's a bad thing, too... but, again, please refer to: 6) above...

...in conclusion, please don't construe any of the above as an indication that i know what i'm talking about... this post is for entertainment purposes only, and in no way guarantees the information is accurate, or that you will be entertained...
p.s. i would prefer to shoot the drug dealer myself than have someone else attempt it "as a service to me whether i like it or not", then end up shooting me by mistake...
:dunce:

Originally posted by TMX

Let me ask you this - if your IP gets caught up in a spews listing as a result of your provider not taking action against spammers, why aren't you complaining to your provider?

-Bob

Because my life does not revolve around ending spam as yours perhaps does. There is no "Conusmers Reports" magazine that tells me which webhosts to use, and since your list is subject to frequent change, such a publication would be useless anyway.

In real world terms: There are ordinairy citizens such as myself who hate spam but don't want to spend 80 percent of our time worrying about it. There are functional organizations like Spamcop trying to do something about it. There are webhosts, from million dollar mansion style to ghetto appartment building. There are bad guys (spammers, porners and con artists), and finally there are lunatics yelling that the world is comming to an end and throwing molatov cocktails into apparment buidings that they see spammers go into. (That would be the SPEWS approach).

The problem is not with your motives. The problem is not with your technical abilities. The problem is that the SPEWS system ONLY works (if it works) at the expense of filtering a lot of legitimate mail. Some of us find that unacceptable, no matter how valid your motivations are.

(and please don't repeat that SPEWS is only providing the list, and not doing the filtering... we know that already. The debate is about the big picture...does it work...does it do more harm than good... we know HOW it works already)

Originally posted by fredfighter
What it does is that once it detects that you have a spammer on your server or even a site that is itself not sending spam but promotes spam SPEWS immediately lists the IP address of your server or sometimes your whole IP range in its database which many ISPs use to filter spam e-mails. Now any e-mail originating from those IPs will be blocked by ISPs using the SPEWS databse.

Yea, that's a good idea. The only problem is you now filter legitimate email just because this spammer fella got a hosting account at XYZ Hosting. Now poor XYZ Hosting, not knowing he's got a spammer on board, has all of his clients' emails filters by those using the SPEWS list. XYZ Hosting takes notice and says "OH MY" and deletes the account on sight. Now they have to sit there and WAIT for the IP address(es) to fall off the list before their customer emails are no longer filtered by those who use the list. I fail to see why SPEWS supporters do not see a problem with this. This is 1 of the 2 major faults of SPEWS that I see. The second is no one to contact IN CASE this happens! And you know it does! But no. SPEWS has no one. SPEWS relies on a public newsgroup for damage control. Even then it's not guaranteed you'll have your IP address(es) removed, as it has been stated here numerous times.


My understanding is that a SPEWS listing is only immediate when
the spammer has a prior reputation for spamming. Otherwise,
it takes at least a little while. The former process, immediate
listing on sight, is one of hte most valuable features of SPEWS,
blocking spam befor it is sent.
I understand where you're coming from, and I too agree that that is generally a good idea, but it needs to be refined. If you're going to automatically list IP addresses based on association alone, you're going to need a staff to handle mistakes, as there WILL BE mistakes made. I always get the feeling that SPEWS doesn't give a hoot if there is a mistake (by the sheer fact that SPEWS doesn't have a contactable staff). They don't care if their list is flawed. They aren't forcing the list on anyone, admins use it at their own risk. Unfortunately, some admins may not know how SPEWS actually lists IP addresses and someone just tells them "We use SPEWS and we get hardly ANY spam!!" Hell, that admin's gonna say "Count me in!!", not knowing he might be filtering out legitimate email from legitimate hosts who are illegitimately listed (or not removed).

I fully understand what SPEWS is _trying_ to accomplish. And it's honestly a good idea. However, the way they are going about doing it is flawed.

allera and all anti-spews:

Tell us all now using your superior knoweledge of how SPEWS works,
Who is Blocking your email ???? is it SPEWS ??

If NO because that is the only correct answer , What have SPEWS done besides provide a list that others might at their own discretion use ??

I pose this question to anyone that thinks SPEWS is blocking their mail or servers!

Exposed

Originally posted by exposed
Who is Blocking your email ???? is it SPEWS ??
Na, it's not SPEWS blocking the email. It's the admins who use the SPEWS list. As I said (from the very first post I think), the SPEWS list is flawed because it is generated by a flawed system. In turn, admins who do not know how SPEWS actually lists addresses are using the list to filter out what they believe is spam. Unknowingly, there is also a very good chance that they are also blocking legitimate mail.

I could care less if our IP addresses are listed in SPEWS. I've said that before already. I really, honestly, do not care! Why? Because I feel SPEWS is flawed and if admins choose to use it blindly, they won't be getting mail from us. We have a good sized client base with some high-profile accounts. If those emails are blocked, those customers will contact the admin using the list and that list will be dropped. I have explained my stance to these customers and they understand my position. There have been a few customers (only!) that have had problems with us and SPEWS in the past. On all occassions I have explained the situation. I was told they would deal with it themselves. Now I find that our IP address has been removed, yet we still host the domain that got us on in the first place. How and why we got removed, I have no idea, nor do I care.

In case anyone cares about my stance on this specific matter (SPEWS, not SPAM), read my post here:

http://forums.focalhosting.com/viewtopic.php?t=114

We care a lot for our customers, and if any of them are unjustly accused of spam, we will defend them. If they are guilty of spam, we'll deal with them accordingly.

I'm unsubscribing from this thread now, so if you want to talk to me further about this, feel free to email me.

Enjoy the discussion.

I have been meaning to add ,

SPEWS State they can be contacted and suggest posting to NANAE's
If you follow the correct format

EG: SPEWS:S21XX Please review or SPAMMER Terminated or Mistake

Not

EG:my email is being blocked by SPEWS I am innocent !!

This is just inviting a lashing from the readers

Be certain that any thread posted in the correct format is investigated by SPEWS , So as they state in their FAQ , they can be contacted , but there is no need for them to contact you is there??

Also be certain that if a problem still remains the listing also remains!
From observation the listing seems to remain for as long after you make the contact as it took the listed domain to take the appropriate action
So you act quickly the listing is reviewed quickly!

Exposed

from exposed...allera and all anti-spews:...like me, you must buy your glasses at walgreens... either that or you're just a sloppy reader, or maybe so blinded by the "o yea, well what about this, then, wiseguy?!" rage that the logic of your perceived foes in this thread is lost...

..."allera and all anti-spews" should, in my humble opinion, be rephrased "allera and all anti self-imposed-authoritarian-secretive, seeking-glory-under-the-guise-of-public-service dictators"...

...when you agree to that phrasing, you can add me to that list ... from "someone"......as usual, if you or any of your anti-spews force are caught or killed, the secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions

I am a big supporter of spews, and it's easy to get off thier list. the rules are simple and easy. all you have to do is prove that you are going to do the work and then document your work to the news forum. has worked for me in the past. I just helped another web host get off of spews last month ( took a total of 6 weeks ) but he is clear to rock and roll.

Oh do I charge for the services, only on the jobs I take, how much? a return of a favor one day.

Originally posted by exposed
I have been meaning to add ,

SPEWS State they can be contacted and suggest posting to NANAE's
If you follow the correct format

EG: SPEWS:S21XX Please review or SPAMMER Terminated or Mistake

Not

EG:my email is being blocked by SPEWS I am innocent !!

This is just inviting a lashing from the readers

Be certain that any thread posted in the correct format is investigated by SPEWS , So as they state in their FAQ , they can be contacted , but there is no need for them to contact you is there??

Also be certain that if a problem still remains the listing also remains!
From observation the listing seems to remain for as long after you make the contact as it took the listed domain to take the appropriate action
So you act quickly the listing is reviewed quickly!

Exposed

DAMM RIGHT. Follow the rules and you are vanished from the list real fast

At some point I was considering using SPEWS and several other databases to filter spam on my servers (I get about 10 spams every hour on several webmaster accounts of mine alone). But after I learned that it blocks mail from innocent users, and even worse, actually makes a point out of it, holding innocent people hostage trying to force ISPs to deal with spam problem, I decided against it. In my opinion, the price of losing a single improtant mail is much higher than paying for the bandwidth consumed by the spam messages. Just my $0.02.

Originally posted by macb


Because my life does not revolve around ending spam as yours perhaps does.

I can pretty much assure you that mine doesn't either. I am, however, done playing around, which is why I feel that spews is right for me.

The problem is not with your motives. The problem is not with your technical abilities. The problem is that the SPEWS system ONLY works (if it works) at the expense of filtering a lot of legitimate mail. Some of us find that unacceptable, no matter how valid your motivations are.

I have no problem with that. Although I find your "molotov cocktail" analogy to be a bit inaccurate and over-the-top, it also appears that you at least have a basic grasp of how spews works, and have made your chioce accordingly.

Not everyone is going to like or accept spews and it's methods, and that is perfectly understandable. My beef is with those who go on the anti-spews crusade without having the slightest idea what they're talking about. The latter group is depressingly large, unfortunately.

-Bob

Originally posted by the-muse
..."allera and all anti-spews" should, in my humble opinion, be rephrased "allera and all anti self-imposed-authoritarian-secretive, seeking-glory-under-the-guise-of-public-service dictators"...

Dictators? Oh please... You are obviously under the misguided impression that spews is forcing their list down peoples' throats.

Once again, the spews list is willfully used by admins who do not want mail from listed systems/networks.

Please read the preceeding line over and over to yourself until it sinks in.

I can just count the seconds before someone types the word "nazi"....

-Bob

To show you an example of how bad SPEWS works, let me explain you my experience.

I have a customer who received Spam, she forwardered the email to SPEWS to report it, surpreselly enough was when I received a complain about that my customer were spamming :confused:

Yes, SPEWS took his email as spam because she forwardered the email to them to report the spam, I sent several emails to SPEWS trying to explain them about the situation but none answered me, after 1 week, I didn't bother anymore trying to contact them, I make my mind that they are useless

Originally posted by Jedito
I have a customer who received Spam, she forwardered the email to SPEWS to report it, surpreselly enough was when I received a complain about that my customer were spamming :confused:

Yes, SPEWS took his email as spam because she forwardered the email to them to report the spam, I sent several emails to SPEWS trying to explain them about the situation but none answered me, after 1 week, I didn't bother anymore trying to contact them, I make my mind that they are useless

That's very interesting, seeing as how spews does not have a contact address. If your customer said she contacted spews, she's either confused or lying.

Maybe she's confusing spews and spamcop?

From the spews faq:

"Q41: How does one contact SPEWS?
A41: One does not. SPEWS does not receive email - it's just an automated system and website,..."

On the other hand, if you have a contact address for spews, perhaps you could share it with the rest of us?

Thanks,
-Bob

she forwardered the email to admin and abuse@spew.org.

Probably that was her mistake, but even if she did a mistake sending the email to an incorrect email address, how can spew catalog it as Spam? when she only sent 1 email reporting spam

from tmx...My beef is with those who go on the anti-spews crusade without having the slightest idea what they're talking about. The latter group is depressingly large, unfortunately. ...another depressing thought (for some, not all) ... maybe that depressingly large group doesn't have the slightest idea what they're talking about because instinct and intuition rebels against societal watchdogs by reflex action... if only those watchdogs would take the hint and bow out gracefully...if i get killed for not wearing a motorcycle helmet, that's my choice, not yours... if it costs insurance companies an extra billion dollars a year in medical coverage, that means more jobs for emergency medical workers, doctors, nurses, undertakers, pharmaceutical companies, and even insurance workers... i'd rather put the helmet makers out of business than all those other good people...from sqposter...I just helped another web host get off of spews last month ( took a total of 6 weeks ) but he is clear to rock and roll. ...great sense of humor...only "6 weeks"... very funny... and just think, you could have been spending all that time hitting your email "delete" button...*wink* *wink*... i love humor... from tmx...Once again, the spews list is willfully used by admins who do not want mail from listed systems/networks. Please read the preceeding line over and over to yourself until it sinks in. ...oh, okay... right... i should then accept that "logically" spews is thereby dissociated from any of the responsibility of inconveniencing anyone... "here's a gun for your protection, but if you hurt somebody with it, don't blame me."from fatale...In my opinion, the price of losing a single improtant mail is much higher than paying for the bandwidth consumed by the spam messages. Just my $0.02.to tmx...Please read the preceeding line over and over to yourself until it sinks in.from the-muse......in conclusion, please don't construe any of the above as an indication that i know what i'm talking about... this post is for entertainment purposes only, and in no way guarantees the information is accurate, or that you will be entertained... edited: "nazis"<===such a tough crowd from which to evoke a giggle...(there you go, how many seconds?)...

Jedito: Again, SPEWS does not have email contacts, or servers. They never received your complaints. You're confused.

Originally posted by koan
Jedito: Again, SPEWS does not have email contacts, or servers. They never received your complaints. You're confused.


Koan how are you so sure of this do you work for Spews?

Just because they do not post it on their site as a point of contact dont mean they have no email what so ever.

Originally posted by koan
Jedito: Again, SPEWS does not have email contacts, or servers. They never received your complaints. You're confused.

Again, I SENT THEM SEVERAL EMAILS AND THEY DID NOT ANSWERED IT.

probably they do not answer emails, but the email didn't come bounced, so, they received it.

Originally posted by koan
Jedito: Again, SPEWS does not have email contacts, or servers. They never received your complaints. You're confused.

So the ball sacks at SPEWS communicate via Carrier Pidgins? I could have swore they have a web site and DB. Is that hosted on a piece of paper?

I use to participate in these SPEWS debates. But the SPEWS supporters are so blinded with stupidity and self-assuring back-patting, that they see no shades of gray.

We work with SPEWS through their "I am a scared little girl news group". So does our DC. So I have seen these posters before. There joy is waiting like jackals for a "new meat" host/ISP to ask why they are on SPEWS. They then flame and pleasure themselves in way that only a true perv to the fetish world would.

My point: you will never change the way these guys/girls are. Even if they are shut down.

Before some SPEWS tard comes by and says I support Spam, save it. We actually use ORDB and other anti-spam filters that work with host and ISPs. We do not like Spammers. We hate the SPEWS folks worse for their attitude and complete lack of understanding.

Good day. :cartman:

Originally posted by UmBillyCord


So the ball sacks at SPEWS communicate via Carrier Pidgins? I could have swore they have a web site and DB. Is that hosted on a piece of paper?

I use to participate in these SPEWS debates. But the SPEWS supporters are so blinded with stupidity and self-assuring back-patting, that they see no shades of gray.

We work with SPEWS through their "I am a scared little girl news group". So does our DC. So I have seen these posters before. There joy is waiting like jackals for a "new meat" host/ISP to ask why they are on SPEWS. They then flame and pleasure themselves in way that only a true perv to the fetish world would.

My point: you will never change the way these guys/girls are. Even if they are shut down.

Before some SPEWS tard comes by and says I support Spam, save it. We actually use ORDB and other anti-spam filters that work with host and ISPs. We do not like Spammers. We hate the SPEWS folks worse for their attitude and complete lack of understanding.

Good day. :cartman:
Hear hear. :D:agree:

Originally posted by UmBillyCord


So the ball sacks at SPEWS communicate via Carrier Pidgins? I could have swore they have a web site and DB. Is that hosted on a piece of paper?

I use to participate in these SPEWS debates. But the SPEWS supporters are so blinded with stupidity and self-assuring back-patting, that they see no shades of gray.

We work with SPEWS through their "I am a scared little girl news group". So does our DC. So I have seen these posters before. There joy is waiting like jackals for a "new meat" host/ISP to ask why they are on SPEWS. They then flame and pleasure themselves in way that only a true perv to the fetish world would.

My point: you will never change the way these guys/girls are. Even if they are shut down.

Before some SPEWS tard comes by and says I support Spam, save it. We actually use ORDB and other anti-spam filters that work with host and ISPs. We do not like Spammers. We hate the SPEWS folks worse for their attitude and complete lack of understanding.

Good day. :cartman:


:D

I guess Spews way of not getting spam is by just not having an email server.
Either way not having a contact email or number tells me they have no interest in truly helping in the spam fight.

If you trust your mail servers to a place with no contact info then hey that’s your biz, but think about all the normal emails that are getting blocked.
One might even be that your family member is sick and needs your help or somebody seeking your services.

Maybe what somebody should do is make a list of spews users and just block them the same way they like to block everybody. I think they may get the point when half the net is blocking the users of spews until they wise up and use a real service.

Of course all the spews users will say you have no right to block us, but we do have the same right to block you as much as spews creates lists that blocks innocent people that happen to be a neighbor to a spammer.

Originally posted by the-muse
from the-muse......in conclusion, please don't construe any of the above as an indication that i know what i'm talking about...

Your "just hit delete" mentality can pretty much assure there's no chance of that happening here.

-Bob

Originally posted by Paul L.
I guess Spews way of not getting spam is by just not having an email server.

They have several "spamtrap" servers.

Of course all the spews users will say you have no right to block us,

That's where you're wrong, Paul - spews users, probably more than anyone else, will respect your right to deny or accept traffic from whomever you wish. Your server(s), your rules. Simple.

Of course, if you'd rather make ridiculous assumptions based on hearsay, that's your business.

-Bob

IF SPEWS is so great why don't they use their own damn database to protect against spam, instead they have shutdown their mailserver and gone back to the stone ages as they do not even trust they own system to protect themselves from the very thing they claim to protect others against.

I that is'nt Hippocratic then what is?

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
So the ball sacks at SPEWS communicate via Carrier Pidgins? I could have swore they have a web site and DB. Is that hosted on a piece of paper?

Spews explicitly states that they do not accept email. It's common knowledge among anyone who takes the required two seconds to get off their fat, lazy asses and check it out for themselves.

-Bob

Why should I take 2 seconds on read their FAQs when they don't take 2 seconds on try to know if they are blacklisting an incorrect domain/ip?

Originally posted by SurfTurtle
IF SPEWS is so great why don't they use their own damn database to protect against spam, instead they have shutdown their mailserver and gone back to the stone ages as they do not even trust they own system to protect themselves from the very thing they claim to protect others against.

Are you still here? Why don't you tell everyone what we found out earlier today?

Here, I'll get things rolling with the short version:

Surfturtle hosted a well-known and prolific spammer and got spanked by spews. He booted the spammer, just as any responsible host would do, and now his spews listing is going away - just as it should. Of course, rather than suck it up and admit his mistake like a man, it appears he will continue to sing the "poor me" song.

I did a bit more checking this evening, and found this particular IP of Surfturtle's was implicated in a bit more than just the spam referenced by spews, mainly from july 2002. Furthermore, a Google Groups search on his company name turned up 35 hits in the spam newsgroups from February to September of this year, with the actual spam flowing from February to July.

Bottom line - the guy that started this whole thread has conned each and every one of you. However, since actual facts seem to matter so little to Surfturtle as well as a few others who have participated in this thread, all I can suggest at this point is for you to all get together and have a good cry over it.

Me, I just want the spam to stop. I will continue to do what works for me and my clients, just as you will continue to do what works for you and yours.


-Bob

Originally posted by Jedito
Why should I take 2 seconds on read their FAQs when they don't take 2 seconds on try to know if they are blacklisting an incorrect domain/ip?

Of course, why bother educating yourself on the subject at hand when you can just as easily argue from a position of ignorange.

-Bob

Educate myself? are you nuts? they are blacklisting email address incorrectly and I'm the one who must educated myself?.

Give me a break

Someone else pointed something out to me, and I thought it worth mentioning.


Dixiesys wrote:

it isn't SPEWS I fear, I can just setup a relay elsewhere and get around a spews listing for a little while if one of my customers manages to get me on it,

SurfTurtle wrote:

I just got an idea on how to get around the SPEWS problem. But this only works for Win2k HostingController based servers. They have the option of running the mailservers on another machine so that the Ips of the mailservers are different this way their mails can't be blocked by SPEWS.

The above examples are exactly what the spammers and spam-friendly hosts do when you block a single IP. If anyone still does not understand why netblocks get listed, now you do.


-Bob

Originally posted by TMX
Someone else pointed something out to me, and I thought it worth mentioning.


Dixiesys wrote:



SurfTurtle wrote:



The above examples are exactly what the spammers and spam-friendly hosts do when you block a single IP. If anyone still does not understand why netblocks get listed, now you do.


-Bob [/B]

That's what it happen also, when a crappy entity decided that you'll blacklisted because THEY considered that you're spam friendly host.

Originally posted by Jedito


That's what it happen also, when a crappy entity decided that you'll blacklisted because THEY considered that you're spam friendly host.

Whatever...you're the man. See ya'.

-B

I love the, "SPEWS doesn't block anyone, they just provide the list!" argument.

As if my posting instructions on how to make explosives is normal. Surely I wouldn't be responsible if someone used my 'how to create explosives to blow up gopher holes' directions to blow up other things.

As if you wouldn't deem me responsible for distributing buggy software for your computer if I just developed and offered a free download on my site. It frees up your ram and crashes your computer every hour. Hey, I just put it up for download, didn't I mention that it crashes your computer? I knew it did, but forgot to mention that. It also crashes your neighbor's computer in the cubicle next to you.

The people who make such a flawed list and offer it surely arent to blame.

I'm sorry but that's a patheitc excuse for something that is obviously flawed. If this worked so well, it shold be done and used at teh major networks level. It doesn't work, and this is why a SPEWS list will never be used by anyone who knows anything about stopping spam.

It is great in theory only, but the fact that it is impossible to execute when run so poorly makes it worthless, and the people who use the lists merely uneducated.

My analogies above? Just dribble. They don't mean anything. Only point was that when something you've created is used by many people then you have a responsibility to it. The '...but it's only a list...' bullfrog is ridiculous. Sure they don't force people to use it, but since people do use it and they know they do then one has to take responsibility for that. If you don't then you're just become another problem, not a real solution.

As someone said, look up those spammer's web sites -are they still up and active? Are the spammers dead? Have they actually stopped one spammer from spamming? Nope, they just forced them to move around a bit, which they are better at doing than any legit web site operator. Meanwhile they get IPs blocked.

I'm not saying that fighting spam is a bad thing, just that SPEWS doesn't solve one problem while creating another problem. So because of SPEWS we have spammers still and blocked legit email.

I know, they are just a list. They don't block it. I don't know what is more amazing. The fact that they are so irresponsible or the fact that so many think this is a viable way to reduce the spam problem?

Spam is bad.

This isn't a good way to solve the problem.

Something else is.

Figure it out and stop using lists that block legit mail.

Or is this the only way?

Anyway, I'm disgusted. you can't hope to educate everyone. Those who use the list will and think they are brilliant and helping out, solving the problem.

If even one person sees this thread and realizes how stupendously idiotic it is to use such a list, then I'll be happy. If another sees this thread and has enough intelligence to understand how problematic and irresponsible it is to distribute and use this list, and enough intelligence to come up with a viable way to help the problem without creating other problems, then even better.

Thank goodness I think for myself and don't just use lists that block people's mail because I can. Thank goodness I know that I am responsible for the things I do and distribute. Thank goodness.

It's a faulty product that doesn't work and creates another problem. In the retail world, this product would be recalled. Too bad the perople responsible for this list (and I say that with a grain of salt), don't have the guts to present both sides of the issue on their site for users to make an educated decision.

Any way, it is like arguing over something that is so obvious that you wonder why you're wasting your time. Get the list, install it on your server even though you know it blocks legit mail and have no control over what it blocks and who it blocks. Defend the list to everyone who knows better. Start an unlimted bandwidth and space host.

This could go on and on for pages... "They're great! Really! No really... I mean it... really now... seriously.. c'mon.... they are.... really..." but I think I'll kill myself if I have to read another post.

I'm going to go talk to this box of nails over here for a bit.