After reading through alot of the posts from hosting companies or providers, you all make me laugh.

I personally have nothing to do with the hosting industry.

I do understand the fiber obtic industry. Most of you companies have no idea what really makes your industry even work, let alone even own your own servers, and even then know what to do with them.

If its not Alabanza, then VDI, then who knows. Most of you are simply resellers trying to cash in.

If you did it the right way, get a server. Park it a neutral fiber obtic facility. Get some equipment, a router, switch and a hub. And then when your equipment fails blame yourself.

All these companies that go down because of hardware issues, work very hard to keep your 50 or so clients that you rip off, happy, and when something does go wrong you slam them on a board like this.

Get into the Real.

Well, this has some good points, but those will unfortunately be overshadowed by the generalizations and insults. You make some good points, except for the, "...clients that you rip off" ending, which I disagree with.

My position on the whole matter is this.

I am fully aware that VDI had a huge router problem.

I imagine that VDI was fully aware of it, and probably quite upset, as I imagine there clients are.

Most of these people just dont understand. Everyone wants to point the finger at someone, and its just annoying.

Then you've got tons of other great hosting companies out there. Im not talking about you resellers. Im talking about the real players, the ones who brought the market to where it is. The innovaters, the true hosting companies.

It bothers me, when all of these resellers, not just on this board, but others slam these companies.

For all you people that are hosting the right way, my praise. For the ones that are not, stop blaming others, blame yourself.

Get a Rack, get a router, get a switch, get a hub, and finally get a Server.

When that is all said and done, then call yourself a hosting company.

Until then, your just lieing to everyone.

i had a switch, a router, a hub, and even a connection which you didnt mention, but because i didnt have a rack it all sat on the floor and i spilled soda on it and it all stopped working.

I did mention the Rack, but did forget the connection.

Well, the issue at hand, was specifically a NOC, with their own connection, switch/router, etc. It doesn't matter whom owns the server and if it was them with their own equipment they owned personally, that'd not have helped the situation at all, since it's apparently an issue of the upstream provider(s)? So, it costs more for people to set up and they end up with the same problem anyway.

However, I do know what you're saying and people that do collocation have to deal with problems from within the NOC's network, as well as that NOC's upstream provider, effectively doubling their chances of disaster. But, that's not so common either, it's a lot of money to do, and few, few, few, few, few, few, few people actually have the hosting knowledge to actually do all the networking, etc. to do it all themselves. It's rare enough people know how to properly run a web host, so I guess that's that you're saying, in essence?

However, for the people that do know, and don't want to or can't spend all the money it takes to do on their own, they have to start somewhere -- at least to build a client base showcasing their abilities and knowledge and service, until they get enough profit to justify and pay for at least a better portion of the costs to do it all themselves. Personally, the only thing that stopped me from doing hosting myself, was that cost and that I didn't want to deal with a middle-man and collocate. However, that's more money then I care to put into it, just to try and build a client base and make enough money to justify it to myself. So, I've considered on doing collocation for a short time, because not dealing with someone else's NOC is certainly desirable, but spending that kind of money initially, isn't.

Of course, there's not much else for a choice otherwise, is there, if you want to do it the best way you can. Collocation isn't that bad, just as long as they don't claim or act like they are at their own NOC, I don't see it as lying. Of course, a lot of resellers and collocation people do slap pictures of data centers on their site's, which is funny. Realistically though, not many people are too concerned, as long as they know the NOC side are qualified and good/quality, and the people running said server are good on their end to, it can come out the same way, and sometimes better, if each portion excels at their part of the function. The same goes for who runs the lines to where you locate your own server at too though, just not as the same full aspect, of course. So, depending, it can be a lot of extra money for the same service, just to do it yourself... even if most people want to.

I think you have missed the point.

The co-locaters are at least trying. There moving in that direction, to be true.

Its the one who lack knowledge. Who dont prepare. Who pass blame.

If you are a reseller, then well you dont have any idea. If you colocate, you are progressing.

I realize hardware is expensive. If you cant afford the game, then dont play it.

I due understand that resellers have a role in the hosting world, but knowledge is power.

You should learn a business, before you do it. There are so many fake hosting companies out there. Take this forum.

If I ran tracers on most of the hosts on here, what percentage are resellers. 50%, 75%

I mean come on.

Get into the Real, and learn whats really going on.

I didn't "miss the point" at all. I, in fact, agreed with you. I just don't think you cliarified it as being specifically in regards to "resellers". If that's the case, I completely support your contention in regards to your comments.

After reading what you said, you are right.

Its not really just about them.

Its the whole market, you know.

Example:

You got the big public hosting companies. Then you got the solid private ones.

Those companies are the innovaters, the ones who have created a market for the colocaters and resellers, but yet the ones who know the littlest about fiberobtics, peering, and NOC's are the first to pass blame when there 50 or so clients go down.

Its very frustrating.

If I am making a big deal about this. I do have a vested investment into a hosting company that is launching soon. They are at least going to be a Tier 2 company. They will be in a neutral fiber facility, so will be using there own equipment, and be directly linked right off the backbone.

I read these boards, and it just is upsetting. There is so much more involved then a server and a ethernet connection.

I think there's enough people that will agree. It is discouraging, disappointing, frustrating and offensive to see some people try and pass themselves off as being a good hosting company, when they don't know how to do anything and don't own anything. They rent someone else's server, someone else sets it up for them and then all they do themselves, is use some control panel to set up people that send them money and do little to nothing else. That's not a service. However, that's also not solving the problem either, just to shell out more money and actually own the equipment.

I guess what I'm saying is, I've seen a lot (and I mean A LOT) or people start up their own stuff, their own data center, etc. and have no idea still. They pay someone to do it, set it all up and think it's a big money maker and provide poor service. More places are like that then not. So, you just buying and doing all this yourself, still doesn't say much to the effect that you'll be providing better quality service, does it? I mean, some of these people people collocate at, have been around for years. Some of the data centers are set up well, some aren't. Some know what they are actually doing, some don't. Buying and owning the hardware, doesn't resolve that issue, at all. Surely, that's a part of it. You are in control, you make the decisions of the hardware, it's quality, the set up planning, the structuring, everything. That's an advantage, yes.

However, that's a small portion of it. There's business planning and strategy, the same for the physical set up and the operating center, and then there's the other 90% of it that's not just networking and setting it up on your own lines. It's knowledge and ability, definitely. You need to provide good service in other areas too, and most of those areas have little to nothing to do with who owns what, other than the middle-man scenario. I.e., setting up a server and configuring it properly, securing it, knowing how to prevent, recognize and be inventive about resolving any problems, future problems, support issues, questions, etc. that will come from the people you host. Owning the server doesn't solve that at all.

Besides, who's to say that collocation client's don't own their own hardware? Many supply their own system, their own switch, etc. They are hooked up to the same upstream provider as the NOC, there's physically no middle-man, even if there's a financial middle-man. Sometimes it's not wise of a good strategy to spend money buying your own redundant OCx/xx/xxx lines, when you can work out a good deal that will come out the same as per connection. That's a savings of many thousands of dollars a month, because you save from having to pay for the set up of the lines alone. Of course, if you do, you have complete control to make sure no one else at the NOC or Data Center oversells their bandwidth and has it affect your sites. But, there's certainly the advantage of having your own NOC or data center, but there's so many more countless other things people need to do and be able to do, that are far more important as per whom owns what, even if that can pose a possible problem at some point.

I'm just saying, there's a lot more wrong with the hosting industry than if someone's collocating or actually started and is running a NOC themselves. That's of little consequence with the issue of all the many poorly configured servers alone. Then who cares who owns them? If someone can't run a quality service, it's usually due to lack of knowledge in many others aspects, and where and how they are actually physically connected, is usually one of the least important issues that are the problem. However, the better all around quality and "real" it can be, the better... but again, that's an issue of a much wider scope then this aspect you bring up -- although it can be and is an issue, certainly. I just don't see it as the main priority.

This is, of course, in direction of my previous comments, so don't think I'm saying anything else different, just adding to and being specific about the additional comments I am making now. To say, that most important things, can surely be resolved by the person that is having control over their own dedicated or collocated server, and there's nothing to stop them from doing it, other than knowledge. The physical network connection to the backbone, is of little consequence in that aspect.

I agree with alot of that.

I think you get my poing though.

st4120: Just curious, why are you using two handles on this board? st4120 and JBIZ718.

Originally posted by IntelligentHosting.com
st4120: Just curious, why are you using two handles on this board? st4120 and JBIZ718.

Good eye... I haven't yet decided if he should be pounced or not... still reading back messages and trying to find out why. :)

Have you ever thought that Im on the same network with someone.

I am kinda in a office.

Thats my IS person, hes kinda pissed off.

We only expose one IP address to the outside world.

He just mentioned that you guys said somethin.

Hello

See,

Originally posted by JBIZ718
Have you ever thought that Im on the same network with someone.

I am kinda in a office.

Thats my IS person, hes kinda pissed off.

We only expose one IP address to the outside world.

He just mentioned that you guys said somethin.


No problem, was just curious... I have been following the posts by jbiz718 on the neutral fiber colo facilities (in another thread) and found them very interesting, that's why the posts in this thread caught my eye. Thanks for the clarification, I'm looking forward to reading more.

Its Cool.

And Im glad youve been following that thread.

Joe

thats my IS person, as I said, but we try to stay neutral.

Actually because of a affiliate you cant even say my companies name on this board.

My IS person just is very upset with the market.

I personally am rather happy to talk about where we are going and what tools we are using. Since we are in talks with Venture Capitalists. Things are good, are business plan works, and overall after reading my IS persons posts,

He is right, we will be considered a Tier 2 company. That is about as close as you can get these days.

Joe

Hi there, ive read what you have said about resellers and such on, not knowing their **** etc.
Well i am currently a reseller, i dont want to stay one for a long time but it just isn't practical at the moment.
I used to be just a small web designer, doing little odds and sods for people but thought i could do it more in my spare time. Now im doing it full time and with money off a few people im gettin the thing finally setup.
I currently resell since my income is not yet high enough to get my own datacentre. It would be bad buisness sence would it not to spend £3million on my own datacentre to host like the 20sites that i was hosting when i started out?
Its not like i dont plan to move from reselling and i will, when the time is right. Im currently gettin a box colocated to offer unix shells as part of the service to then i will get myself a hosting box then a datacentre.

just when the time is right. :)

Just please dont have a go, people have to start some where.

Cheers

Craig

Ok

There is nothing wrong with what your doing.

I am pleased to see that your entering into the market.

Nothing against you, and we dont have the money either, we have investors, but its the people that dont understand the market.

Like something bad happended to VDI. Now there a good facility, and it wasnt there fault, but this board ripped them a new as*****. I mean come on.

Its the end users/resellers/ what ever else, that need to gain more knowledge about a market that is growing so fast.

I agree with what you mean, totaly.

The people at VDI are real people and they have provided a very good service for the past god knows how long and now they go down, not due to a person fault but to hardware. Im sure they tried their best to get the whole system online but people crying on does get to me too.

nothing is 110% reliable you cant forsee things happening and if you can, contact me and tell me the lottery numbers please :)

Just not all resellers are bad, some know their ****, alot know an awful lot.
Just the arseholes i have no time for, like yourself it seems. Esp. the ones that are giving resellers a bad rep.

Cheers

Craig

Hi All :) ya'all made good points and im going to add a few more :P i think there is nothing wrong with being an alabanza or vdi based hosts BUT as what st... and tim said you have to start from the ground up that means investing in a lot of $$$$. I see that alabanza and vdi based hosts had an easier way on starting a webhost company bec. of their webhosting in a box deal :) where other hosting companies have to start from scratch :(

I dont really care who there network providers are as long as they dont lie about it but unfortunatley most of them do lie and make it look like they 0wn their own NOC which is kind of sad bec. unsuspecting customers will take their word for it :( If only they will say that they lease at alabaza or colo at vdi and ALWAYS mention ala/vdi in their network page...

IMVHO,a good way to start is by colocating a server NOT leasing :P and work your way up ....

:beer:

After reading what my IS person has to say: and your replies;

It was interesting. He has alot of hostility against the current market.

I personally agree with him on alot of areas, but also look at the big picture.

You got to start somewhere.

I guess if you got to start somewhere, there are right ways and wrong ways of going about it.

If you go with the host in a box approach, at least know the market, and learn the game.

Joe

Originally posted by st4120
I personally have nothing to do with the hosting industry.

Originally posted by st4120
If I am making a big deal about this. I do have a vested investment into a hosting company that is launching soon.

Interesting how you switched tunes after so clearly stating that you have nothing to do with the hosting industry.

And the other comments you and JBIZ718 (whether you're one person or two people) make are also interesting considering Joe's web hosting business is an Alabanza reseller. The URL for the business, in case anyone is wondering, is http://www.***********.com/ ... The uncensored version: http://www.intense info.com/ (remove the space to get the correct URL).

"Get into the Real" indeed!

Originally posted by st4120
Ok

There is nothing wrong with what your doing.

I am pleased to see that your entering into the market.

Nothing against you, and we dont have the money either, we have investors, but its the people that dont understand the market.

Like something bad happended to VDI. Now there a good facility, and it wasnt there fault, but this board ripped them a new as*****. I mean come on.

Its the end users/resellers/ what ever else, that need to gain more knowledge about a market that is growing so fast.



There = They're, right?

Originally posted by JBIZ718
Have you ever thought that Im on the same network with someone.

I am kinda in a office.

Thats my IS person, hes kinda pissed off.

We only expose one IP address to the outside world.

He just mentioned that you guys said somethin.



What is this, a chat room? A school yard? "He said you said something and he's mad, and stuff"... So?

Originally posted by JBIZ718
thats my IS person, as I said, but we try to stay neutral.


Neutral, about what, exactly?


Actually because of a affiliate you cant even say my companies name on this board.


You never said it, unless you mean telocity.com ?


My IS person


..doesn't have a name?



just is very upset with the market.


What does that have to do with anything? If you're not happy with it (I mean, your "IS person"), then do wht you can to change it, or suggest why people should. Just coming here and annoying everyone else with insults, isn't going to be much of an incentive.


I personally am rather happy to talk about where we are going and what tools we are using.


Seemed to me, that your "IS person" was just basically saying that only yourselves and a few other people were actually "real" about their jobs.


Since we are in talks with Venture Capitalists.


...it's supposed to impress us?



Things are good,


Cool, so stop complaining.



are business plan works,


"OUR business plan works".


and overall after reading my IS persons posts,


Do you even know who he is?


He is right, we will be considered a Tier 2 company.


Okay.................


That is about as close as you can get these days.


That didn't make sense.


Joe


Bye, Joe.

Originally posted by Rehan
Originally posted by st4120
I personally have nothing to do with the hosting industry.

Originally posted by st4120
If I am making a big deal about this. I do have a vested investment into a hosting company that is launching soon.

Interesting how you switched tunes after so clearly stating that you have nothing to do with the hosting industry.

And the other comments you and JBIZ718 (whether you're one person or two people) make are also interesting considering Joe's web hosting business is an Alabanza reseller. The URL for the business, in case anyone is wondering, is http://www.***********.com/ ... The uncensored version: http://www.intense info.com/ (remove the space to get the correct URL).

"Get into the Real" indeed!


Both of them fail to know how to spell the same, simple words. Now you've gone and ruined the fun! *L* They don't have a point, just trying to annoy people, I think. Let me go ahead and post the uncensored version: http://www.intenseinfo.com/ (don't bother clicking on it) Was that what we can't say? Oops. Funny that an Alabanza reseller is insulting and putting down resellers abilities and quality. Could that say something about them? Why was their site URL censored?

[Edited by Tim_Greer on 03-18-2001 at 09:43 PM]

St

It's been a while since we've had such a condescending, know it all, jerk on the board and now here you are to fill that spot. How lucky for us all.

True there are a lot of hosting companies that misrepresent themselves as being more than they are, but that's not exactly a news flash, Einstein. It's not a problem that is specific to the hosting industry.

It's odd that you or your other personality seem to be so upset by people not knowing the hosting business yet you don't seem to have a clue yourself. If you did you would realize that what customers want is good service, reliability and a way for them to manage the everyday functions of their account. You would also realize that knowing the business means that you are aware of how you present yourself in public. You sound like an uneducated 15 year old jerk off. If I had to choose between you with your noc or a solid company leasing servers based as a NOC I know and trust, I would take the company leasing their servers any day. You need to get real and learn the business before you come on this board and hurl insults at companies that you know nothing about.

Originally posted by Tim_Greer
Why was their site URL censored?
[/B]

For violating forum rules. http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=3716

(The other username used by Joe was WISH718 (http://www.webhostingtalk.com/member.php?action=getinfo&username=WISH718)...)

Considering that you guys can run a trace route on a domain, and think that we resell Alabanza equipment and or services makes me laugh.

For you information:

Nick, my IS person is quite good at what he does. My Company has come a long way from the Alabanza days.

We still have our domain on a server there, that is our choice.

As I said in the neutral colo facility conversation.

We will get racks at colo.com and switch and data.

We have contracts with Cogent Communications and Yipes Communications.

We know how to run a company or Venture Capitalists wouldnt think twice. Since out of all the clients we've had no one that has left, because we do run it right. We take pride in our customers, and what there doing.

We innovate, and used advanced technology.

And if we dont change our website around, or keep it with Alabanza, does that mean that we still use them. No we dont.

We do keep it real, and we also know what this industry is about.

The problem here is that you people dont.

Joe

Originally posted by JBIZ718
[B]
My IS person is quite good at what he does. My Company has come a long way from the Alabanza days.
We still have our domain on a server there, that is our choice


...and i thought you have your 0wn NOC :) ...


We innovate, and used advanced technology....

Sir, may i know what company is this ?

thanks :)

Originally posted by JBIZ718
We know how to run a company or Venture Capitalists wouldnt think twice.

Is that a Freudian slip or just bad English? ;)

Actually, yes, by maintaining your own website on Alabanzas space, it means you are indeed using them in some form or another.

Maybe not for hosting your clients, but then, since you're not in the hosting industry:


I personally have nothing to do with the hosting industry.


You don't have any clients. Eh?

You're being very contradictory here.

Regards,
Vince.

I look back at these posts any others and laugh.

After reviewing this one.

Many agree that I am right.

6 months ago, I would not state these positions, but now I can.

Its also funny how you guys go out of your way to start running trace routes, but are so blind. If you would have done the right Trace routes you would see different information. But thats just here say.

My IS person Nick, and I. Well we sort look at the recent posts, and say how could you agree so strongly with us, and then change your mind.

We were always straight forward with our thoughts, and have been honest through the whole conversation.

We are not resellers for alabanza, and if you look deep enough, you will soon find out that we have are own equipment.

All of you make me laugh.

Joe

If you look back I didnt say that.

Nick did. He just works for me.

I actually do agree that was pretty bad.

Joe

st4120:

He is one of My IS people:

For future reference.

I dont even know why Im giving you all the explanations for a colegue.

No we dont have are own NOC, and It was never said that we did.

Joe

Hummmmm

After reading the initial post .. I agree with you for some cases, but not everybody is like that.

I personally started a Alabanza reseller, today I am responsible for hosting several hosting companies, some of them with multiple boxes (heck, some of them make more $$ than I do)

Neither the less, you do have to start somewhere, not everybody can afford, the Rack, and the Hub, and the server, and the connection (by the way, we have all of those, just not the "private noc" .. YET

Now ... we all know that some people simply do NOT belong in this business, and the lure of the "quick buck" has attracted allot of unqualified people, but it's all part of the game, any business has those kind of people in, and sooner or later what happens is they go out of business, and the real 'victims' are the customers.

During a problem like that happen Friday to VDI, everybody is looking for an escape goat, I think it's just human nature to blame someone else's, the other NOC we where looking at a few weeeks ago (DTWEBWORKS), that by the way also has an excellet track record, was down Today .. that just goes to show you, Stuff happens, and no matter how secure you think you are, you are NOT

I was trying to rival Tim for the longuest post here, but I give up, nobody can write that much :D

If you lease a server at Alabanza, it does not make you a reseller of Alabanza. It is the same as leasing a server at any facility. If you lease a server at Alabanza, you get the control panel and automation.

I started out the same way as you.

Know after talks with VC's and funding, I can move to a colo.com or a neutral facility.

Joe

I will be very interested in any findings you gather about colo and others like that, as you know from my other thread, it's something I am looking at as well

To add some closure:

I agree with Carlos, and many of you others.

I do have a vested interested in my company. If Nick did offend anyone, well I due apologize. He is not Me and I am not him.

We have the same IP because we use Telocity for our office. In regards to everything I hope this helps.

This industry just like other has good and bad qualities. I started out with alabanza and have moved forward.

I felt as a professional person, which I am, some closure was needed. This post was not ever ment for this.

I look at the stats and am like woa.

Thats about it here.

Joe

Ill get you that url on all of the fiber facilities tommorow.

Thanks

Joe

Originally posted by st4120

but yet the ones who know the littlest about fiberobtics, peering, and NOC's are the first to pass blame when there 50 or so clients go down.


There is so much wrong with your post that I don't know where to start...so instead I will belittle you for your lack of basic grammer comprehension :D. There is no such word as littlest. The word is least.

[Edited by uuallan on 03-18-2001 at 10:51 PM]

That wasnt me.

Joe

I think both of you should read this very interesting article: http://www.priory.com/dbt.htm

Nice article.

This must be one of the most bizarre threads I have read in quite some time.

Is there a "Best of WHT" archive where this can be safely kept? :D

lol :uzi: :)

Originally posted by Marshall
I think both of you should read this very interesting article: http://www.priory.com/dbt.htm
:scatter:

edited to remove a bit of my off-beat humor. :)


[Edited by amalgam on 03-19-2001 at 05:03 AM]

hmmmm.. i dunno what to say...

This was quite bazare.

JOe

Originally posted by JBIZ718
Considering that you guys can run a trace route on a domain, and think that we resell Alabanza equipment and or services makes me laugh.


It makes you laugh? You admit the domain of your company is on Alabanza's servers. Why does that make you laugh? Because someone stated this fact? That is the fact, though. So, why act like it's humorous? From what information people have, and by your own admittiance, it's the fact, what's funny about that?


For you information:


We all know and agree on the information, already. Refer to above.


Nick, my IS person is quite good at what he does.


How do you know? Up until now, you've both been running your site on Alabanza. How does that qualify you, as you say yourself? He doesn't seem to comprehensive about this stuff to me, but oh well.


My Company has come a long way from the Alabanza days.


Sure it has, which explains why, to date, you're still on Alabanza, after coming here and insulting Alabanza resellers and saying they have no business doing web hosting. What does this say about you? Obviously you didn't think people would have known. Pretty NON-quite good at what you do.


We still have our domain on a server there, that is our choice.


Yes, it is, and that's all there is to it.


As I said in the neutral colo facility conversation.


You let us know how unqualified you guy's are. Unless you've suddenly formed this opinion about other people that haven'y made the decision to pay a lot of money to do their own NOC, since you finally (allegedly) decided to. Let's see if your domain is hosted on your own NOC in the next 5 years.


We will get racks at colo.com and switch and data.


This does not validate anything you've been insulting people about, especially since you are the very person you speak of.


We have contracts with Cogent Communications and Yipes Communications.


But, you'll be running your domains on Alabanza anyway, because it's "your choice" to do so. You'll have a NOC, you just "choose not to use it".


We know how to run a company or Venture Capitalists wouldnt think twice.


I disagree, I've seen a lot of people invest money into people and company's that are completely unqualified in the business and technical aspects. Bill Gates is my uncle and will give me ownership of Microsoft in the next few months. I said it, so you know it's true!


Since out of all the clients we've had no one that has left,


Irrelevant. If nothing else, you've just admitted you've lied to them.


because we do run it right.


How exactly can you run it WRONG? Alabanza's running and has set up the servers. What do you do? Oh, I see, you "resell". You're your own worst enemy.


We take pride in our customers, and what there doing.


Please learn the difference between "their", "there" and "they're". And, what does pride in your customers even mean? That seems like a strange thing to say.


We innovate, and used advanced technology.


No, you USE Alabanza, whom are infamous for using out of date, ancient software and insecure server setups. "Innovative" is not a term you use, when you're hosting on Alabanza's reseller server and like to try and brag about ridiculous, juvinile things on a public board, for no reason.



And if we dont change our website around, or keep it with Alabanza, does that mean that we still use them. No we dont.


Well, that didn't make ANY sense! You use them, but if you don't still use them, even if you decide to, that doesn't mean you still use them? That makes sense?



We do keep it real,


Coming here, lying and acting like you're someone and something you aren't, isn't "real" -- "homie".


and we also know what this industry is about.


This is a joke, right? "The industry"? Neat buzz word, care to explain what you mean? Do you have any idea what you've said?


The problem here is that you people dont.

Joe


Is making claims, supposed to impress people? You've insulted people for doing exactly what you're doing yourself, now and up until now. You fail to make any sense and look like a fool. Please, point out where anything I said indicated that I don't know about "the industry". You're the exact type of person I speak of previously. That is the kind of person that likes to act like he knows all about the "industry" and that's the only thing you can ever say or do to debate the issues. What do you know about it? What exactly do you think's the big secret or complex aspect about it? Do you really think it's that difficult or confusing? You know there's bad hosts out there, that's new? Obviuously you simply fail to see that you are one of them, by your own words and admittiance in this very thread. This is just pathetic.

You are so dumb.

Since knowledge is Power, and well your head is way up your a**, I find you stupid, and rather insulting.

I dont need to prove my credibility in the industry to you. You are not a client and or a investor in the company. Some of those comments you state are not there to impress you, VC's dont talk to fools like yourself. Good VC's do very thorough examinations of businesses.

If you really did your homework you can tell. That we dont use alabanza at all. We do for one account. Thats about it. Are other sites have nothing to do with them.

People like you are the problem I am talking about. They are insulting without having the whole picture. I can give you domain after domain after domain, that will clearly show that my clients have nothing to do with alabanza, and dont use there equipment.

What makes me laugh is the fact that you miss the big picture. Instead of seeing the big picture people like you just like to shoot down an opinion what ever the case. It doesnt matter what it is, you have to high of an ego to let someone else voice.

You are the problem.

Originally posted by JBIZ718
I look back at these posts any others and laugh.


Well, now I'm inpressed...


After reviewing this one.

Many agree that I am right.


Where did that come from? That a strange claim. Who are these many people? I didn't see anyone agree with you and say you were right. Hearing voices?


6 months ago, I would not state these positions, but now I can.


No, now you can not. You are still doing exactly what you are insulting other's about.


Its also funny how you guys go out of your way to start running trace routes, but are so blind.


How so? Explain, for once.


If you would have done the right Trace routes you would see different information. But thats just here say.


That makes no sense. A trace route, is a trace route. It routes to the destintation. They all end up at the same place, just take different "routes" to get there. Of course, you didn't know that, since you aren't educated on any of the most very basic aspects of the Internet and it's protocols.


My IS person Nick, and I.


..are the same person? Are in mad, passionate love with each other? Like to rub mayonaise on your bare feet in the Spring time?


Well we sort look at the recent posts, and say how could you agree so strongly with us, and then change your mind.


What are you even talking about, and to whom? About yourself? You asked the question.


We were always straight forward with our thoughts, and have been honest through the whole conversation.


Well, I'm not sure that's true, since you said that you're not in the web hosting business. You said resellers are scum and you're a reseller. There's more, of course.


We are not resellers for alabanza,


Yes, you are. I like how you say "we", though.


and if you look deep enough, you will soon find out that we have are own equipment.


Irrelevant. We have no way of knowing you own that equipment anyway. You're still reseller on Alabanza's network. And, we've discussed that it doesn't matter whom owns what, but how qualified you actually are.. and that surely there can be added problems (or advantages) to being collocated on a NOC, which you are guilty of all of the above. Therefore, you are self proclaiming your ignorance and low standing in "the industry".


All of you make me laugh.

Joe


Oh, and I can see why too, Joe. Wow, Joe/Nick, I guess you're really put us in our place. :-)

Originally posted by JBIZ718
If you look back I didnt say that.

Nick did. He just works for me.

I actually do agree that was pretty bad.

Joe

Oh, right, if we look back, we can clearly see that wasn't you, on the same IP, saying the same things, not knowing how to spell the same words. Yeah, really clear. Either way, your "IS person" (Nick/the other you) doesn't seem to represent your company as a whole very well. How old are you?

Get one,

Go out have some fun.

You waste alot of time here.

Originally posted by CRego3D


I was trying to rival Tim for the longuest post here, but I give up, nobody can write that much :D [/B]

I don't know what to say.. I... I.. I think I'll write a short essay on this issue! To begin, I'd like to state that I have not and never will be a....

It says your a sys admin

Then you should know that 2 people can have the Same IP.

Im sorry you dont understand the Real

It is interesting how it started out as a conversation of the market, and now because of your sickness, it is focused on defacing me.

Thats the people that have the problems.

It has a interesting destination.:

Trace this IP:

http://www.intensewebforum.com

You will see I own it, and it doesnt point to Alabanza.

Please acknowledge it when you get a chance. That destination is the place for some of our servers. We have others.

A whois on your domain, Joe, shows you're in Skokie, IL.
A whois on the IP your domain resolves to, shows you're hosted by "ADVANCED WEB HOSTING & DESIGN (NETBLK-ATWORK-43868-40760)", located in PA.

A traceroute shows you're on @home's network.

So, your equipment, is at Mr Robert Greenwalds NOC, behind an @home network, in a different state?

I fail to see how this proved your point. Btw, congratulations on leaving Alabanza and moving to @home.

Originally posted by JBIZ718

It has a interesting destination.:

Trace this IP:

http://www.intensewebforum.com

You will see I own it, and it doesnt point to Alabanza.


Technically speaking...that is not an IP address it is a domain, but what heck, I'll bite:

It translates to: 209.125.56.32

@Home Network / @Work Division (NETBLK-ATWORK2) ATWORK2
209.125.0.0 - 209.125.255.255
ADVANCED WEB HOSTING & DESIGN (NETBLK-ATWORK-43868-40760) ATWORK-43868-40760
209.125.56.0 - 209.125.56.255

Am I to asume your company is ADVANCED WEB HOSTING & DESIGN? Okay, you have your own Class C, to quote Shania Twain, "that don't [sic] impress me much".

It appears to be on the backbone of the @Home network:

[allan@police allan]$ /usr/sbin/traceroute http://www.intensewebforum.com
traceroute to http://www.intensewebforum.com (209.125.56.32), 30 hops max, 40 byte packet
s
1 gw.iad.version12.net (63.80.246.1) 1.142 ms 4.138 ms 1.093 ms
2 206.112.71.125 (206.112.71.125) 0.953 ms 0.865 ms 3.144 ms
3 206.112.64.35 (206.112.64.35) 3.342 ms 4.362 ms 0.948 ms
4 0.so-1-0-0.WR1.IAD6.Alter.Net (157.130.59.77) 1.003 ms 1.017 ms 3.131 ms
5 0.so-3-0-0.XR1.IAD5.ALTER.NET (152.63.39.94) 3.274 ms 0.811 ms 0.792 ms
6 300.at-7-1-0.XR1.DCA8.ALTER.NET (152.63.34.245) 2.280 ms 3.014 ms 2.357 ms
7 POS6-0.BR3.DCA8.ALTER.NET (152.63.36.5) 2.258 ms 4.715 ms 1.907 ms
8 137.39.52.38 (137.39.52.38) 3.193 ms 5.412 ms 3.251 ms
9 c1-pos1-0.cmdnnj1.home.net (24.7.65.86) 12.931 ms 7.112 ms 7.490 ms
10 c1-pos3-0.phlapa1.home.net (24.7.65.226) 6.696 ms 12.744 ms 8.998 ms
11 w1-pos1-0-0.pop1.pa.home.net (24.7.73.42) 8.762 ms 6.879 ms 7.056 ms
12 10.252.44.158 (10.252.44.158) 160.924 ms 10.252.44.122 (10.252.44.122) 201.0
79 ms 10.252.44.158 (10.252.44.158) 170.256 ms
13 awhd-uu-209.125.56.xxx (209.125.56.32) 39.995 ms 192.977 ms 143.656 ms

Again....that doesn't tell us much. I wouldn't exactly call @Home a tier 1 provider. I'm not saying they are a bad provider, or that the ping times were bad (though not the best).

However, none of this proves your technical superiority to anyone else on the board, nor does it prove how "Real" your NOC is.

To show you what I mean, here is a 20 ping test to your server:

--- 209.125.56.32 ping statistics ---
22 packets transmitted, 21 packets received, 4% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max = 41.3/128.8/215.9 ms

Now, here is a 20 ping test to HostRocket, who is a VDI reseller:

--- http://www.hostrocket.com ping statistics ---
21 packets transmitted, 20 packets received, 4% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max = 8.7/10.1/14.6 ms

And to tera-byte who operates their own NOC:

--- http://www.tera-byte.com ping statistics ---
24 packets transmitted, 24 packets received, 0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max = 68.0/70.7/74.4 ms

If I were a customer looking for a site, I would choose HostRocket or Tera-Byte before your site. Again, that is not meant to be a slight against your technical ability. However, please remember that you are dealing with some very smart people on this board. Many of whom have been dealing with servers, routers, and switches for a very long time. It takes a lot to impress us :D.

I would go on, but I do not want to take away Tim's longest post award :D.

Originally posted by JBIZ718
You are so dumb.


Hey there, that's a nice insult. Oh, okay, so now I am the problem? How so? Explain? Oh, right, you don't have to explain this ranting, because I'm not your client. Well, no kidding I'm not! You were saying people are not 'really' hosting, if they don't have their own NOC, you don't... you use Alabanza's NOC, so you look foolish stating the things you have. How do I look "dumb", because you have no idea what *you* are talking about?


Since knowledge is Power, and well your head is way up your a**, I find you stupid, and rather insulting.


Oh geez... Do you really think just claiming things makes them true? Now, you say this about me, because I point out the problem and flaws in your debate and insults?


I dont need to prove my credibility in the industry to you.


I think you do, if you want to make any sense to any of the viewers reading this nonsense, or to not look like such an ignorant oaf.


You are not a client and or a investor in the company.


Exactly.. and because I'd not be foolish enough to be one.


Some of those comments you state are not there to impress you,


That, as usual, didn't make any sense. You're saying the things *I* said, aren't there to impress me? How do you know I'm not trying to impress myself? :-) If you mean to say your statements, then okay, I agree that they aren't impressive.


VC's dont talk to fools like yourself. Good VC's do very thorough examinations of businesses.


geez... Now I'll never be allowed in your club, huh?


If you really did your homework you can tell.


My "homework"? Cliche alert.


That we dont use alabanza at all.


Yes, you do. Your server is on their network.


We do for one account.


You DO have one account on Alabanza, but you "don't use Alabanza at all", right? Okay, that makes about as much sense as you can seem to make.


Thats about it.


I agree, that about says it all.


Are other sites have nothing to do with them.


Damn it! It's OUR! OUR!! OUR!!! NOT "ARE"! Well, one of your site's does, even though you clearly said you 'don't use them at all'. I guess being on their network isn't actually using them.


People like you are the problem I am talking about.


I can see why, since I'm pointing out the flaws in your claims. I don't blame you for not liking it.


They are insulting without having the whole picture.


Wow, Pot->Kettle->Black.


I can give you domain after domain after domain, that will clearly show that my clients have nothing to do with alabanza, and dont use there equipment.


"THIER", not "THERE"! We've gone over this already. Please, list some domains, or don't offer to.


What makes me laugh is the fact


... that you are entertained by shiney objects?


that you miss the big picture.


Yeah, poor, ingorant, little ole' unqualified me... I wish that I become the big web hosting guru dude you guy's are. If only... *looking off into the distance*...


Instead of seeing the big picture people like you just like to shoot down an opinion what ever the case.


Shoot down an opinion? I agreed with some of what you said, but then I see that you are the exact person that you are insulting and it seemed to be a good idea to point that fact out. Obviously, this isn't something you can well grasp.


It doesnt matter what it is, you have to high of an ego to let someone else voice.


"Too", not "to". Yeah, me an my massive "ego" for pointing out how ridiculous and wrong you are, to be lying and insulting people for doing the very thing you're trying to hide that you yourself are doing. Yeah, I'm a real dick.


You are the problem.


Oh, sure... I should listen to you more, since what you say is apparently fact. Since you're so keen on wanting to show how foolish I look for pointing out the flaws in your posts, please explain it, since you're apparently so capable.

Originally posted by JBIZ718
Get one,

Go out have some fun.

You waste alot of time here.

Bwahhahahahahaaha!!! Little boy, had you been here before, you'd know well enough by now, that I'm NEVER fun, I don't have or want a life and I love wasting my time with people like you!... I'm just a little geeky, confused boy that has nothing better to do, then waste my time being obsessed over you on this web board! I have issues, I know, but they are MY issues, damn it! *sobbing*... You're right though *sniff*.. You're much cooler than I am. :-(

Originally posted by JBIZ718
It says your a sys admin


I just want to get this before Tim has a chance to:

your is a possessive, as in belonging to you.
you're is a contraction, you are.

It should read, "It says you're a sys admin." (allowing for sentence fractures of course :)).

ok ok..break it up guys.. could we please keep this post on track?

I never said I owned my own NOC.

We are moving to colo.com , and switch and data.

And I have no interest in AWD. I do have my own servers. I also own my own routers for the new facility.

I love how I say one thing and you interpret in other ways.

Originally posted by JBIZ718
It says your a sys admin

Then you should know that 2 people can have the Same IP.



Yes, but rarely do those same two people say the same exact things, fail to properly spell the same basic words and post at exactly the same times. If you are truely two different people, then you may as well save some evironmental resources, get an opertation and combine your super hero powers of being annoying twerps and just get it over with.

PS: I never did a trace route on your domain, that was someone else. Heck, I never even checked. But, the point is, you ARE a reseller on Abalanza, even if you don't use it, your main company's domain apparently resolves to it. You admit you have an account on Alabanza, yet you say you "don't use them at all". Be clear about that. Nonethless, you said no one's a "real" hosting company, unless they specifically own their own equipment and NOC, which you admit you have yet to do. It's ridiculous and you'll have to deal with the fact that I will enjoy pointing that aspect out.

Originally posted by JBIZ718
Im sorry you dont understand the Real


Try READING what people are saying...


It is interesting how it started out as a conversation of the market, and now because of your sickness, it is focused on defacing me.


Yeah, the sickness all started when I was young... people would converse with me and I'd RESPOND.. It's pretty weird, I know. I'm looking into medication though. Pray for me.. I.. Wait, what the?! .. did you...??... I... It.. the....... *pause* You have NO FACE?!



Thats the people that have the problems.


Oh, yeah.. pshycoanalize people that respond to your posts and point out how you're contradicting yourself.. CRAZY!! *wwwooooooooo! Wooooooooooooo!!! Howl!!! Yeeeeeoooooowwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I'm wacky and zaney that way...


It has a interesting destination.:

Trace this IP:

http://www.intensewebforum.com

You will see I own it, and it doesnt point to Alabanza.


Irrelevant, that's not the site in question. The point is, you do host on Alabanza's NOC, after you spoke poorly or any company that does such a thing. .. Don't worry, just me being "CRAZY" again. :-)


Please acknowledge it when you get a chance. That destination is the place for some of our servers. We have others.


I have many domains myself, they don't all point to the same NOC, nor are they on the same NOC. What's your point? This doesn't help your arguement... thanks for playing though.

I will have to say though.

Not really happy with where this post went, but it was fun with you people.

Most of guys know your stuff though, you make me laugh to what lengths you will go.

Joe

Originally posted by kunal
ok ok..break it up guys.. could we please keep this post on track?

Geeeez mom! You never let us have fun! :-( Anyway, I just saw your post, but I'm not sure how this was ever on track to begin with? I've had my fun anyway. :-)

st4120
Newbie

Registered: Mar 2001
Posts: 8
Position

Get a Rack, get a router, get a switch, get a hub, and finally get a Server.

When that is all said and done, then call yourself a hosting company.

Until then, your just lieing to everyone.


There is no reference to NOC in there.

In regards to Alabanza, is it wrong to keep it there. We have moved on, but just dont use them. Yes once were a reseller for them, but now, have no interest.

We happen to be in the office on the same day, being on the same network.

On a lighter side.

I have learned two things.

Spelling got to work on that.

You can have fun on this board.

I hope my board eventually gets the same type of people.

Joe

Also have you learned:

Posting like Yoda Haiku -

Hard to understand.

;)

Yeah, the sickness all started when I was young... people would converse with me and I'd RESPOND.. It's pretty weird, I know. I'm looking into medication though. Pray for me.. I.. Wait, what the?! .. did you...??... I... It.. the....... *pause* You have NO FACE?!

Heh, you're an Fnut Tim. You hearing those cats talking to each other through telepathy again?? Or is it the voices out of thin air this time? Oh please dont tell me the pigs are talking to you now. I told them to leave you alone because the cats already have you going crazy. Man this is bad news, Dale Earnhardt (or was that Elvis??) just told me you must have really lost it because you are sitting on your floor in the yoga position praying to a cd player while your wife(sister, ex-brother) is doing the moonwalk in circles around you. Was your dad that bad to you as child? Please go see a specialist. Maybe Carlos can help you out.....I'll just send Elvis over, he's a good listener now since he gave up singing :D

Geez Man, now you are scaring me ... :D

Insipid.

I don't think I've ever seen more inane postings from anyone than I have here from st and jbiz (assuming they are two different people, which I highly doubt given the similarities in their excessive idiocy and their hurry to show it off to everyone).

Those of you who think you can reason with obvious trolls: why don't you just ignore them? Tim, I know it's hard for you especially since you have more to say than anybody I've ever met, but you're only feeding the energy creature(s). DFTEC. Don't Feed The Energy Creature(s). Learn it. Live it. Love it. Trolls shrivel up and die due to lack of attention and it makes the world a better place. He (or, less likely, they) in this instance has shown enormous levels of stupidity. Public shaming, done to oneself, is more damaging than any external criticism. Why not just let it stand as is as a monument and a warning to never patronize the business of those who would be patronizing?

Is there an ignore function somewhere in vBulletin? That would be pretty handy, much like the newsgroups filters I have in place. The moderators could nip this type of thing in the bud, and that would also help.

Personally, I don't care. People think they are making points about something, though I'm not sure what.

There was one insult, but I only saw it quoted and must have missed the actual post of it, and no one seemed to care much, and honestly, I'm not going to bother looking through all 5 pages to find it.

Yeah scram Chicken, no Mods allowed on this thread :D

Actually, this has been a very funny thread. Ok, ok...so you got a technically advanced minded clown posting(wont name any names, but Tim's posts were hilarious), but I enjoyed it..LOL...oh yeah my IS (Elvis) enjoyed it too.

Originally posted by Webdude
Yeah scram Chicken, no Mods allowed on this thread :D

Actually, this has been a very funny thread. Ok, ok...so you got a technically advanced minded clown posting(wont name any names, but Tim's posts were hilarious), but I enjoyed it..LOL...oh yeah my IS (Elvis) enjoyed it too.

Oh, you know. I gotta let loose and have some fun once in a while... Trolls are the best target for my abuse. I had my fun though. It's just good target practice, nothing anyone should take seriously with what anyone here says. :-)

Just FYI we have 13 servers that are not at Alabanza, and 2 that are. Our domain is hosted on one of the Alabanza servers because the nameservers for the two servers are through our main domain, and its just easier to leave things the way they are.

-Brendan

Originally posted by hostrocket
Just FYI we have 13 servers that are not at Alabanza, and 2 that are. Our domain is hosted on one of the Alabanza servers because the nameservers for the two servers are through our main domain, and its just easier to leave things the way they are.Resellers! Resellers! Resellers!

(I hope this thread hasn't gone on so long that a joke isn't recognizable.)

I just spent around 40 minutes wading through the 5 pages of this thread! All I can say is... Oh... My... God!

Just when I thought all (well, most(well, some (well a few))) of the people here were normal!

What can say, I am still smiling at this insanity.

Regards,
Michael

[Edited by MichaelD on 03-30-2001 at 01:49 AM]

I agree, to run a successful hosting company customers always have to be the first priority. If your customers are your number one priority you are not going to resell, your going to get reliable name brand equipment and do it right. I always say "It takes money to make money" well that is true, the money you spend in your business comes back to you 100% if you spend it right and buy quality equipment. These days anyone can take the easy route and just become a reseller for some company that could go down at any second. An example of this is Champion Host they are resellers and if you look at their reviews in Host Search you will see how poor they are. The main point is, if you want to run a successful business do it right and don't take the easy route.

Originally posted by SECUREDNETWORKS
I always say "It takes money to make money"

You sure are clever. I bet the other hosts on this board, oh wait we're not allowed to call them that because they don't OWN a noc. Well I bet those that are leasing and colocating their servers will appreciate that profoundly clever saying that you have there. As a matter of fact since you seem to be such an enlightened host and know how to make money, I'm going to ditch my current "host" and go with you.

Originally posted by people of the board and whatnot.
Entire Thread

Medic!

I learned a lot of things reading this thread... after you see the same two people from the the same IP use the word funny and laugh a lot, the words on the screen tend to blur together and you begin thinking not of the words on the screen but instead of Flintstones Orange flavor Push-up's.

I hope this thread continues because (1) laughter is always good for our health and (2) certain individuals can receive tutoring on their grammar. I can also use the grammar education myself. Perhaps there should be a grammar/spelling section.

On a serious note, I had worked for two multinational communications companies. They had all the hardware and network infrastructure, but when it came to providing reliable services and keeping customers happy, they failed. Thus, having your own hardware does not guarantee customer satisfactions or business success.

Regarding the term "venture capitalists"... it's so meaningless and over used. To me, venture capitalists could be your mom and dad, your next-door neighbours (Canadian spelling), etc. Also, having money to invest does not mean you know the "industry". I know because a few people (not related to me) have approached me about investing in me, and the scary thing is that they don't care how I use the money. In fact, they know nothing about computers. They have never even used emails. Hmm, perhaps I should have taken the money to spend it on some hardware. In exchange for the money, I would name some servers after their kids instead of Greek gods and Star Trek characters. I would even allow them to take pictures of themselves next to the servers.

Correct me if I am wrong SecuredNetworks, but it appears to me that you are hosting from SDSL lines, yes?

IP Block:
EarthLink Network, Inc. (NETBLK-EARTHLINK-SDSL) EARTHLINK-SDSL
216.135.128.0 - 216.135.255.255
Secured Networks (NETBLK-ERSD-SNETWORKS1) ERSD-SNETWORKS1
216.135.233.0 - 216.135.233.31

Traceroute (Last 2 Hops)
18 user-vc8fn3k.biz.mindspring.com (216.135.220.116) 121.726 ms 130.495 ms 125.277 ms
19 user-vc8fq8a.biz.mindspring.com (216.135.233.10) 132.628 ms 131.051 ms 128.079 ms

I may be wrong, I may not. But if I am right how does that make you better then anyone who is leasing a server or reselling, at least if someone is reselling then there is a very god chance they are doing so from a reliable, well conected NOC.

We have redundent T1 lines provided by Earthlink and Metanet, having redundent lines makes our service very reliable.

Originally posted by SECUREDNETWORKS
We have redundent T1 lines provided by Earthlink and Metanet, having redundent lines makes our service very reliable.

I don't want to question your business model, because I am sure you have thought it thoroughly through. However, for about the price of those dual T1s, you could probably colocate your equipment in someone's data center and take advantage of the fast that they have redundant power sources as well as redundant connections that are faster than T1.

Originally posted by JBIZ718
It says your a sys admin

Then you should know that 2 people can have the Same IP.



Correction: "you are a"

System Alert: Poor English. Swallow a grammar book.

Originally posted by Webdude
Heh, you're an Fnut Tim. You hearing those cats talking to each other through telepathy again?? Or is it the voices out of thin air this time? Oh please dont tell me the pigs are talking to you now. I told them to leave you alone because the cats already have you going crazy. Man this is bad news, Dale Earnhardt (or was that Elvis??) just told me you must have really lost it because you are sitting on your floor in the yoga position praying to a cd player while your wife(sister, ex-brother) is doing the moonwalk in circles around you. Was your dad that bad to you as child? Please go see a specialist. Maybe Carlos can help you out.....I'll just send Elvis over, he's a good listener now since he gave up singing :D
[/B]

I read this and went to bed. I had a nightmare about pigs and cats and cows and yoga and saints and moon. I woke up screaming to find my scalp hair torn and lying all over my bed.

Mommieeeee helpppp!!!

Really I don't know why I'm bothering to post in this thread except to say that I know everything there is to know about everything and there is not point trying to explain it to you plebs because you are all so stupid you make me laugh. hahahaha! I'm so smart.

[the above was contributed to maintain the spirit of the thread]

Now in an attempt to say something sensible... Getting back to the original premise of the arguement, was that resellers are just frauds and are operating on an illigitimate business model. I just have two words to add to the debate...

distribution economics

We don't buy from manufacturers because it not economic for the consumer or the manufacturer to do business this way. Distribution systems are a result of natural economics. When I do my grocery shopping I don't drive out into the countryside and visit farmer Joe and hawl a dead cow back home, then drive over the ridge and pick up some peas from farmer Betty, etc, etc. I go to a supermarket which has combined an array of products and services that meet the needs of me as a consumer. There are so many different consumers with different needs that a whole range of distribution models pervades the market.

Are our two friends going to cater to every type of web publisher with their hosting service? From the fortune 500s to every Mom and Pop or Scout Troup that want their own web site?

That's all I have to say. You don't need to bother yourself correcting any of my grammer of spelling because I'm so much smarter than all of you that I can spell how ever I want. So there.

<chuckle>

-Michael

We do not collocate because when you do that not only are you taking the easy way out, but you are hurting your business. You can't trust someone behind a computer telling you that your company will be safe in our hands and saying that they have all these multiple redundancies on their T3 lines. Wouldn't you rather go with a company that did it on their own? Bought their own equipment, chose their own lines. Rather then depending on a company that depends on another that could go down at any moment? You have no control. When you collocate you have no control over what goes on; over what equipment they are using; for all you know they could go down at any moment.

Hello All :)

IMVHO, owning your own equipment and running your own line is the best solution, you have complete control over things.

Depending on where you live, let's say here in southern cali , between colo'ing and having your own line, the prices are almost the same, i think :P and let's say i want to colo at vdi, now vdi is a good company but what if i messed something up on my server and i want it hardrebooted or fixed NOW! if my machine is colo'd at another place then i still have to call them and wait for them to reboot or fix the machine, worse is when the techs are not responding to your request :(

Now don't get me wrong but, if i have a choice and the budget, owning your own equipment and running it yourself is the best solution. On the other hand, i think colocating is prolly the best solution to most webhosts. :)

Originally posted by SECUREDNETWORKS
Wouldn't you rather go with a company that did it on their own? Bought their own equipment, chose their own lines. Rather then depending on a company that depends on another that could go down at any moment? You have no control. When you collocate you have no control over what goes on; over what equipment they are using; for all you know they could go down at any moment. From your potential customer's point of view, that logic is flawed. Why should they have any more confidence in the datacenter-owning host's NOC than than in that of the colo provider of a host that doesn't own their own center? There are many, many smallish companies with their own datacenters that are unreliable enough to invalidate that point. It's not unreasonably for someone to conclude that a large datacenter housing a large number of servers belonging to various companies is a more reliable bet than is a small, independantly-run center.

I'm not saying that's always the case, just that in some cases it certainly is.

And of course even if you own your own NOC you're depending on other comapnnies "that could go down at any moment" to provide your connection. You rely on a company to deliver your hardware, to provide electricity, to provide diesel fuel for your backup generators! There aren't many industries or business where a company doesn't have to depend on another company. There's nothing inherently bad about it.

We didn't say we relied on other people. When you go with a Collocater you can't make those decisions, like what equipment to buy, where to get your redundant lines. We are not saying all Collos are not reliable, but wouldn't you rather be able to control what goes on with your company?

Originally posted by SECUREDNETWORKS
When you collocate you have no control over what goes on; over what equipment they are using; for all you know they could go down at any moment.

Right, and the same is true with any line your get from your providers. The difference is that if the lines to the Data Center we are colocated in go down, I have one of the world's largest companies on the phone trying to bring them back up (and its higly doubtful that both lines would go down at the same time).

That being said, in addition to the fact that they are running dual OC-48s into the data center (not just T3s), they have a weeks worth of generator backup, a completely redundant network infrastructure (Juniper M160s and Cisco Catalyst 6509s), and if I want to I can even bring in an outside connection.

As far as choosing equipment, we use our own servers, our own switches, and our own routers, to connect to their infrastructure.

There really is no contest. Unless you have enough money to build a datacenter out the proper way, you are just hurting your customers if you don't colocation with another provider.

Like we said, there are some really great collos out there. In our opinion with our experience it is in the best interest of our company to do it on our own. This way we can provide quality reliable web hosting services.

Originally posted by freakysid
Really I don't know why I'm bothering to post in this thread except to say that I know everything there is to know about everything and there is not point trying to explain it to you plebs because you are all so stupid you make me laugh. hahahaha! I'm so smart.

[the above was contributed to maintain the spirit of the thread]

Now in an attempt to say something sensible... Getting back to the original premise of the arguement, was that resellers are just frauds and are operating on an illigitimate business model. I just have two words to add to the debate...

distribution economics

We don't buy from manufacturers because it not economic for the consumer or the manufacturer to do business this way. Distribution systems are a result of natural economics. When I do my grocery shopping I don't drive out into the countryside and visit farmer Joe and hawl a dead cow back home, then drive over the ridge and pick up some peas from farmer Betty, etc, etc. I go to a supermarket which has combined an array of products and services that meet the needs of me as a consumer. There are so many different consumers with different needs that a whole range of distribution models pervades the market.

Are our two friends going to cater to every type of web publisher with their hosting service? From the fortune 500s to every Mom and Pop or Scout Troup that want their own web site?

That's all I have to say. You don't need to bother yourself correcting any of my grammer of spelling because I'm so much smarter than all of you that I can spell how ever I want. So there.

I'm not sure how accurate these analogies are anyway, but I think it's a matter of being a grocery store; do you get your groceries from your own suppliers, or do you get it in bulk from a Costco store and then resell it? We're not talking about the difference of building a farm and running it to get food, compared to shopping at the local market.

We're talking about "Do you drive your own car the the market and select your own food, etc., or do you pay someone to go there and select the food for you and you employ them to do so, based on the fact that they are better equipped for the job than you?" If you don't have the ability to make good decisions or buy your own food (maybe you don't have a car?), then it's better to have someone else buy it in bulk at an outlet and get it for cheaper, rather than buying a car to do your own shopping.

However, it is a fact that the less people in the chain-of-command, the better. Sometimes, people employ other people's services, because you don't want to buy a car lot or run one, just to buy a car, and you don't want to pay for OC3's or higher, just to do hosting, when you can hook up to someone else's data center. Most likely, if you do, all you'll depend on anyway, is the same upstream provider's service and not the service of the NOC anyway, so it comes out to be the same service, but someone else paid for all the line's, paid for all the hookups and the costs to run it monthly.

Let's be realistic, this isn't about creating the Earth in seven days and going through evolution, just to go shopping at the local market, compared to paying for someone to deliver them to your house. Sometimes different solutions are better, and sometimes it's completely STUPID to plan to go out and get you own data center and DS3's or OC3's or whatever, just to do web hosting for client's that would never cover the costs anyway.

If you do it on a large scale and have a large client base, yes, you'd be better off having your own data center, or doing some sort of partnership with them, instead of leasing servers from them, or collocating and going through them to get to the upstream provider, because there is that added risk. However, if they just hook up the physical systems and it's up to the upstream provider to give the quality service or not, then it comes out the same. So, you have some options and they are reasonable. I think we're talking about a different level of service here, on a different level of business.

Nonetheless, if you don't have enough client's to offset your own server or don't have the knowledge to run your own, you should resell on someone else's. If you do have the money and not the knowledge to run your own server, hire someone to do it, or stay on a resold server, because you have no business playing with people's money and business site's if you don't have the knowledge to run it yourself or don't hire someone to do it. If you have the knowledge or money to hire someone and you have a large enough client base, get your own server and not risk the system's performance from suffering due to other resellers on the same server or another middle-man. Collocate or get a dedicated server. If your client base grows beyond that, get more.

If you decide to and have the money, share a data center. If you really need or want to, which is rare you'd need to, get your own data center... but, I don't realistically see that many web hosts, and yes, even here, needing their own data center. Sure, there are added risks to not being directly responsible, but sometimes people shouldn't be the person responsible anyway, because there's better qualified people.

The only thing I personally mentioned, and what I meant anyway, was that I fail to understand why anyone would EVER want to get a dedicated server, from a reseller of a data center, rather than just going directly through the data center, and avoiding a lot of hassles and possibly problems with another chain-of-command... unless that reseller can assist them in running a server -- but I don't think people should have gotten that far anyway, unless they knew how to run on or hired someone -- unless that reseller is their step up and is the person that's helping them run it properly.

So, it can all be very reasonable and normal and the best thing, even if they did have money otherwise -- but that they should try and make informed and intelligent decisions, based on these aspects and issues, rather than just assuming one thing is just better than the other, because it all depends on the company/business, people involved, people responsible, the client's that they cater to and money involved, as well as what will result in the best and most genuine quality. Perhaps that's more clear.

Therefore, reselling may or may not be a good or bad thing, or the best or worst or most stupid or wise thing, it all depends and there's nothing wrong with it, unless people are reckless, ignorant, have no business doing it, or are deceitful about it. It all depends on a great number of things and saying something it good or bad without knowing the aspects involved, is not helpful, nor informative. Simply put though, depending on the aspects, it can add a greater potential for problems, OR it can greatly lessen the potential. It all depends.

Originally posted by SECUREDNETWORKS
Like we said, there are some really great collos out there. In our opinion with our experience it is in the best interest of our company to do it on our own. This way we can provide quality reliable web hosting services.

I think what people meant, was "Sure, okay, for YOU". This is not true of everyone else and for many reasons. And, people can go further and ask YOU, how this is allegedly the best and most quality service you can provide, when you seem to be running the service on fairly small lines, whereas this is limiting to what sort of client's you can host. That may not be an issue for you, because of the type of client's you cater to. Certain one or two T-1 lines are enough for a lot of web hosts, but for some, this is a disadvantage and they are faced with the choice of getting huge lines or going with someone else's data center.

Furthermore, as someone else mentioned, for the price for two T-1's, you can house your servers at a data center that's hooked up to large lines. Sure, you're at someone else's data center, but if they hook you directly up to two OC-48 lines and you only worry about the upstream provider anyway, wherein you can even use your own switch/router or whatever, it's difficult to see how this can be a bad thing, since all you have to worry about is the upstream provider anyway.

How can that be less quality, if the data center uses a good, or even the same company, but offers you access to larger lines, the ability to move more bandwidth and data with less limitations, for less money and probably has a better secure building and power redundancy, etc. too? I suppose you can say, that maybe that's not better than your personal set up, because you don't need that sort of access, but I don't see how that's worse, unless you want to sit at your own data center on your own office or building (or house) and be able to do physical fixes, changes, etc. at any moment you desire. I can understand that.

So, there are actually advantages to your set up that I can see and agree on now, but only if you do have that physical access, which some of us don't have an option anyway -- in which case, there's no advantage at all. I can see and I agree on it being good, if you have such access, but in comparison to the other's, it's not something that's necessarily better or worse -- it just all depends. However, like you said, this is best for what *you* do and for *your* company. It just seemed you were saying how and why this is best for everyone, which it's not.

Some day soon, I'd like to run my own multi-server web hosting, but I don't want to spend that sort of money right now... but when I do, I'll surely share a data center or do some sort of partnership, because unless or until I made a huge amount of money and had a large enough client base, it would be a bad idea to buy the lines I'd need -- and even so, my current geographical location prevents me from making a decision of getting my own lines that'd be large enough at my own office anyway. I'm sure we all understand each other.

I would not necessarily say reselling out of a NOC is a bad thing. There's a term in the computer industry -- 'VAR' -- value added reseller. The reseller purchases from a centralized provider, packages the product, adds value, and resells it.

You'll notice that a lot of the major dedicated server/colo houses do NOT run their own (for example) web hosting businesses. They simply provide the higher-end services, and let their customers break it down and resell it to even smaller consumers.

Being a reseller is not inherently a bad thing; lots of people trust IBM resellers to deliver high quality equipment, and actually pay a premium over what IBM would charge because the reseller adds VALUE. The reseller knows how to work the IBM system, maybe has extra expertise in the customer's particular area of need, etc.

The key for the reseller is to find a reliable, trustworthy provider, and to add value. Would you want to buy a web site from a kid running his colocated business out of his room? Probably not. But, if that kid happened to be a wizard when it comes to running servers and designing web sites, had a pager, and knew how to get things done at his rented data center space? Maybe. All that adds value, because if you have a problem, you can call up the kid, say 'here's a problem, please take care of it', and he will. Maybe you wouldn't know how to do that on your own :)

Anyhow, resellers are a critical part of this industry. They serve niches that would otherwise have to serve themselves. Be nice to them :)

Yes, more good points about it. As long as it adds value and quality and doesn't take away from it, how can it be a bad thing? It can't, because it's better all around. Again, it just depends. Some people need this step to better their service, some are better off cutting out the middle-man, because it only adds risk to lessening the quality. It all just really depends.