I wanted to quickly recommend, and rant at the same time.

I spent a lot of money on designers recently, many who I acquainted through WHT.

I recommend these two outstanding designers, who are professional, on time and full value for what they charge:

http://www.4design.tv
http://www.loadingdeck.com

But, the sub 500 USD designers - some of them are just pathetic, and you will never see what you paid for. I am not going to list them all and avoid a public confrontation, but they are around. Some are even just new members that add you on MSN/AIM and they ask for work showing their supposed list of URLs.

I do realize there are some good budget designers I purchased from (such as zoodia) but sorry, there are just too many of these amateur cons.

You know what, Templatemonster are much better than most budget designers around WHT.

I now hate web designers in general. They imitate other people's work, charge for it, many are dodgy scammers who you never hear from after a few days. I paid a lot of money to many designers for the last few years on WHT and about 25 percent of my money has gone to complete amateurs who never completed their work. By the time I win the paypal disputes, there are no funds to be collected from their accounts.

Do not search for a budget designer on WHT. As I learnt over time, the risks are just too high.

Either buy a pre-made template which is definitely unique and from an established seller, or make one yourself. Or even better, save yourself some money and go for a proper web designer.

The problem with many budget designers is they don't have the foresight to see that a budget design model cannot be sustained into the future without a great deal of care. You're right - Zoodia is definitely an exception, and I've had the pleasure of working with him and have some insight into how he's structured his business so we can live on that razor's edge without putting his clients at risk.

But that is atypical, and most budget designers are seriously undervaluing skills that are quite professional in nature in order to get a quick start. It's too easy to be a victim of your own business model when you're only looking as far ahead as your next few, cheap clients and not looking at the big picture. That's why established design companies charge what they do. As Vito (demodemo) has said many times "I'm not rich enough that I can afford to buy cheap things" (more or less - I'm paraphrasing :) ).

Chances are the designers who charged you less either ran away from the trade thinking it's not a place to make a career (when in fact, it's not the industry but their model that made it that way), or ended up getting a job with a design company that charges professional prices for professional work.

It's a shame how much great raw talent gets wasted along the way. :( *sigh* Get me started on this issue and I swear I'll rant all day about it!

Cheers, I needed this thread to express my anger.

You know, the designers who inflicted this - they do not realize that the anger and the anguish from stolen money does not disappear easily. Every time I remember these gits, even from years back - makes my blood boil. Got them noted in a blackbook and they will hear from me in the future :D

It's not just designers. A member recently sold me 4 vbulletin owned licenses here at WHT. Appears later that he got them from "a source" and is being investigated by Jelsoft. He promised to refund everything. I got one out of 4. The rest he can't pay, this was his exact response:

I really wish I could pay you but I am really broke right now without a job. I'm so sorry you got stuck in such a situation but I myself did not want this to happen.

What can I say to that? If he's a tramp and already spent the money... Argh. I'm just saying - be careful when you do any kind of transaction on WHT. Even if you feel assured by number of posts or join date. You will just read this and forget it, but you might just thank me later.

Well I was wondering when someone would pipe up and say something on this matter, I have noticed a vast influx of shall I just say 'budget' offers in the request section and don't get me wrong here, there probably are some talented designers here that for whatever reason can afford to work on a minimum but stirred in with the mix you have also got some more undesirables and, let me be quite blunt here, members how really haven't got a clue.
Like PM said it is such a crying shame because there is some very good raw talent here that is being overshadowed. I myself have virtually stopped replying to offers of work, mostly because I cannot compete the prices and secondly I really do not want to be involved.
There are some little pointers that you can follow though to try to avoid disappointment, like minimal post counts may suggest that the member hasn't really made an effort to include themself into the community before applying for work. Also we should encourage hirers to close post requests with comments and/or reviews on how their liason went.
I must just say though it is not all completely one sided some hirers do not help themselves, for instance I remember seeing a post for a 'Top Quality Professional Designer Required' underpar designers need not apply, then in the post required that he only paid a maximum of $75 USD for a logo and template of the highest quality.? I had to chuckle to myself...:).
I would say though not all freelancers are bad, I personally am one and I am one because I love doing it and I'd do it whether I am getting paid or not, its my passion.

I am sad to hear that you have been scammed on WHT for budget design but hopefully this will lead to a change on WHT and the mentality that you can't get a nice design - fairly cheap - along with great service and reliability from the designer. As with all things, much like hosting, you do get what you pay for.

But I guess I wanted to chime in to say that even though there are several designers on WHT that don't really give a darn about you or your site, there are many on WHT that truly do want their clients to succeed because when they are successful, it helps the designer's company grow as well. It is hard to really pinpoint them though but hopefully doing searches on here, reading comments and how they respond on threads, recommendations, etc will help guide you to the right ones.

There are a lot of designers that charge very low prices because they are kids or students that don't do this for a living so it's not a big deal to them and they could just up and vanish on you. (not all - but many). Just be careful.

Keep in mind that paypal doesn't offer refunds for services anymore. I recently got burned in a deal over at DP where the guy got banned, and his site went offline after I made a transaction with him. Even after I filed a paypal dispute, paypal wouldn't go after him because he was offering a service.

I would stick to those people who have good reviews, and have complete many other transactions. If the guy is just getting started in the field, he needs to lower his price until he builds his reputation.

4design.tv is the most beautiful website I hav ever seen...

I would stick to those people who have good reviews, and have complete many other transactions. If the guy is just getting started in the field, he needs to lower his price until he builds his reputation.

I may have missed something here but it seems like you just came in here and endorsed the very thing everyone is upset about. Sounds like you are saying that people should offer up low end pricing for high quality work just because they are not established in the field.

The price should be based on the quality not on experience. I've seen plenty of times when someone with just a few sites under their belt have put to shame the designs of someone with years of experience.

As for this whole rant going on, I understand the need to let out your frustration but honestly believe that it will not change anything.

I recently received a barter offer for two websites that were needed a.s.a.p. This woman gave me the details on one of the sites she needed done and it was basically a slightly improved rip off of poetry.com (submit poems, create bio w/pic, rate/rank poems, online store). The other site was similar in the amount of work needed to create it.

So, what was she offering as the barter for these two sites? Any pervs around can put their hand down, it wasn't that.

A voucher for a 3-day/2-night trip to Vegas (hotel + air) and two tickets to the Roseanne Barr show.

After turning her down and informing her that the trip would not even cover the cost of one of those sites, she got a little nasty and insisted it was more valuable than both websites together.

Needless to say, I did not waste another minute trying to come to a deal with her.

Lowball offers in the web design field go both ways and will never stop. You just have to filter through the garbage to find the good stuff.

If the guy is just getting started in the field, he needs to lower his price until he builds his reputation.The price should be based on the quality not on experienceJust to mitigate Niteblade's statement a bit, while you are correct that experience and quality are not necessarily dependent upon each other, it is much more common that inexperienced designers will not be as high quality as more experienced ones. Taken generally, it's not unusual for brand new designers to compete primarily on price instead of experience/quality, because price becomes their only advantage. It just so happens it can be a significant advantage.

So you build up some savings, take a loss at first, get a few clients under your belt, and then move into a business model where you're doing professional work for professional compensation. A short time spent building your reputation is fine, normal even. But a contractor or small firm is a business and needs to think like one in the end. With a few rare exceptions, a long-term strategy based on competing for work solely on price is going to work out badly for the business and for the business's clients, as we've seen time and time again.

As with so many things, "you get what you pay for" is usually true in web design. If the site matters, pay for quality - it's worth it in the end. If the site's unimportant, then just get a template.

Forgive me for getting involved, but thought you might like a view from a "budget" designer.

I'm a 16 year old student, who does some freelance web design as a hobbie in my spare time...

As it is, I'm unestablished, yet to do any work for large business, and very new to the design business. Due to this, it's hard for me to get any "big shot" deals or charge big money for my work, so why should I waste time by designing, putting $1000 price tags on things and them not selling.

I value my work based on what I feel it's worth. I serve customers who can't afford a large enough budget to warrant hiring some of the "pros" on these sites, and those who are new to the web industry, and want a cheaper designer to get things started. They see my portfolio, they know what they're getting, and I'm yet to have a dis-satisfied customer.

I'm finding it hard to see what the main points of your "rant" (although it is lovely to see people let out and rant about things, keep it up :D)...

I hate with a passion anyone, designer or client, who scams people and does not deliver what's promised...

The beauty of portfolios is you can usually see roughly what standard you should expect for your money, and choose wether you wish to pay the price offered for the standard of work on display.

I regularly do sub 100$ work... Clients see what they're getting for there money from my portfolio, and I feel get good value for their money. I don't pressure people into hiring me or anything - They see me work and know my prices, if they're happy with them they can hire me; if they want more then I can offer, they can go higher.

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Audigex,

I met about 20-30 budget designers from WHT who would tell me that:

- they are talented,
- care so much for their clients,
- work really hard to achieve clients satisfaction,
- will meet all their deadlines,
- will be there whenever you need them.

About half of them do not have a portfolio website.

About a quarter of them have a portfolio in progress.

The remaining quarter of them have a scrappy, poor portfolio.

Many of them you will talk to via MSN instant messaging. I have to say my good experiences with designers came from those who I conferred only via email. The real professionals / good freelancers do not MSN you their latest screenshots calling you "m8". Nearly all the scamming designers I met are through MSN. Be careful of this.

If you are looking for a designer, always ask for their full name, location, phone number, URL address. Speak to them on the phone if you are not sure. Never take on a designer without a substantial portfolio website. (DO NOT ACCEPT lists of images/urls they apparently did)

And still you are taking a risk, trust me.

James Lee,

I'm actually a designer, not a buyer...

I completely agree about the risks involved with unestablished designers; Yes, you should be completely sure you can trust and should hire these people.

As a designer, I genuinly do care that the client gets what they want when they want...

It's all about the user having the right intelligence and perception of the designer to make a decision... Should you really be buying from someone without a conclusive portfolio of their works that "sells" their design capability to you? I wouldn't think so. Should you buy from someone without the correct professional attitude and maturity when dealing with you? Again, no.

I'd probably be called a "budget" designer... Yet I always display a 100% mature attitude with the clients, display a full portfolio and am happy to give most contact details or information about myself that the client may require.

There are risks with being scammed by designers, like there are risks about doing anything online. But with a sensible attitude and a bit of perservering, I'd like to believe there are those of us out there who won't let you down when it comes to budget design work.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, just because someones price range is low to moderate, doesn't mean for an instant they're a scammer. There are those of us out there dedicated to providing a service to the best of our ability

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