Where is the perl board :(
IMHO ASP and PHP are perl wanna-bes :(

Originally posted by MaB
Where is the perl board :(
IMHO ASP and PHP are perl wanna-bes :(

Silly thing to say about wannabes...but if we are going to have a php board, guess it should be in the cards to have a perl board...then if we have a perl board, we might want to think about a python board...I think this opens up an unnecessary can of worms.

So why should PHP be treated so special. Perl was around way before php and is much better for sys-admining - imho

Python isnt a common language (atleast not as common as perl or php) - PHP doesnt really help run businesses, i dont think you can write a php script and run it from the command line to help you do many jobs at once (or can you?) but i've done this countless times in perl that have saved me hours of work..

pS - to any on-lookers, no, neither of us have anything better to do :)

So, it's a slow morning...lol

Wouldn't a programming forum with subsections like php, .net, perl, .net etc. be better than just php ?

Originally posted by MaB
So why should PHP be treated so special. Perl was around way before php and is much better for sys-admining - imho


Maybe because the forum moderators IMHO is that PHP is a more needed subject and warrants more of a need for a forum???

I can give you several reasons why PHP is not even close to a Perl clone. Besides that PHP is much younger and yet just as powerful (if not MORE) then Perl, so that has to say something.

Everyone has opinions, however, PHP is still one of the fastest growing server-side languages there are, and is on Perl's heels as number 1 (though, as I said in another post, it's not there yet).

Furthermore, I agree with Chaps, I see very little interest in Perl related questions on this board, whereas I see many questions regarding PHP.

never said clone, said wannabe :D

and PHP is not as useful in running a server as perl is... when was teh last time you used/wrote a php script to help you automate functions from the command line?

Actually we are working on a open-source control panel that does just that. Your comparing SuEXEC or SUDO + Perl against PHP, that is kind of unfair considering SuEXEC works just find with PHP or Perl.

Command line functions are just command line functions, are you trying to say it's harder to use PHP's exec() command then it is to use Perl's equivelent?

And as someone pointed out in another thread, php has hardly nothing to do with hosting (except mabey some CPs might use that as a back end, but then others use perl and html as well)... perl has alot more to do with hosting than php

Im not anti php, just pro-perl :) I still think there should be a programming board where both php and perl can live together in peace. (The end)

Originally posted by comphosting
Actually we are working on a open-source control panel that does just that. Your comparing SuEXEC or SUDO + Perl against PHP, that is kind of unfair considering SuEXEC works just find with PHP or Perl.

Command line functions are just command line functions, are you trying to say it's harder to use PHP's exec() command then it is to use Perl's equivelent?

Your making a control panel in php, so there are many cps in perl -in fact, there are more in perl and html. Where is the perl and hmtl forum. I can point you to hundreds of command line perl scripts that help hosting and how it has helped me and others, im not saying you cant do that in php but im saying people dont (in largen umbers)... php does not have that much to do with a hosting board atleast not as much as perl

Again I disagree. Your making an assumption on an entire industry just because scripts in Perl are available now. Perl has been around longer then PHP so obviously there are going to be more programs available. Not to mention there are at least 4 cps I can think of written in PHP (though none fully stable). WebCP being the best example I can think of, which is actually coming along quite well.

either way, why should a language thats not even mainstream in the hosting biz be given a forum while a lanaguage/languages that are already in wide use in the hosting biz are not given one?

:rolleyes: anyway, this is getting a little childish :) headsurfer - it would make people happy if you just created a programming section and put all these languages under it... (mabey you can get a link from perl.com too :stickout )

over and out

PPS: Im sure im not the only one posting in this forum to rack up my post count (yes, it's sad)... raise your hand if you really care about adding a php forum and not a perl or other language forum...technical and security forum will remain the place for perl questions, no loss...

(+1 to the post count)

Originally posted by comphosting
I can give you several reasons why PHP is not even close to a Perl clone. Besides that PHP is much younger and yet just as powerful (if not MORE) then Perl, so that has to say something.


Read about how PHP came to be and you will see that it was created from C and PERL constructs and syntax :) (And PERL was created from C :) )

Yes PHP is getting good -> But u be mad to system admin with it IMHO


Everyone has opinions, however, PHP is still one of the fastest growing server-side languages there are, and is on Perl's heels as number 1 (though, as I said in another post, it's not there yet).


Very true but PERL 6 not out yet -> Expect a new Leader


Furthermore, I agree with Chaps, I see very little interest in Perl related questions on this board, whereas I see many questions regarding PHP.

Noticed that but PERL not a newbie language in any way. I learnt PERL first which when I started with PHP, PHP seamed easy :) LOL

( POINT -> First time i see PERL code may as well have been GERMAN lol )

I think the PHP forums is more-or-less a political thing. They wanted a link on the high traffic php.net and making a PHP forum is a good way to make that viable.

That being said, I find PHP a much easier langauge than Perl--for "simple" (aka normal) web applications I use PHP. For complicated things (ie web robots or complicated parsers) I use perl.

Owen

What I want to know is where the Python board is!

perl is a lot easier to program, php is ok for the web

Seems to be going round and round in circles this thread.

My 2 cents worth.

WHT users have been an amazing resourse getting my hosting company off the ground. The amount of times you guys have saved my ass is staggering.

Very glad to see a PHP forum. I am designing quite a few back ends for customer sites using PHP and I as they get a little more complex I think this forum is needed.

As for Perl and other languages, Totally agree....I think they should have that here also. Although I don't do alot in perl, I usually have questions as to how to do something, but there are no forums here that really relate to it, so I usually work it out elsewhere. I presume alot of others do the same and thus the lack of perl questions, plus the fact that ppl scripting in perl usually have half a clue. (sorry if that offends anyone)

Anyway, thats my 2 cents, plus I need to get my post count up also. :cartman:

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Also need to make a signature
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This shouldn't even be a topic here but since it is ill throw in my two cents. I like Perl but find PHP is much faster to code and you don't have to go the extra mile just to get a simple little application like a FormMail script. Perl that script could be 30 lines whereas PHP could do it in about 10. The only time I would consider using Perl is for shell scripting or maybe socket programming but with how rapidly PHP is growing it seems as though its going to blow Perl out of the water. It has already caught up to Perl/TK with PHP/GTK and that is a huge step.

I don't know, I can't say I prefer one over the other because they both have their ups and downs.

perl is dieing. Nothing personal again perl, I used to use it alot and it was the best programming language back then. It revolutionized how programming was done... but now-a-days, PHP is taking over. PHP is faster... easier to learn and has a lil brother called mysql. Sure, C/Perl is still good for some stuff, but I think that WHT realizes that PHP is discussed here about 20 times more often than perl is... still though, I agree, this forum should be entitled "Programming Languages" or something... but whatever.

Originally posted by BattleForums
perl is dieing. Nothing personal again perl, I used to use it alot and it was the best programming language back then. It revolutionized how programming was done... but now-a-days, PHP is taking over. PHP is faster... easier to learn and has a lil brother called mysql. Sure, C/Perl is still good for some stuff, but I think that WHT realizes that PHP is discussed here about 20 times more often than perl is... still though, I agree, this forum should be entitled "Programming Languages" or something... but whatever.

I question your whole post when i read the first statement about perl dieing.... thats just a bit of an un-educated statement.

PS - perl also has a "little brother" called mysql

Originally posted by MaB


I question your whole post when i read the first statement about perl dieing.... thats just a bit of an un-educated statement.

PS - perl also has a "little brother" called mysql


Perl never really cared about mysql and they never supported it the way that PHP did. That's why mysql works so much better with PHP in most cases and frankly, that is probably the main reason why PHP is bigger than perl is today. I'm not gonna argue with you, but I will debate you. You obviously think that perl is better, that's your opinion and I respect that. However, my opinion is different from yours, so we disagree. Now, some facts/opinions for you. PHP is growing much faster than PHP is (this is a fact). PHP is also way more user friendly to newbies (another fact). For example, you don't need to set permissions on PHP scripts and you don't need a cgi-bin (for perl used in cgi scripts). Also, you don't have to worry about stuff like sendmail & perl paths. Also, like I said above, PHP is alot easier for newbies to code. This isn't a fact, but it is a strong opinion and i'm sure many will agree.

Now, if you want to present your case in a mature matter and show me some FACTS about why perl is better then I encourage you to. Once again, I realize perl is still better at some things than PHP is, but as far as web based scripts are concerned and more specifically, web hosting scripts, PHP is without a doubt used more than perl. That is why WHT made this a PHP only forum. Not only that, but i'm sure that Robert doesn't want WHT to turn into a programming forum. I don't think this is so much a "General PHP discussion board" as it is a "Web Hosting PHP Discussion Board". He most likely made it because he was tired of all the PHP posts being posted in other forums.

Oh, by the way... another fact to prove my point. I did a few searches on WHT. Here are the results:

---------- Search Only Titles (ALL FORUMS)--------

"PHP" = Threads Found 854
"MySQL" = Threads Found 638
"Perl" = Threads Found 159
"CGI" = Threads Found 182


-------- Search Entire Posts (ALL FORUMS)--------

"PHP" = Threads Found 8918
"MySQL" = Threads Found 9032
"Perl" = Threads Found 5220
"CGI" = Threads Found 5282


I beleive these statistics speak for themselves. Also keep in mind, PHP is still very new and perl has been around much longer. If it continues this, it will CONTINUE dying. And also, about my so called "un-educated statement". I think you are the one who is un-educated if you honestly think that. Here, like me copy something from Websters Dictionary for you:

to address my so called "un-educated statement" about perl dying. Here you go:

dying

To undergo a sudden, sharp decline in population: Rabbits were dying off in that county.

Sorry to tell you, but many people are switching to PHP every day and leaving perl. Therefore, it is dieing. Sure, it may not be "sudden", but rather, more of a slow, painful death. You can be in denial all you want, but the numbers speak for themselves and like I mentioned above, if it continues this path (which it will) then perl will be dead as far as the web goes and it will probably only be used on speciality scripts.. This is an EDUCATED guess, but if you have anything to prove my guess wrong, then go ahead.

Later,
- BattleForums

Show me proof perl is dieing? I dont argue that PHP is growing VERY fast, but you cant show me proof is dieing which is an un-educated statement.

The fact that there are more php threads means there are more newbies (or advanced programmers) with questions about PHP (which supporst its growing fast - i dont argue with that) but doesnt make it better.

And that junk about perl not going along with MySQL? whats that based on? SimpleCP is all perl + mysql. So is my billing software and my client management software.

We worry about sendmail paths and such because we have the power to do what we need.

And what you said about php being useful in web hosting scripts, is just BS. For web based ones, you may have a point but command line and batch jobs that make our lives easier? no way. I can think of 100's of times ive used perl shell scripts to save me hours of time

Your statement about perl dieing is simply wrong. Your comment about php growing fast is correct i beleive.

Where are your facts? Youve only provided the number of threads on each topic which just shows people need more help with PHP...

I think the gap between Perl & PHP is becoming less and less with each new version, PHP is OK, but I think because I learned Perl first its always the language I will go to when I need something done, its just a perl :D

PS - I would put money on the fact that perl will be around for years and years and years to come and will not die

And once again, I dont doubt that PHP is growing, but that doesnt mean perl is dieing. PHP may be an easier language for newbies (who shouldnt be programming in the first place :) j/k )

AND as a website interface language, php may be easier, but perl is still the more all-around powerful language

Originally posted by MaB
Show me proof perl is dieing? I dont argue that PHP is growing VERY fast, but you cant show me proof is dieing which is an un-educated statement.

The fact that there are more php threads means there are more newbies (or advanced programmers) with questions about PHP (which supporst its growing fast - i dont argue with that) but doesnt make it better.

And that junk about perl not going along with MySQL? whats that based on? SimpleCP is all perl + mysql. So is my billing software and my client management software.

We worry about sendmail paths and such because we have the power to do what we need.

And what you said about php being useful in web hosting scripts, is just BS. For web based ones, you may have a point but command line and batch jobs that make our lives easier? no way. I can think of 100's of times ive used perl shell scripts to save me hours of time

Your statement about perl dieing is simply wrong. Your comment about php growing fast is correct i beleive.

Where are your facts? Youve only provided the number of threads on each topic which just shows people need more help with PHP...

Please read the quote again:

dying

To undergo a sudden, sharp decline in population: Rabbits were dying off in that county.

Is perl not declining in population? I personally think that perl is loosing more programmers than it is gaining. Also, less scripts are being created in perl... it keeps dropping every month. Each time new scripts are added @ hotscripts.com, there is always less and less perl scripts each update. PHP is releasing newer versions faster than perl is and once again, I don't think perl 6.0 is going to change the situation much, but then again, I don't have all the facts about perl 6 yet (I don't follow it too much). Either way, our debate probably won't be answered for another ten years, or maybe sooner if perl doesn't do something quick.

BattleForums

I think you guys need to get out there and write a few programs in whatever language you prefer, as you seem to have way to much time on your hands........

MaB, Don't know why your getting so upset, other than the "Perl is dying" comment, most people are agreeing with you that Perl has its place and is very useful, and feel there should be some form of discussion as it would help web hosts do their day to day business.

I am not real big on Perl myself, but I would be interested in these scripts you have written to save yourself hours and hours of time....can you give me some examples of these or point me in some directions to learn a little more about it?

(think thats the other reason PHP is growing faster...more support and is easier to learn)

Grant

Originally posted by MaB
but perl is still the more all-around powerful language

For how long? I noticed you used the word "still". Well, good for perl, but we aren't talking about NOW, i'm talking about the future. Perl has only had, what, an 7 year head start?. Give PHP another 7 years and then we'll see.

Perl may not be gaining as many as php but perl is certainly not loosing.

All your hotscripts and such again, are web based programs.

This is a hosting forum. How many php shell scripts have you written to save you hours of work? PHP maymake wbesite development easier, but when running a hosting business perl is king, as well as anyone who needs the ultimate power - they will choose perl...

Use raq2,raq3,raq4? Perl.
Use OpenSRS? Perl.
Use countless billing softwares and control panels? perl

This is a web hosting forum not a web development forum.

Originally posted by WebWorx
I think you guys need to get out there and write a few programs in whatever language you prefer, as you seem to have way to much time on your hands........

MaB, Don't know why your getting so upset, other than the "Perl is dying" comment, most people are agreeing with you that Perl has its place and is very useful, and feel there should be some form of discussion as it would help web hosts do their day to day business.

I am not real big on Perl myself, but I would be interested in these scripts you have written to save yourself hours and hours of time....can you give me some examples of these or point me in some directions to learn a little more about it?

(think thats the other reason PHP is growing faster...more support and is easier to learn)

Grant

I also agree'd that this forum should be expanded to cover perl. The reason he is upset is because he can't accept the fact that PHP is growing much faster than perl is (and ever was!).

Ps dont say perl6 wont help at all and then go right ahead and say you dont know much about perl6...

Originally posted by MaB
Ps dont say perl6 wont help at all and then go right ahead and say you dont know much about perl6...

I'm just basing my opinion on past experiences with hyped up perl releases. If you think perl 6 will change everything so much, then how about you tell me why?

Originally posted by BattleForums


For how long? I noticed you used the word "still". Well, good for perl, but we aren't talking about NOW, i'm talking about the future. Perl has only had, what, an 7 year head start?. Give PHP another 7 years and then we'll see.

PHP was prototyped using Perl - it is based on perl and developed in C and shares other things with perl. PHP is riding on the tails of perl...

Originally posted by WebWorx
but I would be interested in these scripts you have written to save yourself hours and hours of time....can you give me some examples of these
Grant

I converted my whole hosting biz from a few cobalt raqs onto my own CP on a white box, i saved hours with scripts that automatically saved all the info from config files and dbs and converted it into my CPs format.

I had to change 100's of ips in /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts, /etc/proftpd.conf and /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf - all done with a simple script

I had to completely rewrite my /etc/mail/virtusertable and aliases just from cobalts db - and even visa versa

and there are many more

Originally posted by MaB


PHP was prototyped using Perl - it is based on perl and developed in C and shares other things with perl. PHP is riding on the tails of perl...

Yet PHP is doing things that perl never could... so they must be doing something right. Besides, you can claim that anything is ripped off, most languages are very similiar to one another. PHP is also different in how is handles data, as it is server-side.

eeek - every stop posting for 4 minutes and let me read the whole 2nd page which passed me by :)

Originally posted by BattleForums


I also agree'd that this forum should be expanded to cover perl. The reason he is upset is because he can't accept the fact that PHP is growing much faster than perl is (and ever was!).


No, im upset because your saying i said stuff that I didnt say. If you read i AGREE that PHP is growing faster, but im upset because you cant see that perl isnt dieing and that php is a more powerful language for sysadmins and hosting companies (not just web development)

ok then. I won't bring up XML yet then :)

Originally posted by BattleForums

Yet PHP is doing things that perl never could


Eh? What stuff is it exactly you can accomplish in PHP, but not in Perl?

Some things may be harder to accomplish in Perl, some things are harder to accomplish in PHP -- but is there really several things you can do in PHP that you can't in Perl?

Both are Turing compatible for God's sake! :-)

PHP is also different in how is handles data, as it is server-side.

A language can't be "serverside" as such. Lots of PHP runs on the server. Lots of Perl runs on the server. Lots of PHP and Perl runs on the client! (yeeeees, you can create GUI programs with both PHP and Perl)

Besides arguing which language is the "better one" is a stupid argument. More or less like arguing "which is best - apples or bananas?"

You cannot argue on things like that unless you put it into context.

A better question to argue about would be: "Which is best for making apple juice? - Apples or bananas?"

Originally posted by BattleForums


Yet PHP is doing things that perl never could... so they must be doing something right. Besides, you can claim that anything is ripped off, most languages are very similiar to one another. PHP is also different in how is handles data, as it is server-side.


What is PHP doing that perl never could? Example? Fact not talk please? I didnt CLAIM that php ripped off perl, im telling you the FACT that php was prototyped in perl


AND about perl6 - its a total rewrite with many improvements. (including speed)

Originally posted by MaB



No, im upset because your saying i said stuff that I didnt say. If you read i AGREE that PHP is growing faster, but im upset because you cant see that perl isnt dieing and that php is a more powerful language for sysadmins and hosting companies (not just web development)

I did read what you said and i'm glad you agree that PHP is growing faster than perl is. However, I also beleive perl is in trouble and even if it isn't dying now, it will be soon because PHP is being developed much faster than perl is and although perl can claim to be king at certain things, those "certain things" will slowly disappear. Also, the large majority of discussions here @ wht are regarding web development

IM going to eat now, i expect there to be atleast 4 new posts by the time i get back :) (isnt hard going at this rate)...

Originally posted by MaB



What is PHP doing that perl never could? Example? Fact not talk please? I didnt CLAIM that php ripped off perl, im telling you the FACT that php was prototyped in perl


AND about perl6 - its a total rewrite with many improvements. (including speed)

PHP is targeting age groups and user groups that perl never could. PHP is probably responsible for thousands of people who can now call themselves "programmers" thanks to PHP's user friendly side. PHP is actually helping perl out more than perl helped PHP out. Many people who get into PHP will often end up getting into perl as well, thus helping perl out in the end. I think perl underestimated the amount of peoplepeople who wanted to get involved in recreational programming. I realize perl was never meant to be a "newbie language" but still, PHP is doing what perl did, except they opening new doors each day for many individuals.

hahaha.......This is getting a little funny now..an XML forum also???...I actually laughed for the first time in this whole thread...

(Just typed a bucket load more and deleted it cause it was totally irrelevent and would simply throw fuel on the fire...)

We thougth you meant php doing something perl cant meant in terms of features not target audience....

Well i dont think perl was out to get more people - thats not the goal. Their goal was an advanced, powerful language - not to help 12 year olds learn to program (That's what basic is for :) ) -

Basically, is assmebly a failure because its more advanced, harder to use and doesnt target everyone? is assembly dieing because of C programmer?

Originally posted by WebWorx
hahaha.......This is getting a little funny now..an XML forum also???...I actually laughed for the first time in this whole thread...


its funny how we have nothing better to argue about :)

So... how 'bout that anthrax?

It's funny how everyone automatically thinks that just cause something is easy to use, it must not be as good as something that is harder to use. Nope. Perl makes easy stuff look hard... perl gave programming a bad reputation in general. In fact, the world "programming" probably scared alot of people (not literly). But then PHP comes along and goes "hey perl, we can do what you're doing, except we don't need to make it look all l33t and confusing". Then perl starts crying :)

... I guess now I should request that the general forum also have a sub-section for Role Playing.

Perl is harder because its more advanced and flexible - I have much more control and power and more ability to run my servers that I do with PHP

and perl didnt give programming a bad rep

Are you a sysadmin or a siteadmin ? (honest question)

In the near future, PHP will beable to offer comparible features that perl does, without all the confusing mumbo jumbo. Anyways, you're right, we could go on for days arguing about pointless sh!t like this. The bottom line is, PHP is good at web applications and perl is good as certain things. I don't know why robert made a php forum, but something tells me it was done because he is making some sort of a profit from it and robert never really cares what anyone else has to think about his ideas, so all in all, this thread is pointless. If he changes this forum, it will be cause he wants to (and he will probably make that known also).

rumor has it robert created this forum for the link from php.net.....

anyway, as all arguments end, you have your opinions, i have mine and nothing has changed from us arguing:)

yeah obviously that is it. Funny, php.net has a link to www.rackshack.net also. If you go to www.php.net, you'll see the link up top right (the link to WHT). It has an image that says "Now has new PHP forums!" or something like that. Programming doesn't even fit in here... everything here is about web hosting except for these PHP forums. I personally think the whole idea to add a programming forum here was stupid. It would make more sense to add a "Hosting Scripts" forum where people could discuss programming that is RELATED to web hosting... but now there is gonna be posts in here that dont relate to web hosting at all.

Originally posted by MaB
Are you a sysadmin or a siteadmin ? (honest question)

Siteadmin

Amen :)

Cool :) Welcome to the board

Originally posted by MaB
Cool :) Welcome to the board

Thanks. I've actually been visiting WHT since early 2001 and i've had tons of usernames probably accumulating like 300-400 posts... hopefully this will be my last name :)

OH :) I saw you registered this in aug so i figured you were new..

Originally posted by MaB
PS - I would put money on the fact that perl will be around for years and years and years to come and will not die

And once again, I dont doubt that PHP is growing, but that doesnt mean perl is dieing. PHP may be an easier language for newbies (who shouldnt be programming in the first place :) j/k )

AND as a website interface language, php may be easier, but perl is still the more all-around powerful language

I agree with you that Perl won't die, it certainly is a powerful language. But there is SO little that PHP can't do and Perl can. I'm not going to say what, because there are things that PHP simply can't do.

However, some disagreements:

PHP may be an easier language for newbies
PHP is not a language for "newbies" it's a very powerful language, and if your GOOD at it you can do 99% of that which you can do in Perl (and sometimes, it's easier).

Perl is harder because its more advanced and flexible
Now I completely disagree. Perl is harder because the language has been around for 16 some-odd-years, and the constructs and format has changed very little. PHP was developed with an easier to understand (not to mention, read) constructs.

Second, I would honestly say PHP is MUCH more flexible then Perl. Unless of course you mean that you have to have 142 modules to do much of anything with Perl, then your right, Perl is more "flexible".

Their goal was an advanced, powerful language
Completely agree here. This is also the same goal of PHP, which has done just that in half as many years as it took Perl to do it. That's what I find funny, you talk about Perl being so much older, and yet PHP has done nearly the same (in my opinion better) in less then a decade.

We thougth you meant php doing something perl cant meant in terms of features not target audience....
I do have an interesting function that I don't think Perl could do, but, for the time being (until the control panel is released) it'll remain behind lock and key ;).

1) There is nothing that PHP can do that perl cant
2) perl hasnt been around for 16 years
3) php was written on the tails of perl and prototyped in perl therefore saved many years thanks to perl

PHP is not more flexible than perl. The modules save me time and effort - I have created perl scripts that sign onto instant messenger and interact - i can write one that will sign onto napster (if it still exists) and countless other things...


I thought we were done arguing about this? I have to go to sleep you know :)

Oh I'm sorry, Perl 1.0 has been around for over 14 1/2 years :rolleyes:.

one of the first unstable versions was prototyped in Perl, so now the entire language was "written on the tails of Perl"? That's odd, in that sense I suppose Perl was written on the tails of C then? And in part on awk?

Besides that PHP syntax doesn't take from Perl, but C, Java AND Perl. I'd suggest getting your facts straight before making comments.

And I see the modules as a burden, I'd like to see how well Perl works with no modules installed.

Perl works 100% without modules. Modules make it easier. Can your PHP program add customer support tickets to your billing software via aim? Can your php software migrate your servers ?

Perl was started in 1987.

PHP was started in 1994.

I realize perl didn't get big until the early 90's, but PHP didn't start getting big until 1998.

AND ive already made it clear that arguing gets no where and that i was done for the night but you came and decided to start up again

PS that wasnt directed at you BattleForums

My opinion, Perl is a REAL mature language compare towards PHP.

Anyway, both language owns advantages from the other one.

The point lies in if your a PERL or PHP scripter.

Both can do many things easily and fast if the scripter is

experienced and owns many of his own library files which can help

the skeleton of the scripts he's developing!:cartman:

You guys are comparing apples to oranges. Comparing PHP and Perl is unreasonable unless it's strictly in the context of web programming. One is a web-scripting language, while the other is a high-level, general purpose one. That's why in advocacy pages you almost never see comparisons between them. It's always PHP vs ASP vs ColdFusion, or Perl vs Python vs Java etc. Anyone who engages in this sort of jihad should know this.

Having said this, MaB is correct in that there's nothing PHP can do that Perl can't however inversely, there's quite a bit Perl can do that PHP can't. The same however goes if you were to compare ColdFusion to Perl, and you know how productive THAT debate would be.

Im going to pretend like im not subscribed to this thread :) I've caused enough madness as it is :) Im just gonna let this thread die off...

I dont know where this notion that PHP is incapable of running from a command line and 'saving hours of time' (as noted by one of the dear perl advocates), but the fact of the matter is that this is just plain wrong. When you cay that PHP has no CLI you're as far from the truth as you can get... I've written many a script which have helped preform administrative and trivial tasks alike from the command line. I've written scripts to watch process cpu/memory utilization, to index ftp sites and store the data in a mysql database, to parse lsof output, to track disk usage, to e-mail me if a service goes down, to restart the service if it goes down. I can write a stanadlone daemon to handle tasks, or i can make something which will run as a cron job, i can even make a standalone tcpip daemon which will listen for specific input on a tcp/udp port on the server, and act accordingly.

The point of this post is not to say 'look at what *I* can do' but rather to say 'take a look at both sides of your argument before you run people astray'

I realize that the Perl guys out there have an almost zealous attitude about their language - and with good reason, for it's opened up new worlds to them, but at the same time you have to realize that you're preaching to the choir. I'm not a Perl guy myself, and I may never be, but i DO realize the fundamental power which backs the language is strong... All I ask is that you take the time to do the same...

Also, as a side note, there was a post which claimed that perl does not need modules to accomplish its tasks. While this is true, how many people out there want to code a web server in perl without using the prebuilt modules that you can install to help perl out - CPAN anyone? (yes i realize that CPAN modules are written in perl, but I also realize that - fundamentally - its the same idea...)

That being said... I probably picked the wrong post to make my presence known and start in on the messge board didnt i?

:D

Cheers
--Apokalyptik

Welcome to the board :) And again, im done arguing :) Ive been flamed for it already :)

I think that the best programing language here is the one that you are confortable with, doesnt matter if the language is called "whatever" mature, old or not, So...thats really the point.
Diversity is beautifull.

Originally posted by MaB

What is PHP doing that perl never could?


Growing very rapidly!

I first learned Perl, but never used it because it was too complex (yes, I already had expirience in programming). Then one day I found PHP. I never stoped using it ever since.
I would also have to disagree PHP isn't capable of being used for shell scripts. I wrote a small monitoring tool in PHP. I'm pretty sure Perl guru's can write it in Perl, but I just like PHP better.
It all comes down to preference. I like PHP better, some people like Perl.

Originally posted by setic
You guys are comparing apples to oranges. Comparing PHP and Perl is unreasonable unless it's strictly in the context of web programming. One is a web-scripting language, while the other is a high-level, general purpose one. That's why in advocacy pages you almost never see comparisons between them. It's always PHP vs ASP vs ColdFusion, or Perl vs Python vs Java etc. Anyone who engages in this sort of jihad should know this.

Having said this, MaB is correct in that there's nothing PHP can do that Perl can't however inversely, there's quite a bit Perl can do that PHP can't. The same however goes if you were to compare ColdFusion to Perl, and you know how productive THAT debate would be.

Perl can do everything PHP can do, ok, sure, you got me there. But just cause perl can DO IT, doesn't mean it can do it GOOD! PHP is much faster than perl when it comes to large databases. So just cause perl can do something, does mean anyone will use it for that purpous.

I use both.

PHP

1. Easy to learn but hell I came from PERL anything easy after that :)

2. V4 very powerfull now

3. Don't like how it lets people write sloppy code -> needs making more strict ( PLZ )

4. Don't like how it auto parses vars ( BAD MISTAKE ) but that is being dealt with :)

5. Don't like how each SQL db as all its own functions ( Thats why i use my custom written abstration layer )

6. PHP's OOP is poor -> Still allows a decent level of abstraction but see to many beginners breaking the abstration of a class hence removing the whole point of a class.

PERL

1. Not easy to learn -> Looks the same after encryption LOL

2. Very powerfull but not web oriented.

3. Does not allow very sloppy coding -> infact under strict ( You all code PERL under strict dont u? ) sloppy coding gets u a kick in the nuts.

4. Does not auto parse vars and as a system called taint -> well coded PERL using taint and strict is very secure.

5. Requires a module for SQL access hence less abstration needed.

6. Can get a module to do anything bar transfer gates account to your own.

7. Very powerfull OOP abilitys ( Not as powerfull as a dedicated OOP language ) and very rearly see broken abstration of modules, just not the done thing.

8. Everything can be done another way :)

9. As to run though CGI interface :(:( -> hence web performace hampered.

10. Needs more web orientation in v6.

Originally posted by Steve-PWH

7. Very powerfull OOP abilitys ( Not as powerfull as a dedicated OOP language )


What do you miss in the Perl OOP system that you know from other systems? (and actually _use_ ?)


9. As to run though CGI interface :(:( -> hence web performace hampered.


Not true. Just run mod_perl.

Originally posted by jks


What do you miss in the Perl OOP system that you know from other systems? (and actually _use_ ?)



Not true. Just run mod_perl.

PERL is not a true OOP stucture simple as that -> Look at Java and you will see what i mean

As for mod_perl -> due to how easy it is for a newbie to take a server down with this you will find it on very few servers. Also when it is there most CGI scripts can not use it or the user does not know how to config it to use it.

Hell most of the PERL scripts I see are not even coded under strict let alone mod_perl compatible

And even using mod_perl, PERL runs via CGI -> All mod_perl does is save pre-complied versions of scripts to save re-compliation each time called.

My Saying of the day

If u code in PERL put 'use strict;' after the shebang line :)

I know that this is a very delacate thread but I've just started programming, I started with perl and gave it up then started with php and am getting somewhere.
This is how php became as I se it:
They took C and they took Perl and they tried to make something better in the sence of easier to use.
So for the moment perl is more powerfull and maybe more flexable (I haven't done enough to know). But PHP is growing fast and is becomming more and more powerfull. I think that some people have difficulties in adapting to new things.
When AMD ATHLON came out INTEL was known as the best and then when the ATHLON Benchmarks came out and proved to be for 2 chips of the same price alot faster. There where alot of arguments about which was the best the people who find it difficult to accept new things said that INTEL is still the best and people who where open to try anything new found that for a personal PC the Athlon was the best. I find that it's almost the same with PHP.
PHP was designed after perl by perl programmers who had the goal of making a script that is faster and easier to understand, for normal scripting it is alot better but for very complicated things maybe not so but could be so in some years to come.
It's the same with a webdesign, you create a webdesign and a few years later you take it from scratch, you have learn't from you mistakes in the last one and have learn't new techniques so the end result is better.
For the programming I do I prefere PHP as it is easier and faster.
I found it strange that PLESK was not mentioned... isn't is a stable PHP CP ? It's alot faster and more stable than any perl CP's I've ever used. One thing I like about PHP is :
PHP uses up more RAM and Perl uses UP more CPU, which is the easiest to upgrade ?

Originally posted by tribby
What I want to know is where the Python board is!

A Python forum will be really cool. I bet they'll come and ask:

What is this Python thing, anyway?

So you get angry and say:

This has been asked a zillion times alread. For God's sake, do a search before you ask.

:D

I just can't wait until the new OO features in PHP finalize :)
I expect many new libraries and packages to appear for PHP by the introduction of the new OO features.

I used to program in Perl, but then I left it for PHP (for web development) and now Python as a general programming language.

If you want to learn Python for example, there is a very small set of syntax and semantics that you need to learn. In essense, everything is an object. Now you build on that, you need a new functuality, you define new functions. All you need to learn then is the functions interface.

Perl, on the other hand, has many unnecessary syntax, semantics, exceptions, and shortcuts. If you want to learn regex for example, you'll find that it is implemented as a special syntax.

The syntax in general is not very clear, you look at a line of code like this and you get really confused:


sub myname;
$me = myname $0 or die "can't get myname";


There are also other things like user-defined delimeters, and magical variables that will all render perl scripts unreadable.

You can, of course, make your script more readable by adopting a specific set of rules and features of the language and using only those. You can stick to single qoutes for quoting string literals and forward slashes for regex patterns. The problem is that each developer will adopt his own set of features and different script will look as if they were written in different languages.

Anyway, this is just my personal opinion about why I don't like Perl, and I think it is why many of the advanced programmers don't like it. Since we already know why beginners don't like it ;)

I've taken a look at Perl 6 a while ago, and it sounded promising. I hope they'll get to finish it soon. I also hope that people will get to write PHP and Python interpreters for Perl 6's binary format, so that we can all exchange packages, modules and libraries written in the language we like :)

Originally posted by Steve-PWH

PERL is not a true OOP stucture simple as that -> Look at Java and you will see what i mean


Well, what do you define as a "true" OOP "structure" then?

For the record: I have worked with "traditional" object-oriented programming languages like Java and C++.

Have you ever _tried_ using OOP with Perl?
Do you know that you can turn just about anything in Perl into an object? - even a regular expression!


As for mod_perl -> due to how easy it is for a newbie to take a server down with this you will find it on very few servers.


I know quite a few servers that come with mod_perl. For example all RaQs run mod_perl.

Also when it is there most CGI scripts can not use it or the user does not know how to config it to use it.

So Perl is bad performance wise, because people cannot figure out how to set it up?


Hell most of the PERL scripts I see are not even coded under strict let alone mod_perl compatible


You're saying that because most programmers cannot figure out how (or haven't got time for) - programming the "right" way - then you'll _never_ be able to get good performance out of it?

And even using mod_perl, PERL runs via CGI

That is simply not correct.

All mod_perl does is save pre-complied versions of scripts to save re-compliation each time called.

Again, not correct.

I'll make a short comparison of PHP and Perl here:

1) You can compile PHP into a standalone executable with which you can make CGIs.

2) You can compile Perl into a standalone executable with which you can make CGIs.

Both will give you less than great performance because there's an overhead involved in loading in the PHP/Perl interpreter.

Similarly:

1) You can compile PHP into an Apache module (mod_php) with which you can generate php pages.

2) You can compile Perl into an Apache module (mod_perl) with which you can generate perl pages.

The difference is the same.

In both cases what you gain is the fact that you do not have to load the PHP or Perl interpreter for every page hit. It's already in Apache.

On top of this you can put extra optimization, like caching compiled versions of scripts, etc.

Man u funny

PERL does not run as a Apache Module under mod_perl.

mod_perl just removes the need to launch a process to complile the script hance faster.

Hence the reason you can not pass local variables (my) around subrutines when using mod_perl as you get the same result even when changed as pre-compiled.

There are big savings in startup and compilation times. Having the Perl interpreter embedded in the server saves the very considerable overhead of starting an external interpreter for any HTTP request that needs to run Perl code. At least as important is code caching: the modules and scripts are loaded and compiled only once, when the server is first started. Then for the rest of the server's life the scripts are served from the cache, so the server only has to run the pre-compiled code. In many cases, this is as fast as running compiled C programs.

Think u getting mixed up with the fact you can write apache modules in PERL if mod_perl in use.

And as for the CGI -> I was wrong CGI interface is replaced under mod_perl :)

Originally posted by Steve-PWH
Man u funny

PERL does not run as a Apache Module under mod_perl.

mod_perl just removes the need to launch a process to complile the script hance faster.

Hence the reason you can not pass local variables (my) around subrutines when using mod_perl as you get the same result even when changed as pre-compiled.

mod_perl embeds the Perl interpreter in the Apache executable, so there is no need to start the interpreter from the outside with each call to a Perl script, the interpreter will become an internal Apache function. It's just like what mod_php does for PHP.

mod_perl also enables you to write Apache modules in perl, but that's a different story.

my language is better than yours == my dick is bigger than yours

Write in whatever you want, dont complain about what others write in.