Well,

These days everybody puts copyright signs into everything published on the web.

Let's put aside the good deeds and ethics of "not stealing other people's work".

Technically speaking, doesn't the person who claim copyright must have the necessary copyright documents/notices?

Technically speaking, what rights, what requirements does an individual have on claiming copyright by law? (with and without document/notice)

Some hosts I came across do not remove sites or bring down servers without a court order. But in order to obtain a court order you need a copyright notice don't you?

Sorry if this seems plain elementary. Coming from a person used to just putting copyright on just about everything. :D And I'm no lawyer.

Copyright signs are basically a deterrent from people stealing your work, even though your work is automatically protected as soon as you create it.

A person can do three things in court, they can try and get an injuction which would prevent that person from using it in the future, they can claim damages for the use of copyright material and they can also demand to get the copyrighted materials back.

I will emphasis, that there are no registers for copyright though, many people think you need to pay to register it etc

Copyright signs are basically a deterrent from people stealing your work, even though your work is automatically protected as soon as you create it.

A person can do three things in court, they can try and get an injuction which would prevent that person from using it in the future, they can claim damages for the use of copyright material and they can also demand to get the copyrighted materials back.

I will emphasis, that there are no registers for copyright though, many people think you need to pay to register it etc

Proving that the work is yours originally can be the tough part though.

Yeh of course, so the best thing to do is try and settle it outside court, perhaps try and see if the IPC will get involved.

I print out an entire copy of my copyright materials once a year
I then place them into a sealed envelope and send them to myself through the postal system
On arrival, there is a date stamp, and I place the envelope into storage without breaking the seal
This is an accepted method in the UK, and I am sure it is accepted worldwide

Each website page has the internationally accepted copyright format embedded into the source code and it is visible on most pages
I have succesfully challenged three copyright breaches, all resolved within 28 days

If you want to make it easy to claim the site is your in court, get a copyright. But yes you do need proof of the copyright should you go to court. You can't just put up a copyright on your site and have it stand up in court. Also, when copyrighting sites, the content up on your site the date you copyright the site is what is covered under the copyright. Revisions, especially large ones, will not be covered unless you get them copyrighted as well. This is why you often see websites or books with multiple copyright years.

Of course if their is no doubt the work is yours you could probably manage not getting a copyright. When you see copyright on a site, it's usually just a deterrent, since you really don't know if it's legit or not.

The actually grounds that hold up in court very which is why a copyright doesn't hurt. I would only take content down with a court order or DMCA notice myself.

m8internet, I like that method, I think getting a notable witness to acknowledge the date and work is good as well.

I print out an entire copy of my copyright materials once a year
I then place them into a sealed envelope and send them to myself through the postal system
On arrival, there is a date stamp, and I place the envelope into storage without breaking the seal
This is an accepted method in the UK, and I am sure it is accepted worldwide

Each website page has the internationally accepted copyright format embedded into the source code and it is visible on most pages
I have succesfully challenged three copyright breaches, all resolved within 28 days

This will work in the UK, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work in Australia and the US. Although my area of expertise is only in UK law so might be better getting an Aussi or an American lawyer to confirm this.

I believe the method I use works for any copyright material which can be printed
This includes websites, as the source code and its final appearance can both be printed, along with images
Although the content of a MySQL database is also copyright, I was advised this was not necessary unless your website uses dynamic content, in which case a backup copy on CD or DVD along with the PHP source code would be sufficient

One point I missed was that the letter MUST be sent by some form of recorded or registered delivery method
Here in the UK that is nice and easy with Royal Mail Second Class RECORDED delivery, with a cost of about £5.00 due to the size and weight of the envelope and its contents
This method is also accepted by the Berne Convention which covers all international law
It's great what you find out when you have a few hours (to waste!)

One final mention should be the international standard on copyright notices
The copyright symbol is NOT required, but if used MUST be directly before the year
The format to use is :
copyright space year space copyright holders name, All Rights Reserved
examples
copyright 2008 m8internet, All Rights Reserved
copyright © 2008 m8internet, All Rights Reserved

Very informative answers, thanks.

All this talk only raises more questions for me.

So it seems there are different levels to go about protecting your copyright, simply a copyright sign isn't enough - for the simple reason that you need hard evidence that you own the copyright, and the fact that different people/hosts require different level of proof to have any action taken. (For some, just the copyright sign may be enough, for some you need some proof, for some only a court order is acceptable).

In the case of a court order, arn't there restricting limitations with international cases which make the process of fighting for your copyright near impossible, especially for individuals like me who would rather not spend a lot of money into law workers?

While at university we had a presentation about copyright law from someone from the UK Intellectal Property Office and she told us that you don't need to put the copyright symbol or anything on any copyrighted works as copyright is automatic. Anything you write/design is already copyrighted. You then have the full say on how it's used.

However, it is best to specifically write your usage/distribution policy for a website as the web is a very open place where you're already distributing your copyrighted material for free and people can easily get the impression that you gave it them so they can use it for whatever they like.

As said earlier in this thread the accepted UK method of protecting copyright is to send it to yourself in the postal system. In this presentation it was recommended that you send it to a lawyer specialising in copyright law if you have the resources to do so.

Sending your work in an envelope to yourself via postal mail is sometimes called "poor man's copyright", because it is a cheap and still effective way.

If I recall correctly, this method is valid in most countries, not just in UK. You are not actually copyrighting the work, but you create a hard evidence for court if you ever need.

I print out an entire copy of my copyright materials once a year
I then place them into a sealed envelope and send them to myself through the postal system
On arrival, there is a date stamp, and I place the envelope into storage without breaking the seal
This is an accepted method in the UK, and I am sure it is accepted worldwide

Each website page has the internationally accepted copyright format embedded into the source code and it is visible on most pages
I have succesfully challenged three copyright breaches, all resolved within 28 days


This should work in any country that datemarks the post, however you can also give all your infomation to your bank and for a small fee they will keep it for you in a seald box, they also keep the date and time posted so if you have to go to court you just pull out that box and the envolope you sent to yourself and hopefully you will win :)

Funny... anyplace which talks about copyright usually mentions the poor man's copyright as being worthless (in the US)...

Myth #15: If I create a work, I can establish proof of copyright by mailing a copy of it to myself.
Fact: This is a silly idea that is surprisingly pervasive. Sometimes called the "poor man's copyright," the idea is for the author to mail a copy of the work to himself. Upon receipt, the author leaves the envelope unopened to establish proof of an authorship date (by way of the post mark). Doing this proves only one thing: that the author mailed an envelope on a certain date. Mailing a copy of your work to yourself has no effect on the copyright status of the work. Copyright attaches the moment you fix the work in a tangible medium; nothing more is necessary to establish copyright protection. A copy of the work sealed in a self-mailed envelope has no evidentiary value.

From US Gov.
I’ve heard about a “poor man’s copyright.” What is it?
The practice of sending a copy of your own work to yourself is sometimes called a “poor man’s copyright.” There is no provision in the copyright law regarding any such type of protection, and it is not a substitute for registration.

I print out an entire copy of my copyright materials once a year
I then place them into a sealed envelope and send them to myself through the postal system
On arrival, there is a date stamp, and I place the envelope into storage without breaking the seal
This is an accepted method in the UK, and I am sure it is accepted worldwide

Each website page has the internationally accepted copyright format embedded into the source code and it is visible on most pages
I have succesfully challenged three copyright breaches, all resolved within 28 days


This is absolutely worthless. Speak to an attorney who specializes in intellectual property and you'll understand. We actually had a situation come up where this method was disputed and it absolutely will not hold up in court.

/me runs off to mail several empty/unsealed envelopes to herself for future "copyright" use. ;)

--Tina

Very informative answers, thanks.

All this talk only raises more questions for me.

So it seems there are different levels to go about protecting your copyright, simply a copyright sign isn't enough - for the simple reason that you need hard evidence that you own the copyright, and the fact that different people/hosts require different level of proof to have any action taken. (For some, just the copyright sign may be enough, for some you need some proof, for some only a court order is acceptable).

In the case of a court order, arn't there restricting limitations with international cases which make the process of fighting for your copyright near impossible, especially for individuals like me who would rather not spend a lot of money into law workers?

As I said above, the copyright sign is just a deterrent, it's like the "TM" on logos it doesn't need to be there to make it a trademark, it's just advisable.

Copyright on an international prospect is a huge problem because say you are from London and you have a document which is under your copyright. If someone in New York was to use this work without your permission, you would need to get an injunction at their local court. This then causes problems, because the expenses you can claim back on a court hearing may go above that of the permitted amount. For example in Scotland you can claim £75 maximum where the sum being sued is between £200-750.

That is why I'm saying court should always be a last resort!

This is absolutely worthless. Speak to an attorney who specializes in intellectual property and you'll understand. We actually had a situation come up where this method was disputed and it absolutely will not hold up in court.

/me runs off to mail several empty/unsealed envelopes to herself for future "copyright" use. ;)

--Tina

Tina,

This system will work within the UK, it may also be used as a deterent in the future debates. So it's a wise idea, that will cost you very little.

Scott

Tina,

This system will work within the UK, it may also be used as a deterent in the future debates. So it's a wise idea, that will cost you very little.

Scott


Why would the UK allow such an obviously flawed method? Are you sure???

--Tina

Don't confuse copyright with Registered Trade Marks
The R or TM only covers a symbol, logo, artwork, or specific use of words
The fees in the UK are also very high!

Thankfully here in the UK, copyright is obtained as soon as you create a unique creative work
Proving it can be difficult, but UK courts accept sealed, dated envelopes
I should know, I have done it three times!
The costs are also very low, at between £45.00 and £90.00
The difficult bit is proving that the person or company that used your copyright caused some form of financial loss, otherwise you may as well write-off the court costs!

Tiny,

It really deppends, there is no official passage which states if it will be used or not. Although as m8internet has said, it has worked for him.

I'm not confusing Trademarks and copyright, I've been in the legal business long enough to understand the difference, I'm purely using it as an example.

Scott

Why would the UK allow such an obviously flawed method? Are you sure???



If you see my earlier post we had someone representing the UK Intellectual Property Office http://www.ipo.gov.uk (http://www.ipo.gov.uk/) recommend this method to us. She did however advise us to send the data to a IP professional if possible though to make it more secure. Also, if there is a dispute ALWAYS open a package such as this in the presence of the IP professional who will be representing you.

I'm interested in where you believe the flaw in this system is? It's a way of determining that at a particular date you had material before the person you are in dispute with. There will be issues if you don't follow the process carefully but apart from that I can't see any problems and at least in the UK neither can the courts :)

edit:

if you see the section on registration on ipo.gov.uk it states that there is no official register in the UK and also questions...
Is the registration likely to be better than the evidence you can create for yourself by sending a copy of the work to yourself by Special Delivery post and not opening the envelope upon its return?

The reason I've raised this issue is because recently I had several complaints I had to send out to a couple of datacenters about designs I purchased unique and custom.

There was a reply from a specific datacenter which I will not name, who told me "Ok yes we can kind of see you own the design but we cannot take a server offline without a court order".

The datacenter is located in the US and I am in the UK. So to be honest I was sort of stumped. The international area in the copyright laws still seem very unclear to me. It sounds like a very expensive and complicated option to be able to obtain a "court order" internationally, let alone nationally.

That case was thankfully resolved however, but in the future what can individuals like me do about such cases where a breaching site will not be removed without a court order submitted to the DC?

Thanks for the responses by the way, some nice inputs clearing my knowledge about this area somewhat.

Tina, I think what he's saying is that you can't just send yourself an empty envelope or unseal it after it arrives. You'd take it to court with the time stamp and unseal it at that point proving the date of your mailing.

I don't trust our postal system more than I do a 5 year old alone in a candy store, so I'd recommend always consulting an attorney specializing in trademark & copyright protection if your unique content is very important to you.

I think the issue is that you can send yourself an envelope with nothing in it (unsealed) and then later put your stuff in and seal it when it arrives.

Things that will help establish intellectual property rights over a trademark or logo would be dated invoices, print records of any adverts that you ran. Even archive.org in this day and age could probably be used.

Web sites are interesting, because a website is essentially the mark-up of standardised code, then interpreted and rendered by the browser. The actual code of a website (xHTML, HTML, CSS) may not actually be copyrightable since it is all very standard, you would have to prove your code is absolutely original... which obviously isn't possible. I'm not sure whether websites/HTML code has been tested as copyrightable in court yet, so there are no precedents. In my mind, the concept of websites could be covered under an amendment/similar law to the industrial design rights... Where website code is established as a blueprint/plan for the website.

What is definitely copyrightable are the images used in your website. The final thing is that the overall layout of the website can be covered under the laws of "passing off". Of course, taking intellectual property seriously is only necessary if you have the means to back it up - i.e. the will to take someone to court over it. Having a solicitor send someone infringing on your IP a rather stern letter (cease and desist/whatever) is always very helpful, and can often resolves many minor disputes well before it goes to court.

There are special security seal envelopes available, they cost about £1.50 each
When you send these by Royal Mail RECORDED delivery the seal is checked before posting, and in most cases the label is placed across the seal
I have been using this method for at least 15 years now

^ Useful amendment to your original post in that case. :)

Unable to edit old posts, hence the clarification

Sent an eMail to my solicitors (thats what we call our legal people in Scotland) office this morning

Their reply confirms that the process is still accepted in UK courts

One thing I missed out, which they correctly pointed out, is the process if you are sending this to a solicitors (or other legal representative)
Place the sealed envelope with the copyright material (which you have already sent through the postal system) inside a second postal envelope
That way when they open up there are instructions advising them NOT to open up the sealed envelope!
Obviously if you are sending this to yourself, then you don't need to do that