HTML Frames [Archive] - Web Hosting Talk

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txitcs

03-24-2009, 01:24 PM

I absolutely hate frames and avoid if at all possible, but for a particular project I'm working on the client wants frames and all attempts to change his mind have failed.

So it left me in a hard spot, I'm no good with frames...

Can anyone tell me how to do verical and horizontal frames together?

I need something like:

------------------
frame 1
------------------
f |
r |
a | frame 3
m |
e |--------------
2 | frame 4
------------------

Except Frame 2 should be a straight line and not all crooked. :)

suryagaadu

03-24-2009, 04:15 PM

bob8514

03-25-2009, 08:44 AM

Don't forget to use the <noframes> elements which permit to display anoter content if the user can't use frame

ArcticRaiders

03-25-2009, 11:20 PM

What is his reasoning why he wants to use frames instead of something like say divs or phps include?

CorvetteX

04-04-2009, 01:51 PM

txitcs

04-04-2009, 02:01 PM

You are the designer, not your client. There are reasons why tables & frames are no longer used. Maybe your client use to design back in the Geocities days and thinks he is "helping you out" but times have changed. Stick to programming based on current standards, they exist for good reason.

Explain to him that ignoring the standards could have the following consequences:

- Browser incompatibility
- Mobile device incompatibility
- Assisted device incompatibility
- Search engine penalization or not being listed at all
- Converting the layout a year from now when he realizes his mistake means he will being paying twice or you'll get stuck doing it for free.
- Future problems because of depreciation of old elements & tags

Who knows what technology will be released in the near future, but you can be sure that it will be made based on current standards. If you follow standards, his site will work without modification, on any newly released technology or devices(or very little modification.)

Further more, you don't want his framed site to reflect your quality of work. He tells a friend that you designed his website, his friend notices it's all frames, and notes to himself never to use your services.

I explained to him why frames are no good. For his project, mobile devices and search engines are useless anyway because everything is behind a very secure front end, as it's medical software. It's purely for doctor's viewing eyes only.

For what he needs after checking it out, I'd actually agree that frames are the best way to go. It's a dicom viewer with 50+ images on the left bar and he needs to be able to scroll down and view the thumbnails, while still having the actual viewer in eye sight.

You are right though, he is the client. You can try and tell clients and give them the best reasoning in the world, but if they are persistent in what they want, you give them what they want and you don't argue with them.

Tristan Perry

04-04-2009, 02:03 PM

You are the designer, not your client. There are reasons why tables & frames are no longer used. Maybe your client use to design back in the Geocities days and thinks he is "helping you out" but times have changed. Stick to programming based on current standards, they exist for good reason.

Explain to him that ignoring the standards could have the following consequences:

- Browser incompatibility
- Mobile device incompatibility
- Assisted device incompatibility
- Search engine penalization or not being listed at all
- Converting the layout a year from now when he realizes his mistake means he will being paying twice or you'll get stuck doing it for free.
- Future problems because of depreciation of old elements & tags

Who knows what technology will be released in the near future, but you can be sure that it will be made based on current standards. If you follow standards, his site will work without modification, on any newly released technology or devices(or very little modification.)

Further more, you don't want his framed site to reflect your quality of work. He tells a friend that you designed his website, his friend notices it's all frames, and notes to himself never to use your services.
It's up to the client regarding what he wants. I agree that using frames make it harder, but it's not up to the designer to dictate what his clients can do and what they want.

If I go into a shop and try buying a red jumper (not that I wear jumpers), I'd walk straight back out if they refused and tried giving me a green hoodie, etc.

It's the same here.

You're right about the last point however - you may lose future business by using frames. However that's an entirely different point altogether. (Plus you could also use CSS/XHTML and have a really bad design and lose business that way)

CorvetteX

04-04-2009, 02:09 PM

If I were in your position, I'd do something fancy with AJAX with the sidebar so that you can keep the viewer in site. Maybe you can do something cool with some sort of Lightbox? He may not realize what you can do with user-interface these days. You can implement AJAX relatively easy using a framework such as Jquery, Mootools, Dojo, or Prototype.

I personally wouldn't design anything that I couldn't be proud of. I want to be able to add it to my portfolio, even if it's behind a login, you can still show screenshots to future clients.

Besides, it's not very fun designing as if it was 1992. I program because I love it, and pushing the abilities of the latest technology is what keeps me motivated every day.

If I go into a shop and try buying a red jumper (not that I wear jumpers), I'd walk straight back out if they refused and tried giving me a green hoodie, etc.

If I owned that shop, I'd sell you a red hoodie just like you wanted. But as a customer you wouldn't dictate how it was made. If you don't like that they are made in China, you go somewhere else. The owner of the shop isn't going to change their whole business plan for a single hoodie.

There is always "that guy" who will bend over backwards for their client and they are the same people that get taken advantage of or don't get paid enough for what they are doing. You don't want to be "that guy".

If you can create some fancy AJAX that is standards compliant and works on 56 different browsers & mobile devices, and functions EXACTLY the same or BETTER than frames, then what does it matter to your client?

You made this thread to essentially better understand frames. Time is money. Why learn something you may never use again? Your time could be better spent learning innovative, emerging programming techniques/frameworks.

Tristan Perry

04-04-2009, 02:53 PM

If I owned that shop, I'd sell you a red hoodie just like you wanted. But as a customer you wouldn't dictate how it was made. If you don't like that they are made in China, you go somewhere else. The owner of the shop isn't going to change their whole business plan for a single hoodie.

There is always "that guy" who will bend over backwards for their client and they are the same people that get taken advantage of or don't get paid enough for what they are doing. You don't want to be "that guy".

If you can create some fancy AJAX that is standards compliant and works on 56 different browsers & mobile devices, and functions EXACTLY the same or BETTER than frames, then what does it matter to your client?

You made this thread to essentially better understand frames. Time is money. Why learn something you may never use again? Your time could be better spent learning innovative, emerging programming techniques/frameworks.
You've got me convinced - I do essentially agree with you.

I still think it's up to the client, although I personally would think twice before hiring such a client - but mainly since I wouldn't want to be associated with using frames.

Although I guess if it's behind a private system, probably used by people who are using IE6 and would never access it via a mobile device, I wouldn't mind too much about using frames (apart from the fact that I don't know anything about using frames :D )

txitcs

04-04-2009, 04:32 PM

If I were in your position, I'd do something fancy with AJAX with the sidebar so that you can keep the viewer in site. Maybe you can do something cool with some sort of Lightbox? He may not realize what you can do with user-interface these days. You can implement AJAX relatively easy using a framework such as Jquery, Mootools, Dojo, or Prototype.

I personally wouldn't design anything that I couldn't be proud of. I want to be able to add it to my portfolio, even if it's behind a login, you can still show screenshots to future clients.

Besides, it's not very fun designing as if it was 1992. I program because I love it, and pushing the abilities of the latest technology is what keeps me motivated every day.

If I owned that shop, I'd sell you a red hoodie just like you wanted. But as a customer you wouldn't dictate how it was made. If you don't like that they are made in China, you go somewhere else. The owner of the shop isn't going to change their whole business plan for a single hoodie.

There is always "that guy" who will bend over backwards for their client and they are the same people that get taken advantage of or don't get paid enough for what they are doing. You don't want to be "that guy".

If you can create some fancy AJAX that is standards compliant and works on 56 different browsers & mobile devices, and functions EXACTLY the same or BETTER than frames, then what does it matter to your client?

You made this thread to essentially better understand frames. Time is money. Why learn something you may never use again? Your time could be better spent learning innovative, emerging programming techniques/frameworks.

Overall I agree with you. I'd rather not mess with frames, but I'm going to give this client what he wants. This client alone has made me close to $55k in the last 6 months.

This isn't a clothing store. Developers make the project based on the client's specifications. I tried to navigate away from using frames, but he was persistent and I'm not going to tell a client to go find another programmer just because he wants me to use frames on one project.

Now like I said, I do agree with you to an extent. But if I have a single client that's keeping my business afloat, allowing me to keep employees for this and other various projects...I'm not going to run him off because he wants something done a way that I don't necessarily agree with.

CorvetteX

04-04-2009, 05:54 PM

Under the circumstances I can see why you would just do it in frames to keep him happy.

However, if you really wanted to impress him, you could show him what the latest technology could do for him. Granted you'd be doing double the work (his frames version and an ajax version), if he ends up loving it you would have a customer for life and he might generate a lot of buzz about your company and how you knocked his socks off. If he doesn't like it, you have a frames version waiting for him just incase. Just putting some ideas in your head that might come in handy :)

I always go above & beyond for my good clients/partners and it has paid off in the end. Building strong relationships by doing more than you have to builds an (almost)unbreakable trust.