I recently received a rather suspicious-looking email from a "company" called Spamcop that I've never heard of before. Spamcop informed me that a site I had developed for a client was allowing spam/UCE to go through the site.

A few things seem suspicious about the email to me:

1) There's a "TheCounter.com" counter in the email itself, and if I remember correctly, TheCounter.com does sell the email addresses of its subscribers to third parties as a means of financing the service. (You'd also think that someone who would have the technical ability to develop a spam blocking/reporting service would be able to develop their own email counter for it, wouldn't you?)

2) Upon visiting the site and looking everywhere that I could find that it had a spam report, the site I had developed for the client was nowhere to be found. I also used the "blacklist" feature on the site, and my client's site scored a 0.00 as far as sending spam out. So I know that's not the issue.

3) The heading said that the client and myself were receiving this email for "allowing" spam, which seemed to be a thinly veiled marketing plan to sell the same spam filter that would appear to have blocked the very same email that Spamcop was sending in the first place.

4) The email was sent to an email address that doesn't exist, nor is published anywhere, on the site. (I've got a catchall account set up and it went there.)

Are my suspicions correct? Is this guy just a spammer posing as a spam blocker, or is this actually legitimate?

Thanks.

To investigate the problem as thoroughly as I possibly could, I visited the site (

Be very careful or they will strangle you by the b@llz!

They are legit I'm afraid, and have way too much power over unsespecting newbes and experts. Do a search here - it is serious, especialy if you are not informed.

I got one of these now to, titled "This is your last warning ." They did not give me any info on who was spaming? I have 1000's of members.

How can I know?

This is an interview that was posted in a private humor forum I am a member of.

From today's Adbumb newsletter:

"AB" = AdBumb Interviewer
The rest are Julian's answers

Julian Haight is known to almost the whole Internet World as the SPAMCOP. He is loved by millions of Internet users who use his self-built system, built in 1988, to vent their frustration on spammers, and in turn hated by the spammers. Even "legitimate" email marketers have long hated him, claiming that his system goes to far in attacking valid opt-in email companies. His defense to that has always been that he based his system on the complaints of users, and valid opt-in emails just don't get complaints -- so there is nothing for them to really worry about.

He has long been the target of threats both online by marketers who see his automatic reporting system as a method of harassment of their businesses. Most recently he has been a target of a lawsuit by Opt-in Marketing Services , which claims that he and a list of other spam organizations have hurt their business and involved in deceptive business practices. According to a statement, SPAMCOP and the other organizations, " have their own set of rules which have no basis in law...They threaten to blacklist anyone they do not like or who has not worked out a "deal' with them. They hide their identities, refuse to give their true locations, or addresses, [and] generate fake complaints." Organizaitons like the National Interent Business Alliance have been founded specifically to fight Mr. Haight. "The SpamCop service doesn't have the intelligence to know who is an actual spammer. It is my belief that Mr. Haight is only interested in selling the service, and anybody that gets in the way gets mowed down and he could care less," says the head of the NIBA, Bobbette Madonna in a recent article.



In an interesting twist, the owner of Shopmystate, "Swami" Bob has pointed out that the automatic emails generated by SpamCop could in theory be considered spam themselves. So last year he sent them a cease and desist ask them to be removed from their list, never to be sent another SpamCop report again. He says that the fact that SPAMCOP sends out unsolicited notices to ISPs and emailers when someone reports through them, means that they are spamming. In theory, a "remove" message to SPAMCOP should prevent them from ever sending another one of these mails.

Several email marketers who identify themselves as opt-in marketers weighed in recently. Mike Warsinske, of HulaMedia a new email marketing company, sees that SpamCop provides a real service and a checks and balances for the systems, but that his system sometimes go awry. "He often acts as judge and jury based on a single complaint rather than a reasonable forum for dialog between legit direct emailers and those who often forget they have opted into email lists," says Warsinkse. "SpamCop simply assumes we harvest for names and mail. That is not the case, nor is it the least bit true. Our position is that we help free content providers on the net remain free to their users by monitizing the permission from the users to send them offers."

Chris Yau of eprizes hasn't had any bad problems with SpamCop, but still sees his services the same way. "Anybody can complain easily - eventhough they have indeed opted to receive these emails. There is a bad thing about this, because if they complain, it's really hard to do anything to help this person that can't find the unsubscribe link to unsubscribe." But he generally thinks that SpamCop does provide a good service that helps differentiate between the spammers and the valid email marketers Despite these complaints, the majority of Internet users love SpamCop and see it as a valuable service to prevent spam.

Mr. Haight declined to have any photos taken of him, and we actually couldn't find any on record.

Interview with Julian Haight below.

"What if I want to sue you (SpamCop)? First, it would be prudent to contact a lawyer to discuss the merits of such a case. Second, if you truly are planning a lawsuit, it would not be appropriate to further discuss the case, as your lawyer is likely to advise you. So have your lawyer contact admin@admin.spamcop.net once s/he understands the basics of the case." - SPAMCOP FAQ


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family members, collegues and parol officer.
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SPAM COP INTERVIEW

AB: You sign up for an email account, you are going to get spam. What are some of the most prevalent offers on the internet.
Loans, porn, weight loss. Your typical MLM stuff mostly.

AB: Do you think most spam comes from people harvesting addresses, or perhaps now it is from the reselling of what once was optin names?
I know I get a lot of spam that's suposedly opt-in, but comes to me because someone *else* signed me up for something. I also get a lot of clearly-harvested spam. So you might say it's "optin", but not confirmed.

AB: How to do you respond to people who say that spam is free speech?
It isn't. Free speech dosn't interfere with my ability to use my computers for what I bought them for. Spam does. When someone uses my email account against my wishes, that isn't free speach, that's intrusive marketing. Like junk fax, the spammer gets advertising supported by resources I paid for.

AB: Many optin email companies are complaining that they have been caught up in the assault on spam – that they are often found guilty based on complaints. How do you address this?
Many "optin" companies are spamming and don't want to admit it. Perhaps most of their mail is sent to people who request it, but a lot of it is sent to people who were misled when they signed up - or to people, like me, who were signed up by a thrird party against their will.

AB: How do you respond to people who basically say that anti-spam people have no life, and there are worse things in the world.
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. It may be true that some of 'us' have no life, but that dosn't excuse the behavior of the spammers. There certainly are worse things in the world, but that also dosn't excuse the lesser evil of spam. Killing is worse than stealing, but thieves should still go to jail.

AB: Should the advertisers who often have their affiliate offers spammed be held liable?
Certainly.

AB: Are they doing enough?
Some are, some aren't.

AB: Are there any examples of companies that are doing a good job at holding spammer liable for sending out their offers?
Probably, but none that I can point to - they wouldn't be on my radar, since I'm more concerned with the bad players.

AB: Are there any offers you know that are being sent by affiliates via spam, and the company whose product is being promoted isn’t doing anything to stop it, or is actively supporting it?
I don't really involve myself so much in the politics of the 'money chain'. So I'm not really sure who is being advertised by the spam I get - the spammers generally make it difficult to tell who they are advertising for. Dish network is one that comes to mind, but they seem to have cleaned up their act. IIRC, for a long time they took no responsiblity for the fraudulent claims and/or unethical marketing practices of their affiliates. I think that ended when the FTC made an example of them. But I'm not sure, you should fact check that one.

AB: What are some of the most innovative spams you’ve seen?
The spam I see isn't innovative, except in avoiding filters - and I don't generally read it anyway.



part 2 on the way

part 2 of spam cop interview


AB: What are methods that opt-in companies do to ensure that they aren’t spamming people? Do you support opt-in email marketing, or do you believe most commercial emails are spam?
- Use double opt-in. Make sure the person you're mailing is the one who opted in. This is the biggest thing companies can do to make sure they don't un-intentionally send spam. I cannot overemphasize the need for secure, confirmed, whatever-you-want-to-call it, true, opt-in.

- Accountability logging. Make sure opt-in confirmations indicate who generated them. That means an IP address and datestamp for the person who made the initial request, sent in the confirmation request, so the user can access it. If a confirmation goes unanswered, *never* send mail to that address again, not even if someone 'signs up' again with it. Send only one confirmation per submission, do not keep retrying.

- Proper bounce processing. Make sure any email addresses which have become innactive are removed from lists immediately - so that the next owner of the address isn't spammed. Also make sure you provide several different removal options which are easy to use and reliable.

- Follow up on all complaints. Don't assume the user is crazy when they tell you they are being spammed by you. Talk to them and get their side of the story. Perhaps there is a hole in your system you don't see. Read your postmaster email, etc. Basically, know all aspects of your operation and ensure they are working correctly. I'm not saying all complaints are 100% correct, but even when they aren't, it can sometimes point out problems in the way you manage user expecatations.

AB: Do you believe that any company has the right to resell the names & addresses of people when it’s in the terms and conditions?
There are a few limited cases where this might be OK, but generally, I think it's a bad idea. It should be made much more clear than a note in the terms - it should be printed in bold before the user signs up, and noted prominently in the confirmation. An example where this might be OK is something like monster.com, where the whole purpose of the site is to spread the user's contact information to others. Even then, the data is really only rented to others, and they always have to come back through monster.com to contact the individual. Most important, if I opt-in to such a system, I should be able to opt-out once and for all just as easilly. In order for that to work, the site really does have to keep the data secure, so that 'partners' don't have to be trusted to process all opt-outs. IOW, if you take my data, you have to be able to ensure that data won't be missused. The only reliable way to do that (that I can see) is to not share it in the first place.

Do you buy the argument that some privacy policies give the site the right to sell email address “unlimited times to third party companies?”
Technically, the privacy policy may state that they have that right, but I think it's very unwise for a company to have (or at least take advantage of) such a policy. That type of situation is ripe for abuse. Not to mention illegal in the UK.

AB: What can a company do to get off your black-list?
Either of two things: - Wait for the listing to expire - if they don't get reported for sending more spam, the listing will expire in at most 7 days. - Convince me or my deputies that the listing was erronious in the first place - that the person complaining is off their rocker or whatever.

I am not sympathetic to anyone claiming a mailing is opt-in if they don't do confirmed, secure opt-in. Mailers should be able to provide evidence of both initial opt-in and confirmation, including IP address and datestamp.

AB: Who are some of the worse spammers right now? Who are some of the worse > spammers that you know of that are masquerading as “optin” email companies?
No clue. I don't really keep track of individual spammers. SpamCop lists over 23,000 different spam sources, and I have no way to know which ones are connected to each other, or through whom. SpamCop is more concerned with the general cases, rather than specific offenders. Spammers don't put their name or company name on their spam.

AB: What can the advertising industry do to help prevent spam from creeping into our industry?
Support anti-spam groups and legislation. Distinguish itself through it's behavior. Legitimate mailers and the rest of internet users share a common enemy in spammers. Spammers spoil the would-be consumers for email. Many consumers who would otherwise be open to email marketing are turned off by all the spam, and tend to lump all marketing via email into the same category. Only by treating users with respect, and helping to fight over-agressive marketing, will marketers find a welcome place in users' inboxen.


We must crush our common enemy, the spammers. I may not like email marketing personally, but if it's done in a consentual way, I don't have to like it - since I have the choice to not participate. If marketers don't give us a choice, they will only further poison the already-poluted well of user's attention & good-will.

It's a hard step to take for someone who is not following best-practices, since it puts them at a disadvantage. But at the same time, someone who does follow the rules I've outlined will reap long term benefits that don't show up in day-to-day response-rates.

I have no hard evidence of it, but I feel that companies who abuse user's trust will gain only a temporary advantage. But that advantage will soon turn sour as users wise up and start revolting - reporting the irresponsible marketer to blacklists. Only companies who respect the wishes and expectations of users will prosper in the long term.

Spamming often seems to be the dying gasp of companies that are in financial trouble. So in a sense, sending spam has the 'stink of death'. Any time I get spam from a company, I have to wonder how much trouble they must be in to resort to such a low tactic - cashing in the good will of their customer base for a short-term boost in profit.

Better check the headers on the mail you received. Spamcop's had a joe job going on against them for the better part of two weeks now...

The probelm is that he does not state the user in this e-mial, so how the heck I know who spammed.

Originally posted by TheGAME1264
I recently received a rather suspicious-looking email from a "company" called Spamcop that I've never heard of before. Spamcop informed me that a site I had developed for a client was allowing spam/UCE to go through the site.

A few things seem suspicious about the email to me:

1) There's a "TheCounter.com" counter in the email itself, and if I remember correctly, TheCounter.com does sell the email addresses of its subscribers to third parties as a means of financing the service. (You'd also think that someone who would have the technical ability to develop a spam blocking/reporting service would be able to develop their own email counter for it, wouldn't you?)

2) Upon visiting the site and looking everywhere that I could find that it had a spam report, the site I had developed for the client was nowhere to be found. I also used the "blacklist" feature on the site, and my client's site scored a 0.00 as far as sending spam out. So I know that's not the issue.

3) The heading said that the client and myself were receiving this email for "allowing" spam, which seemed to be a thinly veiled marketing plan to sell the same spam filter that would appear to have blocked the very same email that Spamcop was sending in the first place.

4) The email was sent to an email address that doesn't exist, nor is published anywhere, on the site. (I've got a catchall account set up and it went there.)

Are my suspicions correct? Is this guy just a spammer posing as a spam blocker, or is this actually legitimate?

Thanks.

To investigate the problem as thoroughly as I possibly could, I visited the site (


What you got was a forgery.
Spamcop complaints do not:
1. Contain any counters (especially from Counter.com)
2. Cannot contain counters because reports are sent in Plain text not html format (only way a counter could work).
3. A typical Spamcop complaint or report looks like this:

Real spam, so I dont give a rats about whose information is in it (that means the spammers)


- SpamCop V1.3.3 -
This message is brief for your comfort. Please follow links for details.

http://spamcop.net/w3m?i=zpreviewz14ad22c721b0b0e5fcd4f3d0b8555992z
Email from 80.18.207.122 / Mon, 12 Aug 2002 07:55:41 -0700
> 80.18.207.122 is an open proxy, more information:
> http://spamcop.net/mky-proxies.html

Offending message:
Received: from mail.the_s_place.com ([80.18.207.122]) by mc2-f15.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905);
Mon, 12 Aug 2002 07:55:41 -0700
Message-ID: <xMTY_______________Oo_D@zXZctkWmmDCf5Qp>
From: gh@be_young_again.net <gh@be_young_again.net>
Bcc:
x
Subject: Turn back your body's biological clock
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:52:43 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Return-Path: gh@be_young_again.net
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Aug 2002 14:55:42.0835 (UTC) FILETIME=[54BC9430:01C24210]

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And all spamcop reports look like that. they are never sent from abuse@ or postmaster@ or hostmaster@ , but from numbered accts.

They have been joed for the last 2 weeks by a spammer who got spanked off their isp.

PLease read my post about it at: http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66730 It is teh reply from SpamCop that i got today about this issue.