I remember well what you guys all said 3 or 4 years ago about massive insane overselling. Now I read an article and I was totally laughing my *** off because it represents the downward spiral of this industry perfectly well:

http://www.besthostratings.com/articles/overselling.html

Quote:
---------------
"It is not uncommon for a web hosting company to offer 20 GB of web space for a shared hosting plan priced at about $10 per month. Most of you would say that this is a great offer and the clear winner is the customer. Compared to the hosting companies that have not followed the giga trend this offer is too good to be true. Well it is not!" says Host Color's Executive Director Vesselin Drangajov.

Later on he says:
"We call companies offering the likes of 100 GB monthly bandwidth for less than $10 per month 'Giga Hosts'."
---------------

So I visit http://www.hostcolor.com/ and what is the first offer I see advertised on their website:

$9.49/m
Host 30 Different Web Sites
30000 MB Space
500 GB Bandwidth

Hostcolor.com = GIGAHOST !!!

Unfortunately I have to say that this is exactly what I am seeing EVERYWHERE now !! All hosts are doing the same now. All of you guys who complained about how bad overselling is...how it harms the customers. You are all doing it too now.

And don't tell me that hardware prices have changed so much since 2006. You all know that those 30 to 1000 GB plans are just as unrealistic as they were in 2006 or even 2004 !

Why don't we all cooperate like they do in other industries ? Why can't we simply offer 1000 to 5000 MB ? Why does everyone need to offer a bit more than the competition if we all know that these numbers are nothing but A LIE TO FOOL CUSTOMERS INTO THINKING THEY GET A BETTER DEAL ? Why are you all telling me about your moral values and how much your businesses loves the customer if you don't bother making fools of your customers ?

This aggressive competition leads nowhere as we see now. Hosts are no longer outstanding with 1000 GB plans. Everybody offers this now. If we all offered 1000 MB we would all be just as successful.

All of you guys who complained about how bad overselling is...how it harms the customers. You are all doing it too now.

No, not "all" are doing it too now.

I suggest doing more complete research on the matter. You are painting a very inaccurate picture by using such wide strokes with that brush. One example does not a generalization make.

:D Bailey

No, not "all" are doing it too now.

I suggest doing more complete research on the matter. You are painting a very inaccurate picture by using such wide strokes with that brush. One example does not a generalization make.

:D Bailey

Well I think 98 to 99% would be an accurate picture.

People don't go for under or even sellers anymore, they are attracted to more space and bandwidth for less.

Well I think 98 to 99% would be an accurate picture.

Can you back that up with some evidence? :)

A lot of web hosts and providers that you commonly see now are selling what is commonly known as "oversold" resources such as bandwidth, disk space etc. but not every one is.

Really it depends on which market you are targeting and who exactly your target audience is. For example if you are targeting those who don't know a great deal about the subject then you are most likely to get them to sign up if you have "bigger" plans for less money. However if you are targeting those who have more knowledge and want a more "realistic" provider then you will have to offer quality over quantity.

Search around the forums using the search feature at the top of the page for keywords such as "overselling"; they will give you more information and a wide range of discussions on the subject. :)

Best Regards,

Pimps and low lives are starting to complain about some hosts giving them a bad name. :D :eek3:

Can you back that up with some evidence? :)


Well do a search for webhosting on Google... Look at the first 100 hosts you find and you'll see.

Well... I think I have to respond to this. Glace you're insulting WHT members' intelligence. You certainly said something that obviously is not true. Sorry to say that but your post is offensive. At the same time you don't have reasons to talk like this.

Overselling means to sell/offer more space and bandwidth you have on the server. The plan above allows anyone to host 30 web sites and to use 1GB on average for each one. All the resources included in the plan above have quotas and there are no "unlimited" things there.

In terms of overselling this hosting plan offers... nothing! Someone might even say that this hosting offer is poor on disc space and monthly transfer and at the same time is not cheap enough. I hope you know what does multi domain web hosting mean? A service which allows anyone who owns many smaller website to consolidate resources and to lower their expenses.

This plan is the opposite of overselling! And anyone who has a certain level of knowledge about web hosting would tell you this.

There are some major players in the industry (as well as us "small" guys/gals) that still offer reasonable plans (allocation wise) and let each and every customer use their account to its fullest without disabling them. That doesn't mean we could let every user at the exact same time use all their space/bandwidth, but if you know anything about statistics and probability, this will never occur.

This is known as "responsible overselling" where based on statistics and historical data, you know what the average client uses in terms of space, bandwidth, memory, and cpu, and arrange your plans in such a way that at any given time, any client can use their full share of resources without impacting overall server/network performance.

And the clients that are looking for stable and secure shared hosting environments know this, and are willing to pay "what it costs" to have this level of service.

What you're looking at is the hobbyist/personal web hosting hosts that cater to this market. In this competitive arena, lowest price coupled with the highest level of resources "wins".

- John C.

Well do a search for webhosting on Google... Look at the first 100 hosts you find and you'll see.
That's not evidence. That's just a small amount of providers; not the entire industry. You can't categorize the entire web hosting industry by 100 odd companies. ;)

Well... I think I have to respond to this. Glace you're insulting WHT members' intelligence. You certainly said something that obviously is not true.

Overselling means to sell/offer more space and bandwidth you have on the server. The plan above allows anyone to host 30 web sites and to use 1GB on average for each one. All the resources included in the plan above have quotas and there are no "unlimited" things there.

In terms of overselling this hosting plan offers... nothing! Someone might even say that this hosting offer is poor on disc space and monthly transfer and at the same time is not cheap enough. I hope you know what does multi domain web hosting mean? A service which allows anyone who owns many smaller website to consolidate resources and to lower their expenses.

This plan is the opposite of overselling! And anyone who has a certain level of knowledge about web hosting would tell you this.

Okay...so how many customers utilizing close to 100% of their 30 domains and 30 gigs for under ten dollars can you fit on one server?

Because it seems to me that if the server has 160gigs of space, for example, then you're looking at 5 customers...and if they are only using 90% of their allocated resources, you can almost squeeze 6 on there...but that might be considered overselling, since you really don't have room in this case to give 6 customers the full 30 gigs.

As I understand it, overselling is offering more space than you think the client will use, so you can put more clients on a finite amount of space, banking on the odds that they never will come close to actually using the amount that is advertised to them.

You're saying you don't do that, right? Or did I miss something on what overselling is all about?

Well I think 98 to 99% would be an accurate picture.

Not even remotely. This isn't about what you think, this is about actual numbers. If you are basing your claims on what you "think," obviously you haven't done a lick of research in the matter.

Kindly stop misrepresenting the MANY companies which are NOT doing what you erroneously claim they are doing.

:D Bailey

Well do a search for webhosting on Google... Look at the first 100 hosts you find and you'll see.

The first 100 hosts on Google are

(1) not even a drop in the ocean of the whole industry; and
(2) not representative of the industry.

:D Bailey

This aggressive competition leads nowhere as we see now. Hosts are no longer outstanding with 1000 GB plans. Everybody offers this now. If we all offered 1000 MB we would all be just as successful.Ahh, now that would be a dream come true and unfortunately will never ever happen. The hosts that are offering big plans are set in their ways. They aren't going to turn around and offer 90% reduction in their quotas. The only way that is going to happen is if they were forced to do so, and who is going to force them? Customers? Governments? Customers are the reason were at this point as it's all marketing for them. Governments can't tell a unregulated industry what to do and I doubt regulating the industry would ever happen.

As I understand it, overselling is offering more space than you think the client will use

No, overselling is offering more space (or resources) than you physically have on the server.

:D Bailey

If you read my post, you'll see that that is what I am getting at.

If you read my post, you'll see that that is what I am getting at.
Still not exactly the same. :)

Overselling:
Selling 1000gb of space when you have 500gb physically available.

Offering more space than the client will use:
Selling 100gb of space when you think they will use 5gb.

However:
If you have 500gb available, and you sell 100gb (once) you will find that while you are selling more than you think they will use it's not overselling as the resources are still available.

Hope that helps, :)

Still not exactly the same. :)

Overselling:
Selling 1000gb of space when you have 500gb physically available.

Offering more space than the client will use:
Selling 100gb of space when you think they will use 5gb.

However:
If you have 500gb available, and you sell 100gb (once) you will find that while you are selling more than you think they will use it's not overselling as the resources are still available.

Hope that helps, :)

Not really, since I mentioned in my post that the reason you hope they use much less than you advertise is so you can fit many more clients on your server (it being understood that the space you 'sell' is more than you have.)

My example of 5 clients on the one server with adding a sixth being overselling would indicate that I understand the concept as you explain it.

6x30 gigs is 180 gigs...more than the 160 gigs of room on the server used in the example. That is a very basic example of overselling, is it not? Squeezing in a 7th, 8th, 40th, etc., is just a logical extension of the example.

That's why I mentioned 'if you read my post.' You'll notice when he quoted me, he left off a part of the sentence.

So, like I said, Hosting Color would never try and put 6 clients (or 7, or 12, or 186) with 30 gig/$10 plans on a server with only 160 gigs, because that is overselling, and they don't do that.

Sounds to me like someone might be hurting in the client department and is releasing a little stress!

Here's a suggestion, stop attracting the same $5 client as everyone else and they'll look far beyond space/transer limits :)

Overselling means to sell/offer more space and bandwidth you have on the server. The plan above allows anyone to host 30 web sites and to use 1GB on average for each one. All the resources included in the plan above have quotas and there are no "unlimited" things there.

Man are you serious ? Did you read what YOU said in this article ? And have you looked at your plan ? Have you compared the numbers you mentioned in the article with the numbers your plan has ???? You can't say "Selling X is crazy" and then 2 years later you are selling 5 times X yourself !! Do you really expect me to take that seriously ?

Guys you are all confusing something. If you sell 5, 10, 20 or even 50 times the space and bandwidth you have available I won't complain... But when you sell like 1000 or 10000 times what you have then fraud is the word to describe what you are doing. Most hosts are now offering 1000 GB plans and then they put 1000 clients on a 500 GB server.

Now don't tell me the first 100 hosts on Google are not representative... These are the hosts that the vast majority of customers will see... This is the type of plan they will recognize as the industry standard. Do you know what market share the first 100 hosts on Google have ?

We all know the only way to offer it is to put traps in the TOS and then kick people out if they use more than average and this is not fair.

From where I sit, the extreme oversellers have moved beyond using disk space and data transfer allocations as resource limiters. Buried deeeeeep in their TOS, in the fine print, are the real resource limiters, and these are known as "cpu cycles", "inodes" etc etc. The massive resource allocation promises is just for the marketing, but the real resource limiters are buried deep in the fine print.

glace, I'm going to be really direct with you here. Who exactly do you think you are talking to???

When you say "But when you sell like 1000 or 10000 times what you have then fraud is the word to describe what you are doing." ... who do you think YOU is?? By not explaining who you are speaking to, you are speaking to everybody here. Including me. Including Utropic. Including DTH. And I, as well as every non-overselling host, take fair exception to your claims, because they are simply not true!!!

Excuse me, no, I am not selling 1,000 times what I have; and no, I am not engaged in any kind of fraud. :mad: Nor are many of the other reputable, stand-up companies who frequent this board and who are reading this thread.

So, STOP SLANDERING MY COMPANY.

There, is that clear enough for you??? :rolleyes:

If you are speaking to particular individuals or specific companies, fine -- but then reference that in how you phrase things. But do not sit there and infer that all companies are doing what you claim, because they aren't!!! Universal usage of the word "you" is not acceptable, because you are including people in your claims who are not doing anything wrong.

Now don't tell me the first 100 hosts on Google are not representative... These are the hosts that the vast majority of customers will see... This is the type of plan they will recognize as the industry standard. Do you know what market share the first 100 hosts on Google have ?No, the first 100 hosts on Google are not representative of the industry. The first 100 hosts on Google are companies have disproportionately high rankings for many reasons, including the fact that they are discount hosts which have many clients due to their low prices alone... the high number of clients means they have many more backlinks, mentions, ratings, feedbacks, etc. Their high SE rankings perpetuate themselves because activity breeds activity, in SE-land.

Additionally, their sites have been highly optimized for high SE ranking because these companies can only profit on high customer volume. The only way their servers can be profitable is if they pack a ton of people on each one; they don't charge enough per-account to be profitable any other way. Since one key to getting lots of customers is to have a high search engine result, it makes sense for them to invest in SE optimization and to make sure they come out near the top of the results (e.g., the top 100). So they are at the top of the search engines by design, because that's the only way a mass overseller can make money.


By contrast, those companies which do NOT rely on high customer volume, and which do not attract customers through low prices (but rather by providing high-quality and personalized service), do not even waste a 2nd thought on search engine rankings. Why? Because our customers do not come from search engines. They come to us from other means. Search engines are inconsequential to us, so you won't find us in the top 100. And we don't care that we're not in the top 100, either. :stickout: If search engines dropped off the face of the earth tomorrow, it wouldn't hurt us in the least.


For example, the last search engine-garnered sign-up that we had, came to us in 2003. :eek: *Every* other client has come to us via word-of-mouth/personal referral. Google, shmoogle!! LOL :stickout:


glace, what is the crux of our disagreement is that what the potential search engine user perceives as being "industry standard" is a completely separate issue from what the actual statistics would bear that hosts across-the-board are doing. You are talking about what the perceptions are of a subset of customers who are the target demographic of the hosting company models that you're complaining about... you are attempting to portray perceptions as statistical fact, when they are not. They are two totally different things. They are apples and oranges.

When speaking of those perceptions, you claimed that 99% of hosts were doing these egregious things. NOT TRUE. Perhaps that subset of users sees that 99% of the hosts THEY SEE are mass-overselling, but that is because they are focusing on qualities which create the overselling market in the first place: low price, incredibly high disk space, incredibly high transfer, etc. However the perceptions of that one subset of hosting customers does NOT accurately represent what the state of the whole industry actually is. It is only their limited perception. The reason we know this is true, is because if you were to poll a different subset of users, who were looking for quality of service, high uptime, and reliability -- and for whom available disk space and price were not a concern -- you would find a completely different picture.

If you are going to make accurate statements about the state of the industry, you MUST poll a truly representative pool of the industry. The top 100 results in Google is NOT representative. The top 100 results in Google are only those companies which have tons of customers, have super-optimized their web copy (to attract tons of customers), or have tricked their way to the top of the search engines by whatever means. The fact that they are in the top 100 of Google represents a TON of bias that put them there. Google is not equal opportunity, nor is it equal representation, for any niche. Google is the prize for the person with the best search engine trickery/skills. Now if your customers actually come from Google, then it makes sense to try to get a high ranking. But if your customers are looking for qualities which are not reflected in search engines, then it makes no sense to spin your wheels on your search engine rankings.

This leaves the non-overselling hosts grossly under-represented, and the mass oversellers grossly over-represented, in the highest search engine results.



I understand you are bitter, and for what it's worth I even agree with your sentiments, personally (that mass over-promising with no intention of actually fulfilling it, is wrong). However such feelings are no justification for slashing & trashing the many good companies which are doing a great job at taking care of people.

:D Bailey

. . . When you say "But when you sell like 1000 or 10000 times what you have then fraud is the word to describe what you are doing." ... who do you think YOU is?? By not explaining who you are speaking to, you are speaking to everybody here. Including me. Including Utropic. Including DTH. And I, as well as every non-overselling host, take fair exception to your claims, because they are simply not true!!!
Ummm, woooooah, easy now. :)

I think you missed who grace was referring to, as in "but when you sell like 1000 or 10000 times what you have . . ." grace is obviously referring to those hosts who "sell like 1000 or 10000 times what you have".

I thought that was obvious. :)

:D Bob

Actually the top100 hosts on Google DO represent a LARGE majority of the SHARED-HOSTING industry. I can list a few but companies listed are:

HostGator - 1million domains
BlueHost and subsidiaries - 850k domains
DreamHost - 1million +
Yahoo - 2.5 million +
1And1 - 2.2 million

This isn't a small percent. BTW th listed above are all oversellers. So get used to it. Overselling is here to stay. For the reason why some hosts are moving to overselling business models is simple. "If you can't beat em. Join em".

Overselling or not, just offer a good service for a good price and you're golden. lol, too much over analyzing.

From where I sit, the extreme oversellers have moved beyond using disk space and data transfer allocations as resource limiters. Buried deeeeeep in their TOS, in the fine print, are the real resource limiters, and these are known as "cpu cycles", "inodes" etc etc. The massive resource allocation promises is just for the marketing, but the real resource limiters are buried deep in the fine print.

Well every other host has these buried in their TOS in one way or another to protect themselves from serious server abuse. Some may go more exact and bring up cpu cycles or inodes while others may be less precise.

It's not entirely about tricking the customer its about protecting the other ones. You cannot have one customer attempting to use the server like it's their own. Whether you charge $30/month or 1GB space and 10GB of bandwidth or $7/month for 1000GB space and 10000GB of bandwidth.

Some want to offer all you can eat essentially while others would prefer to not to. While you also have people in the middle. There is nothing wrong with any of them and there is nothing dishonest about it.


I guess some people can still claim otherwise on this forum, however their terms of service always disagree with what they say around here. They're not going to let one customer use 3GB of server ram and 2 2.6ghz cpu's for an entire month at $30/month or whatever they charge unless they're offering complete dedicated solutions to customers.

The day cpanel finally allows individual accounts to be limited by actual cpu/ram usage instead of just disk/bandwidth will be the same day every host on the planet (**) jumps onto the overselling bandwagon.

** haha. Ok, maybe not every host. There will always be some (including me) that prefer to market to the niche customers who are happy to pay good money for a reliable and trusted service that does NOT utilize overselling as a marketing ploy.

I suppose I mean... most. As in, pretty much everyone who uses cpanel except for a previous few holdouts who know the industry, know their company, know their customers, and know how to run a business that does not compete on price alone.

:)

I guess some people can still claim otherwise on this forum, however their terms of service always disagree with what they say around here. They're not going to let one customer use 3GB of server ram and 2 2.6ghz cpu's for an entire month at $30/month or whatever they charge unless they're offering complete dedicated solutions to customers.Generalizations are just that... In our 12+ years of hosting, we have *never* stopped a client from using all the space/bandwidth they have purchased. Now, if their script is abusive (i.e. bad code for an infinite loop, horrible mod on a forum, etc...) we've had to work with them to fix the problem, but beyond that, thousands of websites using dynamic, static, e-commerce, db's, etc... have never been suspended or told they are using too many resources if their account falls within the plans' specs.

Our TOS *is* in place to protect other users and ourselves, but we've never had to invoke it or hide behind it because our plans are balanced. And we technically "oversell" because if you add up all the disk space and bandwidth sold on a server, it would be more than the server can handle (which is not a problem since statistics and historical data tell us how much on average each client will use).

A host's TOS should be something that is only invoked to stop abusive or illegal clients from casuing a problem. It shouldn't be used to limit that which the customer purchased and should expect to be able to use to the fullest. The thing with these mega plans is they border on fraud, because the average website their ads "boast" about can in no way, shape, or form use the resources they are touting.

- John C.

I just don't see how a company can try and say they aren't overselling when they are...and trying to use semantics to dress it up as something else.

That point aside...as long as a company handles the service properly, and as long as they do accomodate every user that approaches maxing out their plan (without going over cpu usage, if that is at all possible), then what is the problem?

If a company wants to cram 300 clients paying less than 10 bucks on a server that could only hold 10 if they were all maxed out, then as long as he got more servers (or hard drives, or whatever)to keep pace with more and more clients maxing out, what is the problem? (so long as the servers ran well, etc.)

Eventually he'd have 30 servers (or more hard drives, or whatever he had to do) with 10 clients each on them, assuming no growth for this example....whether charging 10 bucks or even less still makes it profitable is another matter.

Matt Heaton (owner of bluehost.com) had an interesting post on his blog a while ago about their strategy for overselling. I'm not sure what is the link to the post, but maybe someone can find it:

mattheaton.com

Essentially, he said that they do admit to major overselling, but they do NOT pull the plug on customers that go over the limits. What they do is move the customer over to a special server for this purpose. The idea being that they have some "special" servers for these heavy users, and that amounts to very few servers since the vast majority of customers don't come close to using their allowances. He stressed quite heavily that they do not limit customers or close their accounts if they go over their disk/bw usage.

It was an interesting post, actually.

Generalizations are just that... In our 12+ years of hosting, we have *never* stopped a client from using all the space/bandwidth they have purchased. Now, if their script is abusive (i.e. bad code for an infinite loop, horrible mod on a forum, etc...) we've had to work with them to fix the problem, but beyond that, thousands of websites using dynamic, static, e-commerce, db's, etc... have never been suspended or told they are using too many resources if their account falls within the plans' specs.


See this is what always gets me statements like these:


Now, if their script is abusive (i.e. bad code for an infinite loop, horrible mod on a forum, etc...) we've had to work with them to fix the problem



have never been suspended or told they are using too many resources if their account falls within the plans' specs.


You talk about abusive scripts, but then lower you say you never suspend accounts. So which is it? If the user wants to run 200 queries per page they should be allowed shouldn't they without any changes to their scripts? They're within their plans specs so why change what isn't broken? (Well the perception of the user anyways)

Essentially, he said that they do admit to major overselling, but they do NOT pull the plug on customers that go over the limits. Yeah, that must be why every time I see a front page digg story hosted on a Bluehost account it's been suspended. (most of the time just then getting to the front page.) Oh, I guess that's not the same limits he's talking about?

I think the post you're thinking of is http://mattheaton.com/?p=119

You talk about abusive scripts, but then lower you say you never suspend accounts. So which is it? If the user wants to run 200 queries per page they should be allowed shouldn't they without any changes to their scripts? They're within their plans specs so why change what isn't broken? (Well the perception of the user anyways)I'll state it again: "We have never suspended or canceled a client for using all of what they have purchased from us". We have of course disabled a bad script, but in *every* case, the script was fixed by us or the client and they were on their way. A bad script being one that is in an infinite loop or written with errors in it that the client did not expect would cause an issue.

What I have a beef with is when a host has plans that cannot support an average website from running if it uses all the disk space or bandwidth allotted. If you advertise e-commerce, blogs, forums, etc... as being one click installs, then these software packages should be able to use all the resources of a plan purchased. If not, then IMNSHO, this borders on false advertising and a mis-representation of what the host can actually support.

Your argument is like saying "If I can bring an object on a airplane that security allows, I should be able to do anything I'd like with it once on the plane with no restrictions". Common sense and an expectation of the average beahvior of passengers dictates that the plane is not restricting you from normal use of items on the plane, but will take action if you try to throw an object through the window or harm an airline attendant, etc... (whether intentional or accidental).

- John C.

I'll state it again: "We have never suspended or canceled a client for using all of what they have purchased from us". We have of course disabled a bad script, but in *every* case, the script was fixed by us or the client and they were on their way. A bad script being one that is in an infinite loop or written with errors in it that the client did not expect would cause an issue.



You're disable scripts though? You're essentially suspending them and some hosts who oversell do just disable scripts as well.

See this is what baffles me when someone comes around preaching they allow a customer to use all their space and bandwidth. A statement like that clearly disagrees with exactly what they state somewhere else. There are cases where a customer is going to be unable to use their full space and bandwidth allocations due to the types of programs their website uses.

What is even the definition of a badly coded script? You have custom made ones that are absolutely terrible, but you also have open source and commercial that are just as bad. I doubt every user is going to be willing to fix their scripts or in most cases have to pay someone to do it.

What is even the definition of a badly coded script? You have custom made ones that are absolutely terrible, but you also have open source and commercial that are just as bad. I doubt every user is going to be willing to fix their scripts or in most cases have to pay someone to do it.Personally, a bad script is one that takes more resources then a proper script would. For example, if a page has 100 queries where the same data can be gathered with just 5, that is a bad script. A script that queries for stuff it has already queried would also be a bad script for multiple reasons -- one being against OOP and another being a waste of server resources. And yet another bad one is using external includes that go straight back to the same server -- that is a common error and under traffic is basically attacking the web service (apache or IIS or whatever) internally.

There are open source and commercial scripts that are bad also but most bad ones will be custom. Usually the open source/commercial scripts are just heavy and need to be so to get the job done. For example, vB is usually defined as a heavy script. However, I've found that some open source/commercial scripts are heavy only when customizations/plugs have been added.

But at the end of the day, bad scripts can get away with a lot until they come under traffic and at that point have to be taken care of.

You're disable scripts though? You're essentially suspending them and some hosts who oversell do just disable scripts as well.

See this is what baffles me when someone comes around preaching they allow a customer to use all their space and bandwidth. A statement like that clearly disagrees with exactly what they state somewhere else. There are cases where a customer is going to be unable to use their full space and bandwidth allocations due to the types of programs their website uses.

What is even the definition of a badly coded script? You have custom made ones that are absolutely terrible, but you also have open source and commercial that are just as bad. I doubt every user is going to be willing to fix their scripts or in most cases have to pay someone to do it.Some people just see the trees...

I'll state it again in case you mis-read it: "We have never suspended or canceled a client for using all the resources they have purchased." The *only* times in 12+ years of hosting we have even temporarily disabled a script was when the client had either created an infinite loop, or mis-coded a change that consumed all the CPU for too long a time. In *every* case we (or the client) quickly corrected this and they continued to be a client going forward, using their purchased resources.

We have never had a client using any software we offer in our control panel or that we support or are familiar with become suspended for violating a TOS resource while remaining within their disk and bandwidth allowances.

It's not preaching, it's just showing the other side of the coin where with properly proportioned plans, a host can allow its clients to use all they purchased without fear of suspension or being canceled.

- John C.
(Who thinks of himself as the "Pale Rider" preacher)

I don't think it's fair to always blame the host. Consumers are just as equal to blame for demanding so much that is resulting in companies grossly overselling. That is in a nutshell the only reason.

If demands becomes realistic, then the supply will be too.

(before I am devoured in complaints, I was indeed generalising and understand many do have realistic demands too :agree:).

I don't think it's fair to always blame the host. Consumers are just as equal to blame for demanding so much that is resulting in companies grossly overselling. That is in a nutshell the only reason.I agree that consumer expectations can be part of the problem. The other side of that is some consumers do not realize that their expectations are "out of whack" as all around them they see hosts saying host terabytes with us for mere pennies a day. It propagates the problem.

So at the end of the day you have consumers who are trying to get away with as much as they can for as little as possible, and others who do not know any better and end up in the same boat. Consumer education (and bad experiences) will slowly help improve consumer understanding of hosting, but until then, it's the Wild West of web hosting. :)

- John C.

. . . but until then, it's the Wild West of web hosting. :)
Giddy up! :D

(Bob, sitting on his front porch shining his shotgun and feeding his horse)

I just had a customer cancel. His explanation (direct quote): "Another host is selling me 1000 GB of space for the same price... You have to understand."

IT MAKES ME SICK !!

Overselling means to sell/offer more space and bandwidth you have on the server. The plan above allows anyone to host 30 web sites and to use 1GB on average for each one. All the resources included in the plan above have quotas and there are no "unlimited" things there.

In terms of overselling this hosting plan offers... nothing! Someone might even say that this hosting offer is poor on disc space and monthly transfer and at the same time is not cheap enough. I hope you know what does multi domain web hosting mean? A service which allows anyone who owns many smaller website to consolidate resources and to lower their expenses.

This plan is the opposite of overselling! And anyone who has a certain level of knowledge about web hosting would tell you this.

he speaks about overselling, not unlimited plans .i dont get how that plan is not overselling btw, in such a cheap priced plan ?

Greetings:

"All hosts are doing the same now."

I continue to be surprised by how many do not understand the definition of 100% of which "all" applies.

Not all hosts are overselling.

Thank you.

IMO, having these large, insane promises of space and specs is appealing to a certain segment of a customer base whichs wants something for nothing. Thus, generally, these clients will be running scripts that are resource hogs and also bandwidth hogs.

The result is that the server will be under strain. Other customers who may be average customers will suffer. That is the result of this insane overselling.... appealing to those who want something for nothing and then allowing their over-use to harm the speed and function of other customers on the server.

Bad business.

I just had a customer cancel. His explanation (direct quote): "Another host is selling me 1000 GB of space for the same price... You have to understand."
I've unfortunately lost a few customers due to that also over time. I've saved some also because I told them about huge plan hosts. In the end, I'll usually just say "good luck, we'll be here if they screw you and you want hosting." I know another host that has said "good luck, when they screw you and you come back to us, we'll say no."

But really, for those that leave for that reason, do you really want them as customers? They maybe the thorn in your back during the hectic times. At least my experience has shown the cheapskate customers are the hardest to please and get very demanding when things go wrong -- we all know they will sooner or later. Yes, losing customers is bad, but losing those customers is good in ways. ;)

I think the op will find that our morals are exactly where they have always been.

I can think of loads of hosts from here and other places that don't oversell, its just the "big" ones do.

In reality there are hosts that have a lot of clients and turnover millions a year that people don't see as "big".

Why ?

Because they don't oversell or have huge adverts or affiliate programs.

The simple fact is it is marketing and it works so it will continue until people vote with their wallets that they want reliability and support not numbers they can't use.

Yeah ! I just had a customer come crawl back to me from Dreamhost !! That feels good and gives me confidence in not overselling like crazy :)

Yeah ! I just had a customer come crawl back to me from Dreamhost !! That feels good and gives me confidence in not overselling like crazy :)
Kill the fatted calf and there be wine and dancing! :banana:

glace, I'm going to be really direct with you here. Who exactly do you think you are talking to???

When you say "But when you sell like 1000 or 10000 times what you have then fraud is the word to describe what you are doing." ... who do you think YOU is?? By not explaining who you are speaking to, you are speaking to everybody here. Including me. Including Utropic. Including DTH. And I, as well as every non-overselling host, take fair exception to your claims, because they are simply not true!!!

Excuse me, no, I am not selling 1,000 times what I have; and no, I am not engaged in any kind of fraud. :mad: Nor are many of the other reputable, stand-up companies who frequent this board and who are reading this thread.

So, STOP SLANDERING MY COMPANY.

There, is that clear enough for you??? :rolleyes:



I don't think he is talking to you.

His post quoted Host Color, so the way I read it, glace was referring to Host Color.

He seems to be simply following up on his opening post, which also referenced Host Color. No mention of you at all that I could see.

The anti oversellers on this topic just don't get it, and from the comments it seems you never will. Overselling IS NOT BAD if you can provide the services you say you will when the customer needs it. The problem is most smaller hosts think in terms of a few servers or less than 25 servers. When you don't have very many servers then those 3% of your clients that DO use a 500 gigs of space hurt you badly and costs you money. I will say it again here as I have said before. We have about 7% of our clients that we lose a substantial amount of money on. Do we boot them? Of course not. We view them as a cost of doing business. We are willing to eat it on those 7% to be able to market more attractive hosting plans to the other 93% of the hosting market. And guess what? It works! We add 50,000 new domains every month using this method. So don't tell me that overselling only works for the uneducated consumer that was "tricked" into buying a hosting plan. Do you honestly believe that all our clients are a bunch of hicks that don't understand what they are doing? Do you REALLY believe that all hosts that oversell can't provide a quality hosting experience for their users? I know that is true from some companies, but for those people arguing here that overselling hosts will soon "show their true colors" and block all services for their clients because they are too crowded - you're wrong. And frankly I hope you keep your attitudes towards overselling because it makes it that much easier for us to continue to clean up in the hosting market.

For those that cling to the "I WILL NEVER OVERSELL" mantra, I wish you good luck. You are going to need it!!

The anti oversellers on this topic just don't get it, and from the comments it seems you never will. Overselling IS NOT BAD if you can provide the services you say you will when the customer needs it. The problem is most smaller hosts think in terms of a few servers or less than 25 servers. When you don't have very many servers then those 3% of your clients that DO use a 500 gigs of space hurt you badly and costs you money. I will say it again here as I have said before. We have about 7% of our clients that we lose a substantial amount of money on. Do we boot them? Of course not. We view them as a cost of doing business. We are willing to eat it on those 7% to be able to market more attractive hosting plans to the other 93% of the hosting market. And guess what? It works! We add 50,000 new domains every month using this method. So don't tell me that overselling only works for the uneducated consumer that was "tricked" into buying a hosting plan. Do you honestly believe that all our clients are a bunch of hicks that don't understand what they are doing? Do you REALLY believe that all hosts that oversell can't provide a quality hosting experience for their users? I know that is true from some companies, but for those people arguing here that overselling hosts will soon "show their true colors" and block all services for their clients because they are too crowded - you're wrong. And frankly I hope you keep your attitudes towards overselling because it makes it that much easier for us to continue to clean up in the hosting market.

For those that cling to the "I WILL NEVER OVERSELL" mantra, I wish you good luck. You are going to need it!!Matt, I always appreciate your input; always spices things up. :)

I applaud extreme overselling combined with bottom of the barrel prices. It's what fuels our growth when your obviously "satisfied" customers come looking to us for stable and reliable hosting. And you host the not so important material for our clients that want to stream videos of their pets while still having a rock solid business hosting platform. ;)

I for one do not want you to stop this extreme overselling. It's what makes me what I am today. :D

- John C.
(undersold, overpriced, and still lovin' it 12 years later)

I find the first post insulting, when i created my first site i hosted it with a company who will remain nameless that were overselling big time, i got flatly cut off for using too much disc space, cause i was hosting some files there, but were all linked into the site and not streaming, i made sure of that so that i would not breach their ToS. I then went to a reseller and got crappy service, changed, got better service but slow servers so decided to run my own biz.

All our plans are set at a reasonable quota, ie the basic is 500mb disc and 5gb trans for €5.00 a month.

I dare you to say that im overselling

True words by mheaton.
Mathematically whether you offer 1000GB bw or 500GB bw you are not overselling.
You are overselling if you let a server kill itself from overusage. Simple.

. . . And you host the not so important material for our clients that want to stream videos of their pets while still having a rock solid business hosting platform. ;)
Yes, I've taken advantage of this situation several times. Thank you! :gthumb:

The message of this thread is precisely why I have found I really like the free hosting industry: you are very much constrained, from a financial standpoint. This forces you to keep your hosting packages very realistic!

The hosting market has always been marketing your services for what they're actually worth to the right people. If a company thinks they'll get "good" growth out of overselling and marketing to the budget crowd, well, hopefully they have a realistic business plan and aren't just acting out of desperation. I stick with catering to clients that I know my services suit best and aren't afraid to pay for them.

My moral values are still right here.

I find the first post insulting, when i created my first site i hosted it with a company who will remain nameless that were overselling big time, i got flatly cut off for using too much disc space, cause i was hosting some files there, but were all linked into the site and not streaming, i made sure of that so that i would not breach their ToS. I then went to a reseller and got crappy service, changed, got better service but slow servers so decided to run my own biz.

All our plans are set at a reasonable quota, ie the basic is 500mb disc and 5gb trans for €5.00 a month.

I dare you to say that im overselling
Just how was the first post directed at you, that you were insulted? Am I missing something here? :uhh:

Okay...so how many customers utilizing close to 100% of their 30 domains and 30 gigs for under ten dollars can you fit on one server?

Is it possible - Heck yeah !

Here is an example:

If you say have a Quad-Quad Core Xeon box (16 cores ) 32GB of Ram
and run that along with say the Norco 3U 12 esata cage (x 2 or 3)
each running 1TB drives --- then drive storage is not really a problem.
all running say in Raid

30 gigs x 30 clients = 900 gigs of space...

combine that with eAccelerator - throw mysql on its own boxes (SAN vs Nas of course... block vs. file ) and this is very possible.

Even more crazy is that you could technically do this with very little rack space needed -

IE - you could use around 42 U and give tons of space...
come to Philly - we can show you :-)

Interestingly enough we don't oversell. We are more of a managed services and SAAS platform... but its possible.

The anti oversellers on this topic just don't get it, and from the comments it seems you never will. Overselling IS NOT BAD if you can provide the services you say you will when the customer needs it. The problem is most smaller hosts think in terms of a few servers or less than 25 servers.

For those that cling to the "I WILL NEVER OVERSELL" mantra, I wish you good luck. You are going to need it!!

Well Said.
I guess the best thing here is clarification of overselling

Overselling = Selling what you cannot deliver.

In that case - we will never oversell.
However with over 45 of these monsters up and running - we don't run into that issue any longer...

The point i think of this thread at least for me is

If someone wants to keep overselling - or saying they are going to provide x and can only deliver y - then there are many of us here who are happy to have folks like you who cant deliver...

the clients come running - daily - all the time...

Overselling is more of a bait and switch I think

buy a Porsche get a Yugo ... thats bait and switch.

Funny - here @ 401 North Broad - and a few other carrier hotels we are in - I see guys who offer Dell Equipment... but what they are really offering their clients are junk self build $50 -$100 machines...

Yes they have dells - but not many of them...

That is bait and switch ... but clients pay - clients don't know the difference...
Does not make it right... of course.

If you say have a Quad-Quad Core Xeon box (16 cores ) 32GB of Ram
and run that along with say the Norco 3U 12 esata cage (x 2 or 3)
each running 1TB drives --- then drive storage is not really a problem.
all running say in Raid

30 gigs x 30 clients = 900 gigs of space...


And the revenue from each of those clients was, I believe, $9.49/month? So that's $284.70/month, and you've just built a $15,000 server, plus let's say $2500 for the external storage, MySQL server, etc. So you'll pay off your server, assuming no other expenses whatsoever (bandwidth, power, cooling, office space, techs, taxes, etc), in a little over 5 years. Good plan.

Kevin

Gosh darn it, I think I left them (my moral values) in the car this morning. I keep forgetting to bring them everywhere I go.

Give me a break. did you ever think may be you are looking in the wrong places?

And the revenue from each of those clients was, I believe, $9.49/month? So that's $284.70/month, and you've just built a $15,000 server, plus let's say $2500 for the external storage, MySQL server, etc. So you'll pay off your server, assuming no other expenses whatsoever (bandwidth, power, cooling, office space, techs, taxes, etc), in a little over 5 years. Good plan.
Kevin

LOL

No a good plan would be having more than 1 plan - marketing under multiple names. BTW - not sure why that server would cost $15K my suggestion is get a purchase plan with TechData and the other VAR orgs out there.

(we use TechData mainly due to their Sweedsboro NJ facility being onlyu 15 min down the road... we can grab most anything in minutes... and get it to the DC in under 1 hour!)

If your stuck buying indirect via resellers (MicroWarehouse, CDW, etc... )
OUCH

You can build these boxes for less -

I also do not provide $9.95/mo plans for what we provide... we are a SAAS company. I would hope someone would not go that route for only 30 clients...

Bottom line however - a growing company adding domains - could and most likely would invest into something similar.

Also - why place all the drives in there ?
ie - if you dont need 12TB of data - or all the processors - dont put them all into use.

Plan for growth - make sure you get the same processor codes etc -

Anetha - where in Jersey ? - we are in South / Voorhees / Cherry Hill area...

Just how was the first post directed at you, that you were insulted? Am I missing something here? :uhh:

ok, tell me how i said it was directed at me, cause it wasnt, and i never said it. I said that i felt insulted by the post, not that i was annoyed that it was directed at me.

In actual fact it was directed at ALL hosts in the industry here is a quote from the OP "Hostcolor.com = GIGAHOST !!!

Unfortunately I have to say that this is exactly what I am seeing EVERYWHERE now !! All hosts are doing the same now. All of you guys who complained about how bad overselling is...how it harms the customers. You are all doing it too now.
"