Hello,

We were one of the many who unfortunate enough to sign up for the hostmania offers. We are trying to do a chargeback but our bank has asked for proof. The only proof we have are e-mail communications however the full headers are not visible(we have Ensim 3.0) is there a way to get the full headers on these e-mails? I have tried the "View Headers" option on Outlook but to no avail. Any help would be appreciated.

In Outlook, you should be able to right-click on the message and choose the last option (properties), then the details tab to see headers there.

Originally posted by Chicken
In Outlook, you should be able to right-click on the message and choose the last option (properties), then the details tab to see headers there.



Thanks Chicken

just send my fax out to request a chargeback, i hope my bank has no problem with it.....

Originally posted by hmmwv
just send my fax out to request a chargeback, i hope my bank has no problem with it.....


What are you talking about? Who are you?

Send them a link to this forum and get them to read the posts! lol

Originally posted by hosthero
Send them a link to this forum and get them to read the posts! lol


Something tells me Fleet won't do that

Is there anyone who really got a chargeback? How much time did it take?
I was told by my bank that I'll have to wait 2 months!!! :cartman: :angry: :kaioken: :bawling:

they told us the same, why can't Hostmania issue a refund, even if they "switched" processors, they still have an account with the old one and what kind of processor hasn't heard of web hosting...especially one that takes internet payments?

At what point is something considered fraud?

Sent out my chargeback papers last week. Still waiting to hear from my CC company. They said they'd only contact me with the outcome by snailmail. These European CC people are sooooo behind the times. Since I've sent them the paperwork they've even stopped replying to my emails for some reason.

I WANT MY $370 BACK !!!

If I can't get it with a chargeback, I'm gonna see a laywer (students can get free legal advice here in the Netherlands :) )

hehe
glad i paid through paypal
lol

Originally posted by PVS
Is there anyone who really got a chargeback? How much time did it take?
I was told by my bank that I'll have to wait 2 months!!! :cartman: :angry: :kaioken: :bawling:

Depends on your Credit Card and bank. I deal with Visa and all my chargebacks (a total of 3) were refunded within 3 business days... Note however that all 3 were obvious mistakes/frauds... so it depends on how strong your case is... Always tell them that you tried working with the merchant first 'cos that's what you're supposed to do.... if they don't respond, well, then tell VISA this and usually it takes a few days (actually for you to get a credit)...

Originally posted by George
they told us the same, why can't Hostmania issue a refund, even if they "switched" processors, they still have an account with the old one and what kind of processor hasn't heard of web hosting...especially one that takes internet payments?

If they did refund you, and you decided to follow through with your chargeback they would end up returning double what you paid. The credit card system doesn't work.

If they refunded me obviously I wouldn't follow through with the chargeback. Even if I did it wouldn't go through as records would show that there was a refund on that purchase

My bank has charged me $30 for investigating the case (I have never done a charge back until now) and now they tell emails etc may not be aacceptable as proof :angry:

Problem is that they have never been able to communicate with me through the internet. They do everything by Fax etc and I doubt if they even understand those emails.

I want my money back. Who is responsible :angry:

Neither Ipayments nor eservers or hotmania bother themselves to help.

Which century are we in. They get your money and tell you must get it back yourself. I am tired of all these merchants who do everything they want.

In just this year I have been charged for about $150 of unwanted payments (and $240 this time) . Last case was valuablehosting. They were billing may card 4 onths after I had cancelled my account with them. 1 month after they told me they have refund all my money I received my statement and saw they have only refunded 3 of 4 those charges.

I am tired of these apparent frauds. :angry:


Mac

Well maybe it is time to take action against some of these people, would send a message to others

I thought eservers was on the level and nice, or something or other like that.. yea, that.

Looks like hostmania's site is down

George, did Hostmania have a support forum

I do not recall them having one

Ok, that is what keeps me away from vendors, not being able to contact other customers in a central place =)

since I also didn't get my refund back, I decided to contact Better Business Bureau (http://www.bbbonline.org/) with a detailed description what happend. I also included links to a couple webhostingtalk-threads covering the problems/issues a numerous other people here had with chavvon/hostmania too. Eventually you all should do the same, so bbbonline knows this isn't just a single case, but rather a larger scale problem and that Chavvon's business practices definetly need some 'checking'. I've also sent a copy of the report to paypal, just to make sure they know too what's going on, and eventually they can chargeback the money for me too.


we'll see what happens.. I'll post an update once I got a result.


cheers,
-jbb

My bank has charged me $30 for investigating the caseSince when does the victim have to pay to proove he's lost money? This just seems totally wrong to me and I'd be looking for a new bank.

Hello

I will submit a report about hostmania, eservers and IPayments. I will post results too.

Mac

who will you submit the report to?

bbb.org

Originally posted by George
Looks like hostmania's site is down

they use hostmania.net not .com I believe.

Originally posted by dhabets


Depends on your Credit Card and bank. I deal with Visa and all my chargebacks (a total of 3) were refunded within 3 business days... Note however that all 3 were obvious mistakes/frauds... so it depends on how strong your case is... Always tell them that you tried working with the merchant first 'cos that's what you're supposed to do.... if they don't respond, well, then tell VISA this and usually it takes a few days (actually for you to get a credit)...


I would say it depends very much on the country you live in, as well. I don't live in USA and I wouldn't get my money back for 3 days even if my statement had "$300 charged by BigBadHacker.com" in it :D

Originally posted by wmac
My bank has charged me $30 for investigating the case (I have never done a charge back until now) and now they tell emails etc may not be aacceptable as proof :angry:
Typically in cases like that your $30 will be refunded if your argument proves correct though. Have they mentioned if they will do that?

Originally posted by George
If they refunded me obviously I wouldn't follow through with the chargeback. Even if I did it wouldn't go through as records would show that there was a refund on that purchase

I'm glad to hear that. But many (FAR too many) people go through with a chargeback anyways, and most banks do not check for a refund.

From the host's side, it's pretty hostile territory.

Well this is getting worse and worse, today our bank contacted us. They said they cannot process the chargeback because we initially authorized the transaction. They said they will attempt to recover funds from the merchant for us, but that if they are unsuccessful there is nothing they can do.


What other options do we have?

There is something rotten in the air here.

If their mechant account froze 40k in funds and they do not have it the host does not have it and you can't get it back someone is playing fast and lose with 40K.

I would write all involved, the mechant account, your bank, the host, and anyone else in this deal a certified letter outlining this whole mess and demanding my money then I would send a copy to the FBI, this is called wire fraud.

George: Did you tell the bank that the contract said they'd clearly provide a service and subsequntly failed to provide it, despite repeated attempts by you at getting it and/or canceling? Try showing them the contract (you have a printout, right?) There's a contract here so even if you initiated the trasaction, you didn't get what you should have gotten, therefore the transaction is fradulous.

Also, send a complaint to the BBB and FTC, if you haven't already. It probably won't help you get your money back at this point in time (since it looks like they have nothing to loose if they get bad reviews), but it'll make you feel better. :)

Owen

Luckily I have everything nice and documented in emails. Even 2 very nice emails from Chavvon:

In one he says he never cleared the charge to my CC with his own billing department (I cancelled my long overdue order before my CC was charged).

In another he states I have every right to a refund, but that he can't issue it because his merchant account is frozen.

This boils down to the fact that I believe I have a good case for fraud. They've told me it could be 2 weeks before they can fully process a chargeback and I'll get the results in writing at that time. If I don't get the chargeback I'll be filing a fraud claim with Mastercard's fraud insurance.

If all else fails I will go after Chavvon and hostmania.net. He ows me money and if his company has the assests, he (as far as I know) is obliged to refund me, even if some of his assets have been frozen. I'll see this to the end, even if it only means I get an official piece of paper saying I'm right and Chavvon has been booked for a one way trip to hell.

Tazzman, I don't know the inside details, but from my understanding is

You(generic) pay bill
iPayments charged card
iPayments normally hold money from merchant for x days (could be 3-28 days)
iPayments normally then give money to merchant.

In this case iPayments are still holding the money -- but have frozen/cancelled hostmania's account. Therefore hostmania are literally unable to access account to issue a refund, hence they are saying do a chargeback.

At least thats my understanding -- I would hate to find out that hostmania are the actual culprits.:eek:

Originally posted by Tazzman
Luckily I have everything nice and documented in emails. Even 2 very nice emails from Chavvon:

In one he says he never cleared the charge to my CC with his own billing department (I cancelled my long overdue order before my CC was charged).

In another he states I have every right to a refund, but that he can't issue it because his merchant account is frozen.

This boils down to the fact that I believe I have a good case for fraud. They've told me it could be 2 weeks before they can fully process a chargeback and I'll get the results in writing at that time. If I don't get the chargeback I'll be filing a fraud claim with Mastercard's fraud insurance.

If all else fails I will go after Chavvon and hostmania.net. He ows me money and if his company has the assests, he (as far as I know) is obliged to refund me, even if some of his assets have been frozen. I'll see this to the end, even if it only means I get an official piece of paper saying I'm right and Chavvon has been booked for a one way trip to hell.


Tazzman,

please keep me posted on this, 'cause I definetly won't chavvon get away with this either. if everything else fails, we all here that didn't get their money back, can work together and bring him and his socalled 'company' in front of some court.

my 200+x bucks alone wouldn't be enough to convince a lawyer to start working, but if we work together we might have a better chance.


cheers,
-joerg

What you say about the merchant is correct, but it ultimately is Chavvon's responsibility to see we get our money back, as we payed his company for a service we did not get, we did not pay the merchant for this service, thus bringing the end responsibility to Chavvon and Hostmania.

They could at least try to work together with their merchant to get the money refunded or take the merchant to court for freezing their account and refusing to work with hostmania to find a solution.

This would have to be some kind of class legal action, as my $370 also doesn't really justify getting a laywer (though I'm a student and would get legal aid in my country), but I'm willing to go very far just to proove I'm right and Chavvon is wrong.

We actually signed up with eservers and after our card is charged we see that it is charged by hostmania. Isn't this some kind of fraud?

We haven't actually authorized hostmania to charge our card. We authorized eservers to bill it. Isn't this enough reason for an unauthorized credit card charge ?



Mac

Like I said somethign is rotten in the air here. A merchant account can not take money from you and not give it to the merchant they have to give it ablc to you or give it to the merchant by law they are not allowed to just hold the funds till they decide not to anymore.

If Ipayments has those funds and are holding them then Mastercard Visa would be all over them by now. Someone has that money you guys need to find out who it is.

I believe the guys at eservers are as stuck as you guys are on this, I have dealt with them for a while and they are not crooks now Chavvon I have no idea about. But I would be looking at Hostmania real hard and I would also be demanding some answers from Ipayments. $40K does not just get charged and forgotten about.

Originally posted by wmac
We actually signed up with eservers and after our card is charged we see that it is charged by hostmania. Isn't this some kind of fraud?

We haven't actually authorized hostmania to charge our card. We authorized eservers to bill it. Isn't this enough reason for an unauthorized credit card charge ?



Mac

but you agreed to it.

when you signed up with eservers, i don't know if you noticed, but somewhere on the page, or in the email(s) it said "All payments will be charged to Hostmania" or made to hostmania - i forget the exact wording.

I looked at their special offer advertisement and I did not see the word hostmania on it.

As their signup page is not up anymore I can not see it but I think it was not until I received payment receipt that I saw below text at the end of their email:



Thank You for Signing Up!
eServers dot Biz (Internap)


--
**** All payments will be charged as Hostmania ****


Does anyone remember?

Mac

yes, that's what i was talknig about.

I have to agree with Monte, there's something not quite right with the whole scenario.

iPayments (they don't look that small) are they or are they not holding the money - of course they wont tell the payees. If they were violating visa/mastercard status then surely the cc giants would have jumped on them.

Hostmania, why did the account get frozen, cancelled ? Are they still delivering servers ? What's their story -- only Chavvon can answer that and he doesn't say much.

It would be nice to know the real story, when I speak to Chavvon it seems things are still running, things still happening and so I have no reason (at the moment) to think something is wrong with Hostmania.

-- While writing this I did a search for ipayments on google. http://www.against-ipayments.com/ -- I'm not saying that this is the case today (it does say new management) but interesting ...

Cases there seem totally consistent with what Hostmania has described.

Originally posted by onestar
It would be nice to know the real story, when I speak to Chavvon it seems things are still running, things still happening and so I have no reason (at the moment) to think something is wrong with Hostmania.

how you reach the Chavvon? because I allways talk only with answering machine :) I leave few messages, and never get response. even via email or suport ticket. maybe you can PM me personal Chavvon number? because today I celebrating mounth from server order :) and I get no one message from payment :(

(From the movie "Friday") "DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ipayments is a bad looking site"

how you reach the Chavvon? because I allways talk only with answering machine

I've not YET had a problem getting in touch with him yet, mostly via email and few times on the phone. Nothing special, the international number listed on the contact pages. Longest I've had to wait for a response has been 24 hours when I couldn't get a reply via email and no-one answered the phone.

Sorry no secret :eek2:

onestar what number you use? this one (866) HOSTMANIA ? or this one 972.625.6784 ?

the support number 972-299-9442,

onestar I know. but on 972-299-9442 allways only answering machine :( or I have bad luck...

Cases there seem totally consistent with what Hostmania has described.Not quite. According to Chavvon, hostmania's account wasn't shut down because of chargebacks, but just because ipayments thought they were moving too much money for a legitamate business, which is total BS to me.

I believe somebody from this board tried talking to ipayments to get a refund and they just basicly said it's none of their business and to work it out with hostmania. That means a lot when they don't seem to want to talk with hostmania any more than they want to talk to the people money is owed to.

Hooray For the Pay Pal Debit Card People , It only took them 1 week to get me my money back :stickout


Dear Doug,


We have received your affidavit of loss on the card


PayPal was able to issue a chargeback to the merchant, "Host Mania." This
chargeback will result in a credit to your PayPal Account on September 5, 2002 .

Who says Pay Pal Sucks :eek:


:pimp:

ouch it looks like we are doubly screwed, both by hostmania and ipayments

well... my bank is processing chargeback now but they cant guarantee if I can get the money back or not.

if chargeback failed , I would ask eserver.biz to either offer me a p4 server for one month free or refund me the money

refund your money ? :) I wish they could do that.

Money is frozen in hostmania's account and this is eserver's wrong decision to sell something for someone else with their own name.

I personally did not trusted hostmania when they offered their inap servers but when eservers offered them I did.

I think eservers is the most responsible for those who purchased servers through them because they have trusted them and have actually given their money to eservers.

Mac

Hi everybody,

I promised I would post my results with my chargeback against hostmania when I got new information.


Well, first of all, I must say it took longer than the 1 week that my bank told me. However , I received the chargeback money in my account on 9/3/02. I was requested by my bank a few days ago to send them the email that chavvon sent me in which he told me to get a chargeback. She said it would speed up the process and I guess it did. Anyway, just want to let you know the chargeback process works (as ugly as it may be). It took about 2 weeks for me to get my money credited back to my account. Not too bad; certainly could have been worse.

Hope you guys all get your money back in short order. Wishing you the best!

Sincerely,
Shanon

I'm glad for you! Thanks for updating us...that gives me some hope :D

Shanon, may I ask who your bank is? Not to intrude, just curious (my bank is dragging their feet)

"Shanon, may I ask who your bank is? Not to intrude, just curious (my bank is dragging their feet)"

my bank is OCTFCU (orange county teachers federal credit union) and it was one of those "mastermoney" debit credit cards that function as a credit card but actually directly debit my checking account. I must say I was a little worried because I had heard these debit cards don't offer the same amount of protection as a normal credit card.

Hope everything goes well for you in the end.

I hate to say it but I'm afraid this is going to be one of those times where the first people get their money back, but the people who delay in getting their chargebacks done might possibly end up getting really screwed when the funds run low.

There are many possible reasons I can think of for the amount of money in the account not to match the sum total of chargebacks: partial payments to hostmania, chargeback fees, misc ipayment account fees, such as closure or non-compliance fees. Plus it looks like there is no one willing to take responsibility for the fiasco: hostmania seems to think it is ipayment's fault and ipayment's position is unknown except that we know they closed hostmania's account for suspected fraud. Thus there will be no one willing to stand up and take the bullet for the customers when the money runs dry.

The people who actually got servers but then decided the service sucks may be the ones in real trouble of getting a refund. That was a key issue for my bank. Did you receive any service at all they asked more than once.

thats when legal action would be in order

Hello,

Just wanted to tell that my charge back request went thru today and I received my money back.

I wish the best for others.

Regards,
Mac

Hostmania has filled out all the paperwork for charge backs, put Ipayment hasn't returned our phone calls for 30 days.

They thought we were selling crack filled servers on fradulent credit cards or something.

contact me at chavvon@hostmania.net and I can talk to your cc company directly to speed along the process.

Chavvon