Do you think its wrong to expose hosting companies.

For instance:

Based on Tims Findings; are main site is on Alabanza, but most of our servers are either in AWD, or going into a neutral fiber facility.

So if A company is a reseller and a inquiry is made, is it wrong to expose the true identity.

Feed Back on this one.

You people are great here

Joe

hmm..

What do you mean exposing..

Like are they a reseller. What is a reseller?

Is a reseller just someone that sells space on a server, or someone that doesn't pay 30k/month to lay lines and have a t3?

Example:


Company XYZ claims to be a host

You trace to Company ABC who is a big host.

Is exposing this bad, and or should be done.

Or let the end user, the prospective client find that out.

Joe

Originally posted by JBIZ718
Do you think its wrong to expose hosting companies.

For instance:

Based on Tims Findings; are main site is on Alabanza, but most of our servers are either in AWD, or going into a neutral fiber facility.

So if A company is a reseller and a inquiry is made, is it wrong to expose the true identity.

Feed Back on this one.

You people are great here

Joe

Joe, I beg of you, please learn to spell "OUR"! :-) I don't believe I 'exposed' anything, and you're not making much sense. Don't say you're not a reseller, if you are. People will know and "expose" that if you're talking down about resellers. Don't belittle people that are, if you are one and think you can hide the fact that you are one. Don't make claims that are not true, it's obvious and easy to find out. Don't make a fool of yourself by committing such acts and you don't have to worry about being "exposed". Nontheless, we've gone through this already:

http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=7156

Thanks for playing. :-)

Originally posted by JBIZ718
Do you think its wrong to expose hosting companies.Who would you -- or your hypothetical person who might decide to do so -- plan to "expose" such information to? You mean point it out here? Trust me, nobody will care -- of all the hundreds of people who have come through here, you, or your IS person, are the first I've ever seen propose that "resellers" don't have credibility in discussion the issues of the "industry." For that matter, you're among a very small minority who even consider and refer to those companies housed at places like VDI and Alabanza as "resellers."

I'd be pretty confident that if you were to "expose" such people, or even those meeting the more common definition of the term reseller, here, the response would vary between "so what?" and "shut up."

Now, if you're proposing maybe picketing in front of the homes of those bozos who, whether colocated or resellers, have sites with faked pictures of buildings with their company names billboard-like superimposed through some clumsy Photoshop editing and claim on those sites to be one of the major players in the hosting world while they have in fact only a few dozen or a couple of hundred clients; well then, brother, I'll lend you my megaphone.

Originally posted by JayC
Originally posted by JBIZ718
Do you think its wrong to expose hosting companies.Who would you -- or your hypothetical person who might decide to do so -- plan to "expose" such information to? You mean point it out here? Trust me, nobody will care -- of all the hundreds of people who have come through here, you, or your IS person, are the first I've ever seen propose that "resellers" don't have credibility in discussion the issues of the "industry." For that matter, you're among a very small minority who even consider and refer to those companies housed at places like VDI and Alabanza as "resellers."

I'd be pretty confident that if you were to "expose" such people, or even those meeting the more common definition of the term reseller, here, the response would vary between "so what?" and "shut up."

Now, if you're proposing maybe picketing in front of the homes of those bozos who, whether colocated or resellers, have sites with faked pictures of buildings with their company names billboard-like superimposed through some clumsy Photoshop editing and claim on those sites to be one of the major players in the hosting world while they have in fact only a few dozen or a couple of hundred clients; well then, brother, I'll lend you my megaphone.



So... like... I've just wasted $300 buying photoshop and time lifting pictures of Verio's NOC? Oh great... :-(

First of All Im not a reseller.

Let clearify this. I do own my own machines, and colocate my servers.

Was I a reseller, YES. I do give you that.

This should have nothing to do with previous conversations.

This is a new topic.

To try to piss Tim off, I will continue to miss use the word

OUR

I realize this will make me look stupid. I also realize that it will piss Tim off.

Originally posted by JBIZ718
his should have nothing to do with previous conversations.

This is a new topic. It seems somewhat naive to come new into a forum, insult half the regulars, behave generally boorishly, and expect that all to be forgotten a few minutes later because you started a new topic.

Maybe it could happen, but how about at least starting a topic that might contain some actual constructive information? How about perhaps reading some of the existing threads and sharing some of the knowledge you have about the industry and technical issues? That might help to rebuild some credibility; the topic you began here seems unlikely to do anything but create more controversy.

If that -- more controversy -- wasn't your intent, I can only say again: naive.

Originally posted by JBIZ718
To try to piss Tim off, I will continue to miss use the word

OUR

I realize this will make me look stupid. I also realize that it will piss Tim off.



That's not the only thing that makes you look stupid.

In regards to helping out.

Carlos started a thread in regards to Colo.com.

I offered some guidence on that one.

Also supplying the entire forum with the URL

http://www.fiberloop.com

Which will help hosting people find Neutral Facilities in there area to colocate there servers.

I might add a little controversy on some topics, but I think I added some positive and rather critical information about some facilities.

Joe

Hmm... fiberloop.com seems to be down. I can't reach it from my office, and a traceroute from Yahoo! returns "unknown host."

Isn't "Fiber Loops" a breakfast cereal? :D

I think you should add to the discussions. What I mean is that most of the people here aren't out to 'expose' other companies, or to put down others. It's annoying and it makes everyone look bad.

There have been a couple of hosts here who chime in when bad luck has befallen another host with somewhat snide remarks. What is interesting is that when *they* have had problems, the other hosts don't chime in with remarks.

I think it seperates people and companies.

If someone comes to the board saying they are something they are not, and you know otherwise, then it seems reasonable to offer input. I don't expose resellers for the fun of it.

There was a host that posted an ad in the Advertsing Forum recently who was 'exposed' you might say, for having servers at *****.

Obviously the person posting didn't care for ***** servers, nor did the second reply to the information, but you must learn to handle yourself accordingly.

The host's reply to this was as if everyone should love ***** (and unless you've been living in a cave, you'd know this simply isn't true).

There is nothing wrong with being a reseller for another host, but if someone points it out, I would think it would be in your best interest to acknowledge that you are a reseller and put a positive spin on it (touting the benefits of going with you, over the actual host, etc.)

Anyway, what the heck am I writing about again?

[Edited by Chicken on 03-19-2001 at 09:20 PM]

Very well.

I just asked a question?

So thanks for the reply.

Joe

http://www.fiberloops.com

Also try:

http://www.boardwatch.com

Sorry, forgot the S

Joe

Can I ask what the difference between co-locating servers at VDI and co-locating servers at another NOC is? How does that make someone a reseller? If I put my servers at a local ISP and I reselling for them?

-Brendan

That kinda depends.

I guess there are very few true hosts then.

UUNET, Genuity, etc.

Im not sure what to even call myself. I know we are going to be Tier 2, but I dont even know if that has a name.

Kinda got me guessin

Joe

Originally posted by JBIZ718
To try to piss Tim off, I will continue to miss use the word

OUR

I realize this will make me look stupid. I also realize that it will piss Tim off.



Wow, you actually think I get emotionally upset and pissed off because you can't spell? Geez, don't you know when you're being made fun of? Sorry, I don't want to hurt your feelings, (wait, yes I do), but you're just not that important to me anymore! You see, I got a pet... I don't need you anymore!

anyone out here heard of, practice what you preach?

It is interesting that someone would want to "knock" or "expose" resellers.
Even in the simplest terms, a reseller sells hosting space on someone else's server and makes a little money (40%) for doing it. The server owner gets more customers (and money) and the reseller gets his start in the business.
Whether the original server's name is on the web site or the reseller sets up his own name is irrevelant (a rose by any other name...). What matters is service after the sale and resellers can provide that when the the server owner gets so big that he can't offer personal responses.
In car sales, we buy from "resellers" all of the time. If the product and service is shoddy, whether they are the manufacturer or the reseller, that company can go under.
Most server owners offer and look for quality resellers.
Bottom line... you're in the business to make money and having resellers under you can make you more money and help give the customer quality service.
If you're not in it to make money, then I want 500MB with all the trimmings for free and no banner ads!

But let's get to the root of the problem (the true evil):
Resellers get their stuff from dedicated or co-located server owners. DC/CL server owners get their equipment from NOC's. So... It's the NOC's who are at fault for renting space/servers that allow "resellers" to flourish
or
maybe that's the whole idea to begin with, Create a product and let everyone else do the work for you.
And that is the Reality of the situation.

Wow, I feel so awful. Since 1995 I've been reselling the services of another company. Yes, it's true. I confess!!! The interesting thing is that nobody cared. The just knew that their web site was up and running and they were happy.

The funny thing is, I think that the company that I was reselling for was a reseller but I'd never bothered to check. Even today, I still have some sites with them and I don't know, don't care.

I've mended my ways. I went to Alabanza and became a host... or not. If I lease a server and don't own the NOC am I a crummy reseller? And what of the resellers that use my server. Oh, my! We all have to come out of the closet and confess before the world.

Maybe, since we're finally being open about this widespread problem there's some government program or charity that will give us money because of our minority status. I know I deserve some entitlement from someone.

Thomas, I love your domain name.
But then, is it really your domain name or do you rent it from someone and have to pay a yearly fee?
Geez, I think the real plan was for all of us to go crazy and quit "the industry" and then JB/st (whatever) can move in and grab all of the reseller business (oops, dirty word).
Maybe Tim can recommend a therapist.

Originally posted by historian
Maybe Tim can recommend a therapist. [/B]

Sorry, but no. I've just convinced this one that I'm non-violent and to allow sessions out in the wilderness with no one else around... and I get to carry a big ol' knife! (neato) and I'm not going to have you nuts ruin it for me! Bwahahaahahaa!!

Originally posted by historian
It is interesting that someone would want to "knock" or "expose" resellers.


Actually, it's not at all interesting. The issue at hand, was this person was saying how resellers were not real, not qualified, and liars. I "exposed" the fact that this person saying this was a reseller, used someone else's network (which he/she claimed was a no no), etc. This is where we all found the humor.


Even in the simplest terms, a reseller sells hosting space on someone else's server and makes a little money (40%) for doing it. The server owner gets more customers (and money) and the reseller gets his start in the business.


And, to go further, even if it's someone else's network or server. But, we don't want to confuse people and make them think resellers on shared servers have as much control as they might need or be assumed to have, or the control issue and billing of the server owner, whereas two more people need to pay bills for the server and then the hosting on a network, or your site could go down. It does happen.


Whether the original server's name is on the web site or the reseller sets up his own name is irrevelant (a rose by any other name...).


Well, not really. Many people make no effort to let people know it's not their server. And, in many cases, that person could just get a better deal from the server owner that the reseller is getting their plan from/through and making more off the client of their's. In fact, at that point, many resellers do little else, other than just use their control panel for their reseller account and fill in a few fields and press a button to confirm the set up. They don't likely provide any additional or superior service that could be done if they did own said web servers. They don't have the control to make decisions or changes for the client, without the server owners consent. This can get bad. However, that's not to say that all resellers are lazy and don't know how to or don't do anything. But, this is more common than not, since you mentioned it.

Some resellers can offer direct support for the client, whereas a direct email to the server owner might take a long time, whereas the reseller knows how the system works. Also, resellers can offer some things or help, or support or programming or design, etc. that the client will need help with and can offer it at lower rates, beyond reselling the same plans for a profit to the client, that the client would be charged more, more likely, from the server owner. So, there are things, but mainly just having someone else assist to a greater degree and possibly for cheaper, than they'd get from the server owner.


What matters is service after the sale and resellers can provide that when the the server owner gets so big that he can't offer personal responses.


Exactly, but the fact that they don't own a server, for example and don't have the control, this can also cause delays, confusion and problems that could have been avoided with a direct contact of the server owner. This is possible too. But, sure, for the client, there are advantages and disadvantages, depending on whom they are dealing with and whom the server owner might be and what they might do, know, allow or disallow, etc.


In car sales, we buy from "resellers" all of the time.


This doesn't compare well at all.


If the product and service is shoddy, whether they are the manufacturer or the reseller, that company can go under.


I'll stop you right there and comment; A car is a car, is a car, is a car... The manufacturer does most of the work and the dealer does little else but sell the same product for a profit. This rarely improves the function of a car and rarely results in any other type of problems or service, other than you can't get a car services at the manufacturer and the seller on the lot might very well be whom keeps it running. The manufacturer (the server owner in this case) is always involved in how the product functions, not the reseller. So, there is a direct result from the server owner that can't be replaced, whereas a car is nothing to do with the maker once it's shipped to a lot. Whereas, a reseller can possibly offer a service that the server owner can not, whereas a lot will do for a car they have sold.

Just like you said, so not only do you risk the server owner not running a business well and the resellers and the reseller's client's lose, but you effectively double your chances. The more middle-man issues involved, the more risky it is, especially in the web hosting business. Backbone provider -> NOC -> (Datacenter, if it's not in a NOC) -> server owner -> reseller -> (possibly a reseller of that reseller) -> client -> (possibly that client hosts sites as well). Each link matters and we all know the strongest link in the chain theory.


Most server owners offer and look for quality resellers.


I'm not familiar with that policy by any web server I've ever seen. It's not likely a concern or the business or a web host, to judge whom would be a good reseller, as long as they are reasonable and non-abusive in using the service, they can and will resell accounts to other people, which they decide about. Web hosts have never cared how quality a reseller is, unless they are a liability. Certainly some might, but I've never seen one, because that's not a judgement call most are allowed to make.


Bottom line... you're in the business to make money and having resellers under you can make you more money and help give the customer quality service.


True. And, it also goes both ways. It can help with problems, or create problems. However, it's open to being a risk of it creating more, by the link-in-chain theory.


If you're not in it to make money, then I want 500MB with all the trimmings for free and no banner ads!


I'm in it for money, but in the most effective and reasonable, fair and "stable" manner. But, I never argued people should start with the most they can afford, if they can even afford it. Most people are fine with being a client of a resold, resellers client of a server on a data center at a noc on a backbone, but some aren't. I'm simply saying, that there are some minor to major differences, which may or may not be an issue, depending on the server, noc, backbone, reseller, other reseller, client, client of a reseller's client, or not.


But let's get to the root of the problem (the true evil):
Resellers get their stuff from dedicated or co-located server owners.


Yes, and problems can exist. I don't see it as true evil, but. :-)


DC/CL server owners get their equipment from NOC's.


Yes, but the difference between owning, controlling and making decisions and the freedom of running your own server, has definite, uncompariable and undeniable advantages, more than anything else you or I could possibly list... and this is a major difference in far too many aspects to dare try and list.


So... It's the NOC's who are at fault for renting space/servers that allow "resellers" to flourish


No, not NOC's, but possibly resellers and it depends on how they represent themselves and the situation.


or maybe that's the whole idea to begin with, Create a product and let everyone else do the work for you.
And that is the Reality of the situation.


Well, I think anything can be put that simply, but assuming that's just the order in which the world turns, isn't quite covering the issues well, since there are many, many issues that you didn't mention, or possibly know about or consider. Nonetheless, I still don't expect people can or will pay a lot of money for their own server, just to host a small number of sites. I don't expect collocation people to get their own data center to host their larger, but still not large enough to justify a data center client's. I don't expect a data center to get their own lines to host so-many servers, when they can put their data center in a NOC, or hooked up to a NOC. Not many people can be a NOC and there's not really that many true large NOC's around, when it comes down to it. Let's be reasonable all around about it, and acknowledge that there are still some major differences in just one of those steps, if not most or all of them.

I... resell things. I buy them and then sell them to others at prices that allow me to buy more things. It's a visious cycle. I tried to go legit by leasing my own server but that doesn't seem to have done it. So I issue this warning to you all.

Here is a list of things that I don't own but I am selling to people, I'm sure there are other things but they just didn't come to mind:

Web Hosting, server space, programs, etc. and the means of delivering this service.

The communcations lines that the data travels on. This includes phone systems, fiber optic lines and satalites.

A Network Operations Center. Including the ceiling tiles, employees, their desks, and their office supplies. I guess you could extend this to their homes and cars.

The electricity to power the NOC. Power lines, high tension wires, Nuclear power plants, coal burning power plants etc. Though I can't take credit for anything Californian except Solar power which extends my reach of reselling the sun.

The land that the data & electricity travels over, along with the sea.

I probably am reselling the moon and the stars but haven't found a link.

If anyone tries to expose me, I'll just shut them off. YOU'VE BEEN WARNED.

Bwwwahahahahahahaha!!!

I actually don't think the car dealer analogy is that far off. You can't buya car directly from the manufacturer (even if you buy it off their site, you will be refered to a dealer eventually).

I can't think of one thing in my apartment that I didn't or don't buy from a reseller. All my electronics, my furniture, books, phone service, etc. Pretty much everything.

Originally posted by Chicken
I can't think of one thing in my apartment that I didn't or don't buy from a reseller. All my electronics, my furniture, books, phone service, etc. Pretty much everything.

And it's mine all mine!!! Please take good care of it. Oh and have you seen my car keys?

That was my point about the car. Ford makes a car, these cars go to dealers. Some dealers are big, some are small. Some dealers buy from other dealers and there are always other middle men. Sometimes you get better sales and service from a small dealer who gets a lot of his stock from a bigger dealer because he's small and local. If you don't like one dealer, you can go to another and buy the same Ford car.
Same thing with resellers, same package, smaller company, personal service. Others might like dealing with big companies, that why all different types (big and small) can succeed. Everyone has to start somewhere.
BTW, Tim, the "evil" line was a joke. No one ever gets my jokes on any of these forums.
And do I get a prize for living through Tim picking my post apart? :)


I feel a lot of love in this room.

Originally posted by historian
BTW, Tim, the "evil" line was a joke. No one ever gets my jokes on any of these forums.
And do I get a prize for living through Tim picking my post apart? :)


I feel a lot of love in this room.


[/B]

No, you must now die!!! I guess I don't make my responses clear that I understood the humor. (*spoon*) I recognized it, and I actually agreed with some things you said, just stating some of the differences too. (*spoon*) I wasn't picking it apart, just covering each aspect. Sorry if it seemed any different, but I'm nuts, as you know. :-) (*spoon*)... Anyway, with a reseller selling a product, you get the product, it's not an ongoing service that will continually involve the involvement of the manufacturer at all times, as a server would. That is a product or hardware, where something can fail, in service from the highest level, of the product itself. Any person along those lines can do something wrong, bad or not at all and not work with the lower level client's as it goes down the food chain. What is the server owner puts in a cheap drive, because they can? All you as a resold client or a reseller can do, is move.

It's more like a house rental analogy, than a product and simple service you can get anywhere... whereas it comes down to having to move, and all the hassles and problems that can come with it, instead of a choice to move a house, since it's not your house to move, remodel, hang pictures on the walls if you want, etc. without the experess permission from the highest level, being the owner of the server. You might not be able to function well in that environment, because you have to have someone build something for you, set it up, or whatever. With a car, you're free to do this yourself, you're free to go elsewhere for the continued service. You have a choice, after the purchase... you don't have that choice online, with someone else's server. I suppose I could explain that better, but I don't see that car thing as a very workable analogy.

I like the house analogy better.

I guess the object of are "OUR" discussion has left the building.

It must be okay for resellers far and wide to come out of shadows and not fear exposure any longer.

And since you don't need that photshop program and pics, can you send them my way?

Keith

It must be the water.

Originally posted by historian
I like the house analogy better.

I guess the object of are "OUR" discussion has left the building.

It must be okay for resellers far and wide to come out of shadows and not fear exposure any longer.

And since you don't need that photshop program and pics, can you send them my way?

Keith

It must be the water.

Why don't I create a collage of exaggerated NOC's no one can possibly compare to? *L* And, I never personally had any opinion about someone being a reseller, other than opinions I kept to myself, until that user was saying those things and actually hiding the fact that he was one. I think, as usual, I took the joke too far... Damn my disorder!