say a company has 2 internet feeds... but the 2nd feed would NEVER get used (to a better carrier might i add) unless the main feed (to cogent/etc) goes down...

could they be considered multi-homed?

i say no because ... there is no benefit to the users that would be evident in a truly multi-homed network... makes the network seem like it has better access to end users, which wouldn't be the case at all... the entire purpose of multi-homing...

they could call it a redundant network i figure, but not multihomed...

anybody agree? disagree? why?

I would consider it a redundant network too.

Multihomed is where the network is BGP enabled to take the fastest route.

I would say it’s just a redundant network as well.
I just don’t understand why people would do this; I mean if you paying for the line why not use it. Sure it may make your costs go up but you have to pay for that backup line anyway.
Just charge a little more and if network performance is important to your customers they will be willing to pay it.


Also BGP works off AS numbers not the fastest route, it takes the path of the least AS numbers and that’s not always the fastest route.

I think it's the least amount of hops (don't quote me as I am not a true network person).

My defininition of multi-homed is having an apartment in the big smoke, a challet on the ski slopes and a beach house by the sea :)

Hello,

OK, The point of having a backup line is should pipe A fail for whatever reason, Pipe B which is being un-used will then kick in :)

Originally posted by MN-Carl
Hello,

OK, The point of having a backup line is should pipe A fail for whatever reason, Pipe B which is being un-used will then kick in :) but as the previous replies suggest, this is merely called redundancy, not multi-homing.

Originally posted by MN-Carl
Hello,

OK, The point of having a backup line is should pipe A fail for whatever reason, Pipe B which is being un-used will then kick in :)

I don't think this was ever disputed...

cuz i mean... there are so many providers that i've seen (especially a few on here)... that are running 'cogent datacenters'.. and ya go to their website... and it says multi-homed... so then ya go and ask their sales contact who they are multi-homed with and you'll get 1 of two answers: <name of some big provider> or its getting installed at the end of the month (seems to be when stuff gets installed, no matter what month ur in *sarcasm*)...

so then... going to traceroute.org or something, finding a traceroute site on that provider, you do a traceroute to the datacenter... and it still goes over cogent... going back to the sales contact about this... all they say is that they're multihomed with them, and this feed only kicks in when primary is dead...

ERR

Nope normal Hops have nothing to do with how BGP works either.
AS number of hops yes.

Lets say for example you take Yipes and UUNet and BGP them.

Yipes BGPs to level3 and Genuity, both have AS numbers then Yipes adds their AS number that’s 2 AS numbers before it gets to your router.

Now you take UUNet and say they only have one AS number before it gets to your router.

Now you Bgp them together adding your AS number and UUNet will take all the traffic because it’s only 2 AS numbers where Yipes is 3 AS numbers.

BGP is just not that smart it will not take the best or shortest path in many cases.

I am not a network person either but I do have to work close with them and this is how it has been explained to me over and over.



Back to the subject of this thread, backup lines are not free they don’t just put lines in and hope your other provider fails so they can make some money.
So maybe like was said they really don’t have them?
If so I question why they are not used to pass traffic.

Netdude,

You may want to do some more researching using online dictionary's, since it seems like you have time on your hands.

The definition of Multihomed is that the network is on multiple networks, not only one.

What you are describing is load balancing via BGP4, in which its takes the faster route.
This seems to be what you are looking/asking for.

The following online technical dictionaries describe it per the professionals.
As you can see, nowhere does it mention BGP, or taking the faster route.
Only that the server is connected to 2 or more networks.

http://searchnetworking.techtarget....i212611,00.html

"Multihomed describes a computer host that has multiple IP addresses to connected networks. A multihomed host is physically connected to multiple data links that can be on the same or different networks. "

or

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/M/multihomed.html

"An adjective used to describe a host that is connected to two or more networks or has two or more network addresses. For example, a network server may be connected to a serial line and a LAN or to multiple LANs."

can't get to that first url... but the definition of it... thats defining a multihomed computer, not a multihomed network... heh... so thats irrelavent... same for the 2nd... heh... also... BGP... has nothing to do with taking the fastest route... as clearly described above, it has to do with taking the route that transverses the fewest ASNs to reach the destination...

okie? so... no, your cute little datacenter is not multi-homed... nice try...

but say we use your definition... your datacenter is NOT on multiple networks... if one feed is up, the other is down... hence, never on more than any 1 network at any given time... heh...

I can see you have your mind made up, and can see you are one of those people that argue about how marketing is done.

Read what it says,

"Multihomed describes a computer host that has multiple IP addresses to connected networks. A multihomed host is physically connected to multiple data links that can be on the same or different networks. "

or

"An adjective used to describe a host that is connected to two or more networks or has two or more network addresses. For example, a network server may be connected to a serial line and a LAN or to multiple LANs."


Or let me put it in teenage/kid language, as best I can for you.

A computer host (aka Server, which is a computer) has multiple IP addresses (Ours are from ARIN which are broadcasted to both networks), and is connected to multiple network links (aka Cogent and Epik).

Hence it IS NOT connected only to 1 network, and therefore considered multihomed according to the definition.

If it was connected only to Cogent, then it would be advertised as Cogent only, and would be considered a non-multihomed network, since it only had the 1 network connection.

Nowhere above does it mention that both networks are/have to active at the same time.
Only that it is connected to 2 or more networks, which it is.

Like I mentioned before, what you are looking for is a load balanced network, where it runs on multiple networks at one time, this also can be considered multihomed, but is usually advertised as load balanced or a BGP network.

It is just not us, this is how the networks are advertised, and have been for the companies I have worked for.

SrvOutsource, you're correct on this.

By definition, multi-homed means that your network is attached to more than one network.

Granted, the best practice in multi-homing is to do some best path routing, it certainly isn't what defines a multi-homed host.

For instance, here is how we route our multi-homed network:

3 connections total. One to WorldCom, one to Qwest, and one to TouchAmerica.

On our outgoing data, we allow our router to choose the best path for most routes. In the few cases where BGP fails to make the correct decision (it doesn't "know" about latency and IP hops, only AS hops), we manually tell our router which path gets the outgoing data.

On our incoming data, we have much less control, but we still have some control. For the incoming data, we have decided that nobody likes to see Worldcom in a traceroute, so we split all incoming data between Qwest and TouchAmerica. TouchAmerica happens to be very well connected to Worldcom, so we only add one hop to traceroutes from Worldcom customers.

To the uneducated, doing traceroutes from outside our network would only reveal Qwest and TouchAmerica. When you add traceroutes from inside our network to multiple outside networks, you get a more complete picture that includes all three.

But, if you always trace to and from the same network, you will always see the same path into and out of our network. The only reason that would change is if we reoptimized our routing or there was an outage.

Welcome to the world of asymetric routing. It happens all the time, but unless you know what to look for, you'd probably never see it. The Internet is not a straight path from point A to point B and never has been.

Take a look at a BGP routing table sometime. Study it. Then go look at some BGP looking glasses around the world. You'll begin to get a feel for the complexity of dynamic routing and why a few simple traceroutes very rarely reveal the real picture.

As long as company is connected to two or more networks, the dictionary says they are multi-homed. It doesn't matter if it is just a fail-over configuration or if they are doing load balancing and/or best/shortest path routing. Fail-over is still multi-homing, though maybe not the most desirable from a customer stand point.

From a hosting company stand point, however, it is good financial sense. Why send the bulk of your data down the most expensive line?

Only do it if you have to or the low cost line isn't providing acceptable performance. Thats where it gets sticky with Cogent. You could run into a situation that Cogent isn't down, but one of their peering points is running into congestion. A simple fail-over setup won't detect and compensate for that. BGP by itself is not capable of detecting slowness, only hard outages longer than its route expiration setting.

Enter the route optimization box. NetVMG and a bunch of others have developed helper boxes for BGP that do detect slowness, congestion, and IP hops. These boxes don't live by what the customer dictates, however. Their settings are controlled by the hosting company running the box. A hosting company could still screw up on the settings and force all traffic down a low quality line.

Bottom line, if you care about the hosting companies network, make sure you know how it works and know the people running it. But for crying out loud, if you're paying $9.95 a month, don't go bugging management about their network. They won't be happy about talking to you for such a small fee. If they're worth their snot, they'll have better things to do, like running their network.

If you're just paying a small amount each month, or aren't a customer yet, ask the sales rep to put you in touch with one of the tech support guys that deals with network issues. They'll usually be glad to tell you about how the network is put together.

To sum it up, if you have two providers. You're only using one, until that fails. The second will kick in. You call it multi-homed.

By definition it's correct. I wouldn't be that stupid, but whatever. You can call it whatever you want, because you're running the company. It's basically a good way for you to get sales, but you should be calling it a redundant network.

But, if you're trying to sell your service like that..It's like telling people you have Cogent XP.

so you're saying i could have a ISDN connection to worldcom, a 100Mbps from cogent and a 56k frame relay to verio and i can say i have a redundant multi-homed network? well, i guess i could even by using my definition...

but from the definition used by the more professional companies, a multihomed network is only when the data has the possibility of using more than one network... with serveroutsource.net, the data does NOT even have the ability to use more than one network... never... hence no more than one "home"... at any given time...

i guess this argument is like the "the server is colocated and the datacenter has a 100Mbps connection to the carrier's regional backbone, which is an OC48... so, is the server on a 100Mbps connection or an OC48?"

heh... some will say its 100Mbps because it even never go above 100Mbps... but some will say OC48 because that sounds cooler and impress clients even though it has no real meaning, and maybe get a few sales in the process... lol... in the end, its is misleading... n u know it...

netdude

i'm a customer of serveroutsource and i'm happy with his services. but i'm not reselling space, it's for one of our client we are making infrastructures for.

if you are not happy with (depending on your last 3 threads):
- worldcom
- cogent
- serveroutsource

just go elsewhere, don't **** us with your psy-problems. thanx.

ever since b4 serveroutsource posted on this thread, the general consensus was that what he has is not multihoming... plain and simple... heh... this thread was about multihoming 'till he brought his company up... ... ...

btw... i actually like worldcom... they're on my 'provider list' as 'excellent'... (grades from: pathetic, poor, okay, excellent, premium)... heh

i'm a customer of serveroutsource and i'm happy with his services. but i'm not reselling space, it's for one of our client we are making infrastructures for.

Great. You want a cookie? I got some my girl made, they're still hot.


if you are not happy with (depending on your last 3 threads):
- worldcom
- cogent
- serveroutsource


He's not saying he's not happy with it. He's saying it's not multi-homed as told. I agree.

just go elsewhere, don't **** us with your psy-problems. thanx.

Why don't you read more RATHER than responding and not understanding just what exactly people are saying?

netdude is only posting threads to bash other companies: hosting companies and network companies. i don't think this forum rules allow this. that's all.

netdude is only posting threads to bash other companies: hosting companies and network companies. i don't think this forum rules allow this. that's all.

This thread wasn't directed towards the company you use for services until they came here and posted.

"netdude is only posting threads to bash other companies: hosting companies and network companies. i don't think this forum rules allow this. that's all."

So if WHT bans netdude for badmouthing cogent shouldn't you be banned for badmouthing netdude?

Ok guys, the moon is made of cheese and you're only multi-homed if you send data down all paths. :D Yup. Uh-huh. :rolleyes:

Are you going to dispute the meaning of a the word network now? Get real.

You want best path routing, not multi-homing.:cartman:

I agree. Best path routing the best thing to do if you can.

What I'm trying to do here is educate some of the less educated so that they know what to ask for. If you ask for multi-homing, but are expecting best path routing, you could very well end up with something you're not expecting.

You can only do best path routing if you are multi-homed, but just because you are multi-homed doesn't mean you do best path routing.

If I say you have a car, does everyone assume you drive a Ferrari?:rolleyes:

You'll also note that most of the people that agreed with NetDude aren't network or BGP admins, just average users.

Do you really believe that everyone that drinks wine knows how to make it? Would you drink it if they tried?

Ok guys, the moon is made of cheese and you're only multi-homed if you send data down all paths. Yup. Uh-huh.

Well, technically the you're really only multi-homed if you send data over more than 1 path. But we don't really have to get in-depth with it. There's more ways to make a house than one.

Are you going to dispute the meaning of a the word network now? Get real.

mmm.. ?

What I'm trying to do here is educate some of the less educated so that they know what to ask for. If you ask for multi-homing, but are expecting best path routing, you could very well end up with something you're not expecting.

blah blah blah blah

You can only do best path routing if you are multi-homed, but just because you are multi-homed doesn't mean you do best path routing.

One could also say, you can only have a multi-homed network if two networks are turned on. But.. this applies to the first response. (More than one way to build a house.)

If I say you have a car, does everyone assume you drive a Ferrari?

I think that's totally different and has no connection to what we are talking about.

You'll also note that most of the people that agreed with NetDude aren't network or BGP admins, just average users.

Oh really? Sherlock.. can we have some proof on this one please? Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean we're wrong. Doesn't mean you're wrong either.

Do you really believe that everyone that drinks wine knows how to make it? Would you drink it if they tried?

You're bad at this analogy thing, please stop.

The fact is this:

If you have data flying out one provider, and none flying out the second (until the first one goes down). That makes you more redundant than multi-homed.

If you really want to get technical. What percent of the time does data travel over provider #1? What percent of the time does data travel over #2? What is bigger? By how much?

But.. I'm not saying that I'am 100% correct. I'm just telling you how I see it. It doesn't mean either of us, are wrong. That's why these discussions get retarded. Because geeks have to be correct.

The way I understood it defined was the Fibre comes from two completely different places (ie different companies) so should one go down the other can help out. Some people do have tier 2 and 3 networks, now they may have two connections however further up the network it connects to the "mother provider". Should that provider go down both networks are down. I would say this is not a multihomed network - but rather a redundant connection.

This is just how i understand it to be so don't take my word for it :D

It's really interesting to read some of the nit-picking and petty bickering that takes place on these forums.

I operate the network that provides bandwidth to ServerOutsource.net as well as a couple of other colo providers in Miami. The ASN for our network is 11938 and it is a multihomed network (by all of the definitions provided).

Here are some IPs that you can trace to:

64.83.96.2 (Epik - Level3)
64.83.100.1 (Epik - Level3)
64.83.104.1 (Cogent)
64.83.111.1 (Cogent)

Now, if you go to ARIN (www.arin.net), you'll find that 64.83.96.0/20 is an direct allocation to WholesaleColo (the company from which I took over the network).

So, we are actively routing over both Epik (which is a Level3 reseller) and Cogent. However, we choose to treat Epik as a premium offering. So, those customers that pay a base price are primarily routed over Cogent with redundancy from Epik and those customers that pay a premium price are actively routed over Epik with redundancy from Cogent.

In any case, the network as a whole is multi-homed, but certain blocks are primarily routed differently then other blocks.

Now, (and you can call this marketing fluff or use sarcasm or whatever, but...) we are in the process of adding connectivity to Verio, which we expect to be in place by the 1st part of next month (notice not the end of the month :) ). At which point, we may do some best-path routing in addition to our existing multi-home networking.

Now, if you have any additional questions about our specific network, please feel free to address them to me directly.

Shaun Gregory
CEO
WholesaleBandwidth, Inc.
shaun@wholesalebandwidth.com

It's really interesting to read some of the nit-picking and petty bickering that takes place on these forums.

I really don't think it's nit-picking.

Now, (and you can call this marketing fluff or use sarcasm or whatever, but...) we are in the process of adding connectivity to Verio, which we expect to be in place by the 1st part of next month (notice not the end of the month ). At which point, we may do some best-path routing in addition to our existing multi-home networking.

Well, if you can read. Go back in the thread, we were told .. nothing goes over Epik unless Cogent is down. So that's why it's gone this far. So.. we're going by that, and that isn't multi-homed in my book. But.. hey anything for some people to get some sales, eh?

Now, if you have any additional questions about our specific network, please feel free to address them to me directly.

Your website is down.

Glad to see you're having fun jayjay. Do you actually run a BGP network or is this all guesswork for you?

Nobody "turns off" a network. They simply change the way they advertise it by BGP so that it gets used when and how the network designer intended it to be used.

Oh really? Sherlock.. can we have some proof on this one please?

Did you even read the thread jayjay? One directly admitted to not being a network guy.

In another recent thread, netdude showed a traceroute he thought was weird as evidence that Worldcom was having problems. As it turns out, the traceroute was merely showing multi-path routing in the portions of the traceroute that passed through redundant links.

And if this wasn't up for discussion, then why did netdude ask for input?

Lots of people held the opinion that the world was flat. Didn't make them right, did it?

"Lots of people held the opinion that the world was flat. Didn't make them right, did it?"

jay clearly stated that what he believed wasn't 100% correct...it's just what he believes is right. "But.. I'm not saying that I'am 100% correct. I'm just telling you how I see it. It doesn't mean either of us, are wrong."

that's how he sees it, and if he sees the world as being flat, that's fine with him. if he see's it as being round, that's just as well too.

If I say you have a car, does everyone assume you drive a Ferrari?

well... thats a good one... lets elaborate on this... lets say you got a ferrari replica... does that give you the right to call it a ferrari? the average consumer won't be able to tell the difference... but in actual operation... two different worlds...

those customers that pay a base price are primarily routed over Cogent with redundancy from Epik ...

so what you're saying is that unless people pay more, they don't get the benefit of the epik connection... right? but then when advertising, why not clearly mention that instead of just saying "multihoming"... ? (this is applicable to all colos/etc)... because now you're trying to sell the average user the ferrari replica saying its a ferrari... you are conveniently forgetting the word "replica"...

Glad to see you're having fun jayjay. Do you actually run a BGP network or is this all guesswork for you?


Roger that. I've passed my CCNA, I'm moving onto the CCNP. There is one other one I'd like to take after that.

Our primary network is run off of Internap, which I don't have much control over that.

We have a few other networks that have peer1, williams, verio, nationalnet, and level3 coming in. I help run these, and they are not 100% ours.


Nobody "turns off" a network. They simply change the way they advertise it by BGP so that it gets used when and how the network designer intended it to be used.


Figure of speech, to better explain to people who don't know what we're talking about. I'm sorry you took it so serious.

And if this wasn't up for discussion, then why did netdude ask for input?

It may be. But this thread was just asking for definitions of multi-homed connections. ServerOutsource.net had to take it personal.

Lots of people held the opinion that the world was flat. Didn't make them right, did it?

If you can show proof on how something is right backed up with facts, then wonderful. But all you're telling me is what you think...
You're battling an opinion, you will never come out as "correct" on this matter. Because there is no set definition on multi-homed (maybe in your mind.), there is just what's good for sales and what's good for the customers.

You still suck at analogies.

Jason,

I did not take it personal, but netdude keep it up on an ad I posted, and then posted a link to this thread to tell me what the true meaning of mulithomed was.

If you read my original post on this thread (Page 1), all I did was post the offical set definitions from 2 online technical dictionary's, and there links on this thread.

I did not mention my network in this post.

Netdude is the one who made it personal again with his reply.

You are correct. Accept my apology on that.

But by the definition you gave us of your network, I still wouldn't consider it multi-homed.

Jason,

No problem.

Our network is connected to 2 networks, which according to the online definition can be considered multihomed.

This is also how all of our competition advertises there networks that are configured the same way.

Companies that I have worked for in the past, that are configured to take the shortest/fastest route, always advertised that as being a BGP4 network.

Our network is connected to 2 networks, which according to the online definition can be considered multihomed.

Ok. But if you pull that definition apart a bit. Your customers aren't really connected to 2 networks. Your router is. I mean, they are kind of. But no data is going out that second, so I would think it'd be more redundant than multi-homed?

I guess everybody has their own way of explaining things, and this falls under that.

Jason,

I guess it just one of those marketing things.

Sorta like 56k modems.
(I know this is OT, totally different, and I probably put my foot in it again, but has anyone ever read the small print, that the modem doesn't actually run at 56kbps?)

Sorta like 56k modems.
(I know this is OT, totally different, and I probably put my foot in it again, but has anyone ever read the small print, that the modem doesn't actually run at 56kbps?)

Depends where you are : ) Where I live I'd probley be lucky to sign on at 24.4 .. thank god for Cable in the mountains! : )

Originally posted by jayjay


Ok. But if you pull that definition apart a bit. Your customers aren't really connected to 2 networks. Your router is. I mean, they are kind of. But no data is going out that second, so I would think it'd be more redundant than multi-homed?


Except that data is going out the second network on an active basis. The customers are connected to two networks and their traffic can be routed over either one based on various criteria.

In my opinion, a provider must be multi-homed in order to provide redundancy. What constitutes a multi-homed network is having connectivity to at least 2 different upstream networks. You can't offer redundancy unless there are at least 2 networks you are connected to.

Shaun Gregory
CEO
WholesaleBandwidth, Inc.

Originally posted by netdude

so what you're saying is that unless people pay more, they don't get the benefit of the epik connection... right?

No, that is not right. Anybody who pays the base price has the benefit of Epik if Cogent fails. However, if customers pay a premium price, they are then routed over Epik instead of Cogent (just the inverse of the base offering).

Shaun Gregory
CEO
WholesaleBandwidth, Inc.

You still suck at analogies.

:stickout

Doesn't mean I didn't have fun using them, though.