Where do you programmers post "real" offers. I am amazed at the nerve of some of the people here that expect something for nothing. Is there a place where us programmers can post a reasonable wage, and not have to compete with WHT's slave and kiddie labor pools?

I'm very interested to know myself where some good places are on the Internet where projects are offered that are backed by people who don't just want to pay pocket money to a young knowledgable children. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but is there anyone here who knows of better, more professional places - or does anyone have tips who have had success finding a constant supply of decent jobs over the Internet?

All the best,
- Scott.

Guru.com

Everywhere else I have looked there is stupid pricing. Allot of it comes form India where they can work much cheaper than here, it is now a global world and the only place really left to get higher paying contracts is local business.

Thanks for that URL Monte, and for making that very good point. And here after I've been against bombing India, I may have to change my mind. :)

I've heard that http://www.elance.com/ is good.

you guys might want to try www.bigsiteofforums.com site where we have a 'jobs discussion' area. Its free for everyone to post in there and once we have enough people coming in we could make specific forums with different categories of people so that all types of programmer can coexist peacefully.

also for specific communities we would offer to setup your own particular /private forum giving more focused discussion.

regards

nayeem

Sadly even with the thousands of forums and contractor sites there is really nowhere that people come and post jobs for "good" rates frequently. All the major sites listed above and this very forum have the occasional well priced contract but it is rare and usual limited to local people or a very specific niche programmer.

The real problem is that most people willing to post on a forum to a contractor aren’t looking to pay alot, probably don’t have a lot and more than often really don't get what a programmer should and does cost, hence why you see posts offering 50 bucks for something comparable to miva.

As a few other people mentioned, your real "best bet" for finding decent paying jobs is local companies, actual decent-sized companies that contract out for certain projects or through your private contacts. There is a good deal of good paying, interesting work left out there but it simply isn't something you will find much of on a message board or contractor site. Between the con artists, the people who under bid (and cant deliver) and influx of near free work from foreign countries the normal forum/elance style sites are almost useless.

Still, keep your eyes open... I've found a few good projects off these and other forums over the last few years (although years back I had far, far more). Also remember the economy is slow and that means less people looking to hire expand or build on to what they have.

Yeah, these cheap rates are killing programmers who don't live at home with mommy and daddy and have "real" bills to pay.

BTW wheres the NAAPP office?

I understand exactly what you mean Chris and thought I'd put a few comments in.

I completely agree with the suggestions of local companies for work. Through advertising and word of mouth is where quite a bit of our work comes from. This is because, I think, a lot of companies like to speak to a person face to face rather than an email and would much rather pay a considerably higher price for this.

The main reason I think though is that I can safely say there isn't any other places in the local area that compete and offer the same services nevermind the same price. When compared to online methods such as forums etc its like filling a whole street with similar companies all next door to each other with each one going lower and lower on price in order to compete.

I know I wouldn't be pleased if a company offering the same services opened up next door... let alone hundreds of them :)

In summary, thats what I see the forums as: hundreds of similar companies all living next door competing for the work in the best way they can see... on price. Imagine if there was a forum where people wanted work doing and you were the only one (or maybe one of just a few) that visit the forum.... this is comparable to local work.

Anyway, just my 2p :)

EDIT: Just to clarify, when I refer to "forums" I actually mean anywhere on the internet where work is requested such as specialist forums, elance and similar, etc.

Rentacoder.com

While it still has people with low rates (graphic design mainly), its great for programmers since they often have large scale projects.

Regards,
Jeff @ ePixel Media.

I know what you mean. I consider my rates to be quite low in comparison to professional coders (mainly because I am still building my skills) and watching forums and especially classified type sites, I see most jobs go for about a fifth of what I would even consider bargaining too. I often wonder how people can pull that off, but then I remember the cheap help coming from foreign countries and the script kiddies (even kiddier than me) and it all makes sense.

Moving forward, thanks for the suggestion on local companies. That does make a lot more sense. I will have to look into that type of deal, though my community is a bit small to be looking for web programmers.

i know and feel for all of the programmers and graphic designers. my cousin make way over $100/hr as a graphic designers, but she work for major catalog and ad company. if you a free lander, it's going to tough to find decent wage out there if you're not the best of the best.

as for cheap labor of knowledgable kid and foreign talents/labor, well, this is internet, we can't do a thing about it. i am a true believer in globally free-trade, however, free-trade does not apply to country that don't have strong laws and regulations to protect the workers such as: china, india, mexico, etc.

as for a newly start up company, like me, with a limited budget, its needs to find cheap source for services. if i need to get the website design, should i care if a knowledgable kid or foreign workers do the job for me? it's hard to say when money and principles come in head to head.

anyway, that my .02cents

Ah finally, a quality thread on WHT. :D

Sorry but I am too jaded with nickel & dime wannabees that add insult on top of that by having a self-bloated ego. As far as I am concerned, there is little actual work to be outsourced from WHT. I've gotten several small projects, and these that I worked on were either quick and dirty tasks - logos, banners, layouts, promos - or they evolved into a longer relationship; the latter is more desirable but RARE.

I've found that directly contacting companies who look like they need a makeover might lead to a nice chunky project; I've landed several major ones this way (in the $3k - $5k range).

Other than that, you might want to build a small free-lance sales team that would aggressively provide you with projects so that they make a percentage of the sale.

Elance is good but pretty much cut-throat for those that just start being listed; it takes several months to land a project simply because one's experience points are only reflected by the number of projects they've done with Elance - a nice Catch22 :D

This is probably one of the only threads that has any real quality here. I kind of feel a little cheated, because I went to uni, got a degree in Multimedia (similar to IT but more focus on web, digital video, sound and design). Before and even throughout I and many others were told there would be only about 40% of jobs filled by workers in Australia in IT. Learning institutions simply weren't putting out students fast enough. Then I finish my degree and none of it's true - at least in Aus. Recruitment agencies literally get 100 or so people applying to each such job and you're simply a lucky pick.

I'm wanting to move over to the UK as I hear the type of work I'm after is good over there, and also reasonable wages are paid (unlike over here). However it makes me a bit on edge trying to make such a big move without much money if things don't work out.

You have some good tips timechange, I might try looking for some companies. I took a look at Elance and it's a bit much to put up in a system that you don't even know will work out. I'm very suspicious and thought there would be some catch. Be good if one could choose for them to take a small percentage rather than sum. Still have to check Rentacoder.com out, maybe that'll better.

Anyway... there's my rant...

All the best,
- Scott.

Originally posted by chrisb
And here after I've been against bombing India, I may have to change my mind. :)
That comment is not humorous.

Perhaps you are too desensitized by TV violence.

An analogy that is closer to home:

You are having an argument over something of little consequence with a close family member. Do you joke about slitting their throat if you lose the argument?


I thought not.

mwatkins, your far-fetched comparisons are what's downright silly... and funny. *sigh* Leave it to you to try and turn a good informative thread into a flame war. Please stop.

You are having an argument over something of little consequence with a close family member. Do you joke about slitting their throat if you lose the argument? You mean my fiancee wasn't joking? :stickout

I wasn't joking...Thats why I am in jail dropping my soap.

There's nothing funny about bombing people. Its a simple point, really. I started nothing, it was your comment that began this.

With respect to the thread, develop a speciality and market to businesses directly, not on WHT.

If you are new to contracting out, you might consider signing on with a systems integrator or consultancy - not a body shop. Why? You'll get both experience in developing *and* more importantly in managing projects if you work for a consultancy. Every programmer needs some background in project management, ranging from estimation to specification writing to developing QA procedures to managing client expectations, etc.

Consultancies will, if you are the right sort of person, give you the opportunity to do more than simply churn out code - and software development is of course more than simply churning out code.

When later working as a freelancer you will appreciate the things you learned about estimating, contract management, scope management, expectation setting and client management, etc.

Even on small jobs having these skills make a difference, allow you to charge more and ensure that you will make the right sorts of decisions to protect yourself.

Join a consultancy, learn, and then go your own way.

my .02